N3: don't understand some rules!

Hi, as a newbee to NASCAR sims I got some questions about the rules in N3: 1) Until now I always thought it is not allowed to overtake when the yellow flag is out. But when I slowed down because of a yellow flag, an AI car overtook me. So is overtaking only forbidden, when the pace car is on the track? 2) Starting on pole at Talladega, I got disqualified because I "overtook" the pace car, which had disappeared behind the pit road wall... Do I have to keep exactly the same speed until the green flag is out, or what? I find it extremely difficult not to miss the green flag, especially because the AI cars often seem to accelerate before it is out. When I try to follow, they get slower, I have to break and normally that's the place, where the flag goes green. When the spotter anounces the green flag, it also seems to be a little late. How is it possible to do a perfect start?

On Mon, 4 Oct 1999 02:03:29 +0200, "Zolli"

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>Hi, >as a newbee to NASCAR sims I got some questions about the rules in N3: >1) Until now I always thought it is not allowed to overtake when the yellow >flag is out. But when I slowed down because of a yellow flag, an AI car >overtook me. So is overtaking only forbidden, when the pace car is on the >track?

The cars "Race back to the line" - this means after the yellow flag comes out - the Lead car needs to get back to the line - if the leader has just passed the line, then the yellow flies, he (and everyone else) must race around an entire lap to take the yellow. It doesn't matter what your position is - only the leader. You can also tell if you should race or slow down by whether the starter is waving the yellow flag when you go by - if he's waving it, stop racing and get in line, if it's just being shown, race back to it. It's all in the timing here. You do need to stay at that pace speed till the green comes out, then start racing. After a few races you'll pick up where the leader is in respect to the line, when they show green.

1) When you first hear that the yellow flag is out, you are still racing until you cross the start/finish line. When you cross the start finish line, you will hear your spotter say something like "OK, we're under caution, slow it down". Only then do you slow down, and after that no AI cars should pass you anymore. 2)You must not pass the pace car until it goes behind the pit wall. When I am in the lead, I stay far enough back from the pace car that I can watch it leave the track and go behind the wall, just to be sure. There is no advantage (that I know of) to stay so close to the pace car that you run the risk of passing it accidentally when it leaves the track. I don't believe you have to keep exactly the same speed until the green is out. I usually stay at the pace lap speed until I can see the flagman, then very gradually start speeding up for the green. The AI cars do a lot of wierd things. The slowing down and speeding up just before green flags seems to be a result of the "pass the pace car" thing. It seems that when the pace car leaves the track, the whole field speeds up, then slows down again to avoid passing the pace car, then speeds up again when the pace car goes behind the wall. In my experience, the only time you do a perfect start is when you are in the front row. When I'm up front, I don't listen to my spotter, I watch the flagman. It seems that the green flag comes out just before your spotter tells you, which makes sense because he can't tell you until after he sees it. So if you watch the flagman you get a bit of a jump on the competition. If you're anywhere else back in the pack, just try to stay with the car in front of you and try to remember where and when the AI cars do their speed up/slow down things at each track. Happy racing Zog

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> Hi, > as a newbee to NASCAR sims I got some questions about the rules in N3: > 1) Until now I always thought it is not allowed to overtake when the yellow > flag is out. But when I slowed down because of a yellow flag, an AI car > overtook me. So is overtaking only forbidden, when the pace car is on the > track? > 2) Starting on pole at Talladega, I got disqualified because I "overtook" > the pace car, which had disappeared behind the pit road wall... > Do I have to keep exactly the same speed until the green flag is out, or > what? > I find it extremely difficult not to miss the green flag, especially because > the AI cars often seem to accelerate before it is out. When I try to follow, > they get slower, I have to break and normally that's the place, where the > flag goes green. > When the spotter anounces the green flag, it also seems to be a little late. > How is it possible to do a perfect start?

Thanks, I got this now. Well... , I mostly got problems when I'm the leader... Ran Lowe's today and got a black flag after caution, speeding up too soon after the pace car had left, though I was in first place (and didn't overtake the pace car). Trying it again, the AI overtook me at start and later on at restart after caution! They just pass you and don't get disqualified... CU Zolli

Thanks, now I see... I try that too, but the AI passes me! So I'm not the only one, who saw this ;-) BTW, besides this behaviour, I really love the AI in N3. CU Zolli

>1) When you first hear that the yellow flag is out, you are still racing until >you cross the start/finish line. When you cross the start finish line, you will >hear your spotter say something like "OK, we're under caution, slow it down". >Only then do you slow down, and after that no AI cars should pass you anymore. If you're well back from the leader, you may have to cross the line twice -- if the yellow came out after the leader crossed the line but before you did. You'll be racing for more than one complete lap before you actually take the yellow. You will see AI cars pass you near the end of the yellow flag period if there are any who are a lap down, since lead-lap cars line up in a column to the right of lapped cars. If YOU'RE a lap down, then on the last lap of caution you'll be allowed to pass everybody and line up on the inside. Yes you do. At least, in real NASCAR racing you do. The problem with bunching is just bad beta testing. There are numbers you can change in the track's text file that change when the pace car leaves the track and where the pace car must be when the green flag comes out. I did fixes of those for a couple converted NASCAR Racing tracks in ICR2 a long time ago. I might have been persuaded to do the same thing if N3 had gripped me, but since other than graphics it's pretty much the same as N2, with added pointless wobbling of the cars so they look like toys going round the track, it's not taking too much time from my GPL frustrations. Mind you, the AI does seem somewhat better in terms of how they race. They still can't pass you if you stop in front of them, of course. I am playing N3, just not much. I expect I'll enjoy NL more. -- http://www2.cruzio.com/~keeper/toons.html - Animaniacs, P&TB, F!, etc. files http://www.armory.com/~keeper/midi.html - My own MIDI files - Updated 5 Dec.

> I am playing N3, just not much. I expect >I'll enjoy NL more. Hate to break this to you, but NL is exactly the same as N3 with a different menu system and car bodys. Everything else is exactly like N3. - James Wohlever Techware Motorsports http://techware.4mg.com/

>> I am playing N3, just not much. I expect >>I'll enjoy NL more. >Hate to break this to you, but NL is exactly the same as N3 with a >different menu system and car bodys. Everything else is exactly like >N3. yes, so I've seen. How terribly disappointing, and a step backward. Papyrus already has programming that allows things like the player car to have a pit stall at random locations, and stop-and-go penalties for shortcutting the track rather than a walled-up circuit, and local yellows on a road course -- not to mention an excellent physics model. It seems ridiculous to have made NASCAR Legends out of NASCAR Racing 2 rather than out of GPL. And looking at screen shots -- what's with all the N3 smoke? Bias-ply tires didn't create huge walls of smoke like the radials do, as I recall. This is another thing that they could have done from GPL; its tire smoke is much more like what the stock cars made before the switch to radials about 10 years ago: smoke comes sooner, but never as thick. GPL may have been a commercial failure, but that doesn't mean all of its good points should be ignored! (Though frankly, at my store, GPL sold more than most racing games, and I get a lot of customers talking to me about racing games (OK, I approach them when I see 'em looking at the racing section or the steering wheels) who say their favorite is GPL.) Makes one wonder if GPL will be the last sim, if nobody will want to make something so realistic that your average Quake player can't get into it... By comparison, everything else will be a game. Kinda like European Air War in the terms of combat flight sims. People got fed up with how difficult the planes were to fly or how easy they were to spin, yet by all accounts it's actually the most realistic sim made to date ... and it hasn't been a tremendous success either. -- http://www2.cruzio.com/~keeper/toons.html - Animaniacs, P&TB, F!, etc. files http://www.armory.com/~keeper/midi.html - My own MIDI files - Updated 5 Dec.

I don't!!! Them bastards are ruthless. I don't know how many times I've been squeezed into the wall by the nutcase in the black 3. Who it that anyway?? Dave Casey Casey94 (TEN)

>I don't!!! Them bastards are ruthless. I don't know how many times I've been >squeezed into the wall by the nutcase in the black 3. Who it that anyway?? *** Dale! :)

LOL, then the AI must be very realistic. Just wait till "*** Dale" punts you in the bumper going 10 mph faster than you...<g> -The Dude? Check out The Dude's radio show on 90.9 FM Indianapolis, B91.

>>BTW, besides this behaviour, I really love the AI in N3. >I don't!!! Them bastards are ruthless. I don't know how many times I've been >squeezed into the wall by the nutcase in the black 3. Who it that anyway?? Hey, welcome to the party pal :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

I am your "average" Quake player, but I also love GPL and N3. I think you are underestimating people just because they choose to play a variety of different games. The problem that I think GPL had was that people weren't willing to jump into the trainer cars and learn the tracks and learn to drive from them. Everyone wants to jump straight into the Ferrari or the Lotus GP cars and be great right away. I think an easier interface that allowed the picking of a field of F3 cars inside the game itself might have helped a bit. Just some thoughts! : ) Thanks, Cibb

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>Makes one wonder if GPL will be the last sim, if nobody will want >to make something so realistic that your average Quake player can't >get into it... By comparison, everything else will be a game. Kinda >like European Air War in the terms of combat flight sims. People got >fed up with how difficult the planes were to fly or how easy they were >to spin, yet by all accounts it's actually the most realistic sim made >to date ... and it hasn't been a tremendous success either. >-- >http://www2.cruzio.com/~keeper/toons.html - Animaniacs, P&TB, F!, etc. files >http://www.armory.com/~keeper/midi.html - My own MIDI files - Updated 5 Dec.

Isn't the handling of the cars different? I mean: 1970 versus 1999??? TIA Zolli

On Wed, 6 Oct 1999 01:42:47 +0200, "Zolli" >>Hate to break this to you, but NL is exactly the same as N3 with a >>different menu system and car bodys. Everything else is exactly like >>N3. >Isn't the handling of the cars different? >I mean: 1970 versus 1999??? A little. Little more under steer and the cars feel heavier.. but that's about it. - James Wohlever Techware Motorsports http://techware.4mg.com/

lol..i find that hillarious.. its dale.... guess they went a bit too far with ai realism... Dave Casey <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7teunl$a97$[email hidden]... > >BTW, besides this behaviour, I really love the AI in N3. > > I don't!!! Them bastards are ruthless. I don't know how many times I'vebeen > squeezed into the wall by the nutcase in the black 3. Who it thatanyway?? > > > Dave Casey > Casey94 (TEN) >

>>Isn't the handling of the cars different? >>I mean: 1970 versus 1999??? > >A little. Little more under steer and the cars feel heavier.. but >that's about it. > I see... The rules of NASCAR don't allow as much technical progress as in F1 or other leagues. isn't it? So this might be correct... ;-)) Thx Zolli

Yes, that's it. NASCAR places strict regulations on what you can and can't use in the car in terms of parts. This applies to suspension parts as well as engine and drivetrain parts. It's not like F1 where you spend millions to mold damn near every part of the car out of carbon fibre. These cars are just heavy, there's no way around that, and given the limitations placed on how the suspension is implemented, you're not going to see earth-shattering improvements in handling as the years go by. I for one am still very impressed that NASCAR cars can coax 700 horsepower out of a pushrod engine and run it for hours at 8000-9000 RPM. I'm also impressed that the majority of these engines last the whole race. I'd say technically, they're doing OK. Zog

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> >>Isn't the handling of the cars different? > >>I mean: 1970 versus 1999??? > >A little. Little more under steer and the cars feel heavier.. but > >that's about it. > I see... > The rules of NASCAR don't allow as much technical progress as in F1 or other > leagues. isn't it? > So this might be correct... ;-)) > Thx > Zolli

Doug Schneider <[email hidden]> wrote: : I for one am still very impressed that NASCAR cars can coax 700 horsepower out : of a pushrod engine and run it for hours at 8000-9000 RPM. I'm also impressed : that the majority of these engines last the whole race. I'd say technically, : they're doing OK. No substitute for cubic inches. I don't imagine the engine is overly stressed when it's making only about 100hp/litre. Lots of street cars now make 100hp/litre, and can runn all day at redline (witness showroom stock racing). Stephen

Well, I don't know of many pushrod small block V-8s that make 100hp/litre out of the showroom.... It's hard to compare a modern engine with these rather archaic monsters. Yes, the engine builders have today's technologies available to them, but they're still working with a basic design that is decades old, and very restrictive rules. A current in-line OHC engine with electronic feul injection can pump out the ponies, no question. Once you throw rocker-arms/pushrods, a 90 degree V-8 and a carburetor into the equation, it brings what they do to these engines into perspective. Production redlines were maybe 5000RPM, 6000 tops, for brief periods. Having them consistantly hit the mid 8000s for hours and survive takes a lot of work. Somewhere in the neighbourhood of 40 extra pounds of metal has to be added to the block to provide enough reinforcement to handle the added strain. We're comparing apples and oranges here. I figure "only about 100hp/litre" is still incredible for these cars. I guess I'm still living in the past :o) Zog Steve Ferguson wrote:

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> Doug Schneider <[email hidden]> wrote: > > : I for one am still very impressed that NASCAR cars can coax 700 horsepower out > : of a pushrod engine and run it for hours at 8000-9000 RPM. I'm also impressed > : that the majority of these engines last the whole race. I'd say technically, > : they're doing OK. > > No substitute for cubic inches. I don't imagine the engine is overly > stressed when it's making only about 100hp/litre. Lots of street cars now > make 100hp/litre, and can runn all day at redline (witness showroom stock > racing). > > Stephen