Settle for "Fantasy Track Pack"?

How many out there would settle for a Fantasy Track Pack for N3/NL/GPL/Viper - hell ANY of them!! I know I would (at the right price). I don't care so much about it being an ACTUAL track since I've never been to a WC track except Sears Point anyway, but I know there are others out there that feel differently. You know who you are: the guys who can recite driver, number, make and finishing position for every driver since 1950 (or whenever)... You guys who KNOW that flagstand wasn't right _there_ in 1967... So do you diehards care whether it's ACTUALLY Daytona (or wherever) and not something like Red Rock? What's a fair price? $5 per track? If there's 10 tracks, would you pay $20? Gunner

>How many out there would settle for a Fantasy Track Pack for >N3/NL/GPL/Viper - hell ANY of them!! >... >Gunner I would buy an expansion pack like that, as long as they were realistic, no caves with lava rivers and such. Tracks like those in GT1 and GT2 would work very well thank you. Alan

You got ripped off if you payed 65 dollars, I bought N3 the day it was released off Sierra's website for 49.95 -- Chris Arndt =============================== 1999 FSSPRO BGN Champion 1999 ISR Shootout Runner up "All I can do on a given day is put myself in a position to win, and let circumstances dictate the outcome" -Richard Petty http://CArndt.tripod.com > I'd certainly buy more road race tracks for GPL, but why do they have to be > fantasy tracks? There were lots of other excellent road courses around in > '67 that just weren't used that season (Aintree, Barcelona, Hockenheim, > Clermont-Ferrand, Mont Tremblant, Zeltwig), that would be great for racing > GPL on. > If we have to stray further from realism, how about some of the road course > from more recent years, like Laguna Seca (I'd love to try the Corkscrew!), > Estoril, Brno, or Suzuka. I have trouble imagining any fantasy tracks having > the quality or the intrigue of driving the real ones. > I bought N3 for $65 Can just so I could have the 8 tracks for GPL, and I > don't even like ovals! If I could get some of the classic old tracks, or > some of the great ones from more recent times for GPL, I'd be willing to > spend a reasonable amount. > Kevin Caldwell > Calgary, Canada > > How many out there would settle for a Fantasy Track Pack for > > N3/NL/GPL/Viper - hell ANY of them!! > > I know I would (at the right price). I don't care so much about it > > being an ACTUAL track since I've never been to a WC track except Sears > Point > > anyway, but I know there are others out there that feel differently. You > > know who you are: the guys who can recite driver, number, make and > finishing > > position for every driver since 1950 (or whenever)... You guys who KNOW > > that flagstand wasn't right _there_ in 1967... So do you diehards care > > whether it's ACTUALLY Daytona (or wherever) and not something like Red > Rock? > > What's a fair price? $5 per track? If there's 10 tracks, would you > pay > > $20? > > Gunner

lava rivers LOL pretty good alan. > >How many out there would settle for a Fantasy Track Pack for > >N3/NL/GPL/Viper - hell ANY of them!! > >... > >Gunner > I would buy an expansion pack like that, as long as they were realistic, no > caves with lava rivers and such. Tracks like those in GT1 and GT2 would work > very well thank you. > Alan

Speaking strickly for myself, I never really cared for fantasy tracks. I much rather race on tracks I've read about, or seen races on. It just adds to the full sim experience for me. Joel Willstein

I'd certainly buy more road race tracks for GPL, but why do they have to be fantasy tracks? There were lots of other excellent road courses around in '67 that just weren't used that season (Aintree, Barcelona, Hockenheim, Clermont-Ferrand, Mont Tremblant, Zeltwig), that would be great for racing GPL on. If we have to stray further from realism, how about some of the road course from more recent years, like Laguna Seca (I'd love to try the Corkscrew!), Estoril, Brno, or Suzuka. I have trouble imagining any fantasy tracks having the quality or the intrigue of driving the real ones. I bought N3 for $65 Can just so I could have the 8 tracks for GPL, and I don't even like ovals! If I could get some of the classic old tracks, or some of the great ones from more recent times for GPL, I'd be willing to spend a reasonable amount. Kevin Caldwell Calgary, Canada

He said it was $65 Canadian Dollars.

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> You got ripped off if you payed 65 dollars, I bought N3 the day it was > released off Sierra's website for 49.95 > -- > Chris Arndt > =============================== > 1999 FSSPRO BGN Champion > 1999 ISR Shootout Runner up > "All I can do on a given day is put myself > in a position to win, and let circumstances > dictate the outcome" > -Richard Petty > http://CArndt.tripod.com > > I'd certainly buy more road race tracks for GPL, but why do they have to > be > > fantasy tracks? There were lots of other excellent road courses around

in > > '67 that just weren't used that season (Aintree, Barcelona, Hockenheim, > > Clermont-Ferrand, Mont Tremblant, Zeltwig), that would be great for racing > > GPL on. > > If we have to stray further from realism, how about some of the road > course > > from more recent years, like Laguna Seca (I'd love to try the Corkscrew!),

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> > Estoril, Brno, or Suzuka. I have trouble imagining any fantasy tracks > having > > the quality or the intrigue of driving the real ones. > > I bought N3 for $65 Can just so I could have the 8 tracks for GPL, and I > > don't even like ovals! If I could get some of the classic old tracks, or > > some of the great ones from more recent times for GPL, I'd be willing to > > spend a reasonable amount. > > Kevin Caldwell > > Calgary, Canada > > > How many out there would settle for a Fantasy Track Pack for > > > N3/NL/GPL/Viper - hell ANY of them!! > > > I know I would (at the right price). I don't care so much about

it

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> > > being an ACTUAL track since I've never been to a WC track except Sears > > Point > > > anyway, but I know there are others out there that feel differently. > You > > > know who you are: the guys who can recite driver, number, make and > > finishing > > > position for every driver since 1950 (or whenever)... You guys who

KNOW > > > that flagstand wasn't right _there_ in 1967... So do you diehards care > > > whether it's ACTUALLY Daytona (or wherever) and not something like Red > > Rock? > > > What's a fair price? $5 per track? If there's 10 tracks, would you > > pay > > > $20? > > > Gunner

$65 Canadian isn't a rip-off. It's about $45 US. BTW, I bought it the other day for $54 Canadian..about $35 US. Cheers

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>You got ripped off if you payed 65 dollars, I bought N3 the day it was >released off Sierra's website for 49.95 >-- >Chris Arndt >=============================== >1999 FSSPRO BGN Champion >1999 ISR Shootout Runner up >"All I can do on a given day is put myself >in a position to win, and let circumstances >dictate the outcome"

I would buy it, as long as it was done well. I think it would sell better if it had a couple of "real" tracks.

I got ripped off ($69.00 CDN funds)

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> He said it was $65 Canadian Dollars. > > You got ripped off if you payed 65 dollars, I bought N3 the day it was > > released off Sierra's website for 49.95 > > -- > > Chris Arndt > > =============================== > > 1999 FSSPRO BGN Champion > > 1999 ISR Shootout Runner up > > "All I can do on a given day is put myself > > in a position to win, and let circumstances > > dictate the outcome" > > -Richard Petty > > http://CArndt.tripod.com > > > I'd certainly buy more road race tracks for GPL, but why do they have

to > > be > > > fantasy tracks? There were lots of other excellent road courses around > in > > > '67 that just weren't used that season (Aintree, Barcelona, Hockenheim,

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> > > Clermont-Ferrand, Mont Tremblant, Zeltwig), that would be great for > racing > > > GPL on. > > > If we have to stray further from realism, how about some of the road > > course > > > from more recent years, like Laguna Seca (I'd love to try the > Corkscrew!), > > > Estoril, Brno, or Suzuka. I have trouble imagining any fantasy tracks > > having > > > the quality or the intrigue of driving the real ones. > > > I bought N3 for $65 Can just so I could have the 8 tracks for GPL, and

I > > > don't even like ovals! If I could get some of the classic old tracks, or > > > some of the great ones from more recent times for GPL, I'd be willing to

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> > > spend a reasonable amount. > > > Kevin Caldwell > > > Calgary, Canada > > > > How many out there would settle for a Fantasy Track Pack for > > > > N3/NL/GPL/Viper - hell ANY of them!! > > > > I know I would (at the right price). I don't care so much about > it > > > > being an ACTUAL track since I've never been to a WC track except

Sears

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> > > Point > > > > anyway, but I know there are others out there that feel differently. > > You > > > > know who you are: the guys who can recite driver, number, make and > > > finishing > > > > position for every driver since 1950 (or whenever)... You guys who > KNOW > > > > that flagstand wasn't right _there_ in 1967... So do you diehards > care > > > > whether it's ACTUALLY Daytona (or wherever) and not something like

Red

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> > > Rock? > > > > What's a fair price? $5 per track? If there's 10 tracks, would > you > > > pay > > > > $20? > > > > Gunner

>If we have to stray further from realism, how about some of the road course >from more recent years, like Laguna Seca (I'd love to try the Corkscrew!), >Estoril, Brno, or Suzuka. I have trouble imagining any fantasy tracks having >the quality or the intrigue of driving the real ones. I think the esses of Kyalami is very similar to the Corkscrew. The elevation change isn't as drastic, but the feel is the same... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Notice the Can next to the Dollar amount. That means Canadian. Vintook

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> You got ripped off if you payed 65 dollars, I bought N3 the day it was > released off Sierra's website for 49.95 > -- > Chris Arndt > =============================== > 1999 FSSPRO BGN Champion > 1999 ISR Shootout Runner up > "All I can do on a given day is put myself > in a position to win, and let circumstances > dictate the outcome" > -Richard Petty > http://CArndt.tripod.com > > I'd certainly buy more road race tracks for GPL, but why do they have to > be > > fantasy tracks? There were lots of other excellent road courses around

in > > '67 that just weren't used that season (Aintree, Barcelona, Hockenheim, > > Clermont-Ferrand, Mont Tremblant, Zeltwig), that would be great for racing > > GPL on. > > If we have to stray further from realism, how about some of the road > course > > from more recent years, like Laguna Seca (I'd love to try the Corkscrew!),

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> > Estoril, Brno, or Suzuka. I have trouble imagining any fantasy tracks > having > > the quality or the intrigue of driving the real ones. > > I bought N3 for $65 Can just so I could have the 8 tracks for GPL, and I > > don't even like ovals! If I could get some of the classic old tracks, or > > some of the great ones from more recent times for GPL, I'd be willing to > > spend a reasonable amount. > > Kevin Caldwell > > Calgary, Canada > > > How many out there would settle for a Fantasy Track Pack for > > > N3/NL/GPL/Viper - hell ANY of them!! > > > I know I would (at the right price). I don't care so much about

it

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> > > being an ACTUAL track since I've never been to a WC track except Sears > > Point > > > anyway, but I know there are others out there that feel differently. > You > > > know who you are: the guys who can recite driver, number, make and > > finishing > > > position for every driver since 1950 (or whenever)... You guys who

KNOW > > > that flagstand wasn't right _there_ in 1967... So do you diehards care > > > whether it's ACTUALLY Daytona (or wherever) and not something like Red > > Rock? > > > What's a fair price? $5 per track? If there's 10 tracks, would you > > pay > > > $20? > > > Gunner

> Speaking strickly for myself, I never really cared for fantasy tracks. >I much rather race on tracks I've read about, or seen races on. It just adds >to the full sim experience for me. >Joel Willstein I agree with that, but what I was feebly attempting to avert to was the fact that just about EVERY "real" race track wants royalties of some sort. After you do that with 5 or 10 tracks it adds VERY quickly to the bottom line cost of the add-on making it prohibitively expensive. Fantasy tracks require no royalties, so they can be "made" more cheaply, therefore more tracks could be done for the same amount of money (assuming the designers actually DID that). So to restate the question: is "more" better or is "real" better? How much better is one over the other - for example would you pay more for 3 real tracks than 10 fantasy tracks? Gunner

>How > much better is one over the other - for example would you pay more for 3 > real tracks than 10 fantasy tracks? > Gunner Yes.

Surely they don't have to, but higher production costs will inevitably translate into higher retail prices. It would require some SERIOUS research to come up with faithful and worthy reacreations of some of the 60's race tracks. If any ambition at all would be put into the attempt, the amount of work would be immense. Tho I'm sure many simmers would be more than willing to cough up the moola for those "real" tracks. Personally I don't really care if it's real or a product of someone's imagination. One should keep in mind that building a real life race track is - like any big construction undertaking - subject to many constraints; physical, financial, aesthetical, ethical, etc. and will thus inevitably be a sum of many compromises. The greatest race tracks will only be built in the minds of the track designers. --- Antti Markus Peteri 15 miles. your dim light shines from so far away - Soul Asylum, Promises Broken

Just as longs as it isn't anything like Jeff Gordon Racing ; ) -- the friendly pysco -I know it's spelled wrong but I'm not a psycho ;-) -A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking

Depends on the quality in my opinion. If they took the time to make the tracks believable and realistic I think I'd rather have more selection. That said, I've only been interested in motorsports for the last 5 or 6 years so I haven't developed a sort of devotion to the tracks like others have. -- the friendly pysco -I know it's spelled wrong but I'm not a psycho ;-) -On the other hand.... you have different fingers

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> Personally I don't really care if it's real or a product of someone's > imagination. One should keep in mind that building a real life race track > is - like any big construction undertaking - subject to many constraints; > physical, financial, aesthetical, ethical, etc. and will thus inevitably > be a sum of many compromises. The greatest race tracks will only be built > in the minds of the track designers. > --- > Antti Markus Peteri

But all those constraints are what gives the individual tracks their character, along with the history of all the great races that have been held there. I love being able to watch the footage of the old Spa, or Nurburgring, and know the corners and the lines from GPL, or read an article about the races and know the passing line that was used. I was watching a modern Mosport race last night, and could easily relate to the lead car that slid off at T3, or the passing moves into the T8 sweeper. I know modeling the real tracks would be far more difficult and expensive. To me they would be worth far more than some idealized fantasy track. There may well be many sim racers that would want fantasy tracks, but I would vote with my cash for the real ones. If GPL was just a fantasy sim, I think the number of people that would have spent the time to master such a difficult sim would have been counted on one hand. Instead we have a group of very dedicated drivers, and lots of great add-ons developed. It is the excellent modeling of an interesting time and racing that attracts and holds many of us. I'm still working on getting below 8:30 at Nurburgring, and the on-line racing with real people will keep my interest for some time to come. If fantasy tracks were my only option, I'd do without them. Kevin Caldwell

> So to restate the question: is "more" better or is "real" better? How >much better is one over the other - for example would you pay more for 3 >real tracks than 10 fantasy tracks? >Gunner Considering that I bought BOTH track packs for ICR and the Busch Expansion for N2, the answer is probably yes... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Yes, the history is a big factor, on that I do agree. GPL's old Nrburgring was the first one that made me dig a bit deeper into the backgrounds and it has been an enriching journey. History is definitely The Advantage of the Real tracks, simply brings a whole lotta depth into it all. BUT. When I'm racing on/offline and engaged in a furious battle or just enjoying the rhythm and flow of driving when negotiating through the smooth curves of Zandy by myself, the history soon fades into the background where it belongs, and there is only NOW and only THIS MOMENT as there should be, and I won't doubt for a second that the exhilaration and satisfaction could be there even if I wasn't racing on something that is supposed to be seen as a digital recreation of reality. The word Fantasy seems to scare simmers beyond belief. Find another word for it then. As you should realize by now I have not proposed any 360 degree vertical loops or NFS style arcade tracks, God forbid! I'm only saying: Nrburgring is a creation of a human mind too, and if for some fortunate reasons it got laid in asphalt and realized, it's still just a human creation, like the "fantasy" tracks would be. For F1 sim I would of course first and foremost like to have the real tracks of the season it tries to emulate. More real tracks would be still better. But I definitely won't hesitate to immediately adopt any tracks which never will be realized in real life (usually for the obvious financial reasons) if they are challenging enough and have some "punch" in them. Think about today's world. It's harder than ever to have a race track construction project financed, authorized and all in all successfully completed. There are more constraints and less latitude for these kind of enterprises than ever in the history of mankind. For starters, you've got the ecologists in your back and today they're not just demonstrators anymore - they're in administration (generally not a bad thing at all). But the list is endless. Many new race tracks are lamer than ever. A track like Nrburgring couldn't be built today. And it's not only about safety. It's the freakin zillions of constraints that set limits to what is feasible and can be justified to those who make the decisions in the administration. Nrburgring would be considered a *** attack against the delicate nature and a*** of the beautiful mountainous scenery. Instead - if we'd be in luck - they'd point the constructors to a flat field near some 6-lane autobahn. That's constraints for you. We're lucky that the Ring once got built and Papy modeled it in GPL. But what if the constraints had been more limiting back then? We wouldn't have anything like Nrburgring to play on just because we're so attached to what is actually laid in asphalt that we cannot open our hearts to anything that has not been realized, but is still just a plan in someone's mind?!! For crying out loud, Nrburgring too was just a plan once. Accordingly, it would of course require a lot of thought and careful planning to come up with a decent "fantasy" track too. Without a doubt, there are still a LOT of old and maybe already vanished tracks which would be awesome if modeled for our enjoyment and like you, I would also be willing to pay some big buckz for 'em. But don't overlook something that hasn't actually been built just because it isn't. The digital age may well let the track designing talents bring us what can never ever be realized in real life again - not in our lifetime, at least. It would probably take a global thermonuclear war to clear up some (physical & mental) space for a new Nrburgring. But who'd be racing then, some rodents perhaps, and on a pitstop they'd stop to take a bite & chew our burnt flesh. What a delightful vision. I'll stop right here. That's a lot of fingers in one hand. A regular freak show. You'd be a fool while we'd be having a good time for that much longer. But if those tracks really were good, I bet you too would be*** with us. --- Antti Markus Peteri 15 miles. your dim light shines from so far away - Soul Asylum, Promises Broken

Kevin said.. And soon, a host of more real-life tracks, hopefully. Pity is it takes so long for us "humans" to figure out the code the sim developers use. Take a look at www.gpl.netti.nu and the current projects section. AFAIK, there are more people also working on "new" tracks for GPL. After this initial track is released, we'll start on a new one. And hopefully soon our tools will be good enough that almost anybody can sit down with a heap of pictures, maps, videos and coffee, and start delivering more of the real tracks. There sure are enough interesting ones to recreate! Matt, ------------- GPLEA

: How many out there would settle for a Fantasy Track Pack for : N3/NL/GPL/Viper - hell ANY of them!! I probably would. A lot of real world tracks aren't particularly interesting. Why not get a creative person with a *good* understanding of racing to cook up some really challenging, and really satisfying fantasy tracks. Put back in the kind of stuff that safety (and common sense has removed from racing, like blind corners, elevation changes, camber changes. Oh, and set it all in the middle of Germany and make it foggy half the time. Oh, and make it about 9:00 per lap. Stephen

> >If we have to stray further from realism, how about some of the road course > >from more recent years, like Laguna Seca (I'd love to try the Corkscrew!), > >Estoril, Brno, or Suzuka. I have trouble imagining any fantasy tracks having > >the quality or the intrigue of driving the real ones. > I think the esses of Kyalami is very similar to the Corkscrew. The elevation > change isn't as drastic, but the feel is the same... > Eldred Eldred, While the esses at Kyalami start out like the famous corkscrew, they end up going up hill, while at laguna Seca you need to pull your seat belts even tighter flying down hill. Joel Willstein

> > Speaking strickly for myself, I never really cared for fantasy tracks.

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> >I much rather race on tracks I've read about, or seen races on. It just > adds > >to the full sim experience for me. > >Joel Willstein > I agree with that, but what I was feebly attempting to avert to was

the > fact that just about EVERY "real" race track wants royalties of some sort. > After you do that with 5 or 10 tracks it adds VERY quickly to the bottom > line cost of the add-on making it prohibitively expensive. > Fantasy tracks require no royalties, so they can be "made" more cheaply,

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> therefore more tracks could be done for the same amount of money (assuming > the designers actually DID that). > So to restate the question: is "more" better or is "real" better? How > much better is one over the other - for example would you pay more for 3 > real tracks than 10 fantasy tracks? > Gunner

Gunner, I would pay for 3 real tracks rather then 10 fantasy tracks. Afterall, this is supposed to be simulation based. The final cost of a sim is what it is. Royalties is something that we have to live with. Afterall, that is the reason why we don't have the Cooper as such. But this is just my opinion, and you're as intitled to your views as I am. Joel Willstein

> > I'd certainly buy more road race tracks for GPL, but why do they have to be

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> > fantasy tracks? > Surely they don't have to, but higher production costs will inevitably > translate into higher retail prices. It would require some SERIOUS > research to come up with faithful and worthy reacreations of some of the > 60's race tracks. If any ambition at all would be put into the attempt, > the amount of work would be immense. Tho I'm sure many simmers would be > more than willing to cough up the moola for those "real" tracks. > Personally I don't really care if it's real or a product of someone's > imagination. One should keep in mind that building a real life race track > is - like any big construction undertaking - subject to many constraints; > physical, financial, aesthetical, ethical, etc. and will thus inevitably > be a sum of many compromises. The greatest race tracks will only be built > in the minds of the track designers.

One point you're missing, is that you can't get a certain sense of history,or drama from a fantasy track that you get from driving s simulated track. I still think about what it would be like to race a Trans-Am car or Can-Am car around Bridgehampton (my home track,and where I took my SCCA drivers school). My favorite track in SCGT is Limerock. Not because it's so unique or difficult, but because of the number of races I ran and watched there over the year. Joel Willstein

If you had read my second message in this thread you'd see that I certainly didn't miss the point but actually emphasized it at the beginning of my 2nd message. What I fail to understand is the attitude "real tracks or no tracks" demonstrated in this thread several times already. As I mentioned, history can add a whole lotta depth to a sim, and thus enrich the overall experience, but when it comes to actual simracing, in the heat of the moment history books are just that - history. I call for enjoyable, well thought-out and carefully implemented, realistic tracks, whether or not they are representations of something that once was built in real life. --- Antti Markus Peteri 15 miles. your dim light shines from so far away - Soul Asylum, Promises Broken

Amen. --- Antti Markus Peteri 15 miles. your dim light shines from so far away - Soul Asylum, Promises Broken

> > One point you're missing, is that you can't get a certain sense of > > history,or drama from a fantasy track that you get from driving s simulated

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> > track. > If you had read my second message in this thread you'd see that I > certainly didn't miss the point but actually emphasized it at the > beginning of my 2nd message. What I fail to understand is the attitude > "real tracks or no tracks" demonstrated in this thread several times > already. As I mentioned, history can add a whole lotta depth to a sim, > and thus enrich the overall experience, but when it comes to actual > simracing, in the heat of the moment history books are just that - > history. I call for enjoyable, well thought-out and carefully > implemented, realistic tracks, whether or not they are representations > of something that once was built in real life. > --- > Antti Markus Peteri

I understand your point, and if your parameters were followed,then I would most likely buy the pack. But I've seen too many fantasy tracks that were just that, pure fantasy. Joel Willstein

Uh, yeah...that's called the Rat Race... :) Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>Eldred, > While the esses at Kyalami start out like the famous corkscrew, they >end up going up hill, while at laguna Seca you need to pull your seat belts >even tighter flying down hill. >Joel Willstein

Well, I was just referring to the first left-right combo, not the long sweeper that leads to the main straight. Eldred - who's hoping to drive Laguna this summer at the Skip Barber school... -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Talking about fantasy tracks. That Dubai track for gpl, is it a fantasy track or did it really exist? I never heard of it before, so I guess it's a fantasy track. I only drove it once, then deleted it.

> Semi fantasy Tim. > It's based on a real track but run in reverse. Can't remember which one > though. If I'm not mistaken Dubai is based on a reversed version of Red Rock which is a fantasy track papyrus made for Nascar2, which would make Dubai a semi fantasy track based on a fantasy track :-) -- Arne Martin

Semi fantasy Tim. It's based on a real track but run in reverse. Can't remember which one though. MS

I remember seeing a kart track in Dubai when I was there in 1991, but it looked nothing like the version for GPL. Except for the sand. :-)

>Talking about fantasy tracks. That Dubai track for gpl, is it a fantasy >track or did it really exist? I never heard of it before, so I guess it's a >fantasy track. I only drove it once, then deleted it. It is Red Rock squashed flat and run backwards. Red Rock is a fantasy track for NASCAR 2. From the Busch expansion pack, I think. Don McCorkle Libertarian Motorsports