Kaemmer's Nascar simulation is alive!

The Pits http://www.theuspits.com has screenshots of David Kaemmer's Nascar Racing simulation! Since their links to the larger images don't work (at least for me) here are direct links to all the images: http://www.theuspits.com/(It still says NR3) [link lost in import: /(Opponent] Manager) [link lost in import: /(Graphics] [link lost in import: /(Car] Setup Suspension) [link lost in import: /(Car] Setup Drivetrain) [link lost in import: /(Car] Setup Weight Dist.) http://www.theuspits.com/(Replay shot) This is the one we've all been waiting for - new advanced physics included. The article says that the Truck Series (which looks to be included) will have Daytona :) After running hundreds of on-line laps in GPL ovals this weekend, I can't wait to get my hands on this! --David Cook (cooknn on VROC)

oh yeah, i spoke to someone the other night on vroc who said that those pictures were very old....... pez

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>The Pits http://www.theuspits.com has screenshots of David Kaemmer's >Nascar Racing simulation! >Since their links to the larger images don't work (at least for me) here >are direct links to all the images: >http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss01.jpg (It still says NR3) >http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss03.jpg (Opponent Manager) >http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss06.jpg (Graphics) >http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss11.jpg (Car Setup Suspension) >http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss12.jpg (Car Setup Drivetrain) >http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss13.jpg (Car Setup Weight Dist.) >http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss19.jpg (Replay shot) >This is the one we've all been waiting for - new advanced physics >included. The article says that the Truck Series (which looks to be >included) will have Daytona :) >After running hundreds of on-line laps in GPL ovals this weekend, I can't >wait to get my hands on this! >--David Cook (cooknn on VROC)

im still looking for my jaw (its under the desk somewhere... : ) after seeing the 30 odd meg Video file that papy releases ages ago that saw cars start in pit lane behind the pacecar for the first few laps, cars bouncing around, and generally looking a whole lot better than N3 ended up....WOWOWOOWOWW. GPL is ace at michigan, my quickest time is now 40.93 in the lotus, but im still working on it...2 seconds quicker than last night....make sure those camber angles are set before getting on the track. pez

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>The Pits http://www.theuspits.com has screenshots of David Kaemmer's >Nascar Racing simulation! >Since their links to the larger images don't work (at least for me) here >are direct links to all the images: >http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss01.jpg (It still says NR3) >http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss03.jpg (Opponent Manager) >http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss06.jpg (Graphics) >http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss11.jpg (Car Setup Suspension) >http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss12.jpg (Car Setup Drivetrain) >http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss13.jpg (Car Setup Weight Dist.) >http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss19.jpg (Replay shot) >This is the one we've all been waiting for - new advanced physics >included. The article says that the Truck Series (which looks to be >included) will have Daytona :) >After running hundreds of on-line laps in GPL ovals this weekend, I can't >wait to get my hands on this! >--David Cook (cooknn on VROC)

I've read from Pez that the pictures are very old which leads me to believe that this is the original Nascar3. I guess it was taking too long to put together so they threw together what we now have as Nascar3(or should I say Nascar2 with 3dfx). It's nice to know someone at Papyrus is still working on the original project! Can't wait to see more of it! Vintook

but they are from the gpl phys engined game..... pez

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>oh yeah, i spoke to someone the other night on vroc who said that those >pictures were very old....... >pez >>The Pits http://www.theuspits.com has screenshots of David Kaemmer's >>Nascar Racing simulation! >>Since their links to the larger images don't work (at least for me) here >>are direct links to all the images: >>http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss01.jpg (It still says NR3) >>http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss03.jpg (Opponent Manager) >>http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss06.jpg (Graphics) >>http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss11.jpg (Car Setup Suspension) >>http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss12.jpg (Car Setup Drivetrain) >>http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss13.jpg (Car Setup Weight Dist.) >>http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss19.jpg (Replay shot) >>This is the one we've all been waiting for - new advanced physics >>included. The article says that the Truck Series (which looks to be >>included) will have Daytona :) >>After running hundreds of on-line laps in GPL ovals this weekend, I can't >>wait to get my hands on this! >>--David Cook (cooknn on VROC)

Some of us however wishes they'd get CART3 out the door before working on NASCAR3 again(the current N3 should be NASCAR 2.5, but I digress)... Moping in Ottawa... Andy

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> I've read from Pez that the pictures are very old which leads me to believe > that this is the original Nascar3. I guess it was taking too long to put > together so they threw together what we now have as Nascar3(or should I say > Nascar2 with 3dfx). It's nice to know someone at Papyrus is still working on > the original project! Can't wait to see more of it! > Vintook > > The Pits http://www.theuspits.com has screenshots of David Kaemmer's > > Nascar Racing simulation! > > Since their links to the larger images don't work (at least for me) here > > are direct links to all the images: > > http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss01.jpg (It still says NR3) > > http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss03.jpg (Opponent Manager) > > http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss06.jpg (Graphics) > > http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss11.jpg (Car Setup Suspension) > > http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss12.jpg (Car Setup Drivetrain) > > http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss13.jpg (Car Setup Weight Dist.) > > http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss19.jpg (Replay shot) > > This is the one we've all been waiting for - new advanced physics > > included. The article says that the Truck Series (which looks to be > > included) will have Daytona :) > > After running hundreds of on-line laps in GPL ovals this weekend, I can't > > wait to get my hands on this! > > --David Cook (cooknn on VROC)

Hell yeah! We need a new CART _sim_! I hope that Kaemmer (who's real love is open wheel racing I believe) can convince the other guys at Papy and Sierra to make a new CART sim soon. Hell, I'd even be happy with an N3 style remake of ICR2, with skid marks, free multiplayer, improved physics, and better graphics. Dan Belcher Team Racing Unlimited http://simcrashes.cjb.net

I'd vote for that. Mike.

Andy, Cart3 or whatever it was going to be called, has been shelved. Papyrus/Sierra is out of the open wheel sim business after GPLs dismal sales record. The only way we are ever going to get a high quality Cart sim is for a small company or group of people to do it, like DTR or the two brothers doing WSC. Joel Willstein

> Cart3 or whatever it was going to be called, has been shelved. > Papyrus/Sierra is out of the open wheel sim business after GPLs dismal sales > record. Where do you have this information from? Not saying you're wrong, but I just wonder where you got it from because I haven't heard anything from Papy/Sierra about this myself. -- Arne Martin

We were talking with Grant Reeve about it the other night on VROC. He pretty much confirmed that another Cart sim was not going to happen any time soon. More of a Sierra issue than with Papy... --David Cook > > Cart3 or whatever it was going to be called, has been shelved. > > Papyrus/Sierra is out of the open wheel sim business after GPLs dismal sales

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> > record. > Where do you have this information from? > Not saying you're wrong, but I just wonder where you got it from because > I haven't heard anything from Papy/Sierra about this myself. > -- > Arne Martin

Guess we are doomed to endure ANOTHER nascar sim while Sierra won't even warm over ICR2 like they did for Nx several times. Once again the corp. suits abandon quality for mediocaty. I hope RatBag or Motorsims or some other small creative developer, who unlike Papy, are not shackled to a corporate giant, can pick up the ball and kick Sierra's flabby butt. My wallet is waiting. Marty

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> Some of us however wishes they'd get CART3 out the door before working on > NASCAR3 again(the current N3 should be NASCAR 2.5, but I digress)... > Moping in Ottawa... > Andy > > I've read from Pez that the pictures are very old which leads me to believe > > that this is the original Nascar3. I guess it was taking too long to put > > together so they threw together what we now have as Nascar3(or should I say > > Nascar2 with 3dfx). It's nice to know someone at Papyrus is still working on > > the original project! Can't wait to see more of it! > > Vintook > > > The Pits http://www.theuspits.com has screenshots of David Kaemmer's > > > Nascar Racing simulation! > > > Since their links to the larger images don't work (at least for me) here > > > are direct links to all the images: > > > http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss01.jpg (It still says NR3) > > > http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss03.jpg (Opponent Manager) > > > http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss06.jpg (Graphics) > > > http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss11.jpg (Car Setup Suspension) > > > http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss12.jpg (Car Setup Drivetrain) > > > http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss13.jpg (Car Setup Weight Dist.) > > > http://www.theuspits.com/pics/N3ss19.jpg (Replay shot) > > > This is the one we've all been waiting for - new advanced physics > > > included. The article says that the Truck Series (which looks to be > > > included) will have Daytona :) > > > After running hundreds of on-line laps in GPL ovals this weekend, I can't > > > wait to get my hands on this! > > > --David Cook (cooknn on VROC)

Marty, This just may be the only way we will ever get a 1st rate Cart sim. WSC is being done by just two brothers,and their benchmark is GPL. If it takes off,then just maybe they will do a Champ car sim next. Only I hope it doesn't take them 3 years to do. Joel Willstein

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> As disappointed as I am, I can understand the logic used. CART/IRL numbers > are just not appealing to any marketing person, while NASCAR continues to > climb. CART does great if you take into account the global marketplace, but > seems to be weakest in the US, for some unknown reason. And I doubt any > agreement between CART and the IRL will solve this in the short term. > So is there any way we can voice our displeasure to Papy? I've bought CART > (ICR2), N1, N2, N3 and GPL, so when I tell them I'd buy CART2 I think they can > count on that. GPL has some great attributes, but it still stinks in others > (graphics being #1) - even N3's pictures are cartoonish. I think a CART game > with some kick-ass graphics, plus the physics modelling of GPL (modified for > 2K wings of course) would blow away the market. It wouldn't outsell the > NASCAR franchise, but I bet it would make money for them. > Should we put up a web petition, collecting some names, then forwarding it to > Papy? I don't want to whine (too late, I know), but I would like to show them > there's some definite interest. > This reminds me - there was an open-source racing engine being developed, but > I lost the URL. Can anyone update me on this? > Thanks. > > Guess we are doomed to endure ANOTHER nascar sim while Sierra won't even warm > > over ICR2 like they did for Nx several times. Once again the corp. suits abandon > > quality for mediocaty. > > I hope RatBag or Motorsims or some other small creative developer, who unlike > > Papy, are not shackled to a corporate giant, can pick up the ball and kick > > Sierra's flabby butt. My wallet is waiting. > > Marty > >> Some of us however wishes they'd get CART3 out the door before working on > >> NASCAR3 again(the current N3 should be NASCAR 2.5, but I digress)... > >> Moping in Ottawa... > >> Andy > Andy Backa > The only skills I have the patience to learn are those that have no real application in life. > - Calvin and Hobbes > Chewey Pages: http://home.istar.ca/~chewey

Just a thought on this.. What were the numbers of the other open wheeld sims? ICR2 and the microsoft sim? That may give you a better idea of if that will sell well or not. -- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= http://members.xoom.com/BarlowRacing/ Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

I really don't think that anything short of a sim miracle would help. What do you base your assumption on that a top flight Cart sim would "blow the market way" and turn a profit for Sierra and their holding company? How many copies are you talking about ? GPL only sold 40K+ copies, and was a complete financial disaster. Just how many people do you think would sign your web petition? You most likely would need in excess of 250,000 names. That's 210,000 more than the total of gpl purchasers. And while we're at it, just how many copies of ICR2 were actually sold ? Not enough to get Sierra to grant Papyrus the go ahead with ICR3. As we pointed out in earlier posts, the only way we are going to get a 1st rate Champ car sim, is by a small house,not a major player who needs big buck returns. Joel Willstein

As disappointed as I am, I can understand the logic used. CART/IRL numbers are just not appealing to any marketing person, while NASCAR continues to climb. CART does great if you take into account the global marketplace, but seems to be weakest in the US, for some unknown reason. And I doubt any agreement between CART and the IRL will solve this in the short term. So is there any way we can voice our displeasure to Papy? I've bought CART (ICR2), N1, N2, N3 and GPL, so when I tell them I'd buy CART2 I think they can count on that. GPL has some great attributes, but it still stinks in others (graphics being #1) - even N3's pictures are cartoonish. I think a CART game with some kick-ass graphics, plus the physics modelling of GPL (modified for 2K wings of course) would blow away the market. It wouldn't outsell the NASCAR franchise, but I bet it would make money for them. Should we put up a web petition, collecting some names, then forwarding it to Papy? I don't want to whine (too late, I know), but I would like to show them there's some definite interest. This reminds me - there was an open-source racing engine being developed, but I lost the URL. Can anyone update me on this? Thanks.

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> Guess we are doomed to endure ANOTHER nascar sim while Sierra won't even warm > over ICR2 like they did for Nx several times. Once again the corp. suits abandon > quality for mediocaty. > I hope RatBag or Motorsims or some other small creative developer, who unlike > Papy, are not shackled to a corporate giant, can pick up the ball and kick > Sierra's flabby butt. My wallet is waiting. > Marty >> Some of us however wishes they'd get CART3 out the door before working on >> NASCAR3 again(the current N3 should be NASCAR 2.5, but I digress)... >> Moping in Ottawa... >> Andy

Andy Backa The only skills I have the patience to learn are those that have no real application in life. - Calvin and Hobbes Chewey Pages: http://home.istar.ca/~chewey

Try these for size: http://arch.comp.kyutech.ac.jp/~matsu/my_products/gracer/ http://members.xoom.com/rsproject/ http://www.logichip.com.au/racesim/ http://www.379.com/v8/ Chris

i think the xoom version of rsproject has died ... mine is still active at www.logichip.com.au/racesim but it is down at the moment. It is hosted at work and they took all the servers down in case of viruses set to detonate at the turn over ...should be up in the next day or so as soon as i can find someone to turn it on. <G> always looking for people to help ... there 's a message board up for discussions ... i havent done much work on that actual code as yet ... just the input code ... most was done by Tiggs ... but no one has heard from him for a while so i guess its become my baby. I have a few ideas of where i want the project to go ... one of those is to have the thing modular so you can put in CART or F1 or any tin top you care to plug into it ... the tracks will be the same. If anyone wants to lend a hand let me know via email and we can take it from there. Shane db_wolf

> As disappointed as I am, I can understand the logic used. CART/IRL numbers > are just not appealing to any marketing person, while NASCAR continues to > climb. CART does great if you take into account the global marketplace, but > seems to be weakest in the US, for some unknown reason. And I doubt any > agreement between CART and the IRL will solve this in the short term. Would Papy maybe be better off considering world wide sales potential and developing a modern F1 sim with the GPL engine? I'd be happy with that if it's all we could get in terms of open wheel racing. If that sold well in Europe and Australia, it might offset mediocre US sales. Awwwww.....who am I kidding? I'm despairing that just when we get the computer processing and software technology to develop a truly realistic and engrossing open wheel sim, the market falls out for it and we're left with nothing of the potential we could have. Sniff...

: This just may be the only way we will ever get a 1st rate Cart sim. WSC : is being done by just two brothers,and their benchmark is GPL. If it takes : off,then just maybe they will do a Champ car sim next. Only I hope it : doesn't take them 3 years to do. : Joel Willstein One wonders where they get the time to do the modelling of all the tracks. Only one of the brothers does the graphics, so he must have a lot of late nights. Stephen

> What do you base your assumption on that a top flight Cart sim would > "blow the market way" and turn a profit for Sierra and their holding > company? How many copies are you talking about ? GPL only sold 40K+ copies, > and was a complete financial disaster. OK - I think I should have clarified that. I didn't mean in terms of total sales, I just meant that the potential is still there to come up with a sim significantly better than anything else currently on the market, including GPL. I realize GPL didn't sell well, probably due to the lack of a true F1 base in the US. This year's Indy F1 race will help, but there's a good number of years until F1 will get any significant following. If CART can get itself out of this marketing funk, then we could see another CART product in 3-5 years at the earliest (by my guestimate). The lack of a CART sim is the fault of CART more than the game producers/publishers. Yeah, I know. It just sucks, that's all. I would like to see the ICR2/CART numbers though. Yup. Agreed. Andy Backa The only skills I have the patience to learn are those that have no real application in life. - Calvin and Hobbes Chewey Pages: http://home.istar.ca/~chewey

> OK - I think I should have clarified that. I didn't mean in terms of > total sales, I just meant that the potential is still there to come up with a > sim significantly better than anything else currently on the market, including > GPL. I realize GPL didn't sell well, probably due to the lack of a true F1 > base in the US. This year's Indy F1 race will help, but there's a good number > of years until F1 will get any significant following. If CART can get itself > out of this marketing funk, then we could see another CART product in 3-5 > years at the earliest (by my guestimate). The lack of a CART sim is the fault > of CART more than the game producers/publishers. Here are the more popular reasons as to why GPL didn't sell well in any market,just not the USA. 1-way to difficult for the average gamer. If you can't be competitive in some mode right out of the box,then forget it. 2-era picked. Most casual fans have absolutely no idea who these drivers were. And can't relate to those cars and physics. 3-the biggest learning curve ever required in a sim 4-no easy way to race F3 or F2 cars unless you knew about Alison Hines Eagle Womans site. 5-Games are supposed to be fun. GPL has the highest fustration level known to man. There is absolutely no fun is constantly crashing trying to make one single lap. There are still posts here on RAS just about everyday on why they prefer some other racing sim to GPL. We're a very small minority in the auto sim racing community that spent the time and effort to learn how to drive these cars. Do you think that any more would be willing to put this effort in to learning how to drive a Champ car? I don't think so. And the theory that a Champ car would be easier to drive with all the downforce and stickier tires doesn't hold water with me. Afterall, when we were racing ICR2, all you ever read was how those cars felt like they were driving on ice. Joel Willstein

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>> OK - I think I should have clarified that. I didn't mean in terms of >> total sales, I just meant that the potential is still there to come up >> with a sim significantly better than anything else currently on the market, >> including GPL. I realize GPL didn't sell well, probably due to the lack of a true >> F1 base in the US. This year's Indy F1 race will help, but there's a good >> number of years until F1 will get any significant following. If CART can get >> itself out of this marketing funk, then we could see another CART product in 3-5 >> years at the earliest (by my guestimate). The lack of a CART sim is the >> fault of CART more than the game producers/publishers. > Here are the more popular reasons as to why GPL didn't sell well in any > market,just not the USA. > 1-way to difficult for the average gamer. If you can't be competitive in > some mode right out of the box,then forget it.

Yup. Definitely. I'm willing to bet Nascar Legends will also suffer poorly. Same as #1, but still valid. But the rewards are huge once you get it, right? What other game(s) has that kind of satisfaction level? I agree with what you're saying, but keep in mind your #2 - it's easier to keep interested in something that you can compare yourself to. Racing against Ganassi's boys on the computer would be a hoot if you saw them on the tube an hour earlier. As for the learning curve - that's Papy's fault to some extent. If an unofficial website is essential to understand how to do something (no disrespect to Alison), then Papy screwed up. But to Papy's credit they never claimed it was easy, either. So arcade and sim modes are needed - I would think that's quite possible. And the drivability - I'm willing to bet CART cars are easier to drive with the extra downforce and grip. I can't claim to know that for a fact - I've never driven either, but it does seem to make sense, even with the extra speed. I never had the problems you mentioned in ICR2/CART though. Either way, I don't think that'd hurt the appeal of the game any. Anyway, I still think the problem lies with CART not marketing itself to the point where there are many groups wanting CART licenses. If Papy makes money solely on its NASCAR properties, then I understand their logic for abandoning CART. Andy Backa The only skills I have the patience to learn are those that have no real application in life. - Calvin and Hobbes Chewey Pages: http://home.istar.ca/~chewey

Very good response Joel! I consider myself well above the average gamer and I never had the time or was willing to invest the effort into being competitive GPL. I'm not into running laps for 3-4 months just trying to stay on the track. Most of simmers I know were very enthusiastic for GPL because of the era and tracks that were included. All they (Papy) had to (could still do so) do was allow us to adjust the AI skill level. Make it possible to turn them down to where we could be competitive right out of the box and adjust upwards, as in almost every other sim Papy produces. That one thing would have sold tens of thousands more copies. Heck, do it now and re-release it and you'll sell another 40K. Not critical if AI were adjustable! If AI were adjustable you could drive as slow as needed and still see the back of the field at the finish. That's all I want. Don't mind finishing last, but allow me to see the next to last car! Let me decide when to up the skill level of the AI. -- Rich Koehler rgkoehler(at)lucent(dot)com killerk(at)home(dot)com

:> : Very good response Joel! :> Here are the more popular reasons as to why GPL didn't sell well in any :> market,just not the USA. :> 1-way to difficult for the average gamer. If you can't be competitive in :> some mode right out of the box,then forget it. : I consider myself well above the average gamer and I never had the time : or was willing to invest the effort into being competitive GPL. I'm not : into running laps for 3-4 months just trying to stay on the track. But I think this is exaggerated, and a similar response is often given. I am an "average" simmer, never approached hot lap greatness, rarely ran full races in other sims etc. However, using just a joystick, I could run consisten laps at the Glen with the demo after about two days. When I bought the full version, It only ever took about two days of practice to be able to race against the AI at any track and finish in the top ten. This is just my experience, of course, but I never found that one needed "3-4 months" to stay on the track. Now, to actually win a race... that is another matter. i agree that GPl should have had a slider for difficulty, but in the end, the challenge of the game makes it last on my HD. Even dicing for 8th place is fun with this sim, whereas running away from the AI, which almost anyone can do after some time with other sims, gets a bit dull. Stephen