Papyrus/Sierra my Q&A period

That is nothing... The Nascar Racing 1999 is advertised as a Windows game complete with full multiplay capability. After you install the game you get a message that says "oh shit if you wanted to do multiplayer you must use the DOS executable." Similarly this is not mentioned anywhere on the box's system requirements. Papy is well known to do false advertising MHO. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com > I called Sierra/Papyrus today and inquired about the "misleading > advertising" on the N3 box. This is what I was told by Leah of customer > are aware of the claim the box makes however the reason for this is the box > was made before the rights to the tracks were secured, we were expecting to > have all the tracks included but could not secure the rights to all of the > tracks". She went on to say "we did not have time to change the box". I told > her I thought that was no excuse for having misleading advertising on the > box and asked if they were making any effort to look after this matter to > which she replied with a frank "no". I said thank you and gave her my name > and address (and number in case she was ever in Toronto and wanted to go for > a drink) and said goodbye. > Now THATS CUSTOMER SERVICE! Wow, am I not lucky to be able to buy stuff off > them? I'm going to send them a fruit basket and thank you card for allowing > me to be a customer as well as a blank cheque incase they need some fun > money. > On another note I bought this book today but a 2 of the 30 chapters were > missing. Oh well I guess I will get it in the books add-on pack coming out > in a few month's. > Just thought you would all like to know. > Al Stiff

I called Sierra/Papyrus today and inquired about the "misleading advertising" on the N3 box. This is what I was told by Leah of customer are aware of the claim the box makes however the reason for this is the box was made before the rights to the tracks were secured, we were expecting to have all the tracks included but could not secure the rights to all of the tracks". She went on to say "we did not have time to change the box". I told her I thought that was no excuse for having misleading advertising on the box and asked if they were making any effort to look after this matter to which she replied with a frank "no". I said thank you and gave her my name and address (and number in case she was ever in Toronto and wanted to go for a drink) and said goodbye. Now THATS CUSTOMER SERVICE! Wow, am I not lucky to be able to buy stuff off them? I'm going to send them a fruit basket and thank you card for allowing me to be a customer as well as a blank cheque incase they need some fun money. On another note I bought this book today but a 2 of the 30 chapters were missing. Oh well I guess I will get it in the books add-on pack coming out in a few month's. Just thought you would all like to know. Al Stiff

I don't understand all this... why is everyone griping about the claim on the N3 box NOW... maybe I wasn't paying attention, but I don't remember nearly as much "hey they said ALL tracks and it doesn't have ALL of them..." as there's been in the last week.... ~am i missing the point, here...?

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>I called Sierra/Papyrus today and inquired about the "misleading >advertising" on the N3 box. This is what I was told by Leah of customer >are aware of the claim the box makes however the reason for this is the box >was made before the rights to the tracks were secured, we were expecting to >have all the tracks included but could not secure the rights to all of the >tracks". She went on to say "we did not have time to change the box". I told >her I thought that was no excuse for having misleading advertising on the >box and asked if they were making any effort to look after this matter to >which she replied with a frank "no". I said thank you and gave her my name >and address (and number in case she was ever in Toronto and wanted to go for >a drink) and said goodbye. >Now THATS CUSTOMER SERVICE! Wow, am I not lucky to be able to buy stuff off >them? I'm going to send them a fruit basket and thank you card for allowing >me to be a customer as well as a blank cheque incase they need some fun >money. >On another note I bought this book today but a 2 of the 30 chapters were >missing. Oh well I guess I will get it in the books add-on pack coming out >in a few month's. >Just thought you would all like to know. >Al Stiff

Well Benjamin, I did buy the game knowing full well what tracks were and were not on it thanks to this NG. However not all consumers are part of this NG and some unsuspecting guy is going to get hosed thinking certain tracks are included when they are not. We have laws here in Canada protecting consumers from corporations that make false claims in ads or on packages as I'm sure they do in the USA (where were they when I bought my space bike!). The thing that I find appalling is that they know full well what is on the box and are doing squat about fixing it. It is very apparent that they could care less if they***off the customer or mislead them. Mistakes happen but they seem content to just leave it like that. I like the game and I have the demo CD and every other Papyrus sim (so I have Pocono too). I could care less about the tracks not being in it because I have them all and my game is complete (lots of great WC2000 cars from around the web too!). Not everyone has the benefit of downloading it from a web site or even knows about the demo CD. This just makes me think that they need to give the head a shake and it also scares me to think that they handle customer relations this way. It shows what they think of the consumer that pays them. Al Stiff (Blowing lots of smoke!)

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> I don't understand all this... why is everyone griping about the claim > on the N3 box NOW... maybe I wasn't paying attention, but I don't > remember nearly as much "hey they said ALL tracks and it doesn't have > ALL of them..." as there's been in the last week.... > ~am i missing the point, here...? > >I called Sierra/Papyrus today and inquired about the "misleading > >advertising" on the N3 box. This is what I was told by Leah of customer

"we > >are aware of the claim the box makes however the reason for this is the box > >was made before the rights to the tracks were secured, we were expecting to > >have all the tracks included but could not secure the rights to all of the > >tracks". She went on to say "we did not have time to change the box". I told > >her I thought that was no excuse for having misleading advertising on the > >box and asked if they were making any effort to look after this matter to > >which she replied with a frank "no". I said thank you and gave her my name > >and address (and number in case she was ever in Toronto and wanted to go for > >a drink) and said goodbye. > >Now THATS CUSTOMER SERVICE! Wow, am I not lucky to be able to buy stuff off > >them? I'm going to send them a fruit basket and thank you card for allowing > >me to be a customer as well as a blank cheque incase they need some fun > >money. > >On another note I bought this book today but a 2 of the 30 chapters were > >missing. Oh well I guess I will get it in the books add-on pack coming out > >in a few month's. > >Just thought you would all like to know. > >Al Stiff

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>Subject: Papyrus/Sierra my Q&A period >Date: 02/22/2000 8:32 PM Eastern Standard Time >I called Sierra/Papyrus today and inquired about the "misleading >advertising" on the N3 box. This is what I was told by Leah of customer >are aware of the claim the box makes however the reason for this is the box >was made before the rights to the tracks were secured, we were expecting to >have all the tracks included but could not secure the rights to all of the >tracks". She went on to say "we did not have time to change the box". I told >her I thought that was no excuse for having misleading advertising on the >box and asked if they were making any effort to look after this matter to >which she replied with a frank "no". I said thank you and gave her my name >and address (and number in case she was ever in Toronto and wanted to go for >a drink) and said goodbye. >Now THATS CUSTOMER SERVICE! Wow, am I not lucky to be able to buy stuff off >them? I'm going to send them a fruit basket and thank you card for allowing >me to be a customer as well as a blank cheque incase they need some fun >money. >On another note I bought this book today but a 2 of the 30 chapters were >missing. Oh well I guess I will get it in the books add-on pack coming out >in a few month's. >Just thought you would all like to know. >Al Stiff

OK AL & BTW you will only be able to get the two missing chapters by attenting a booksellers convention in Hoboken or ordering from the Hoboken Bookseelers Gift Shop (or their web site at www.skrewdya.com) Or you could get someone to Xrox them for you so you can paste them into your book....... :( (Don't use NO***in E-mail) You think in the storm we've found the eye of the calm.....Bill Mallonnee, Vigilantes Of Love

Ever since time began ( it seems ), people have been bashing Papyrus, Sierra for this that and the other. Claims are made drawing comparisons between Simulations and Books, sims and phone service, sims and any other standard product or service. I respectfully disagree Software is a different beast. Deal with it. This is not malicious advertising or some *** to keep us down. This is all a matter of licensing, logistics and plain old hard cash. "Twas always thus and so shall it ever be.... People moaned and whined at TEN for providing poor customer service, about rankings not working all the itme, about this that and the other. End result? It's gone an now people are whining about WON and how crappy they find it. Now, I agree that TEN was not perfect, and that Sierra could/should try harder to obtain important licenses, but you know what, life goes on. We are all participants in an industry that is still in its adolescence. If you don't like it, you are not required to participate. I know, I know, Sierra/Papyrus owes you EVERYTHING because you've bought $400 worth of software, $1,000's of dollars of hardwre, etc. That and $1.25 will get you a cup a coffee these days, so get over it. I am NOT saying "don't post it here". By all means, post away, let's discuss, fight, argue, laugh, etc. But I AM saying, you need to re-evaluate your expectations or else you're in for a world of hurt while you wait for the "perfect" sim. -/- Walk Walker > On another note I bought this book today but a 2 of the 30 chapters were > missing. Oh well I guess I will get it in the books add-on pack coming out > in a few month's.

Hey Walk I got some land for sale in FLA are you interested? Let me know, I can sell it to you REAL cheap Al Stiff > Ever since time began ( it seems ), people have been bashing Papyrus, Sierra

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> for this that and the other. Claims are made drawing comparisons between > Simulations and Books, sims and phone service, sims and any other standard > product or service. I respectfully disagree > Software is a different beast. Deal with it. This is not malicious > advertising or some *** to keep us down. This is all a matter of > licensing, logistics and plain old hard cash. "Twas always thus and so

shall > it ever be.... > People moaned and whined at TEN for providing poor customer service, about > rankings not working all the itme, about this that and the other. End > result? It's gone an now people are whining about WON and how crappy they > find it. Now, I agree that TEN was not perfect, and that Sierra could/should > try harder to obtain important licenses, but you know what, life goes on. > We are all participants in an industry that is still in its adolescence. If > you don't like it, you are not required to participate. I know, I know, > Sierra/Papyrus owes you EVERYTHING because you've bought $400 worth of > software, $1,000's of dollars of hardwre, etc. That and $1.25 will get you a > cup a coffee these days, so get over it. > I am NOT saying "don't post it here". By all means, post away, let's > discuss, fight, argue, laugh, etc. But I AM saying, you need to re-evaluate

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> your expectations or else you're in for a world of hurt while you wait for > the "perfect" sim. > -/- Walk Walker > > On another note I bought this book today but a 2 of the 30 chapters were > > missing. Oh well I guess I will get it in the books add-on pack coming

out > > in a few month's.

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>Well Benjamin, I did buy the game knowing full well what tracks were and >were not on it thanks to this NG. However not all consumers are part of >this NG and some unsuspecting guy is going to get hosed thinking certain >tracks are included when they are not. >We have laws here in Canada protecting consumers from corporations that make >false claims in ads or on packages as I'm sure they do in the USA (where >were they when I bought my space bike!).

Stiff, does the Sierra "30 day money back" gaurantee apply in Canada? "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

Walk is right, but *** theorists don't like to hear that. Scott PA-Scott PowerSims.com -- Scott B. Husted ICQ# 4395450

Yes it is a big *** (as I motion my Bhen Wha balls in my hand)! The whole lot of you are against me! Your all a bunch of disrespectful officers! Your all against me as well as the rest of the world (I'm very delusional right now). Now I know we have a quart of strawberries missing so I have this bucket of sand and it will represent the strawberries........... Al (Cpt. Queeg) Stiff "I'm a very hurt person and I need help, please send me a fruit basket and get well soon card"

> <snipped> > Software is a different beast. Deal with it. This is not malicious > advertising or some *** to keep us down. This is all a matter of > licensing, logistics and plain old hard cash. "Twas always thus and so shall > it ever be.... Wrong. Software is no different than any other consumer product when it comes to issues of false advertising and poor customer service. What you discribe is totalitarian corporate state where consumers have no rights and no say in the conduct of business. While that seems functionally true much of the time, the broader reality is we live in an economic democrocy called free enterprise where business suceeds by satisfying the customer.. Consumers not only vote with their dollars, but have the right to be protected from fraud. Ah, the common arguement against democracy and for dictatorship. Marty

Like I said the day the Daytona demo rumors started... I thought the r.a.s. citizens had matured and learned to deal with the business side of the *** industry, but there is always some people who don't understand, don't have the knowledge or are just simple-minded and think that the situation is in any way the fault of Papyrus. Still, we all know it's Brian's fault ;-D -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

*PLONK*

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> > Walk is right, but *** theorists don't like to hear that. > Like I said the day the Daytona demo rumors started... > I thought the r.a.s. citizens had matured and learned to deal with the > business side of the *** industry, but there is always some people who > don't understand, don't have the knowledge or are just simple-minded and > think that the situation is in any way the fault of Papyrus. > Still, we all know it's Brian's fault ;-D > -- > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super ***, but they don't

realise > how hard it is to be just a reglar ***.

Now THAT's funny!!!! ROTFLMAO!!! Gunner

"WHANK"

I don't think this has anything to do with me being a sucker. I think it's more a question of realistic expectations. I've been a newsgroup *** for nearly 4 years now and I've just learned to deal with it. No amount of complaining by all 2-300 "***" sim-racers changes anything. I guess it's just different viewpoints. I can still understand where you're coming from, and I'm not denying that you have just cause to be frustrated, I have just found it easier to lay back and remain calm. Now, if the cable company tries to***me......that's a whole 'nuther story...<g> -/-WW

<<Ever since time began ( it seems ), people have been bashing Papyrus, Sierra for this that and the other. Claims are made drawing comparisons between Simulations and Books, sims and phone service, sims and any other standard product or service. I respectfully disagree Software is a different beast. Deal with it. This is not malicious advertising or some conspiracy to keep us down. This is all a matter of licensing, logistics and plain old hard cash. "Twas always thus and so shall it ever be.... People moaned and whined at TEN for providing poor customer service, about rankings not working all the itme, about this that and the other. End result? It's gone an now people are whining about WON and how crappy they find it. Now, I agree that TEN was not perfect, and that Sierra could/should try harder to obtain important licenses, but you know what, life goes on. We are all participants in an industry that is still in its adolescence. If you don't like it, you are not required to participate. I know, I know, Sierra/Papyrus owes you EVERYTHING because you've bought $400 worth of software, $1,000's of dollars of hardwre, etc. That and $1.25 will get you a cup a coffee these days, so get over it. I am NOT saying "don't post it here". By all means, post away, let's discuss, fight, argue, laugh, etc. But I AM saying, you need to re-evaluate your expectations or else you're in for a world of hurt while you wait for the "perfect" sim.>> Amen to that! If I really and truly thought that papy was intentionally going out of it's way to rip me off, I would make a complaint. But it just so happens I believe them. For those of you who bought the sim, would it had made a difference if the box said "almost all?" Probably not. Just my .02 Mike

Get a Life......(and an add on funnybone pack)

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>Subject: Re: Papyrus/Sierra my Q&A period >Date: 02/23/2000 10:41 AM Eastern Standard Time >Ever since time began ( it seems ), people have been bashing Papyrus, Sierra >for this that and the other. Claims are made drawing comparisons between >Simulations and Books, sims and phone service, sims and any other standard >product or service. I respectfully disagree >Software is a different beast. Deal with it. This is not malicious >advertising or some *** to keep us down. This is all a matter of >licensing, logistics and plain old hard cash. "Twas always thus and so shall >it ever be.... >People moaned and whined at TEN for providing poor customer service, about >rankings not working all the itme, about this that and the other. End >result? It's gone an now people are whining about WON and how crappy they >find it. Now, I agree that TEN was not perfect, and that Sierra could/should >try harder to obtain important licenses, but you know what, life goes on. >We are all participants in an industry that is still in its adolescence. If >you don't like it, you are not required to participate. I know, I know, >Sierra/Papyrus owes you EVERYTHING because you've bought $400 worth of >software, $1,000's of dollars of hardwre, etc. That and $1.25 will get you a >cup a coffee these days, so get over it. >I am NOT saying "don't post it here". By all means, post away, let's >discuss, fight, argue, laugh, etc. But I AM saying, you need to re-evaluate >your expectations or else you're in for a world of hurt while you wait for >the "perfect" sim. >-/- Walk Walker >> On another note I bought this book today but a 2 of the 30 chapters were >> missing. Oh well I guess I will get it in the books add-on pack coming out >> in a few month's.

(Don't use NO***in E-mail) You think in the storm we've found the eye of the calm.....Bill Mallonnee, Vigilantes Of Love

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>Subject: Re: Papyrus/Sierra my Q&A period >Date: 02/23/2000 4:46 PM Eastern Standard Time >> Walk is right, but *** theorists don't like to hear that. >Like I said the day the Daytona demo rumors started... >I thought the r.a.s. citizens had matured and learned to deal with the >business side of the *** industry, but there is always some people who >don't understand, don't have the knowledge or are just simple-minded and >think that the situation is in any way the fault of Papyrus. >Still, we all know it's Brian's fault ;-D

SNIP>>>> Noooooo it's Saaaatannnn's fault..... (Don't use NO***in E-mail) You think in the storm we've found the eye of the calm.....Bill Mallonnee, Vigilantes Of Love

I think you've got it wrong-way-'round: while it may seem like reverse-psychology, I believe the complaint is NOT that Sierra is less than forthcoming in their promotional information (though that's probably the only way to attack the situation, from a "consumer protection" standpoint)), the REAL problem is that Daytona is being made available to a VERY limited number of people, in the hope that they'll buy the full sim after grokking the demo. To add theoretical insult to hypothetical injury, it is easy to construe this situation as a snub to Sierra's "installed base" of previous (and in many cases, long-term) customers. While I'm sure no one has any argument with Sierra getting more market share for N3 -- THAT's good for everyone -- it is pretty difficult to accept that this track is NOT being made available generally, especially to those who've already bought N3. Unless it's a licensing problem with ISC, it doesn't make much business sense -- I'm sure current N3 owners would be more than willing to pay for Daytona. BB Wozmon wrote:

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> If I really and truly thought that papy was intentionally going > out of it's way to rip me off, I would make a complaint. But it just so > happens I believe them. > For those of you who bought the sim, would it had made a difference if the box > said "almost all?" Probably not. > > Just my .02 > Mike