N3 Drafting Ediquette?

Tap your brake, and I mean just tap, while you hold you gas all the way down. Not good to make contact in the corners. Then bump draft down the straightaway or slingshot around coming out of the curve. Sondog

What do I do? I'm gonna be banned soon. :) I have a pretty good setup that will let me run with a lead pack in the draft. But once I catch up to them, I usually end up hitting somebody. So what do I do when I get a run on a fellow hugging the low line in a turn? If I bump him he may spin. If I cut low he'll probably get turned when my car lurches back up off the apron. If I let off the gas momentarily, I risk losing the draft and with my tallll gearing, I might not be able to catch back up. If I go high, I also risk losing posisitions and the draft. Any ideas? SuperDaveOsbor...er dave henrie

Practice, and learn the art of drafting without passing. The car behind is always going to be faster than the car leading the draft. You just gotta learn how to run second for a while until the right moment, then make your pass.

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> What do I do? I'm gonna be banned soon. :) I have a pretty good >setup that will let me run with a lead pack in the draft. But once I >catch up to them, I usually end up hitting somebody. So what do I do >when I get a run on a fellow hugging the low line in a turn? > If I bump him he may spin. If I cut low he'll probably get turned >when my car lurches back up off the apron. If I let off the gas >momentarily, I risk losing the draft and with my tallll gearing, I might >not be able to catch back up. If I go high, I also risk losing >posisitions and the draft. Any ideas? >SuperDaveOsbor...er >dave henrie

You will not lose the draft if you let off the gas for a split second. If you are drafting behind someone, you will always be faster than that person, even in the corner. Just let off the gas a tiny bit so you dont hit them, then use the straights to pass them low.

You need to learn how to lift and not lose the draft. It takes some practice. Drafting is an art, and that gas pedal is your paint brush.

Don't lift on the gas. Just drag the brake a bit while staying on the gas. Jim

I'll go along with the guys suggesting that you lift the gas. Just stay behind the leader for as long as it takes for him to make a mistake. He may get rattled, normal race traffic may interfere or he may just plain blow it. The important thing is patience. Just because you catch them does not mean you must immediately pass :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

either way lifting gas or tapping brake works, personally I lift when entering the turn which is where you usually have the most speed after drafting down a straight. Another thing I occasionally do is go wide through a turn w/o lifting which allows you to slow a little, but then your leaving you position open for someone to pass you.

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> Don't lift on the gas. Just drag the brake a bit while staying on the >gas. > Jim >> What do I do? I'm gonna be banned soon. :) I have a pretty good >> setup that will let me run with a lead pack in the draft. But once I >> catch up to them, I usually end up hitting somebody. So what do I do >> when I get a run on a fellow hugging the low line in a turn? >> If I bump him he may spin. If I cut low he'll probably get turned >> when my car lurches back up off the apron. If I let off the gas >> momentarily, I risk losing the draft and with my tallll gearing, I >might >> not be able to catch back up. If I go high, I also risk losing >> posisitions and the draft. Any ideas? >> SuperDaveOsbor...er >> dave henrie

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> I'll go along with the guys suggesting that you lift the gas. Just > stay behind the leader for as long as it takes for him to make > a mistake. He may get rattled, normal race traffic may interfere > or he may just plain blow it. The important thing is patience. > Just because you catch them does not mean you must > immediately pass :-) > --

I second, er third, uh fifth that. I have CH pro pedals and I find I can't just tap the brakes when traveling at 195+ mph with the gas floored, it has not effect. It seems I can push the brake pedal halfway down with no effect, but beyond that it locks up. This is only at 190+ mph with full throttle. At slower speeds or less throttle, the tapping does seem to have an effect. So in short I learned how to lift for a split second at Tally, and stay in the draft. Other things: it's very hard to pass the leader on the outside of the backstretch. If he/she stays low to middle of track, just get behind and wait, or maybe someone will come up from behind and you can pass the leader together. Also, what about bump drafting? Does anyone give warning before doing it? Or is it just expected (on a straightaway at least; no bump drafting in turns!) I've bumped plenty without wrecking anyone, and we both pick up speed, but I've only been bumped a couple times. I've always wondered if I do it too many times will I end up with damage, or will the car ahead of me get damaged, even though the bumps are very light. Is there a cumulative effect here? Draft racing is something else. Very mental - not much physical. Continuous concentration and tiny movements, plus wondering what your opponents are thinking. Patience. -- Doug Appleyard "Bound to cover just a little more ground" Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

The WC drivers leave the gas on the floor and ride the brake slightly when they're in a tight draft. I'm not sure of the electronics of our foot pedals, but if yours are on a single axis like mine, I'm guessing that lifting the gas 10% and depressing the brake 10% have exactly the same effect. I feel like I have better control with a little brake than with lifting the gas. (I do the same on yellow flag restarts, because I don't want to hit the guy in front, but I don't want to fall back off him either.)

Well, if the leader is running the low line all around the track, you're going to have a tough time passing him. Then you'll need everyone behind you to work with you on the outside and leave the leader*** out all alone. Racer X Veteran Sim Racer Victory Lane- http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/1423/

Use the Force, Dave... When you start racing at Superspeedways, you will find a completely new ball game compared to normal racing. It's clearly not an easy task. Patience, you must learn patience, as Yoda would say. Try to stay around 0.2-0.1 seconds behind your drafting partner. Yes partner, since you need to know who's good at drafting, who's not, and position yourself in the correct position. You can easily gain 2positions each lap if you want to, but that is not always the best thing. Only the last lap counts. Try to position yourself in the top 5 or so, and watch out for breakaways from the top 3. Stay alert to every move around you. It always depend on how many laps you have left in a race. If it's the last lap, then don't fear trying a more difficult move to pass him. Yes I sometimes went in the grass to pass one of them blockers. Or try to group with another person behind you and pass him high. If he blocks high, slingshot him down on the low groove. Don't fear bumping him if he really blocks. It will be his fault if he crashes. Ah. I suggest you try to develop a setup that will make you run a steady low line in the turns. It's really something that every experienced dega driver has I'll say. The last thing they want is to go up the track when you are the low driver in a 2-wide situation. Try to loosen up your setup, it will help. Gearing is very easy in N3. You should never have your RPM over 8000. Anything higher is unecessary since they run with a restrictor plate remember. Don't fear lifting off the gas a little. Btw in N3, taping the gas a little equals lifting the gas. The old Papyrus game engine can't model the usage of acceleration and braking at the same time. You won't loose the draft if you lift the correct way. People do it all the time. I lift all the time, a dozen times each laps normally! Let's hope this helped a little ;) Oh finally, watch the multi.rpl replay that Papyrus made in Nascar Racing 3. It's helpful to get experience of drafting visually. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Single or double-axis, it doesn't change anything in Nascar Racing 3, as the old Papyrus game engine can't support the usage of gas and brake at the same time. So your point above is right, but the numbers are a little different on a double axis, since the relations are not fully linear IIRC. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

How strange. I have home made pedals (actually foot switches). Braking and accelerating at the same time, works just fine for me. Must be the drivers for your pedals rather than the game. Jim > > The WC drivers leave the gas on the floor and ride the brake slightly when > > they're in a tight draft. I'm not sure of the electronics of our foot > > pedals, but if yours are on a single axis like mine, I'm guessing that > > lifting the gas 10% and depressing the brake 10% have exactly the same > > effect. > Single or double-axis, it doesn't change anything in Nascar Racing 3, as the > old Papyrus game engine can't support the usage of gas and brake at the same > time. So your point above is right, but the numbers are a little different

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> on a double axis, since the relations are not fully linear IIRC. > -- > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't

realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

This is how I drive the long races on the speedways. I put a book on the accelerator, if I need to slow, I drag the brake a bit. For pit stops and yellows, I remove the book. It works, trust me. Jim > > How strange. I have home made pedals (actually foot switches). Braking > > and accelerating at the same time, works just fine for me. Must be the > > drivers for your pedals rather than the game. > Please this has been a fact for years. Re-read what I said. The Papyrus > _old_ game engine does not support the usage of acceleration and braking at > the same time. It's a fact. What you see, even with separate axis, is not > like GPL. > Smash the brake pedal at 100%, and try to rev'up. You won't be able, > because the old game engine can't model usage of both at the same time.

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> Hope it helps ;) > -- > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't

realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

There's a lot of things in N3 that are not like GPL. For starters, the colors are not all screwed up on my video card (Voodoo 3) GPL has bright blue and yellow where the groove should be, also has translucent walls on the horizon that extend to the sky behind the trees. Plus N3 doesn't have that annoying sound. (Little smacking sounds), tire sound perhaps? Annoying as hell. The cold tire performance in GPL is akin to Indy Car 1. You have to drive like you're on ice till you get heat in your tires. Also N3 doesn't crash my computer regularly ala GPL. The GPL demo lasted all of one week on my hard drive. I was so impressed with the N3 demo, I went out and bought the full game. I for one am glad N3 is not like GPL. Jim > > How strange. I have home made pedals (actually foot switches). Braking > > and accelerating at the same time, works just fine for me. Must be the > > drivers for your pedals rather than the game. > Please this has been a fact for years. Re-read what I said. The Papyrus > _old_ game engine does not support the usage of acceleration and braking at > the same time. It's a fact. What you see, even with separate axis, is not > like GPL. > Smash the brake pedal at 100%, and try to rev'up. You won't be able, > because the old game engine can't model usage of both at the same time.

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> Hope it helps ;) > -- > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't

realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

"What you are doing with 2) is > simply braking at about 40% of your potential braking power (sinceit's not > fully linear Which was the point of this thread, in case you missed it. By applying the brake whilst holding the throttle, the braking effect is reduced, allowing a finer adjustment of speed, whilst in the draft :) Thank you for making my point. Jim

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ULFA4.75318$[email hidden]... > > LOL... I don't want to out-smart you. Think whatever you think. Doyou > want me to give you information by Papyrus employees about that totell you

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> your wrong? > > What you do is simply let go the acceleration when you tap the brake. > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>

Although, you seem very confident in your knowledge, I have found this confidence does not always reflect true knowledge in newsgroups, none the less I performed the following test. Disclaimer: This is with my pedals, which are, granted, home made. Your results may differ. Coming down the front stretch at Daytona, applying brakes fully at the start/finish line. 1) Releasing accelerator and then applying brake. Stopped fully, just past the end of the pit wall. 2) Applying brake fully, while holding accelerator down. Came to an almost full stop about halfway through turn two, at which time the car went into a smoky burn out and burned a couple of doughnuts. Perhaps the Papy employee who spoke to you, was not as knowledgeable as he led you to believe? JIm

Please this has been a fact for years. Re-read what I said. The Papyrus _old_ game engine does not support the usage of acceleration and braking at the same time. It's a fact. What you see, even with separate axis, is not like GPL. Smash the brake pedal at 100%, and try to rev'up. You won't be able, because the old game engine can't model usage of both at the same time. Hope it helps ;) -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

LOL... I don't want to out-smart you. Think whatever you think. Do you want me to give you information by Papyrus employees about that to tell you your wrong? What you do is simply let go the acceleration when you tap the brake. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

> "Don Jennings" wrote > > I'm guessing that > > lifting the gas 10% and depressing the brake 10% have exactly the same > > effect. >ymenard responded... > Single or double-axis, it doesn't change anything in Nascar Racing 3, asthe > old Papyrus game engine can't support the usage of gas and brake at thesame > time. So your point above is right, but the numbers are a littledifferent > on a double axis, since the relations are not fully linear IIRC. This didn't sound right, so I tested your theory last night at California. (I have an Interact V3 wheel with pedals on a single axis.) If I come off Turn 2 at 175mph and hold the gas to the floor, adding brake pedal stops my acceleration once I have it depressed about half-way. If I depress the brake about 75% (with the gas still full on), the car will start slowing down. So I'm not sure what you mean about N3 not supporting use of gas and brake at the same time. The same is true on restarts, while the gas is depressed about 1/3 to maintain the pace speed, depressing the brake about 10% will quickly drop the speed a couple mph. I use this method because when I let off the gas a little, I don't immediately re-find the exact throttle position I had before and I end up with a slight lurching effect. By using the brake, my throttle position doesn't change and I have better control over the distance between me and the car in front. The "lurching" effect of letting off the gas and getting back on it is a much bigger problem in GPL, where leaning the car forward or back too much can put you off the track. If I encounter slightly slower traffic in the corner, I feel like I have much better control of the car by adding a little brake than I do by getting out of and into the gas.

Sure, what your doing works, but driving needs to be and very quickly becomes instinctive. And the instincts your programming into yourself are going to be a bitch to overcome when and if you ever go to dual axis. [email hidden] (Don Jennings) wrote in <viNA4.148$[email hidden]>:

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>This didn't sound right, so I tested your theory last night at California. >(I have an Interact V3 wheel with pedals on a single axis.) If I come off >Turn 2 at 175mph and hold the gas to the floor, adding brake pedal stops my >acceleration once I have it depressed about half-way. If I depress the >brake about 75% (with the gas still full on), the car will start slowing >down. So I'm not sure what you mean about N3 not supporting use of gas and >brake at the same time.

Your slowing not because the game sees the application of brake but because it sees a reduction in throttle, and compression braking is slowing your car.

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> >The same is true on restarts, while the gas is depressed about 1/3 to >maintain the pace speed, depressing the brake about 10% will quickly drop >the speed a couple mph. I use this method because when I let off the gas a >little, I don't immediately re-find the exact throttle position I had before >and I end up with a slight lurching effect. By using the brake, my throttle >position doesn't change and I have better control over the distance between >me and the car in front. > >The "lurching" effect of letting off the gas and getting back on it is a >much bigger problem in GPL, where leaning the car forward or back too much >can put you off the track. If I encounter slightly slower traffic in the >corner, I feel like I have much better control of the car by adding a little >brake than I do by getting out of and into the gas.

Just know that your NOT adding brake, the game only sees it as a reduction of throttle. Smooth throttle control is KEY to gpl, single or dual axis pedals. To progress in gpl I'd suggest focusing on control the throttle with the throttle. -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C.

<[email hidden]> wrote > Although, you seem very confident in your knowledge, I have found > this confidence does not always reflect true knowledge in newsgroups, > none the less I performed the following test. Can somebody please back me up here? Randy? Eric? Michael? Richard? anybody? ;-) I totally know and understand what you have wrote and that I've snipped. It's true, but that means nothing about the point that Im trying to reach. There is no simulated effect of acceleration and brake at the same time in Papyrus's old game engine, whatever you have a single or seperate axis. They only tried at their best to simulate the effect, and only with the new game engine in GPL have they achieved it. What you are doing with 2) is simply braking at about 40% of your potential braking power (since it's not fully linear). When you finally stop on the track, you will of course start spinning the tyres, because Papyrus has a canned effect under 30mph for that. Single axis : 100%brake <---------------o-------------->100%gas the "o" is neutral position, the same as if you have no feet on any pedal at that moment. (0% gas, 0% brake). If per example you are at 100% gas and press your brake pedal halfway, you will find yourself at 50% of acceleration Double axis : 100% brake <--------------o o---------------->100% gas Double axis does the same effect. You just have seperate axis, and there is a calculation that regroups them in the software. The only difference is that there is a couple of different effects and linearity is not fully there like a single axis. If you are 100% gas and you press your brake pedal, you will probably feel nothing until you are halfway of your pedal travel. Then you will start having the brake effect, since the linearity made you go in the braking zone (not anymore the acceleration zone). -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

ymenard wrote ... > There is no simulated effect of acceleration and brake at the same time in > Papyrus's old game engine, whatever you have a single or seperate axis. > Single axis : > > 100%brake <---------------o-------------->100%gas > the "o" is neutral position, the same as if you have no feet on any pedalat > that moment. (0% gas, 0% brake). If per example you are at 100% gas and > press your brake pedal halfway, you will find yourself at 50% of > acceleration I guess we're saying the same thing. In your example above, when I'm at 100% gas and I want to slow down, I could either let off the gas halfway or press the brake halfway. Either movement will have the effect of bringing us to 50% acceleration on the scale above. So the choice of which you do can be based on other factors. In my case, I know by feel where I want the throttle, and if I need to temporarily slow down, I can leave the throttle where it is and apply as much brake as I need. Once I'm done with whatever made me want to slow down, I can release the brake and be right where I need to be. When you said Papy didn't simulate acceleration and brake at the same time, I thought you were saying that the brake would have no effect until the gas was fully released, and vice versa. This clearly isn't the case.

Exactly my point, said better than I did. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8b13kb$e5o$[email hidden]...

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> > "What you are doing with 2) is > > simply braking at about 40% of your potential braking power (since > it's not > > fully linear > > Which was the point of this thread, in case you missed it. By applying > the brake whilst holding the throttle, the braking effect is reduced, > allowing a finer adjustment of speed, whilst in the draft :) > > Thank you for making my point. > > Jim > >

On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 12:50:45 -0600, <[email hidden]> wrote in message <8b37hr$3qv$[email hidden]> :

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> Unfortunately, the denizens of R.A.S seem hung up admitting that any >other sim than thier beloved GPL, might be capable of this. > > Quite frankly, I don't car how pedal usage in N3 compares to GPL, >Cart Precision Racing or Whacky Wheels, for that matter. > > My grandkids all thought Whacky Wheels was God's gift to racing sims, >but I would not bore everyone by rubbing everyone's face in it, on every >post made to this group. > > To me it smacks of, MY FAVORITE SIM RuLeZ. YOUR'S SuCkS DooD.

No need to be so defensive Jim. I've nothing against N3 (other than being so similar to N2 I've gotten a little bored with it - whilst TEN was around I did far more racing with N2 than any other sim, including GPL). I'm just trying to find out what's happenning. Anyway, I reinstalled N3 & did a bit of testing. With accelerator on joystick 2 Y axis, brake on joystick 1 Y axis, I get the following results (at Dega, each time braking / lifting at the s/f line) Lift, no braking - comes to rest in turn 4 Lift, brake - comes to rest just after 76 sign before turn 1 No lift, brake - comes to rest (other than canned donuts) just after 76 sign before turn 1 So - I hope you agree - that with this particular setup it appears that only one input is being processed. Bearing in mind your earlier reference to your pedals being "foot switches", I then configured the gas & brake to the wheel's buttons and in this case if I don't lift whilst braking the car comes to a rest (canned donuts) at the exit of turn 2. This matches what you reported. In this configuration, the sim has to do a certain amount of pre-processing of the inputs or the car would be completely undrivable. Presumably when both are pressed it pre-processes them to provide about 50% braking, a sensible solution. I still have found no evidence that N3's physics engine (which after all is essentially the same one as N2, N1, ICR2 & ICR1 - all excellent sims btw <g>) can actually process dual inputs as dual inputs. That's not a value judgement on this or any other sim - just experimental evidence. Cheers, Richard

If I remember correctly, I originally had them wired as joystick 2 x and y axis. I did not like the way they worked, in particular the movement seemed too great and fatigue was a real factor in long 3 hour races. I removed the potentiometers and replaced them with switches that have a micrometer style adjustment on them. I don't have the pinouts at home, but I think they are wired for joystick buttons 3 and 4. Not only did this give me infinite adjustment on pedal movement, but the actuating pressure was greatly reduced so it was very comfortable on long races. True, if I used these for GPL they would not be as effective as potentiometers wired as true axis, but in N3 I have found no detrimental effects, plus I got the additional effect of reduced braking (judging the distances, I would guess in the 25 to 30% range). If I can find the pin out at work, I'll post it, though frankly I would rather work at finishing my wheel. On another note, the "canned cycle" you spoke of does react to external physical stimuli. I.E. slope of track, surface texture, etc. I tend to look at it as a "cool feature". My guess would be, it has been labeled as a "canned cycle" by the GPL freaks in R.A.S. Jim

On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 23:05:00 GMT, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message <wYTA4.46931$[email hidden]> : >Can somebody please back me up here? Randy? Eric? Michael? Richard? >anybody? ;-) I think you've both reached the conclusion that you are talking about slightly different things - and are therefore both correct ;-) Following is based on observation only (so may be incorrect <g>) and repeats much that has already been said - just trying to provide a reasonably definitive explanation. With single axis pedals, simultaneously applying both brake and pedal will result in a single electrical input reaching the sim (any sim) and can only be interpreted as such. When at full throttle, applying the brake produces a similar effect to lifting - the exact characteristics will depend on how the potentiometers are balanced and for some pedals it might provide finer control to lift, in others finer adjustment can be made by tapping the brake. With pedals on separate axes, two electrical inputs reach the sim and it is now up to the program to interpret these. Sims such as GPL and GP2 take both inputs and feed them into the physics engine - i.e. they allow true simultaneous application and, hence, better car control. Sims like N3 pre-process the inputs before they reach the physics engine. In N3's case then for all pedals I've tried, if you have the throttle pressed then it completely ignores the brake input until it reaches a certain value - at which point it ignores the throttle input (the only exception I've noted is with the canned wheel spin routine below 25mph). However, some people have reported different results (e.g. Jim in this thread) which presumably means that it depends on something a bit more - e.g. the behaviour might be different depending on which actual axes are being used. Cheers, Richard

On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:29:12 -0600, <[email hidden]> wrote in message <8b0ht1$4rv$[email hidden]> : > Disclaimer: This is with my pedals, which are, granted, home made. >Your results may differ. Jim, you said earlier that your pedals were "foot switches". By this, do you mean that they are digital (on/off) or are they analogue? If the latter, could you please say what axes they are wired to - the behaviour you describe isn't what I get (at least from memory - don't have N3 installed right now). Cheers, Richard

"Richard Walker" <> With pedals on separate axes, two electrical inputs reach the sim and it is > now up to the program to interpret these. Sims such as GPL and GP2take > both inputs and feed them into the physics engine - i.e. they allowtrue > simultaneous application and, hence, better car control. Sims like N3 > pre-process the inputs before they reach the physics engine. In N3'scase > then for all pedals I've tried, if you have the throttle pressed thenit > completely ignores the brake input until it reaches a certain value -at > which point it ignores the throttle input (the only exception I'venoted is > with the canned wheel spin routine below 25mph). However, some peoplehave > reported different results (e.g. Jim in this thread) which presumablymeans > that it depends on something a bit more - e.g. the behaviour might be > different depending on which actual axes are being used. > I tried the test at Daytona again, this time simply lifting off the gas at the start finish line. The car came to a stop near the exit of turn 4, nearly a lap later. So we have, Lifting off the gas and braking stops just past the end of pit wall. Braking while holding the gas, stopping near the center of turn two. Lifting off the gas, stopping near the exit of turn 4. Obviously N3 can see both brake and accelerator at the same time, if the pedals are configured in a certain way. Unfortunately, the denizens of R.A.S seem hung up admitting that any other sim than thier beloved GPL, might be capable of this. Quite frankly, I don't car how pedal usage in N3 compares to GPL, Cart Precision Racing or Whacky Wheels, for that matter. My grandkids all thought Whacky Wheels was God's gift to racing sims, but I would not bore everyone by rubbing everyone's face in it, on every post made to this group. To me it smacks of, MY FAVORITE SIM RuLeZ. YOUR'S SuCkS DooD. Jim

"Don Jennings" <[email hidden]> wrote > When you said Papy didn't simulate acceleration and brake at the sametime, > I thought you were saying that the brake would have no effect until thegas > was fully released, and vice versa. This clearly isn't the case. Well yes, they try to simulate it to the maximum that the old game engine can do. You can't realistically push the brake fully, then think that you can rev-up the engine with the throttle. But having a seperate axis won't give you much advantage than the fraction of a second it takes to go from 100-0% neutral compared to 100%-0% gas and then going into braking mode. You can't do any throttle action at the same time than doing a braking action. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

"Richard Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote > I still have found no evidence that N3's physics engine (which after allis > essentially the same one as N2, N1, ICR2 & ICR1 - all excellent sims btw > <g>) can actually process dual inputs as dual inputs. That's not a value > judgement on this or any other sim - just experimental evidence. Thanks for that great explication Richard. It was simply the point I tried to reach, without putting down N3 at all. Anybody in the N3 community knows that Im probably one of the most known N3 online drivers, and appreciate every moment of it. Probably the person did not know my views of N3. I just stated that the action, even if there was one, is not modeled correctly like per example a simulator like GPL models it. I do remember somebody by Papyrus a couple of years ago implying that the old game engine could not process dual inputs at the same time correctly. I shall look in Deja. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

<[email hidden]> wrote > On another note, the "canned cycle" you spoke of does react to > external physical stimuli. I.E. slope of track, surface texture, etc. I > tend to look at it as a "cool feature". My guess would be, it has been > labeled as a "canned cycle" by the GPL freaks in R.A.S. Please stop saying anything that you can't back up or have no idea about. This feature was implemented and tagged WELL before GPL even appeared in press releases by Papyrus. Geeze, I suggest you learn a little about our NG before saying such things. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 16:20:08 -0600, <[email hidden]> wrote in message <8b3jq3$vsu$[email hidden]> : > On another note, the "canned cycle" you spoke of does react to >external physical stimuli. I.E. slope of track, surface texture, etc. I >tend to look at it as a "cool feature". My guess would be, it has been >labeled as a "canned cycle" by the GPL freaks in R.A.S. I think you'll find it was considered canned long before anyone even knew that GPL might be produced <g>. Anything which depends on specific cases is usually considered "canned". In N2 (and then N3) if the speed is below 25mph and the throttle is greater than a certain amount then you get wheelspin - doesn't matter what gear you are in or if the brakes are applied. It was introduced by Papy so as to enable large fields, otherwise it would be impossible to get out of a pit stall - the other option would have been to have much larger wheel locks which wouldn't work with joysticks or sim wheels which have limited movement (incidentally, GPL has a "canned" effect where below about 60mph wheel lock gets increased to allow tight turns at low speeds - the patch allowed this to be turned off but it wasn't optional in the box release). One cool thing with the donuts in N3 is that you can create drawings with perfect circles ;-)) Cheers, Richard

writes: So, any tips for DOING that? I finally figured out how to set my TSW2mod for dual-axis operation. I haven't used it that way yet, though. I never figured out left-foot braking...<sigh> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

You already know what I'm going to say, don't you ? Like everybody I ask the guys that are faster than me "how do you do it ?", and of course they always answer "practice". I say, "I'm sick of fricking practicing, I want secrets!". Unfortunately there are no secrets. Just start driving with two feet, put in mucho time, and eventually it will start happening for you. For me and most people there are plateaus of improvment in gpl, and for sure, work equals results. Are you doing the work Eldred ? [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote in <[email hidden]>:

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>In article <8EFB81655dscurlock@news>, [email hidden] (Don >Scurlock) writes: > >>Sure, what your doing works, but driving needs to be and very >>quickly becomes >> >>instinctive. And the instincts your programming into yourself are >>going to be a >>bitch to overcome when and if you ever go to dual axis. > >So, any tips for DOING that? I finally figured out how to set my >TSW2mod for dual-axis operation. I haven't used it that way yet, >though. I never figured out left-foot braking...<sigh> > >Eldred

-- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C.

<[email hidden]> wrote:

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> There's a lot of things in N3 that are not like GPL. For starters, >the colors are not all screwed up on my video card (Voodoo 3) GPL has >bright blue and yellow where the groove should be, also has translucent >walls on the horizon that extend to the sky behind the trees. Plus N3 >doesn't have that annoying sound. (Little smacking sounds), tire sound >perhaps? Annoying as hell. The cold tire performance in GPL is akin to >Indy Car 1. You have to drive like you're on ice till you get heat in >your tires. >Also N3 doesn't crash my computer regularly ala GPL. > The GPL demo lasted all of one week on my hard drive. I was so >impressed with the N3 demo, I went out and bought the full game. > I for one am glad N3 is not like GPL. > > Jim

The graphics problems are fixed in the 1.2 patch. If you want to try the demo, turn on "Limit texture memory to 2MB" in the Glide section of the 3dfx Tweaks. --Jon

In article <8F0579529dscurlock@news>, [email hidden] (Don Scurlock) writes:

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>You already know what I'm going to say, don't you ? >Like everybody I ask the guys that are faster than me "how do you do >it ?", and of course they always answer "practice". I say, "I'm sick >of fricking practicing, I want secrets!". Unfortunately there are no >secrets. Just start driving with two feet, put in mucho time, and >eventually it will start happening for you. For me and most people >there are plateaus of improvment in gpl, and for sure, work equals >results. Are you doing the work Eldred ?

As much as I have time for... Since I do other things outside of GPL (work, etc) I don't have the time that some people have to run countless laps. I wish that racing games had some sort of 'counter' for laps run. Then I could see *exactly* how my quantity of laps run compares to the hotshoes...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.