NR2k3 and cheating

Well, It finally happened to me. I was in an online race, Daytona night open server. One of the entrants was complaining about how cheating was going on, servers were allowing it and papy could fix it but was ignoring the problem and deleting his posts to forums. I figured it was another person compaining about exagerated setups and went about my race. Of course this is an open server and I am trying to learn how to setup my own cars so I start mid pack and *almost* avoid the first lap crash barely clipping the last car I needed to get by :-(. about lap 10 I get passed by this driver and another fighting for the lead, I had been watching via F2 and had seen nothing unusual so far. To my amazement, just as they are approaching the tri-oval, he types "bye" and I WATCHED him accelerate and leave the car he had been racing with. F2 showed the gap growing in tenths as if seconds were ticking on a clock, it was amazing! Well, he pulls into the pits continueing with his diatribe about cheating going on and there is the proof. I have to agree. I saved the race, reviewed it and indeed I saw a top speed for him of 215 mph running by himself. Watching from far chase you can hear him hit the accelerator, it was like he was just cruising along at 188 racing with this other car and when he put the pedal down he was gone....... I am starting to get good enough on the big tracks to qual well and have a lot of fun racing other competent drivers. I even finished second once. I would like to get good enough to be able to win. If I were to find myself in that position and see the guy I was racing make a move like that it would sure piss me off. Anyone know what this cheat is or why it still works post patch? What the hell? I mean, this won't stop me racing but sure does seem wrong if it is a code cheat. could it be prevented by Papy/Sierra if they wanted? Is it the game or the multiplayer code? Sean

replay? "McWhom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Well, > It finally happened to me. I was in an online race, Daytona nightopen

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> server. One of the entrants was complaining about how cheating was going > on, servers were allowing it and papy could fix it but was ignoring the > problem and deleting his posts to forums. I figured it was another person > compaining about exagerated setups and went about my race. > Of course this is an open server and I am trying to learn how to setup my > own cars so I start mid pack and *almost* avoid the first lap crash barely > clipping the last car I needed to get by :-(. > about lap 10 I get passed by this driver and another fighting for the

lead, > I had been watching via F2 and had seen nothing unusual so far. To my > amazement, just as they are approaching the tri-oval, he types "bye" and I > WATCHED him accelerate and leave the car he had been racing with. F2showed

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> the gap growing in tenths as if seconds were ticking on a clock, it was > amazing! > Well, he pulls into the pits continueing with his diatribe about cheating > going on and there is the proof. I have to agree. I saved the race, > reviewed it and indeed I saw a top speed for him of 215 mph running by > himself. Watching from far chase you can hear him hit the accelerator, it > was like he was just cruising along at 188 racing with this other car and > when he put the pedal down he was gone....... > I am starting to get good enough on the big tracks to qual well and

have > a lot of fun racing other competent drivers. I even finished second once. > I would like to get good enough to be able to win. If I were to findmyself > in that position and see the guy I was racing make a move like that itwould > sure piss me off. Anyone know what this cheat is or why it still workspost > patch? What the hell? I mean, this won't stop me racing but sure doesseem

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> wrong if it is a code cheat. could it be prevented by Papy/Sierra if they > wanted? Is it the game or the multiplayer code? > > Sean > > > >

> replay? >Yep, full replay and chat log. Was looking at the core.ini file and the replay telemetry was set to 0, I don't think I have much information wise. I did change two telemetry settings to 1, is that the right thing to do to be able to see more technical information from a replay? Replay is 49 MB raw, anyone know where I could post a file that size I don't have a problem with it, if there is a smaller space I could easily edit it down the the three relevent laps. Probably what I am most interested in is, who would be interested to see information of this type that could actually do something about it. I don't know what this person was talking about, that is to say I have not seen a lot of this going on. But, since I do have a demonstration of it recorded, well I think I will hold onto it :-) Can anyone clue me into just what is happening? I would think this is not an issue in any organized league and when it gets right down to it, who the hell cares if the winner of an open race cheated. Really, in my experience I consider myself lucky if I am not taken out by a newbie or wrecker, or just plain racing. My main goal in an open race is to complete it *grin*!! Sean

"McWhom" I would think this is

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> not an issue in any organized league and when it gets right down to > it, who the hell cares if the winner of an open race cheated. Really, > in my experience I consider myself lucky if I am not taken out by a > newbie or wrecker, or just plain racing. My main goal in an open race > is to complete it *grin*!! > > > Sean > > > >

215mph sounds like the restrictor plate was removed. dh

"McWhom" I would think this is 215mph sounds like the restrictor plate was removed. dh

Dave Henrie wrote:

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> "McWhom" I would think this is >> not an issue in any organized league and when it gets right down to >> it, who the hell cares if the winner of an open race cheated. >> Really, in my experience I consider myself lucky if I am not taken >> out by a newbie or wrecker, or just plain racing. My main goal in >> an open race is to complete it *grin*!! >> >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> > > 215mph sounds like the restrictor plate was removed. > dh

Can you do that in your local config file? I guess since I see servers that have plates and servers that do not, that it was a server setting and not a local one?? This just bugs me, guess I just want to understand it. My problem is I don't mess with game files enough, I understand it can be done but just don't muck around in the files much. Heh, I have enough trouble getting good at the game, let alone trying to learn how to manipulate the game. Sean

I would say that someone has cracked the 32 bit encryption. They then edit the HP numbers and alter the check sums to re-balance the file. This was done in previous versions of the game. Pete "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "McWhom" I would think this is > > not an issue in any organized league and when it gets right down to > > it, who the hell cares if the winner of an open race cheated. Really, > > in my experience I consider myself lucky if I am not taken out by a > > newbie or wrecker, or just plain racing. My main goal in an open race > > is to complete it *grin*!! > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > 215mph sounds like the restrictor plate was removed. > dh

Yes and can be easily done. but would failed to log on sierra. Replay? Eric Leblanc www.projectwildfire.com "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7rgvb.17086$[email hidden]...

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> I would say that someone has cracked the 32 bit encryption. > They then edit the HP numbers and alter the check sums to > re-balance the file. This was done in previous versions of the game. > > Pete > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > "McWhom" I would think this is > > > not an issue in any organized league and when it gets right down to > > > it, who the hell cares if the winner of an open race cheated. Really, > > > in my experience I consider myself lucky if I am not taken out by a > > > newbie or wrecker, or just plain racing. My main goal in an open race > > > is to complete it *grin*!! > > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 215mph sounds like the restrictor plate was removed. > > dh > >

Well I would have to say with N2003 that I don't know it for fact but for previous versions I do know it for a fact. Dat files were altered and the checksums matched and they did play online. The HP and traction were altered. It was mainly used at Daytona and Dega. I screamed loud and hard at the time but people didn't listen. It started in Nascar 1 and was being used right up until N2002. You altered your encryption with N2003 so I don't know whether it was hacked or not. But I'm assuming it has been. Pete "Eric Leblanc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:gynvb.28918$%[email hidden]... > Yes and can be easily done. but would failed to log on sierra. > > Replay? > > Eric Leblanc > www.projectwildfire.com

Eric Leblanc wrote:

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> Yes and can be easily done. but would failed to log on sierra. > > Replay? > > Eric Leblanc > www.projectwildfire.com > >

I am not having much luck posting the replay. I edited it down to a few laps and just over 3mb but getting an error trying to attatch it to a post in alt binaries simulators autos, says it is too big even at that size. If anyone knows of a good free or trial program that would separate it into parts or has a forum I could post it to I will. Below is the text log from the race. I did some pretty heavy editing but tried to keep the flow so it is fairly long. I left the server identifiers in here, I believe between this log and the replay I do in fact have proof that cheating is possible in this version of the game. I would like to state that I am more interesting in providing this to someone who may be able to do something with it than anything. I don't plan on going on any kind of personal campaign myself. I was there, I saw it, I saved the evidence. :-) Legend: . = someone connected ( = unrelated comments comments with no identifier = me :-) The first few lines of comments do not have any identifier to them but they were on my chat screen in the race. Attempting to join server: jolt.co.uk SS1 no 28, no site jolt online gaming:Connected. guess not just braggin about it huh? i witnessed it running a few minutes ago thats proof enough for me youll nly here about it by being sumbod's good buddy that's wrong . I bught this CD just to run it and show whats being done Dxx Jxxxx:Connected. (Dxx Jxx#32) but not tell how, (xxxxxx#19) hosts are doing it . . (Dxx Jxxx#32) people need to get pizzed off about this (Dxx Jxxx#32) yes 19 . . (Dxx Jxxx#32) go post on the forums that you want it fixed, and guess what (xxx#17) oh yea,,,ran an entire season in the league getting lapped at times . (Dxx Jxxx#32) they will delete it faster than you know Exiting pit. . (xxx#19) how long have you had the game 32? (xxx#40) so is it a modification editing somewhere a text file (xxx#17) and running good lap times myself (xxx#40) tell us that much (Dxx Jxxx#32) intstead of fixin the problem, theyd rather shut up the people thatw ant it fix . (Dxx Jxxx#32) been racing Papy for 8 years now (xxx#28) i can assure u im going to papy and post (Dxx Jxxx#32) had this game since the day it came out (Dxx Jxxx#32) I am a well known racer (Dxx Jxxx#32) you have probably heard of me many times before (xxx#19) thought you bought it to expose the cheat? ( (Dxx Jxxx#32) just sick and tired of the cheats (Dxx Jxxx#32) papy can fix it (xxx#17) amen (Dxx Jxxx#32) EA has no problems like this now (Dxx Jxxx#32) they fixed em all (xxx#28) im with u 32..i hate cheaters . (Dxx Jxxx#32) and so can Papy . (Dxx Jxxx#32) but YOU have to demand it (xxx#19) papyrus going under i believe ( manually disconnected. ( manually disconnected. manually disconnected. (xxx#28) wasn't this game bought out by someone else? (Dxx Jxxx#32) watch me, I'll run a "what seems like legit" pole speed . (Dxx Jxxx#32) then race like normal if I want (Dxx Jxxx#32) watch (xxx#17) thx for the info dxx. gotta go..keep up the fight!!!! . . manually disconnected. (xxx#19) not sure 28 but i read that this game wil be papyrus last one ( manually disconnected. . (Dxx Jxxx#32) people are gonna be racing n2003 for a LONG time! (Dxx Jxxx#32) its all we got now, so FIX THIS CRAP! . ( . . (xxx#28) hey dxx..u posting on papy website or somewhere else (xxx#28) about this crap manually disconnected. (xxx#19) you are right 32 until a software team develops a more accurate sim (Dxx Jxxx#32) they just keep deleting my posts ( ( (xxx#128) dxx jxxx, after 8 yrs still on 56k? (Dxx Jxxx#32) lol . (xxx#128) :) manually disconnected. (Dxx Jxxx#32) not sayin a wrod (xxx#128) haha (Don Jone#32) or w word either . . (Dxx Jxxx#32) a manually disconnected. . (Dxx Jxxx#32) dam my fingers are hurtin (xxx#28) lol (xxx#128) whatya do with em? (Dxx Jxxx#32) watch.... . (Dxx Jxxx#32) ill make it look legit . . (xxx#128) please dont (Dxx Jxxx#32) to show ya ( (xxx#19) 32...wut forum should we post to ? manually disconnected. . (xxx#111) what ya need posted . . (xxx#19) Wanted...Dead or Alive (xxx#19) LOL (xxx#111) yep (xxx#19) Thanks for youre info 32 . manually disconnected. . (Dxx Jxxx#32) and YES that pole speed was w the "problem" on (Dxx Jxxx#32) see how it looks legit? (xxx#128) haha (Dxx Jxxx#32) just gotta be smooth w it (Dxx Jxxx#32) and then when ya need to go......... (Dxx Jxxx#32) you can ( :Receive throughput fell to unacceptable level. . (xxx#111) dam you guys still doin THAT ( manually disconnected. . (xxx#35) with what "problem" on ( ( Good Luck All :-) (Dxx Jxxx#32) ok, watch ( ( ( (xxx#128) dont wreck ppl, 32 :) (xxx#111) outta here. seen THAT too many races (Dxx Jxxx#32) k <<<RACING>>>>> (Dxx Jxxx#32) bye -------<this is where he took off> (xxx#128) ??? manually disconnected. (xxx#3) you need a cheat (xxx#3) you cant race ( ( (xxx#155) haha lead 220 mph hahaha manually disconnected. how (Dxx Jxxx#32) ok, yall get the point (xxx#128) somewhat (Dxx Jxxx#32) you can make it look legit (xxx#155) superfuel? (Dxx Jxxx#32) pulled off track now (Dxx Jxxx#32) and retired (xxx#3) good (xxx#3) u need to how? (xxx#191) why 32 (Dxx Jxxx#32) There is a "problem" that needs to be fixed (Dxx Jxxx#32) sry about the hit 3 (xxx#191) what (Dxx Jxxx#32) Its something many are doing to cheat (Dxx Jxxx#32) complain about it and theyll fix it (Dxx Jxxx#32) but ppl need to complain (xxx#191) what is that (xxx#128) geez, i stopped playing quake cos of cheats (Dxx Jxxx#32) not telling (xxx#128) u tellin me ppl cheat here too? (Dxx Jxxx#32) how to so it, so stop asking basic (Dxx Jxxx#32) how to do it ( ( The server will leave the track in one minute. manually disconnected. ( (Dxx Jxxx#32) cyall, pls complain and post it on the forums (xxx#155) car 32 fly . is 9it setup or code? (xxx#128) thx manually disconnected. Dxxx Jxxx:Client has manually disconnected. manually disconnected. Replay saved. manually disconnected. manually disconnected. ( (xxx#327) complain about wut manually disconnected. manually disconnected. (. manually disconnected. Waiting for device to disconnect. Closing network device. Channel closed. --------> 2003/11/20-13:29:23

Well, I haven't followed this enough to know for sure, but pre-patch I experienced a similar, but different, incident. It was a SS race (don't remember if it was Dega or Tona), and the race was long enough to demand a pit stop for fuel. Every single person that tried to finish without pitting ran out of gas 2 laps short, except one guy. He finished the race, won by a huge margin, and continued to drive around after the race was over. There isn't enough drafting in the world to make up for those two laps, and I'm not even sure that's modeled in the SIM to begin with. It was a fishy scenario, for sure. Larry "McWhom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Well, > It finally happened to me. I was in an online race, Daytona nightopen

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> server. One of the entrants was complaining about how cheating was going > on, servers were allowing it and papy could fix it but was ignoring the > problem and deleting his posts to forums. I figured it was another person > compaining about exagerated setups and went about my race. > Of course this is an open server and I am trying to learn how to setup my > own cars so I start mid pack and *almost* avoid the first lap crash barely > clipping the last car I needed to get by :-(. > about lap 10 I get passed by this driver and another fighting for the

lead, > I had been watching via F2 and had seen nothing unusual so far. To my > amazement, just as they are approaching the tri-oval, he types "bye" and I > WATCHED him accelerate and leave the car he had been racing with. F2showed

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> the gap growing in tenths as if seconds were ticking on a clock, it was > amazing! > Well, he pulls into the pits continueing with his diatribe about cheating > going on and there is the proof. I have to agree. I saved the race, > reviewed it and indeed I saw a top speed for him of 215 mph running by > himself. Watching from far chase you can hear him hit the accelerator, it > was like he was just cruising along at 188 racing with this other car and > when he put the pedal down he was gone....... > I am starting to get good enough on the big tracks to qual well and

have > a lot of fun racing other competent drivers. I even finished second once. > I would like to get good enough to be able to win. If I were to findmyself > in that position and see the guy I was racing make a move like that itwould > sure piss me off. Anyone know what this cheat is or why it still workspost > patch? What the hell? I mean, this won't stop me racing but sure doesseem

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> wrong if it is a code cheat. could it be prevented by Papy/Sierra if they > wanted? Is it the game or the multiplayer code? > > Sean > > > >

Yes, but it applies to everyone in the race. Restrictor plate is _supposed_ to be host-controlled. -Larry "McWhom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Dave Henrie wrote: > > "McWhom" I would think this is > >> not an issue in any organized league and when it gets right down to > >> it, who the hell cares if the winner of an open race cheated. > >> Really, in my experience I consider myself lucky if I am not taken > >> out by a newbie or wrecker, or just plain racing. My main goal in > >> an open race is to complete it *grin*!! > >> > >> > >> Sean > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > 215mph sounds like the restrictor plate was removed. > > dh > > Can you do that in your local config file? I guess since I see servers

that > have plates and servers that do not, that it was a server setting and nota > local one?? This just bugs me, guess I just want to understand it. My > problem is I don't mess with game files enough, I understand it can bedone

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> but just don't muck around in the files much. Heh, I have enough trouble > getting good at the game, let alone trying to learn how to manipulate the > game. > > > Sean > > > > >

Larry wrote:

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> Well, I haven't followed this enough to know for sure, but pre-patch I > experienced a similar, but different, incident. > > It was a SS race (don't remember if it was Dega or Tona), and the > race was long enough to demand a pit stop for fuel. Every single > person that tried to finish without pitting ran out of gas 2 laps > short, except one guy. > > He finished the race, won by a huge margin, and continued to drive > around after the race was over. > > There isn't enough drafting in the world to make up for those two > laps, and I'm not even sure that's modeled in the SIM to begin with. > > It was a fishy scenario, for sure. > > Larry > >

I have seen that on more than one occassion, pre and post patch, SS races with built in pit stops and at least one car would not pit. I never had any proof or watched closely enough but I would get lapped pitting and never get it back even though I made a good quick stop with no tires. Fishy, very fishy :-) Never felt the need to bring it up, it just is not that big a deal to my ego. Personally I feel that if the person doing that feels better having won in that fashion then more power to him. It certainly does not affect my ego, I am happy to not crash, make a good fast pit stop and race my best race. Hell this game is fun, not life and death, or even money. In this current situation, the person doing this made a big point of it and I happen to have it recorded, figured it would make an interesting thread if nothing else. I am somewhat surprised to only see mild interest in seeing a replay and not much discussion. To me that is saying that the serious racers are happily racing in their leagues and this is not a problem there. Sean

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:10:36 -0500, "McWhom" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>In this current situation, the person doing this made a big point of it and >I happen to have it recorded, figured it would make an interesting thread if >nothing else. I am somewhat surprised to only see mild interest in seeing a >replay and not much discussion. To me that is saying that the serious >racers are happily racing in their leagues and this is not a problem there. > >Sean

I mostly race roadies in TA mode: anyone seen any suspicious stuff there? [I haven't] It might be hard in that environment to tell a honest alien from a cheating essobee without careful scrutiny... John DiFool

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:04:51 -0500, "McWhom" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I am not having much luck posting the replay. I edited it down to a few >laps and just over 3mb but getting an error trying to attatch it to a post >in alt binaries simulators autos, says it is too big even at that size. If >anyone knows of a good free or trial program that would separate it into >parts or has a forum I could post it to I will. If you can email it to me, I'll throw it up on the web. Jason

McWhom wrote: > > I am not having much luck posting the replay. I edited it down to a few > laps and just over 3mb but getting an error trying to attatch it to a post > in alt binaries simulators autos, says it is too big even at that size. If > anyone knows of a good free or trial program that would separate it into > parts or has a forum I could post it to I will. OutlookExpress ? :-) Tools-Account-News-Properties-Advanced-Posting Check the box "break apart messages larger than xxx kb" and set it to whatever the news server will accept, 350 kb is known to work on that NG, at least with my free account with Teranews Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Goy Larsen wrote:

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>. > > OutlookExpress ? :-) > > Tools-Account-News-Properties-Advanced-Posting > > Check the box "break apart messages larger than xxx kb" and set it to > whatever the news server will accept, 350 kb is known to work on that > NG, at least with my free account with Teranews > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Doh! :-( And to think I used to tell others how to use this program, man I am getting rusty. Well, as long as I already look stupid, how to hell do you get OE to put those files back together to view them? In any case. alt.binaries.simulators.autos , that is where you will find 14 posts containing the relevant part of the replay, make sure you are checking the 32 car. Of course if you want to check out my sweet Broncos car ( Painted by John Simmons, thanks again) by all means watch me in the 12 :-) Sean

McWhom wrote:

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> > Doh! :-( And to think I used to tell others how to use this program, man I > am getting rusty. Well, as long as I already look stupid, how to hell do > you get OE to put those files back together to view them? > In any case. alt.binaries.simulators.autos , that is where you will find > 14 posts containing the relevant part of the replay, make sure you are > checking the 32 car. Of course if you want to check out my sweet Broncos > car ( Painted by John Simmons, thanks again) by all means watch me in the 12 > :-)

Aah, but now you're asking something I've only done a couple of times as I don't DL stuff from usenet, I only used the posting option in an effort to support Herr von Henrie in his efforts to disrupt the people who post warez to OUR binaries NG However, if my memory isn't totally failing me here, I believe you just mark all the messages your post consists of, and then use the "DL and something" option you find when you right click on the messages......bit sketchy on that bit, sorry Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:19:43 GMT, [email hidden] (jason moyer) wrote: >If you can email it to me, I'll throw it up on the web. As promised (thanks for the email Sean): http://firebrand11.stargate.net/N2003/fastclip.rpy Watch the #32 car for a bit. Jason

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:10:36 -0500, "McWhom" <[email hidden]> wrote: >In this current situation, the person doing this made a big point of it and >I happen to have it recorded, figured it would make an interesting thread if >nothing else. I am somewhat surprised to only see mild interest in seeing a >replay and not much discussion. To me that is saying that the serious >racers are happily racing in their leagues and this is not a problem there. I race in a league but I run a lot of pickup races too. I'm surprised too there aren't more people taking notice, but IMHO as much as it sucks this type of cheating is inevitable. Unless the physics are controlled by the server there just isn't a way to stop someone with a debugger from (eventually) breaking into it, is there?

John Hilsman wrote: ... > I race in a league but I run a lot of pickup races too. I'm surprised > too there aren't more people taking notice, but IMHO as much as it > sucks this type of cheating is inevitable. Unless the physics are > controlled by the server there just isn't a way to stop someone with a > debugger from (eventually) breaking into it, is there? The problem probably isn't that you coulnd't introduce more complex sanity checks, but that if you did that users or hosts with slower connections or not that powerful machines would get into trouble, due to the amount of data being exchanged, and the depth and/or frequency of the examinations carried out. IMO the current sanity checks are probably a compromise between desirable data integrity, and user/customer friendliness. OTOH, I'd wish all the work that went into apparently only moderately successful copy protection schemes (see Larry's posting on creating an ISO and using it with Daemon Tools) would have gone into developing measures to aggravate the hacking of the data locally. That could have made the hacking a lot more difficult. Achim

Looks to me like some kind of restrictor plate hack. Neil "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:19:43 GMT, [email hidden] (jason moyer) > wrote: > > >If you can email it to me, I'll throw it up on the web. > > As promised (thanks for the email Sean): > > http://firebrand11.stargate.net/N2003/fastclip.rpy > > Watch the #32 car for a bit. > > Jason

"Combine and Decode" "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > However, if my memory isn't totally failing me here, I believe you just > mark all the messages your post consists of, and then use the "DL and > something" option you find when you right click on the messages......bit > sketchy on that bit, sorry > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Cool. Thanks! -Larry "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:19:43 GMT, [email hidden] (jason moyer) > wrote: > > >If you can email it to me, I'll throw it up on the web. > > As promised (thanks for the email Sean): > > http://firebrand11.stargate.net/N2003/fastclip.rpy > > Watch the #32 car for a bit. > > Jason

It seems to me the cure for this is easy... The INI files for the tracks are really quite tiny text files. What should happen is this: 1. The SERVER encrypts the INI files for the track. The encryption would be different each race. 2. As each player logs on, they are first sent the encrypted track file to use. Yes, it would add a _small_ delay, but these are really small files. I really don't think it would take that long, even for dial-up users. By changing the encryption each race, there is no possible way anyone on the receiving end could do anything to alter the file in time, and by changing the encryption each time there would be no way of working it out offline. Just an idea that will never be implemented :) -Larry "John Hilsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:10:36 -0500, "McWhom" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > >In this current situation, the person doing this made a big point of itand > >I happen to have it recorded, figured it would make an interesting threadif > >nothing else. I am somewhat surprised to only see mild interest inseeing a > >replay and not much discussion. To me that is saying that the serious > >racers are happily racing in their leagues and this is not a problemthere.

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> > > I race in a league but I run a lot of pickup races too. I'm surprised > too there aren't more people taking notice, but IMHO as much as it > sucks this type of cheating is inevitable. Unless the physics are > controlled by the server there just isn't a way to stop someone with a > debugger from (eventually) breaking into it, is there? >

I'm so glad to see I'm not the only one who took notice of this.. I posted a message a while back about this very same issue and I was flamed and called a bad driver and a rookie and so forth..

SPEED wrote: > I'm so glad to see I'm not the only one who took notice of this.. I > posted a message a while back about this very same issue and I was > flamed and called a bad driver and a rookie and so forth.. Yeah, I have been following this group and threads like this for a while. I had seen almost all conversations get to the point that the complainant is accused of sour grapes, poor driving, or worse. It is a shame, and also why I have taken pains to point out that I don't feel I have been cheated out of a win. I was aware of the issues and ended up in the right place at the right time. I had the opportunity to get the proof that is so often asked for and I took it. Then brought that here to this NG to see what would happen. It is interesting, now I am just curious if anyone "in charge" cares or is willing to do anything to try and prevent this. To add to that, I think that if this hole is plugged another will, or already has been found. Hell, I don't even really know, I just had this thrown in my face basically and knowing it was a bone of contention for many I put it here. Sean

In article <[email hidden]>, "McWhom" <[email hidden]> writes: >Replay is 49 MB raw, anyone know where I could post a file that size I don't >have a problem with it, if there is a smaller space I could easily edit it >down the the three relevent laps. Drop me an e-mail if you still need a host, Sean... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <3Xsvb.9245$yM6.7240@lakeread06>, "Larry" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Well, I haven't followed this enough to know for sure, but pre-patch I >experienced a similar, but different, incident. > >It was a SS race (don't remember if it was Dega or Tona), and the race was >long enough to demand a pit stop for fuel. Every single person that tried >to finish without pitting ran out of gas 2 laps short, except one guy. > >He finished the race, won by a huge margin, and continued to drive around >after the race was over. > >There isn't enough drafting in the world to make up for those two laps, and >I'm not even sure that's modeled in the SIM to begin with. >

I'll give you a possible explanation for fuel scenarios. The person driving wasn't that fast, or he's running a lower gear ratio than everyone else. You didn't say if it was a fixed setup. My 'proof'? I've run several full length races in GPL(both online and offline), and never had a problem with fuel. It wasn't until I started racing in the Masters of GPL league that I even knew there WAS a fuel problem on some cars. If I ran 46 gallons, I'd still have 5 or more gallons left. Apparently, the faster guys could not finish a full race on the 46 gallons allowed. So, we had to run intermediate races, with shift-r allowed. There were several races where my Ferrari teammates had to stop for fuel, but I could run flag to flag. If those had been strict GP races, I might have won more than one...<g> In a SS N2K3, a slower driver/car can stay with the pack because of the draft(trust me), and possibly save enough fuel to finish without a stop. I recall running a long Atlanta race in N2002 where I came *that* close to winning on fuel mileage. I fell short by about one lap. Either everyone else had to stop, and I almost didn't, or everyone needed two stops, and I almost did it with one. I'm sure if I had, people would have accused *me* of cheating, when I wouldn't have the first clue how to do so... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote:

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> In article <[email hidden]>, "McWhom" > <[email hidden]> writes: > >> Replay is 49 MB raw, anyone know where I could post a file that size >> I don't have a problem with it, if there is a smaller space I could >> easily edit it down the the three relevent laps. > > Drop me an e-mail if you still need a host, Sean... > > Eldred

Thanks Eldred :) The relevant laps are up thanks to Jason Moyer. If there is any interest in the whole replay and you are willing to host it I can upload it no problems, though up on this crappy cable connection is probably only 128. Sean

I watched the replay, he was obviously cheating since he was turning 7400 rpm's. Since he was the only one it was not server induced. Not sure if he was running unrestricted but his rev limiter was not working and he should have blown up after a couple laps. "McWhom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> EldredP wrote: > > In article <[email hidden]>, "McWhom" > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > >> Replay is 49 MB raw, anyone know where I could post a file that size > >> I don't have a problem with it, if there is a smaller space I could > >> easily edit it down the the three relevent laps. > > > > Drop me an e-mail if you still need a host, Sean... > > > > Eldred > > Thanks Eldred :) The relevant laps are up thanks to Jason Moyer. If

there > is any interest in the whole replay and you are willing to host it I can > upload it no problems, though up on this crappy cable connection isprobably > only 128. > > Sean > >

I thought replays of rpms on cars other than the driver who created the replay were of some default. Not set for each car. Did the patch change that? -- Tim White "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qTUvb.90894$[email hidden]... > I watched the replay, he was obviously cheating since he was turning 7400 > rpm's. Since he was the only one it was not server induced. Not sure if he > was running unrestricted but his rev limiter was not working and he should > have blown up after a couple laps.

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 11:02:13 +0100, Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote: >OTOH, I'd wish all the work that went into apparently only moderately >successful copy protection schemes Copy protection schemes don't take any time to develop by the game designers. They're third-party products. Not that I approve of them. Jason

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> It >wasn't until I started racing in the Masters of GPL league that I even knew >there WAS a fuel problem on some cars. If I ran 46 gallons, I'd still have 5 >or more gallons left. Apparently, the faster guys could not finish a full race >on the 46 gallons allowed. So, we had to run intermediate races, with shift-r >allowed. There were several races where my Ferrari teammates had to stop for >fuel, but I could run flag to flag. If those had been strict GP races, I might >have won more than one...<g>

I have the utmost respect for most everyone involved in MoG, but it baffles me that a league called Masters of Anything would dumb down the sim like that. Jason

Eldred, Maybe in some cases, but not this one. It wasn't even close. No gear would have ever made up for this. Plus the guy led most of the race, being one of those who run the low line for the entire friggin' race. There is no legal explanation for what I witnessed that particular race. -Larry "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <3Xsvb.9245$yM6.7240@lakeread06>, "Larry" <[email hidden]>writes: > > >Well, I haven't followed this enough to know for sure, but pre-patch I > >experienced a similar, but different, incident. > > > >It was a SS race (don't remember if it was Dega or Tona), and the racewas > >long enough to demand a pit stop for fuel. Every single person thattried > >to finish without pitting ran out of gas 2 laps short, except one guy. > > > >He finished the race, won by a huge margin, and continued to drive around > >after the race was over. > > > >There isn't enough drafting in the world to make up for those two laps,and > >I'm not even sure that's modeled in the SIM to begin with. > > > > I'll give you a possible explanation for fuel scenarios. The persondriving > wasn't that fast, or he's running a lower gear ratio than everyone else.You > didn't say if it was a fixed setup. My 'proof'? I've run several fulllength > races in GPL(both online and offline), and never had a problem with fuel.It > wasn't until I started racing in the Masters of GPL league that I evenknew > there WAS a fuel problem on some cars. If I ran 46 gallons, I'd stillhave 5 > or more gallons left. Apparently, the faster guys could not finish a fullrace > on the 46 gallons allowed. So, we had to run intermediate races, withshift-r > allowed. There were several races where my Ferrari teammates had to stopfor > fuel, but I could run flag to flag. If those had been strict GP races, Imight > have won more than one...<g> > In a SS N2K3, a slower driver/car can stay with the pack because of the > draft(trust me), and possibly save enough fuel to finish without a stop.I > recall running a long Atlanta race in N2002 where I came *that* close to > winning on fuel mileage. I fell short by about one lap. Either everyoneelse > had to stop, and I almost didn't, or everyone needed two stops, and Ialmost

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> did it with one. I'm sure if I had, people would have accused *me* of > cheating, when I wouldn't have the first clue how to do so... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Member > Screamers Racing League > IICC League > GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 > ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 > Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress > N2k3 rank:in progress > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

What's needed is a program run by the server that monitors every car and detects impossible dynamics. For example, the simplest example is a car accelerating at a rate that should be impossible at that speed/wing setting. "John Hilsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > I race in a league but I run a lot of pickup races too. I'm surprised > too there aren't more people taking notice, but IMHO as much as it > sucks this type of cheating is inevitable. Unless the physics are > controlled by the server there just isn't a way to stop someone with a > debugger from (eventually) breaking into it, is there? >

jason moyer wrote: ... > Copy protection schemes don't take any time to develop by the game > designers. They're third-party products. Hi Jason, well you know what I mean. Time, money, manpower. Achim

Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote in news:bpq9rh$1ral6n$1@ID- 99765.news.uni-berlin.de:

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> jason moyer wrote: > ... >> Copy protection schemes don't take any time to develop by the game >> designers. They're third-party products. > > Hi Jason, > > well you know what I mean. Time, money, manpower. > > Achim > >

To add to that...Sierra buys copy protection from Sony. Sierra's budget for Papyrus releases includes the cost of the copy protection from Sony. So money that Sierra 'could' have released to Papyrus for further development instead went to Sony. Time is money to developers, if you don't have the money, you don't have the time. dave henrie

"SPEED" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:H_Pvb.2693$[email hidden]: (snip)... and I was > flamed and called a bad driver and a rookie and so forth.. > Maybe they misread the header and thought that 'I' was posting it....... (shaddup Goy!!!) <wink wink> dave henrie

Dave Henrie wrote:

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> > "SPEED" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:H_Pvb.2693$[email hidden]: > > (snip)... and I was > > flamed and called a bad driver and a rookie and so forth.. > > > > Maybe they misread the header and thought that 'I' was posting it....... > > (shaddup Goy!!!) > > <wink wink> > > dave henrie

AussieV8's !!! Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

I have not seen this replay, but I have seen these "rocket cars" on fixed setups races before, only at super speedways, but I guess that is the only place that something like this would work. (At the smaller tracks, being able to turn a car that fast would be beyond some of these cheaters.) Does this replay prove that there is some form of cheating going on? I know in the past this has all been blamed on poor driving, so does this help to put some of those claims aside? Also someone has mentioned the bottom feeding that is going on at the SS as well. This has been around since N4, and in my opinion causes more accidents then anything.

btgoss wrote:

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> I have not seen this replay, but I have seen these "rocket cars" on > fixed setups races before, only at super speedways, but I guess that > is the only place that something like this would work. (At the > smaller tracks, being able to turn a car that fast would be beyond > some of these cheaters.) > > Does this replay prove that there is some form of cheating going on? > I know in the past this has all been blamed on poor driving, so does > this help to put some of those claims aside? > > Also someone has mentioned the bottom feeding that is going on at the > SS as well. This has been around since N4, and in my opinion causes > more accidents then anything.

Well, I have been looking around and there is definetly a "now known" cheat for SS only. Basically it appears to remove the restrictor plate. Checking the Papy forum, under "How to report wreckers" thread there is a fairly long conversation. My take on what I have read is this.....Admins will be banning anyone caught using this cheat, if you want to race the open servers on a SS then you should be aware that someone may be using this cheat. It will not be fixed unless some outside person makes a patch. Sean

In article <loWvb.13403$yM6.9110@lakeread06>, "Larry" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Eldred, > >Maybe in some cases, but not this one. It wasn't even close. No gear would >have ever made up for this. > >Plus the guy led most of the race, being one of those who run the low line >for the entire friggin' race. > >There is no legal explanation for what I witnessed that particular race.

Ah, ok... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (jason moyer) writes:

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>> It >>wasn't until I started racing in the Masters of GPL league that I even knew >>there WAS a fuel problem on some cars. If I ran 46 gallons, I'd still have >5 >>or more gallons left. Apparently, the faster guys could not finish a full >race >>on the 46 gallons allowed. So, we had to run intermediate races, with >shift-r >>allowed. There were several races where my Ferrari teammates had to stop >for >>fuel, but I could run flag to flag. If those had been strict GP races, I >might >>have won more than one...<g> > >I have the utmost respect for most everyone involved in MoG, but it >baffles me that a league called Masters of Anything would dumb down >the sim like that.

Like I said - maybe 70% of the cars would run out of fuel...so THEN what? I guess they had to do SOMETHING. I had a couple of the hotshoes jump on me, basically saying something like, "Well, if you drove it RIGHT(ed. note:meaning fast, with high engine revs), you'd see the problem." My response was "What good does it do to be fast, if you'll run out of fuel? And, isn't fuel mileage part of *real* racing?" Nobody responded... :-) They also bitched about constantly blowing up engines in the Honda, and saying it was the most unreliable car. I had always thought the *Lotus* was the most fragile, and said so. I also mentioned that in the 3 or 4 years I'd been running, I'd only blown *2* engines online in ANY car, and one was due to a faulty shifter button. That didn't endear me to the 'elite' either.<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.