Amazing...

....and people wonder why we are reluctant to involve the racing community on a large scale. http://www.simracing.com/ Shawn Wise / Papyrus

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> > ....and people wonder why we are reluctant to > > involve the racing community on a large scale. > reluctant to what ? It's Marc Nelson's site. > The total amount of work he did for the simracing community, keeping people > alert with the updates of Icr2 (his simracing project actually SOLD copies > of Icr2/CART racing because of the interest people showed for the updates > and carsets they created). Not to mention Sim***world, the TPTCC, and the > whole Theuspits.com family. What about Alison's site? It's a SRO partner. > Without people like them what would Papyrus be ? Without a community Papyrus > is nothing (but the opposite is true also). At least he's showing the > correct URL and not just the address for the patch. > I can understand the decision for not having the beta patch public, but > somehow it is a public test of the patch, so why fear a site like SRO ? > It's not Joe Bloe's Redneck N3 site, it's SRO. And please Im not dissing > anybody at Papyrus here, Im just supporting Marc and understanding that > people like him are essential to the community and Papyrus. > imho... > --

You are missing the point. And what about the fact the there are link to that web site on other racing sites? It's not put on Joe Bloe's the Redneck website, but Joe Bloe the Redneck will get it from that site along with others. We were given a chance to influence the "upgrades" and might loose that chance because some people didn't respect Papyrus wishes. Philster

> ....and people wonder why we are reluctant to > involve the racing community on a large scale. > http://www.simracing.com/ > Shawn Wise / Papyrus I agree. That was not too bright. What I especially like is that he post the original message, which specifically asks not to cross post. Some people really are clueless... Philster

*snip from simracing website* These patch(es) are not supported by Sierra Technical Support. Please visit the discussion board to receive general help. Shawn Wise / Papyrus (Surely you didn't mean us, Sean?! - Ed) *end of snip* You'll have to talk to Ed about that one. The least he could have done is spelled your name right, when the correct spelling is in plain sight=P Brian Fox http://www.geocities.com/~foxman If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal. >....and people wonder why we are reluctant to >involve the racing community on a large scale. >http://www.simracing.com/ >Shawn Wise / Papyrus

reluctant to what ? It's Marc Nelson's site. The total amount of work he did for the simracing community, keeping people alert with the updates of Icr2 (his simracing project actually SOLD copies of Icr2/CART racing because of the interest people showed for the updates and carsets they created). Not to mention Sim***world, the TPTCC, and the whole Theuspits.com family. What about Alison's site? It's a SRO partner. Without people like them what would Papyrus be ? Without a community Papyrus is nothing (but the opposite is true also). At least he's showing the correct URL and not just the address for the patch. I can understand the decision for not having the beta patch public, but somehow it is a public test of the patch, so why fear a site like SRO ? It's not Joe Bloe's Redneck N3 site, it's SRO. And please Im not dissing anybody at Papyrus here, Im just supporting Marc and understanding that people like him are essential to the community and Papyrus. imho... -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

This is unreal! You specifically asked "Please *do not* cross-post these patch(es) and/or this announcement to public web sites or newsgroups" Let it be known that I *did not* post the news on my website. :) Last thing you need is the whole racing community involved in testing. Skotty Flynn http://www.nascar-racing-sims.com (webmaster) "skotty" on WON

The site is wrong and it should had never been there. I simply regret somebody from Papyrus posting this on a public newsgroup. It should have never happened, since the situation is between Papyrus and the SRO team. And I will simply not accept to see a fellow group of people like the SRO being publicly ridiculed for probably just a misunderstanding and an error. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Sorry this happened. It was really nice of papy to share these patches early and to let us try and help. I guess this will be the end of that.

At least they left in the direct quote asking not to cross post...too bad they spelled your name wrong!!!! I think that you should ask that the item be taken down immediately and suggest here publicly that if it isn't then your more open patch testing process for N3 (and other titles) will cease. Peer pressure will get it removed pretty quickly. Sorry...I for one am appreciating the chance to get my hands dirty with the patches and do not want the opportunity to make sure my issues are addressed squandered because someone cannot read and comprehend a straightforward request...even if that person is a big contributor to the community in other ways. Marc.

Yes, it's amazing that if you wanted to keep the lid on this thing, that you would be so irresponsible to post the initial announcement in a public newsgroup. Silliest damn thing I've seen from you guys yet - except when it was posted (here in r.a.s., btw) that the CTS would be made available as a download. Also, stirring up a hornet's nest by posting a link to my site and inferring SRO will be the downfall of all open betas through Papyrus is pure horseshit. Your reluctance to embrace those who've supported you is known only to you and the company. Trying to sell it as anything else is sad...I thought better of your crew than to resort to childish stunts such as this. I think Papy needs to take a refresher course in public relations. You seem to be the class clown this week, care to sign 'em up? Cheers! Marc > ....and people wonder why we are reluctant to > involve the racing community on a large scale. > http://www.simracing.com/ > Shawn Wise / Papyrus

OK, I guess I am contributing to what could turn into a huge flame war, but I can understand the post from Papyrus. It simply points out a situation that it explicitly asked us to avoid: don't post this information on a public web site. Papy was targeting a very small focus group, r.a.s. readers, and wanted it to stay that way. It got out, so they are trying to prevent further public postings. And I think the tongue-in-cheek comment at the bottom of the SRO posting was appropriately answered with Shawn Wise's comment in this forum. It was hardly ridicule, just a little bit of head shaking. Stephen :> You are missing the point. And what about the fact the there are link to :> that web site on other racing sites? It's not put on Joe Bloe's the :> Redneck website, but Joe Bloe the Redneck will get it from that site :> along with others. We were given a chance to influence the "upgrades" :> and might loose that chance because some people didn't respect Papyrus :> wishes. : The site is wrong and it should had never been there. I simply regret : somebody from Papyrus posting this on a public newsgroup. It should have : never happened, since the situation is between Papyrus and the SRO team. : And I will simply not accept to see a fellow group of people like the SRO : being publicly ridiculed for probably just a misunderstanding and an error.

Aha. Too bad it didn't work out then. Perhaps it was a bit naiive of Papyrus to think it could stay in a small group. I think there is no middle ground between closed beta testing, with non-disclosure agreements, and fully open beta testing, at least from what I've seen in this case. Information just leaks out all over the place on the Internet. I sent a note to Marc Nelson to discuss whether or not he should keep it on his SRO site, but I can see now that it's like the little guy in Amsterdam. Stick your finger in one leak on the dam, and two more leaks spring. Stephen : On 19 Nov 1999 07:22:37 GMT, :> Papy was targeting a very small focus group, r.a.s. readers, :>and wanted it to stay that way. : Actually, that wasn't the plan at all. They were targeting a : small focus group in the n3.discussion newsgroup on : a private news server at: 206.27.21.29 . : -- : [ - rrevved at bellsouth dot net - ]

Not the plan? FWIW, r.a.s. is the biggest single public newsgroup devoted to racing on the PC. If Shawn (or Papyrus) wanted a small focus group, then why post it here...poor planning? Cheers! Marc

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> On 19 Nov 1999 07:22:37 GMT, > > Papy was targeting a very small focus group, r.a.s. readers, > >and wanted it to stay that way. > Actually, that wasn't the plan at all. They were targeting a > small focus group in the n3.discussion newsgroup on > a private news server at: 206.27.21.29 . > -- > [ - rrevved at bellsouth dot net - ]

Then it's a good thing that the original post here at r.a.s. is gone... JM Subject: Re: Amazing... Date: Fri, 19 November 1999 03:44 AM EST Not the plan? FWIW, r.a.s. is the biggest single public newsgroup devoted to racing on the PC. If Shawn (or Papyrus) wanted a small focus group, then why post it here...poor planning? Cheers! Marc

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> On 19 Nov 1999 07:22:37 GMT, > > Papy was targeting a very small focus group, r.a.s. readers, > >and wanted it to stay that way. > Actually, that wasn't the plan at all. They were targeting a > small focus group in the n3.discussion newsgroup on > a private news server at: 206.27.21.29 . > -- > [ - rrevved at bellsouth dot net - ]

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> On 19 Nov 1999 03:44:28 EST, > >Not the plan? FWIW, r.a.s. is the biggest single public newsgroup > >devoted to racing on the PC. If Shawn (or Papyrus) wanted a small focus > >group, then why post it here...poor planning? > >Cheers! > >Marc > Marc, I may be mistaken, but I thought that the original patch > announcement was over on the news server I mentioned. Did > Shawn also post an announcement to R.A.S.? > If so, I stand corrected.

Yes Ed, Shawn (or someone using Shawn's name for thos with *** theories ready :-) posted it here too, now there's a way to keep it within a small group of dedicated N3 racers :-) I must admit that I was a bit confused when I saw that post myself Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy

I see. But it's all right with you that the SRO folks publicly lambasted Papyrus? Kind of a double standard, wouldn't you agree? Personally, I don't see where SRO has been put upon at all. They just more or less ignored the conditions set by Papyrus for the use of the software and then had a hissy when Shawn called them on it. A "misunderstanding" or "an error?" What part of "Please *do not* cross-post these patch(es) and/or this announcement to public web sites or newsgroups as we would like to contain the amount of feedback that we receive through the discussion board, and we would like to assure that outdated versions of these beta patches are replaced immediately when new versions are released." is so hard to understand? Seems pretty clear and unequivocal to me. I think your friends in SRO just chose to ignore it.

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> > You are missing the point. And what about the fact the there are link to > > that web site on other racing sites? It's not put on Joe Bloe's the > > Redneck website, but Joe Bloe the Redneck will get it from that site > > along with others. We were given a chance to influence the "upgrades" > > and might loose that chance because some people didn't respect Papyrus > > wishes. > The site is wrong and it should had never been there. I simply regret > somebody from Papyrus posting this on a public newsgroup. It should have > never happened, since the situation is between Papyrus and the SRO team. > And I will simply not accept to see a fellow group of people like the SRO > being publicly ridiculed for probably just a misunderstanding and an error. > -- > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

-- Bob Curtin Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange http://www.tiac.net/users/ten10ths/ "If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green, baggy skin"

Shawn, no I wonder why in posting this to a public forum you continue to propagate a long running feud between yourself(Papyrus) and Marc Nelson. For those of us who have heard and seen what goes on behind the scenes at Papy and know the story between the two groups involved it is no surprise that this whole thing has unfolded the way it has. Whether Marc was right in posting something that was posted to a public forum(ras) or not isn't my decision to make. But Papyrus policy "Not to comment on things appearing in public News Groups" has now been thrown aside in order to attack a long standing nemesis seems rather convenient on your part. I applauded your decision to make the beta available for all those that wished to try it in order to resolve the problems that are plaguing N3 and its online play. But to bring your problem with Marc's post public in the manner you have has me wondering why the change in long standing "Company policy"! By the way Papyrus has never ever involved the "Racing community on a large scale." In fact they at times have tried to stiffle those that have tried to support them the most! As others have told me two wrongs don't make a right! So deal with your "Problems" behind closed doors, bringing them public will do nothing to help anyones cause. Pete

IMHO, Marc, your actions fall under heading of "Irresponsible Journalism" and I have deleted my bookmark to your site. -- Kenny L. #14 Generic Chevy PRC Member Wall Scrapers Racing Team > Yes, it's amazing that if you wanted to keep the lid on this thing, that > you would be so irresponsible to post the initial announcement in a > public newsgroup. Silliest damn thing I've seen from you guys yet - > except when it was posted (here in r.a.s., btw) that the CTS would be > made available as a download. > Also, stirring up a hornet's nest by posting a link to my site and > inferring SRO will be the downfall of all open betas through Papyrus is > pure horseshit. Your reluctance to embrace those who've supported you > is known only to you and the company. Trying to sell it as anything > else is sad...I thought better of your crew than to resort to childish > stunts such as this. > I think Papy needs to take a refresher course in public relations. You > seem to be the class clown this week, care to sign 'em up? > Cheers! > Marc > > ....and people wonder why we are reluctant to > > involve the racing community on a large scale. > > http://www.simracing.com/ > > Shawn Wise / Papyrus

Ed, they posted the public beta patch message on rec.autos.simulators also. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I have to side with Marc on this one, at least initially. What he and his site provide for the sim racing community is a valuable service, and in fact furthers Papyrus's business, like it or not. It also appears there is some history between you lads (Marc and Shawn)... sounds kind of silly to me. Marc, if you did this knowingly to pi$$ them off, then I'd kind of side with them on it... but I give you the benefit of the doubt. My opinion is that LESS people would see Marc's bit than would see Shawn's post here on r.a.s... so I'm a little confused about the uproar (??). I'm also surprised at some of you that jump on Marc at this convenient opportunity... SRO is a big part of supporting, improving, and sustaining the sim racing community - something from which Papyrus directly benefits greatly whether they'd like to admit it or not - and thus I believe SRO deserves at least a shade of leeway. Users are not your enemy Papy... the community is the reason you exist. I buy all your products, sometimes even if I know I won't use some of them much (e.x. NL), because I want to see you be as successful as possible to support and facilitate your continued development of the genre. Attacks on the sim racer community (not that this is necessarily one) is not going to endear you to me. Marc: I read your reply to Shawn and empathize with your defense, to a point. However, I'd be interesting in a passionless explanation of why you posted when Shawn said not to. You obviously owe me no explanation, I'm just curious as to your point of view. Ah well, no big deal anyway, this will be forgotten in due course. It's not like Papy has included us always and now will not... they are inconsistent and randomly unsupportive in the past, I see no reason this will really change that. Hambone Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

"to resort to childish stunts such as this." Unlike a mature decision to post something that was specifically told not to be posted as you did?

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> Yes, it's amazing that if you wanted to keep the lid on this thing, that > you would be so irresponsible to post the initial announcement in a > public newsgroup. Silliest damn thing I've seen from you guys yet - > except when it was posted (here in r.a.s., btw) that the CTS would be > made available as a download. > Also, stirring up a hornet's nest by posting a link to my site and > inferring SRO will be the downfall of all open betas through Papyrus is > pure horseshit. Your reluctance to embrace those who've supported you > is known only to you and the company. Trying to sell it as anything > else is sad...I thought better of your crew than to resort to childish > stunts such as this. > I think Papy needs to take a refresher course in public relations. You > seem to be the class clown this week, care to sign 'em up? > Cheers! > Marc > > ....and people wonder why we are reluctant to > > involve the racing community on a large scale. > > http://www.simracing.com/ > > Shawn Wise / Papyrus

> IMHO, Marc, your actions fall under heading of "Irresponsible Journalism" > and I have deleted my bookmark to your site. I agree, let's crucify Marc here, no need to remember all that he and his friends has done for the community over the years, that is nothing compared to this, BURN BURN BURN............. (uncle) Goy

Misunderstanding, you're telling me they cannot read or comprehend. Think a while before you post Frank. -- Michael K. Grandy Non Stop Cable Services Regional Sales > > You are missing the point. And what about the fact the there are link to > > that web site on other racing sites? It's not put on Joe Bloe's the > > Redneck website, but Joe Bloe the Redneck will get it from that site > > along with others. We were given a chance to influence the "upgrades" > > and might loose that chance because some people didn't respect Papyrus > > wishes. > The site is wrong and it should had never been there. I simply regret > somebody from Papyrus posting this on a public newsgroup. It should have > never happened, since the situation is between Papyrus and the SRO team. > And I will simply not accept to see a fellow group of people like the SRO > being publicly ridiculed for probably just a misunderstanding and an error. > -- > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Regardless of where it was posted Marc, he specifically asked it not to be put on a website. Which part was not understood? -- Michael K. Grandy Non Stop Cable Services Regional Sales > Not the plan? FWIW, r.a.s. is the biggest single public newsgroup > devoted to racing on the PC. If Shawn (or Papyrus) wanted a small focus > group, then why post it here...poor planning? > Cheers! > Marc > > On 19 Nov 1999 07:22:37 GMT, > > > Papy was targeting a very small focus group, r.a.s. readers, > > >and wanted it to stay that way. > > Actually, that wasn't the plan at all. They were targeting a > > small focus group in the n3.discussion newsgroup on > > a private news server at: 206.27.21.29 . > > -- > > [ - rrevved at bellsouth dot net - ]

I have also deleted the bookmark. Can you not just admit to your mistakes. -- Michael K. Grandy Non Stop Cable Services Regional Sales > IMHO, Marc, your actions fall under heading of "Irresponsible Journalism" > and I have deleted my bookmark to your site. > -- > Kenny L. > #14 Generic Chevy > PRC Member > Wall Scrapers Racing Team > > Yes, it's amazing that if you wanted to keep the lid on this thing, that > > you would be so irresponsible to post the initial announcement in a > > public newsgroup. Silliest damn thing I've seen from you guys yet - > > except when it was posted (here in r.a.s., btw) that the CTS would be > > made available as a download. > > Also, stirring up a hornet's nest by posting a link to my site and > > inferring SRO will be the downfall of all open betas through Papyrus is > > pure horseshit. Your reluctance to embrace those who've supported you > > is known only to you and the company. Trying to sell it as anything > > else is sad...I thought better of your crew than to resort to childish > > stunts such as this. > > I think Papy needs to take a refresher course in public relations. You > > seem to be the class clown this week, care to sign 'em up? > > Cheers! > > Marc > > > ....and people wonder why we are reluctant to > > > involve the racing community on a large scale. > > > http://www.simracing.com/ > > > Shawn Wise / Papyrus