AMA Superbike - It's a process

Building a game that only appeals to the hard core sim'er in today's world is just not economic BUT that does not mean that we're just targeting the arcade player. This is a very ambitious project with a long life. Note the upgrade button in the control center. I will tell you that the technology attached to it was very expensive. But you the customer are worth it. What it means is, this product and the price attached to the game are merely a ticket of admission to this family. AMA Superbike will continue be developed well "forever". And at no charge for the foreseeable future. As we add features, new bikes, new series (i.e. 250 / 125 GP style bikes) it is all at no cost to the customer. The physics model is real. Its all physics algorithms. No kludges here. The bike wheelies, stoppies, etc correctly. Some of the subtleties such as head shake and high sides are incredibly complex but we'll do it right when it's done. I'm a rider (Ducati) and far more of the real thing is build into the game than ever before. Building a true physics model for a motorcycle is incredibly complex but our philosophy is do it right. If I start building in kluges I can't get to where I'd like to go, well maybe I can but only in the short run. My previous project "Warbirds" was a work in progress. Many of you may know I was involved in the company until we merged with IMagic (don't ask please). I did not go on with that project but moved forward with Motorsims. We had long term loyal fans at ICI, we will have that here too. Frankly, the game is fun and its certainly not the bike on a stick that others foist on the *** community. And to be commercially viable it must appeal to a broad range of players. That is why we will have different classes for different communities. I challenge you to get out and race Charles, Chris and others that took the time to get to know it. Go head to head with them in a online race and they will humble you (for awhile). That's when you will get the vision. Frankly, I would hit the upgrade button every time you play. You won't be disappointed. Thank you for your concern, Jokker (Bob McCarthy)

I've had a brain wave! Know what Motorsims should do? Sponsorship, my friend, sponsor a REAL racing driver, a very talented racing driver... :o)) Rob Swindells 3rd equal in Goldline Bearing FFord Championship (18 Points); 9 points behind Championship Leader (as of round 4 of 6) "If you're a great driver, you will get through. It's not harder than any time before." ~Martin Brundle

How about a better brain wave? Take the money they would use to sponsor people and put it into development of their product and system? :)

> How about a better brain wave? Take the money they would use to sponsor > people and put it into development of their product and system? :) But then Rob would have to swindle someone ELSE out of the $$ to buy that F3000 ride he so richly deserves...... Go, Rob, go. You're learning fast! Cheers, Steve B.

Any suggestions Rob? I would imagine you're talking about Marc Hynes. M

> Any suggestions Rob? I would imagine you're talking about Marc Hynes. *I* would imagine he's talking about the incredibly talented Rob Swindells.... -- Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/

Wow... there's a talented racing driver with the same name as you Rob... what a coincidence :P M

Whew where do I start! Lets discuss what we did and why we chose what we delivered Graphics engine We spent close to two years building a race purpose graphics engine which is an incredibly capable foundation for our suite of racing products. There are more polys in just two bikes with riders that in an entire frame of most previous generation racing simulations. The terrain (track) is a true 3D world, no tunnels here. The distant features are intact and don't build as you look forward down the track with any decent game cpu. You don't have to turn off graphic features to get a decent frame rate with any middling CPU. Every poly has the ability to be tagged with P characteristics so we can plan for true weather events, crash events, oil leaks in the racing line etc. It will allow weather events to be true including temps, humidity, rain squalls on the back straight, etc. Downside is the enormous number of polys that have to be hand seamed and apparently we missed a few. This is an easy correction and we would appreciate bug reports to our customer service people Online play As you know I was involved with Warbirds, a respected online product. Like WB, Motorsim's product is pure online to the core. No silly pretty effects at the expense of frame rate. No players with a weak ISP trashing each others network connection. We have the ability to eliminate cheating by tech inspections before each race. Databases of player scores and ranking. Classes with beginner, novice, advanced, and expert classes for differing skills and desires. The add of P(physics) difficulty going up with class. The ability to have online AI which eliminates bad play like crashing out others (punishing the bad guy while leaving the victim unharmed) or even riding backwards to spoil others play. We can run special events including 2 player per bike endurance events with voice com between rider and pit. Team play will be included and with the ability to reserve tracks for private (grudge!) play we can foster leagues. All this is possible with a product designed to the core to allow online interaction. This is a drivers sim not a fantasy sim. No famous names that you couldn't beat on your best day but real world community -player against real player. Thats racing to me. We have many friends in the racing community and I guarintee you'll race a number of the Gods of the AMA series. This BS about the drivers blowing us off is well just BS. They are some of our best friends and have supported us from the beginning. Downside is that the user interface is not retail box oriented. That why you first the enter race selection with enter/exit and then hit the big race button. You can leave a practice session go tweek you bike settings and reenter the same race. When we add environmental effects you'll have to spend serious time on the dyno to compensate on changing conditions. As the day gets warmer and the humidity goes down, whats you setup going to do??. Its also why the field builds as it does rather than a pan over a fantasy field of the greatest riders in the world. You guys are the purists of the community. I would hope that this approach would appeal to this crowd. Client/Server rules for games. Run Time Physics (P) We have two full time P guys and both fit the description "rocket scientist". Actually Matt came from Boeing and was a Rocket Scientist. Maybe just as important Matt is also a long term online gamer (para in WB). Sam has a pH.D. in vehicular dynamics. We also get input from the racing community, both riders (esp. David Sadowski) and manufactures including data (motor and chassis) logging from the bikes. We have embarked on an extremely ambitious project to describe this mathematically (algorithms). We have avoided kluges as best we can. I think that the AMA physics model is the best possible anywhere. The problem is that its not complete and may take significant time before every little nuance is depicted. Hell it probably would take a P8 running at 2000GHz to model it all. But it does model CG (rider pitch and lean), suspension geometry, Cg shift with accel and braking. Tire model includes temp and wear and certainly the traction effects to go with it. Fork and swingarm geometry is included. Go to a side view (key 4) and check out the stoppies. Wheelies work too. We did add limits for playability but with better (motorcycle) controllers we can model countersteer and remove some of the limits. If the experts want the challenge of the full unrestricted model we can offer that. That part is easy. The downside of the way we're doing it is some of the subtleties don't come through (yet). And we get nailed for not spending as much time on the rider P model. Actually I like the rider model, he does some funny things. The crucifix move is scary. Maybe we'll add a cinematic for falls and crashes but it will take unnecessary CPU. Its a race sim not a fantasy sim. We're expanding our physics efforts and recently brought Prof. Bob Woods on board. Prof. Wood and his class at UTA have won the SAE world competition 7 or 8 times in the past 20 years. They finished 2 in the worlds this year in London. Carroll Smith is the greatest racing engineer living today. He's also with us but I guess this is a 4 wheel thing. I will tell you this if you take the time to ride the bikes as they should be written (braking and accel upright, limited to no brake and accel while turning) you'll get it. The help aids may remove some of the feel but that's again easy to adjust. I will tell you the lack of physical feel is a handicap with the full P on. Its much harder than real life. I'm just trying to avoid kluges as much as possible. You should get a feel for the bike after a number of laps. You'll also get the smoothness and the feeling of speed if you give it a chance. Try the setup options until you find something that suits you style. Tracks and Bikes. Man I wanted them all but Harley just blew us off. Some of the guys suggested putting their bike model in and calling it Hardly Everwins but that is bad manners and not our style. Phoenix was dropped from the schedule so we didn't add it. Vegas was done (and I really like the track) but it was dropped too. Daytona didn't want to play without us paying FAR more than the company could afford. We're contacting a track designer and having him build the blueprint of a superspeedway sited here on out home office site. Motorsims Motorspeedway has a nice ring, don't you think The guys in Europe had it easy, the actual bikes and tracks are part (apparently) of the FIM contract. The Honda people were (hmmm what word) unhappy that they weren't even consulted on product containing there brand. We think the relationship with the track and bike guys are very important in the long view. But then again its a process not a shelf filler for 6 months. Think online here too. Release Dates I never promised anything other than a mid/late summer release. Its a process. I do respect Pappy but their new owner (Havas) is possibly changing vision. My goal with a very different approach is to sit on top of the purist world while providing entertainment value to the broad community. They are not mutually exclusive. I'm working on weather and environmental events for my next project. AMA SB will be addressed also with the new technology without charge to the current player. It's a process. Thanks for you time, Bob McCarthy (jokk)

<snip> I would personally like to say, and no this is not at all a biased point-of-view, that after the GPL game engine the Motorsims Game engine is the best I have ever seen. It is complex, and at first look it might seem arcadish, but if you look at the complexity of the bike and how it reacts to the 3d environment of the track you will understand. For those who don't know, you have a _total freedom_ of where you want to go. It is something that no other title has yet matched. Yes you can go anywhere, in the parking lot, near the stands, in the pits, in the hills at Laguna, go over bridges, etc.. The physics are quite challenging, those bikes are NOT like GP500's remember. It's like comparing a CART vs a F1 in handling. Look also at the incredible game controller support. Have you ever seen something that complex ? The opinion of the r.a.s. group would have been much more positive if it was a car sim instead of a bike (imho the market is clustered already for bike games, I mean there's almost more bike games than stockcar games on the market). The work in progress will be great in the future, I totally support the newcomer here, and I really think the people who've raced it 30minutes and returned to actually race it a little more. I've seen the updates in the beta versions, and the way they go is the good way. Take a supersport, and go fly at Road Atlanta into the esses. Or for you Tom, go see finally an accurate Sears Point :) I mean, Im not the Devil's advocate here, I think some people clearly over-reacted that it. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Hmmm, sorry about all the typo's. Bob <SNIP>

You must be on *** if you believe this!

Well MaX, I am willing to believe in this company. Actually, to show my support, I'm going out to buy a copy right now! *IF* and when they don't pull thru on *the promise*, then we'll start the trash talk. I have spent my money on worse things (from what you say, probably ***?), but I am willing to contribute to the cause. Hopefully someday soon, this will be one fine sim! :-) Cheers, Bob

I agree with Bob. I bought my copy Friday night and, like others, was a bit confused by the interface and disappointed in the game initially. But I've put some track miles down and the more I play it, the more I like it. Sure, there are from real funky parts (like the stiff-as-a-board driver with the too short legs) but it's starting to grow on me. I have only ridden a dirt bike a couple of times and have never raced, let alone been to any of the tracks in the game, but, to me, it has a very nice feel once you get used to it and the tracks seem to be very nicely modelled. It's starting to feel like the races look on Speedvision to me. I admit I want to see them do well - I like the fact that they monitor this group, I like their attitude and the fact that I live just a few miles from the company has no bearing on anything whatsoever :-) . Besides, I really want to see the Can Am game. Right now, they are talking the talk - at least we can wait to see if the walk the walk as well. Bob

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>Well MaX, I am willing to believe in this company. Actually, to show my >support, I'm going out to buy a copy right now! *IF* and when they don't >pull thru on *the promise*, then we'll start the trash talk. I have spent my >money on worse things (from what you say, probably ***?), but I am willing >to contribute to the cause. Hopefully someday soon, this will be one fine >sim! :-) >Cheers, >Bob >> You must be on *** if you believe this!

Well, I got the game today, and I'm very happy with it. It's difficult for me with my wheel and only 4 wheel knowledge, but I do enjoy trying to race

You must not require alot of a sim if you're happy with AMA. You should try GP500 and see the light!

excuse me did you ever try EA SUPERBIKE before ? If you did, then I believe you will find it hard to accept something like this................. do try it

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> I agree with Bob. I bought my copy Friday night and, like others, was > a bit confused by the interface and disappointed in the game > initially. But I've put some track miles down and the more I play it, > the more I like it. Sure, there are from real funky parts (like the > stiff-as-a-board driver with the too short legs) but it's starting to > grow on me. I have only ridden a dirt bike a couple of times and have > never raced, let alone been to any of the tracks in the game, but, to > me, it has a very nice feel once you get used to it and the tracks > seem to be very nicely modelled. It's starting to feel like the races > look on Speedvision to me. I admit I want to see them do well - I > like the fact that they monitor this group, I like their attitude and > the fact that I live just a few miles from the company has no bearing > on anything whatsoever :-) . Besides, I really want to see the Can Am > game. Right now, they are talking the talk - at least we can wait to > see if the walk the walk as well. > Bob > >Well MaX, I am willing to believe in this company. Actually, to show my > >support, I'm going out to buy a copy right now! *IF* and when they don't > >pull thru on *the promise*, then we'll start the trash talk. I have spent

my > >money on worse things (from what you say, probably ***?), but I am willing

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> >to contribute to the cause. Hopefully someday soon, this will be one fine > >sim! :-) > >Cheers, > >Bob > >> You must be on *** if you believe this!

Well, what do you know. I got gp500 today also..........and the fps are terrible on my top of the line rig. no mater what graphics option I change it too the fps is unplayable. Guess AMA wins by default for me.

MaX Do me a favor, try the TV cameras in all the games and see how the bike behaves, then tell me wich one has better physics :) Also we have analog positioning of the rider body making the control more precise. For in***pit view you can assign the look ahead feature to adjust how far ahead you usually look on turns since different people use diferent distances in real life. We have a total of 9 analog control inputs that you can map to joysticks/buttons or keys and we actually support inputs up to 32 analog axis if you have enought hands to use them. I could go on. We did put limits on our full physics model so that people will have more fun with the sim instead of being fustrated from falling all the time, but you can count on us taking those limits off (at least placing an option to take those limits out). And remember, we are going to keep on developing this title to make it better with time. As I can see from your previous posts you just don't want to believe us and that is your prerogative. You could instead point out what you don't like in a constructive way so that we can work on those aspects of the sim, we really want to make it better by all means. Miguel Parra Motorsims

>You must not require alot of a sim if you're happy with AMA. Oh please. If you don't like the game and want to say why, by all means go ahead. But this sort of childish response has no value. Joe

Well, I decided to give AMA a second chance, but unfortunately my initial impression was correct, it just plain sucks. The sound is ***poor, the crashes look fake as hell, the draw in is horrendous. I'm not going to go on any further, the game is crap. If you want to know how 4 stroke race bikes are supposed to sound in a simulation, go buy yourself a copy of EA Superbikes. If you guys at Motorsims think for just a second that your attempt at a sim even comes close to EA Superbikes or GP500, you're out of your minds. You guys need to hire some talented and experienced artists and programmers. The people you currently have working on AMA should be making games for the original Nintendo 8-bit console. Truly pathetic.

Ditto!!! Also I am really disappointed with AMA for putting their stamp of approval on this kiddie game! I raced with the AMA league for almost 10years & I cant imagine what they were thinking about when they gave it an AOK! If this is going to be a "work in progress" game they better start all over again! Sorry but 2 thumbs down on this one! My new bad decision purchase goes back today!! Cheers Thom_j.

Thank god for Electronic Boutique's return policy.

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>Well, I decided to give AMA a second chance, but unfortunately my >initial impression was correct, it just plain sucks. The sound is >piss poor, the crashes look fake as hell, the draw in is horrendous. >I'm not going to go on any further, the game is crap. If you want to >know how 4 stroke race bikes are supposed to sound in a simulation, go >buy yourself a copy of EA Superbikes. If you guys at Motorsims think >for just a second that your attempt at a sim even comes close to EA >Superbikes or GP500, you're out of your minds. You guys need to hire >some talented and experienced artists and programmers. The people you >currently have working on AMA should be making games for the original >Nintendo 8-bit console. Truly pathetic.

So basically you don't like AMA because you don't like the candy? The only thing you're able to say is "That sucks!" or "That's a masterpiece". I do respect your opinion, but the way you express this is way below par.... Funny thing is that you mention the Nintendo. As far I can see, you're just in the market for that (all eyecandy, no substance). Remco

Dude, this is totally uncalled for. If you don't like the game, or us, that's fine. Don't buy our stuff. Please. Instead, hang out in the GP500 or EA SBK threads and praise their perfection. Suckle on their goodness like a starving lamb. -MSM -- __________________________________________________________________________ Mark S. Miller "Be regular and orderly in your life, Director of Design that you may be *** and original Motorsport Simulations in your work." [link lost in import]

I'm sorry, but I need to voice the truth so people don't get caught up in the money making hype machine you're trying to create with your AMA game. It's games like yours that cause people to become starving lambs waiting for rare gems such as GP500 and SBK2000. No wonder you're holding back on the demo. You don't want people to see what your AMA game is all about. If they did, I assure you they'd never even consider buying it.

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>> [...] You guys need to hire >> some talented and experienced artists and programmers. [...] >Dude, this is totally uncalled for. >If you don't like the game, or us, that's fine. Don't buy our stuff. Please. >Instead, hang out in the GP500 or EA SBK threads and praise their >perfection. Suckle on their goodness like a starving lamb. > -MSM >-- >__________________________________________________________________________ >Mark S. Miller "Be regular and orderly in your life, >Director of Design that you may be *** and original >Motorsport Simulations in your work." >[link lost in import]