Ideas for Nascar 4

Have Papyrus disclosed any information about what features they intend to include in Nascar 4. Presuming they do use the GPL engine - and there's now no valid reason why they shouldn't - they could include features which would tritely stand out above the rest of the Nascar series and making most other racing titles seem like toasted brownies. Lying awake in bed last night I jotted down a few ideas which I thought they should include in Nascar 4. Feel free to let me know what you think. a) "Driver hands, steering wheel and gear stick" - We already have this in Grand Prix Legends, so it's certainly possible for them to include it. Best of all it would put an end to the ugly static ***pit we've had in each previous Nascar title. 2) "Fully working pit crew" - I'm sure many will agree that this is something which could, and perhaps should, have been included in Grand Prix Legends. No Nascar race is complete without pit stops, often due to damage rather than strategy. The 2D images of the pit crew in Nascar 3 make pitting a rather unrealistic and boring job. 3) "Realistic weather effects " Not all races can take place in the perfect sunshine. Whilst there is an option to enduce wind effects in Nascar 3, it's no very good, and besides the car performing a little worse when you're heading into the wind, there's not much else. Rainfall, clouds and a slight fog would all help add to the atmosphere. These weather effects certainly helped make TOCA and TOCA 2 more fun. 4) "Damaged car parts remain on track" - When cars in Nascar 3 are damaged and pieces fall off, they usually disappear a few moments later, and whilst it's true that in real racing the yellow flag and pace car would come out to slow down the remaining cars so that safety guards could remove the dangerous items, I still wouldn't mind approaching a pile-up knowing that I had to avoid debris as well as the damaged cars. 5) "Damage to walls" - What happens when you hit a wall in N3? Besides the damage you receive, only a very unrealistic looking 'spark' appears to tell you you're scraping the wall. Nascar Revolution went one better here, by removing paint from your car and keeping it on the wall instead. Scraping paint off like this looks and feels much better, but still isn't quite good enough. What about actual damage to the walls as well? Who can forget Nigel Mansell's CART accident which put a hole through the outside concrete wall? (I mention that one not because it was very good, but because it's the only one I have on video) It's great to pass a corner in N3 and see the tyre tracks from where you or another car previously spun. This would be taking it to the next level. 6) "Fully working tractor" - In N3, if you blow your engine and can't make it back to the pit, your spotter tells you that the tow truck is on the way. Of course, we don't actually see it, cos' just like in real life it's invisible. Well, I'm sure this is what Papyrus would like us to believe, but it could certainly be done better. Show me the tractor! Show me the tractor! Show me the tractor! - putting on a very 'Jerry Maguire' style voice right now... 7) "Detailed car damage" - TOCA 2 had the windows smashing fully in a serious enough collision, and GPL had engines bleeding oil and even fire. What does N3 give us? A few bits of litter left behind and a puff of smoke of your blow the engine. The new wheel-spin smoke was a nice touch, but not enough of it was used and it didn't remain in the air long enough to be 'Days of Thunder' like, which Papy said it would be. A trail of slick oil coming from the car, which would then have an effect on the cars behind, would be awesome! 8) "Menu system" - Above all else, please get rid of the cheesy N2/N3 menus and garage and replace it with something fresh and better to use. I for one am not very keen on having to use the mouse to navigate around (and I'm sure I'm not alone, as this was discussed in another thread a while ago). Some keyboard shortcuts would be appreciated. 9) "Breaks and wheel-spin" - I love being able to press the breaks just enough that only ONE of the wheels locks up in GPL and not the other. It's a sign of good programming and a great physics engine. I wouldn't mind being able to lock up the front wheels in N4 either. We might not be able to see it as in GPL, but you could certainly feel it, and the replays would show it. 10) "More views" - The standard three views in N3 really aren't very good. They're the same as the ones from N1 and N2. GPL had less views as standard, but you could add more being editing one of the INI files, which was an added bonus. If all the views which we have access to in the replay, such as television 1 & 2, bumper, behind and best of all, roll-cage, were available instantly I know I'd be in racing heaven. I find television angles especially useful and fun. Looking over this message I see that I have appeared to put down Nascar 3 somewhat. Please don't think that. Nascar 3 is one of my favourite sims, and I play it almost as much as I do GPL, but I am well aware (as I'm sure are all of you) of how it could be improved. Let me know what you think... Neo

On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:18:45 +0000, Neo Not this again. In the same vein, why not animated crowds, television crews, blimps, and any other resource-hogging non-race-related gizmo to "improve" the on-track experience? Comment on the interface is good. Still, I cannot believe a list of improvements to this series could not include a single reference to the AI. I could care less about cosmetic improvements to the game (paint left on walls, etc). This is about the only area in which the series has improved from version to version. I am hoping that Papy greatly improves the way the AI behaves on the track as well as the physics model. Any graphical improvements are a distant concern.

A fully animated 3D***pit should be no problem if they use the GPL engine. But I do hope that they make the driver'S hands, steering wheel and gear stick optional, just like they did in GPL - there are many who don't feel the need to have a second set of hands and an additional wheel on their screen. Agreed. A NASCAR game would also be more accessible to europeans if they could display a working pit crew. It's an exciting element of the Sport, but seems rather dull in N1-N3, especially for newbies. Fog and different lighting for the tracks would add a great element of variety to the game. But I also like the approach that magnetic fields have done with RC2000 - they modelled each Rally Stage for a certain time of day and weather. You probably can reach the best visual realism if you do it like that. I'm a euro-guy, so I may be wrong but AFAIK NASCAR doesn't race in the wet or do they ? This is a very good point, hope they will have the time to put this in. In GPL the only debtis that can fall off your car are the wheels, and you can't hit them when they bounce across the track. I think this is a rather unimportant detail, but It would be nice to actually "trade paint" with other drivers. Enabling damage to walls or trackside objects (even if it'S just by use of textures) might be not too friendly on the resources thou. So please make it optional. Good Point. Yes!, although the effects of oil on the track might be something that will have to wait for the next generation physics model. I actually like the menu system in both NASCAR3 and GPL. Using the mouse to navigate menus is the most natural way to do it on a PC. The Gamepad friendly Menu systems of RC2000 and TOCA are a pain IMO. If anything, add keyboard shortcuts to the menus but otherwise keep them. IIRC this is a known limitation of the old N2/99 physics - locking wheels will be most certainly featured in N4. Have you seen the early Video of NASCAR3 with the GPL Engine ? IIRC there's a car spinning because of too much wheelspin. I wouldn't mind if they kept the system of having a realistic***pit view and or two Arcade views. It would be great to have a option for servers that could enforce a certain view or at least save some information on the driving view in the replays. Good Post, I hope some Members of the papyrus staff read this board and take these points into consideration. Alex

Hi, What I really want to see is qualifying that really matters (1st and 2nd round), the use of provisionals, different pit stalls, etc. All of these things could be toggled for people who don't want them and the game would then work similar to N3 where the user just gets put at the back of the field if they don't qualify. This would really add to the atmosphere, Imagine the pressure of trying to qualify well on 2nd round qualifying with no provisionals left! Even timed practices could add to the realism, happy hour could be pretty hectic! Later, John

Good ideas I just don't agree with the first one. I've already got my own arms, hands, and wheel. Why do I need a duplicate set?

Some pretty good ideas, in a perfect world where processing power wasn't a limitation, I would add: true breakdowns as opposed to "something's turned loose in the motor": brakes that fail, a gearbox that won't go into 3rd, a water pump goes out, ignition box quits, engine problems that aren't an instant "day over" such as a dropped cylinder, sucking a valve so that when you let off the gas, there's a huge puke of smoke.... improved A.I. that will RACE with you: give me a computer driven car that isn't afraid to bump draft! AI that knows where you are and doesn't stuff you in the wall coming out of turns because you happen to be in their programmed line, lots of room for improvement in this area..... an actual garage area that you can drive the car to for repairs after a bad crash - if it can be fixed and get me back out for those points, dang it let me take it behind the wall and work on it.. you mentioned better damage, I'm gonna 2nd that: better, realistic damage! tear up the sides, the roof (that means FLIPS) I want to see a car come apart when it gets hit or slams into the wall, I want wrecks that look like an ESPN replay, not the cookie cutter same every time damage it has now (it's great, don't get me wrong, I was totally impressed with N1 but I long for a devastating, car scatterin', wipe out) optional, well done sun glare.... this was originally considered for the GPL based version they were working on, I think it would be a nice touch.... and finally, the ability to climb out of the car and stomp the *** out of another driver after an uncalled for wreck..... (ok, maybe not but it would be fun on ocassion <G>)

I always say the same thing: GPL engine -- ----------------------------------- Morgan Vincent Wooten http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ -----------------------------------

Sorry Neo, but I have to disagree with you. Nothing that you mention will enhance the the "Racing", except maybe the weather effects. Just give me something close to the GPL physics and improve the AI. Dean

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>Have Papyrus disclosed any information about what features they intend >to include in Nascar 4. >Presuming they do use the GPL engine - and there's now no valid reason >why they shouldn't - they could include features which would tritely >stand out above the rest of the Nascar series and making most other >racing titles seem like toasted brownies. >Lying awake in bed last night I jotted down a few ideas which I >thought they should include in Nascar 4. Feel free to let me know what >you think. >a) "Driver hands, steering wheel and gear stick" - We already >have this in Grand Prix Legends, so it's certainly possible for them >to include it. Best of all it would put an end to the ugly static >cockpit we've had in each previous Nascar title. >2) "Fully working pit crew" - I'm sure many will agree that this >is something which could, and perhaps should, have been included in >Grand Prix Legends. No Nascar race is complete without pit stops, >often due to damage rather than strategy. The 2D images of the pit >crew in Nascar 3 make pitting a rather unrealistic and boring job. >3) "Realistic weather effects " Not all races can take place in >the perfect sunshine. Whilst there is an option to enduce wind effects >in Nascar 3, it's no very good, and besides the car performing a >little worse when you're heading into the wind, there's not much else. >Rainfall, clouds and a slight fog would all help add to the >atmosphere. These weather effects certainly helped make TOCA and TOCA >2 more fun. >4) "Damaged car parts remain on track" - When cars in Nascar 3 >are damaged and pieces fall off, they usually disappear a few moments >later, and whilst it's true that in real racing the yellow flag and >pace car would come out to slow down the remaining cars so that safety >guards could remove the dangerous items, I still wouldn't mind >approaching a pile-up knowing that I had to avoid debris as well as >the damaged cars. >5) "Damage to walls" - What happens when you hit a wall in N3? >Besides the damage you receive, only a very unrealistic looking >'spark' appears to tell you you're scraping the wall. Nascar >Revolution went one better here, by removing paint from your car and >keeping it on the wall instead. Scraping paint off like this looks and >feels much better, but still isn't quite good enough. What about >actual damage to the walls as well? Who can forget Nigel Mansell's >CART accident which put a hole through the outside concrete wall? (I >mention that one not because it was very good, but because it's the >only one I have on video) It's great to pass a corner in N3 and see >the tyre tracks from where you or another car previously spun. This >would be taking it to the next level. >6) "Fully working tractor" - In N3, if you blow your engine and >can't make it back to the pit, your spotter tells you that the tow >truck is on the way. Of course, we don't actually see it, cos' just >like in real life it's invisible. Well, I'm sure this is what Papyrus >would like us to believe, but it could certainly be done better. Show >me the tractor! Show me the tractor! Show me the tractor! - putting on >a very 'Jerry Maguire' style voice right now... >7) "Detailed car damage" - TOCA 2 had the windows smashing fully >in a serious enough collision, and GPL had engines bleeding oil and >even fire. What does N3 give us? A few bits of litter left behind and >a puff of smoke of your blow the engine. The new wheel-spin smoke was >a nice touch, but not enough of it was used and it didn't remain in >the air long enough to be 'Days of Thunder' like, which Papy said it >would be. A trail of slick oil coming from the car, which would then >have an effect on the cars behind, would be awesome! >8) "Menu system" - Above all else, please get rid of the cheesy >N2/N3 menus and garage and replace it with something fresh and better >to use. I for one am not very keen on having to use the mouse to >navigate around (and I'm sure I'm not alone, as this was discussed in >another thread a while ago). Some keyboard shortcuts would be >appreciated. >9) "Breaks and wheel-spin" - I love being able to press the >breaks just enough that only ONE of the wheels locks up in GPL and not >the other. It's a sign of good programming and a great physics engine. >I wouldn't mind being able to lock up the front wheels in N4 either. >We might not be able to see it as in GPL, but you could certainly feel >it, and the replays would show it. >10) "More views" - The standard three views in N3 really aren't >very good. They're the same as the ones from N1 and N2. GPL had less >views as standard, but you could add more being editing one of the INI >files, which was an added bonus. If all the views which we have access >to in the replay, such as television 1 & 2, bumper, behind and best of >all, roll-cage, were available instantly I know I'd be in racing >heaven. I find television angles especially useful and fun. >Looking over this message I see that I have appeared to put down >Nascar 3 somewhat. Please don't think that. Nascar 3 is one of my >favourite sims, and I play it almost as much as I do GPL, but I am >well aware (as I'm sure are all of you) of how it could be improved. >Let me know what you think... >Neo

Agreed, that's the first "feature" I disabled in GPL.

How about GLARE ON THE WINDSHIELD???? We've all seen the in car views on the tube where the driver's vision is completely obscured for a couple of seconds when a race is running into the late afternoon. It would be a challenge to be sure. (Don't use NO***in E-mail) You think in the storm we've found the eye of the calm.....Bill Mallonnee, Vigilantes Of Love

snip This is really not necessary, would bog down too many "weaker" systems. Eye candy only. More eye candy. When was the last NASCAR race you saw take place in the rain? They are experimenting with wipers and treaded tires for road courses though. See response to #9 below. Good one. Good idea, but more eye candy, more trouble than its worth. More eye candy. Good idea, oildowns would require too much "other" eye candy to work correctly, though. (track crew, oildry, more yellow laps, etc) The menu system works fine as is. I don't do open wheel but I'll take a stab and say that stock cars are much heavier than your typical GP cars, lockups would only occur on road courses most likely. There are only 2 of those in use and thats 2 too many for heavy cars like stockers as it is now. You really only need 1 veiw in a SIM anyway, anything else is arcade. More eye candy. I don't think you're bashing so much as looking for a prettier arcade game. My 2 cents. kj

More specifically, GPL-quality stock car physics and more realistic and fully configurable AI. Get those two points nailed *then* work on the eye candy. -- ----------------------------------- Morgan Vincent Wooten http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ ----------------------------------- > I always say the same thing: GPL engine > -- > ----------------------------------- > Morgan Vincent Wooten > http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ > -----------------------------------

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>Hi, > What I really want to see is qualifying that really matters (1st and >2nd round), the use of provisionals, different pit stalls, etc. All of >these things could be toggled for people who don't want them and the game >would then work similar to N3 where the user just gets put at the back of >the field if they don't qualify. This would really add to the >atmosphere, Imagine the pressure of trying to qualify well on 2nd round >qualifying with no provisionals left! Even timed practices could add to >the realism, happy hour could be pretty hectic!

THAT's what I've been getting at since Nas50th - Qualifying that means something!! Timed practices should be an option, too. A WINNER'S CIRCLE you can drive to! It'd be a lot better than that lame newspaper they have now. AI cars should also have to drive to their pits after a wreck - instead of just "teleport" to their pitstall. Gunner Gunner

I kind of take a neutral position on this item - while a 3d pitcrew would be very cool (a la Daytona USA by Sega) it would likely be bad on resources...but if it could be done well, go for it!! NASCAR doesn't race in the rain - but that's what would make weather so much cooler. Remember that race (Atlanta IIRC?) when Jeff Burton wrecked and won - both thanks to the rain? NASCAR always waits a while when the rain starts, as sometimes it is just a one-time burst. Burton spun or got caught up in a wreck that was rain-related, and they went yellow while evaluating the race. Burton held onto first at the line, and paced around in a heavily damaged car. When they redflagged the race, he was still first - and the winner!!! Adding rain would make pit strategies change, racing styles change, and the challenge of fighting the car when the first drops hit. Then, if the race wasn't 1/2 over and it got rained out for the day, you'd finish the race up the next day. Another good idea. You'd have more cars pitting due to slow tire leaks - another thing not modeled in any NASCAR sim. Well, the damage to walls idea could be important. Say someone augers in pretty hard going into turn 1 at the Brickyard, but the wall seems to be pretty much OK. Then when you blow a tire and slam into almost the exact same spot, the wall gives way, increasing the time in the caution (or do they red-flag it?) and decreasing the likelyhood your car will go on. Kinda like the pit crew though - possibly another resource hog, but would be quite nice. Maybe cars could have the parts falling off - in many a NASCAR or NASCAR-style race a car was black-flagged because a hood was coming loose and threatening to fly away or some other part was falling off. In no previous NASCAR sims can you be black-flagged for anything other than pit-speeding and passing under yellow, wheras you can be blackflagged for mechanical problems as well. You can break the rear traction and even get it sliding pretty good, but locking up the brakes is definitely needed. -- Kirk Lane ICQ: 28171652 BRT #187 "Yeah you won't find me I'm going MIA Tonight I'm leaving Going MIA Getting lost in you again Is better than being known" -Foo Fighters, "MIA"

I personally hate the***pit view as I have no feedback from the car, no feel from the g-forces, etc., no ability to see more than just a few feet to each side. I feel the arcade views can help compensate for some of these flaws with computer sims. Keep F-10 please. :) Dan Belcher Team Racing Unlimited http://simcrash.00game.com

On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:53:42 +0100, TI Alexander Marx >A fully animated 3D***pit should be no problem if they use the GPL >engine. But I do hope that they make the driver'S hands, steering wheel >and gear stick optional, just like they did in GPL - there are many who >don't feel the need to have a second set of hands and an additional >wheel on their screen. A fair enough request. But who actually plays GPL without the full ***pit unless they don't have the hardware to support it? No, but I'd certainly like to get my hands on it. Any idea if it's available to download and from where? Thanks! :-) Neo

On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:58:54 -0700, "Kirk Lane" >I kind of take a neutral position on this item - while a 3d pitcrew would be >very cool (a la Daytona USA by Sega) it would likely be bad on >resources...but if it could be done well, go for it!! It would depend on how they impliment it. If they had the pit crew in fully 3D there all the time, even when you were making use of them, that would certainly be a waste, but if the crew only appeared when you entered the pits and the camera angle swayed around so you wouldn't have to view the rest of the field, it could work perfectly. CART Precision Racing managed it just fine You're right about the pit strategies. That's something I hadn't thought about. At the moment I can win most AI races at 100% with the right setup, never needing to change it once I've found it. Random weather effects would add a much bigger sense of realism to this. 'Slow' tire leaks is a great idea. Instead of your tires bursting in one blow, feeling it reduce ever so slightly over a short period of time would be neat. In this situation a red flag would depend on how much litter was on the track. Enough damage to put a hole in the wall should certainly warrant it. I'd still love to see this idea implimented. Just like in Days of Thunder, with the rear bumper which caused all the cars to go into a spin. Yes! Neo

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>>2) "Fully working pit crew" - I'm sure many will agree that this >>is something which could, and perhaps should, have been included in >>Grand Prix Legends. No Nascar race is complete without pit stops, >>often due to damage rather than strategy. The 2D images of the pit >>crew in Nascar 3 make pitting a rather unrealistic and boring job. >Not this again. In the same vein, why not animated crowds, television >crews, blimps, and any other resource-hogging non-race-related gizmo >to "improve" the on-track experience?

A fully 3D rendered pit crew isn't a system hog. As I said in a previous message in this thread, CART Precision Racing pulled it off just fine. Most of us will agree that the pits play an important part in every race, and pitting in all current Nascar sims is dull, dull, dull. If you were so concerned with resource hogging, I'm sure you would be happy to race N3 with the same graphics from ICR1? Of course you wouldn't. Visuals do play a BIG part of sim titles. You're right. This is something which unfortunately N3 doesn't do very well at all. Racing against human opponents over WON is NOTHING like racing the AI. Big improvements needed here!

I thought of another thing last night too. What about the use of a clutch and the ability to 'stall' the engine if the revs drop too low? Neo

On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:00:20 -0600, "Tracey Miller" >Agreed, that's the first "feature" I disabled in GPL. You're probably in the minority. I can't stand GPL without the arms and wheel. Ugh! If looks and feels completely unnatural. Neo

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>Some pretty good ideas, in a perfect world where processing power >wasn't a limitation, I would add: >true breakdowns as opposed to "something's turned loose in the motor": >brakes that fail, a gearbox that won't go into 3rd, a water pump goes >out, ignition box quits, engine problems that aren't an instant "day >over" such as a dropped cylinder, sucking a valve so that when you let >off the gas, there's a huge puke of smoke....

They could do this with the GPL engine, I'm sure. The GPL AI Tweak lets us control settings like this, and as you know we can cause all sorts of damage to GPL, including oil leaks, fires, suspencion damage, etc. Whilst I'm not entirely sure Papy WILL include many more damage features like this into N4 (just a gut feeling), I sure hope they prove me wrong. Definately. The AI are just stupid when it comes to the distance between you, them and walls. I also hope that with the GPL engine, rubbing the wrong way can cause the car in front to spin, just like in real life. N3 doesn't do this. Now we're talking! Car flips WILL happen in N4, if Papy do use the GPL engine. And the rest of it. I wouldn't be surprised if we have the technology for this in just a few years time. Seriously! Neo

On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:00:47 -0800, "Dean Williams" >Sorry Neo, but I have to disagree with you. >Nothing that you mention will enhance the the "Racing", except maybe the >weather effects. >Just give me something close to the GPL physics and improve the AI. You're kidding, right? You telling me that you'd have as much fun with GPL if you weren't aware of how easily it was to damage the car? And what about the views we have to race? They all car enhance the driving experience... Neo

No it wouldn't. GPL did it and that was when a top system was a Pentium II 450MHz with 128MB RAM and a Voodoo 2. Now we have systems of 800MHz, 256MB RAM and the approaching Voodoo 4, 5 and 6's. And whilst most people don't have systems like those, plenty have a Pentium III 500MHz and above, which would be fine for what we're talking about. Neo

It's likely only a couple will actually get implemented, but these are good points. I'd like this - seeing the wheel jitter in GPL provides another visual input to help show (along with force feedback) what the forces acting on the front wheels. Without the sight of the front wheels and suspension moving, I would like a more dynamic 3D***pit. I agreee - in NASCAR, races are won and lost in the pits. I think having to drive around the tires on the ground from cars in front/behind your pit box and seeing pit crews swarming around would be great. This would be a huge resource hog, but the #CPU cycles for the physics engine could be cut right down when pitting and if it's an option, it could be enabled when we upgrade to the 1GHz+ PCs. Having to avoid the bouncing / rolling wheels when driving around a pile-up would be exciting. I'm sure this will be in N4 if they use the GPL engine. This is what I'm looking forward to the most. I imagine that a lot more skill is required to control wheel spin and keep the brakes from locking than what we need for N3. I find lapping the converted N3 ovals in GPL take a lot more concentration and is ultimately more rewarding. Also the effects of contact with AI cars could use a lot of work - it seems a bit canned to me in N3 where I always seem to spin if my front fender contacts the rear fender of an AI car I'd really like a wider field of vision, with the look left / look right views, along with a better mirror. I like the mirror in the N3 beta patch, but cars appear to be very far away - an option to enlarge the mirror (for faster systems?) would be nice. In multiplayer, I'd really like to be able to watch other cars in practice when I join races. N3 supports this, but on WON, this usually doesn't work very well compared to GPL. Probably a bandwidth limitation and with fields up to 43 cars, this won't be easily addressed just with more powerful CPUs. Brian

All good points, but let's add another one: because there are so many tracks in N3 we don't know them all by heart do we? So maybe it would be a good idea to let the spotter say what turn is coming up next (like a codriver in rallysims):take for example martinsville: "hairpin left,hairpin left,hairpin left,hairpin left,..." wouldn't that be entertaining? 8) ----- Original Message ----- Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 1:18 PM Subject: Ideas for Nascar 4

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> Have Papyrus disclosed any information about what features they intend > to include in Nascar 4. > Presuming they do use the GPL engine - and there's now no valid reason > why they shouldn't - they could include features which would tritely > stand out above the rest of the Nascar series and making most other > racing titles seem like toasted brownies. > Lying awake in bed last night I jotted down a few ideas which I > thought they should include in Nascar 4. Feel free to let me know what > you think. > a) "Driver hands, steering wheel and gear stick" - We already > have this in Grand Prix Legends, so it's certainly possible for them > to include it. Best of all it would put an end to the ugly static >***pit we've had in each previous Nascar title. > 2) "Fully working pit crew" - I'm sure many will agree that this > is something which could, and perhaps should, have been included in > Grand Prix Legends. No Nascar race is complete without pit stops, > often due to damage rather than strategy. The 2D images of the pit > crew in Nascar 3 make pitting a rather unrealistic and boring job. > 3) "Realistic weather effects " Not all races can take place in > the perfect sunshine. Whilst there is an option to enduce wind effects > in Nascar 3, it's no very good, and besides the car performing a > little worse when you're heading into the wind, there's not much else. > Rainfall, clouds and a slight fog would all help add to the > atmosphere. These weather effects certainly helped make TOCA and TOCA > 2 more fun. > 4) "Damaged car parts remain on track" - When cars in Nascar 3 > are damaged and pieces fall off, they usually disappear a few moments > later, and whilst it's true that in real racing the yellow flag and > pace car would come out to slow down the remaining cars so that safety > guards could remove the dangerous items, I still wouldn't mind > approaching a pile-up knowing that I had to avoid debris as well as > the damaged cars. > 5) "Damage to walls" - What happens when you hit a wall in N3? > Besides the damage you receive, only a very unrealistic looking > 'spark' appears to tell you you're scraping the wall. Nascar > Revolution went one better here, by removing paint from your car and > keeping it on the wall instead. Scraping paint off like this looks and > feels much better, but still isn't quite good enough. What about > actual damage to the walls as well? Who can forget Nigel Mansell's > CART accident which put a hole through the outside concrete wall? (I > mention that one not because it was very good, but because it's the > only one I have on video) It's great to pass a corner in N3 and see > the tyre tracks from where you or another car previously spun. This > would be taking it to the next level. > 6) "Fully working tractor" - In N3, if you blow your engine and > can't make it back to the pit, your spotter tells you that the tow > truck is on the way. Of course, we don't actually see it, cos' just > like in real life it's invisible. Well, I'm sure this is what Papyrus > would like us to believe, but it could certainly be done better. Show > me the tractor! Show me the tractor! Show me the tractor! - putting on > a very 'Jerry Maguire' style voice right now... > 7) "Detailed car damage" - TOCA 2 had the windows smashing fully > in a serious enough collision, and GPL had engines bleeding oil and > even fire. What does N3 give us? A few bits of litter left behind and > a puff of smoke of your blow the engine. The new wheel-spin smoke was > a nice touch, but not enough of it was used and it didn't remain in > the air long enough to be 'Days of Thunder' like, which Papy said it > would be. A trail of slick oil coming from the car, which would then > have an effect on the cars behind, would be awesome! > 8) "Menu system" - Above all else, please get rid of the cheesy > N2/N3 menus and garage and replace it with something fresh and better > to use. I for one am not very keen on having to use the mouse to > navigate around (and I'm sure I'm not alone, as this was discussed in > another thread a while ago). Some keyboard shortcuts would be > appreciated. > 9) "Breaks and wheel-spin" - I love being able to press the > breaks just enough that only ONE of the wheels locks up in GPL and not > the other. It's a sign of good programming and a great physics engine. > I wouldn't mind being able to lock up the front wheels in N4 either. > We might not be able to see it as in GPL, but you could certainly feel > it, and the replays would show it. > 10) "More views" - The standard three views in N3 really aren't > very good. They're the same as the ones from N1 and N2. GPL had less > views as standard, but you could add more being editing one of the INI > files, which was an added bonus. If all the views which we have access > to in the replay, such as television 1 & 2, bumper, behind and best of > all, roll-cage, were available instantly I know I'd be in racing > heaven. I find television angles especially useful and fun. > Looking over this message I see that I have appeared to put down > Nascar 3 somewhat. Please don't think that. Nascar 3 is one of my > favourite sims, and I play it almost as much as I do GPL, but I am > well aware (as I'm sure are all of you) of how it could be improved. > Let me know what you think... > Neo

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>On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:00:47 -0800, "Dean Williams" >>Sorry Neo, but I have to disagree with you. >>Nothing that you mention will enhance the the "Racing", except maybe the >>weather effects. >>Just give me something close to the GPL physics and improve the AI. >You're kidding, right? You telling me that you'd have as much fun with >GPL if you weren't aware of how easily it was to damage the car? >And what about the views we have to race? They all car enhance the >driving experience...

I agree with Dean 100%. The only thing desirable in your original post for any racing sim was weather, and for NASCAR that would be meaningless. As for different views, I would rather throw the CD away than race in anything but ***pit view. After carefull testing and data collection, I have found that I never race GPL without using my arms and wheel. Nothing could be more unnatural than having a second set on the screen. Don McCorkle

I think, or at least 'hope' you were kidding about this. That's the best thing about ovals - you also know that a left turn is approaching. If you're new to tracks like the Watkins Glen you might need a visual or audio aid, but that's still highly unrealistic and a waste of time and programming. Not that I believe you were serious about this, mind you. Neo

I love the***pit view in GPL, but I never use the outside view. My favourite is the roll-bar however, and whilst it's a bit harder to know when your rear end has come lose, it's the best for racing at the Ring' and for multiplayer events, as you can easily see how far ahead everything is. It's also great if you haven't got a high spec machine, as I've found it adds another 5 - 7 frames per second compared to the***pit. Neo

They are??? Very cool!!! They should be able to stick...but be about as tail-happy as a Lotus with a setup designed by a 5-year-old :) You ever seen the brakes on those things? They're pretty friggin big (tho not the monstrous masterpieces you'll find on something like the F50GT...if I only had 1.44 million :) Believe me, I guarantee you they can still lock up those brakes if they jam them hard enough (ever seen someone spin trying to avoid another? chances are they locked one up.). I guarantee you that if my Dad's '94 Camaro Z28 didn't have ABS, it'd have been wrecked by now...and I'm sure that thing weighs about the same or a little more than a NASCAR. Why remove roadcourses from NASCAR's shedule? I think they should have more!!! I'd love to see them do 2-week stints at certain tracks - like Daytona or Phoenix - and run the oval one week, the roadcourse the other. -- Kirk Lane ICQ: 28171652 BRT #187 "Yeah you won't find me I'm going MIA Tonight I'm leaving Going MIA Getting lost in you again Is better than being known" -Foo Fighters, "MIA"

> >I agree with Dean 100%. The only thing desirable in your original post for any > >racing sim was weather, and for NASCAR that would be meaningless. As for > >different views, I would rather throw the CD away than race in anything but > >cockpit view. After carefull testing and data collection, I have found that I > >never race GPL without using my arms and wheel. Nothing could be more > >unnatural than having a second set on the screen. I used to think this way when this option was first though of to be implemented in a racing sim. I was running N2 on TEN at the time. I drove without the arms for a while when I did get GPL just because of my thinking, but after seeing the benefits of the arms, I use them as often as I can.. The biggest benefit is to be able to see how bad your pot is by how much the arms twitch. The Roll Bar view/shy view/F10 view is a great tool for the Nurburgring. However, once you learn the track, it becomes just like any other track.. you know how far everything is and where everything is. So, After learning the track, I switched to the***pit view and not only did I have more fun, I improved my lap times by a whole lot. I'd suggest learning the track in F10, then when you are good, use ***pit.

After carefull testing and data collection, I have found that I You are right Mike, but I don't think the arms give you any more useful information than the wear of your pot. I used to race with arms and wheel on for half a year - but turning them off was like a breakthrough for me. Suddenly I could stay immersed, feel what the car was doing, keep my determination and focus even through a race distance. Although it may come down to personal preferences, IMO it makes a big difference for the experienced GPL driver not to be distracted by strange on-screen movement of even more strange polygon arms. However, I think it's fine that they are in the sim, and would be happy if they follow a similar approach in N4, means: make a fully 3D animated***pit, with optional arms and wheel (maybe even more customization options). Alex

On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:02:11 -0700, "Kirk Lane" >They are??? Very cool!!! They should be able to stick...but be about as >tail-happy as a Lotus with a setup designed by a 5-year-old :) Actually, you'd be surprised how bright kids can be about these things. I've been coaching my younger brother who's seven-years-old in the ins and outs of garage setups and he sat in front of the GPL garage yesterday and tweaked with the setups. It wasn't perfect, but what he did come up with was darn good. Certainly better than I could have done when I was seven. He had the gear ratios all wrong and the suspension was unbalanced, but it was an impressive start. I fully intend to let him experiment more with GPL and N3, in hopes that he'll soon learn enough to make some real contributions to my setups. Absolutely. If a big rig lorry can lock its breaks, a stock car certainly can. And I've seen them lock their wheels, albeit not as much as F1 - but then, I don't watch as much Nascar as F1, so I'm not in the best position to judge. Neo

> I used to think this way when this option was first though of to be >implemented in a racing sim. I was running N2 on TEN at the time. I >drove without the arms for a while when I did get GPL just because of my >thinking, but after seeing the benefits of the arms, I use them as often >as I can.. The biggest benefit is to be able to see how bad your pot is >by how much the arms twitch. Never had a twitch. I've had my ECCI for 18 months, run about two hours a day. I've been thinking that it's about due for new pots, but with no symptoms it's one of those things you just don't get around to. Don McCorkle

My post ended with a 8) So I was kidding.

I've been running GPL since it 1st came out, and online for more than a year. And I can tell you that most of us have long ago stopped using the moving wheel/arms for a few reasons. 1st: they use too much cpu resources 2nd: It slows down your frame rate. Besides, you already have two arms and a wheel. 3rd: it's just plain distracting In the of GPL the 60s, pit stops weren't the norm. So there was no need to model a functional pit crew. As for having 3D pit crews in N4, I rather they put their resourses into other more important areas. They don't race in the rain on ovals. And the lack of traction at Watkins Glen and Sears Point would have 99% of us off at every corner. This idea does have merit Another good idea hopefully we won't need the tow truck. But having one would be more realistic. The only trouble is that when your day is done, most just disco. So this feature wouldn't be worth the effort. The damage is more than enough already Again, the menus are just fine, and they're functional "Breaks and wheel-spin" - I love being able to press the excellent idea. Joel Willstein

wrote... I prefer the arms and wheel. I've never seen conversation on RAS or VROC by anyone who said they gave them up for the reasons you described - obviously that doesn't mean it hasn't occurred, but I'm just curious who "most of us" are... --David Cook

> >> a) "Driver hands, steering wheel and gear stick" - We already > >> have this in Grand Prix Legends, so it's certainly possible for them > >> to include it. Best of all it would put an end to the ugly static > >>***pit we've had in each previous Nascar title. > >This is really not necessary, would bog down too many "weaker" systems. Eye

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> >candy only. > No it wouldn't. GPL did it and that was when a top system was a > Pentium II 450MHz with 128MB RAM and a Voodoo 2. Now we have systems > of 800MHz, 256MB RAM and the approaching Voodoo 4, 5 and 6's. > And whilst most people don't have systems like those, plenty have a > Pentium III 500MHz and above, which would be fine for what we're > talking about. > Neo

Neo, You're missing a few important points. . 1- most online racers I now run gpl with 350-450 computers with 64MB or RAM 2- the arm/wheel thing uses a lot of cpu resourses 3- they get in the way of the tach while turning the wheel. And it's a real pain in the ***in the eagle 4- they're very distracting while trying to concentrate on your driving 5- I already have arms and a wheel. 7 out of 10 gpl drivers at WinVROC don't use this option. Joel Willstein

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> You're missing a few important points. > . > 1- most online racers I now run gpl with 350-450 computers with 64MB or RAM > 2- the arm/wheel thing uses a lot of cpu resourses > 3- they get in the way of the tach while turning the wheel. And it's a real > pain in the ***in the eagle > 4- they're very distracting while trying to concentrate on your driving > 5- I already have arms and a wheel. > 7 out of 10 gpl drivers at WinVROC don't use this option.

You've performed a survey? I certainly do use the arm and wheel, and I really like it, can't live without it! :-) -- Arne Martin

On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 08:57:50 -0400, "Joel Willstein" >3- they get in the way of the tach while turning the wheel. And it's a real >pain in the ***in the eagle Same thing happens with your own arms in a real car. Where did you get this statistic? Neo

On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:18:26 -0400, "Joel Willstein" >2nd: It slows down your frame rate. Besides, you already have two arms and a >wheel. What if you use a joystick, as most competative GPL racers do? Having read so many opinions that the arms and steering wheel in GPL is better switched off, I went and tried a few hotlaps without it, and it's only now that I can appreciate the use of turning the darn things off. My lap times have increase by 1.7 seconds on some tracks. Judging corners has become easier and although it may not LOOK as nice, it makes for much better racing. That's for hotlapping however. Racing on-line is still more fun with the full range of in-car features, but only because I'm not trying to squeeze the last few seconds out of my car when I race on-line. I just try to stay ahead. Neo

It's not because W. Woeger is using a joystick that all the most competitive gpl racers use it! Most of them use a wheel. Let's not confuse this again. It's like saying that all good racers race Lotii because Jim Clark does...

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>wrote... >> I've been running GPL since it 1st came out, and online for more than a >> year. And I can tell you that most of us have long ago stopped using the >> moving wheel/arms for a few reasons. >I prefer the arms and wheel. I've never seen conversation on RAS or VROC >by anyone who said they gave them up for the reasons you described - >obviously that doesn't mean it hasn't occurred, but I'm just curious who >"most of us" are...

One of the first things I got rid of. Why? Because they are too distracting. -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

It's nothing like that, and isn't just because one person is successful at it that the rest of us are. The fact is, if you want to pull off decent hotlap times, the best combination is a joystick and a set of pedals. Using a steering wheel to turn the car takes too long to make corrections when hotlapping. A joystick only needs simple hand corrections. Simple, and true... Neo

> >It's not because W. Woeger is using a joystick that all the most competitive > >gpl racers use it! Most of them use a wheel. > >Let's not confuse this again. > >It's like saying that all good racers race Lotii because Jim Clark does...

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> It's nothing like that, and isn't just because one person is > successful at it that the rest of us are. > The fact is, if you want to pull off decent hotlap times, the best > combination is a joystick and a set of pedals. > Using a steering wheel to turn the car takes too long to make > corrections when hotlapping. A joystick only needs simple hand > corrections. > Simple, and true... > Neo

I dont use Pedals (More)simple, and true...:) Wolfgang Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.