Let your opinion be counted!

I have a poll setup to see what kind of Sim Racers Association people would be interested it. If you would like to take the poll, here's the link... http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/sra/ There has been a lot of talk about starting one up, this might help those people to decide what direction to take. -- Sean Higgins "HigPup" "Hollywood" for R6 "Hollywood__NWO" for ZONE http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/hsts2/ HSTS, Powered by ATI Rage 128 http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/ http://www.colormation.com Colormation (sponsor of H.O. Motorsports) http://www.atitech.ca ATI Technologies

Since the people here have actually no idea of what's happening, Here is a little recap: Nascar Racing 3 is due out. The NROS runs on the TEN Network, now renamed POGO. The NROS use Nascar Racing 2 on dedicated servers, with rankings and a centralized chat system. Those 3elements are needed for the good health and future of online racing. VROC-type "matching" servers can't compare to this. You have to experience both to understand. With the arrival of Nascar Racing 3, everything might be thrown out of the window and go backwards, because the community that was build 4years ago with the Hawaii Network and NROS will be dropped for "matching" servers. It's a step backwards of 4years now. To this you need to add many other factors, the possible death of the NROS, etc.. On the TEN.games.simulations.nascar newsgroup on the TEN newsgroup server the idea came to form an organized association that would represent the NROS drivers and create links between them and NASCAR/SIERRA. Sierra owns the NROS and the NROS is supposed to be NASCAR's 14th division. Sean wants to know if this association could be good for you people racing other sims. I personally see no real point in short term, since the issues the SRA wants to talk is mostly about the NROS, N3 and overall online racing, but feel free to vote if any of you care. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I think it'll be overly obvious what the big hit will be since the choices are biased a bit ;-) NASCAR3 is all by it self. The next selection combines all the open wheeled sims in to one. A non biased survey would have had NASCAR set as a generalized "closed wheel" sim. Or, you could have had NASCAR3 as a specified selection so long as you separated the other open wheeled sims. currently: NASCAR3, Open wheeled sims, ect.. Should have been: NASCAR3 GPL Indycar ect.. Mike

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> I have a poll setup to see what kind of Sim Racers Association people would > be interested it. If you would like to take the poll, here's the link... > http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/sra/ > There has been a lot of talk about starting one up, this might help those > people to decide what direction to take. > -- > Sean Higgins > "HigPup" > "Hollywood" for R6 "Hollywood__NWO" for ZONE > http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/hsts2/ HSTS, Powered by ATI Rage 128 > http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/ > http://www.colormation.com Colormation (sponsor of H.O. Motorsports) > http://www.atitech.ca ATI Technologies

-- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

Thats at least one side of the view ymenard. Four years ago there was basically no racing at all online. Now, there is quite a bit of it. Perhaps its not all running on large dedicated servers with ranking systems, but it does happen. And its quite enjoyable. Also, seems to be rather loaded poll so far. If it only represented Nascar3 or other Nascar racing sims, then it should NOT be titled Sim Racers Association, rather Sim NASCAR Racers Association because thats what it is. > > I have a poll setup to see what kind of Sim Racers Association people > would > > be interested it. If you would like to take the poll, here's the link...

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> > http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/sra/ > Since the people here have actually no idea of what's happening, Here is a > little recap: > Nascar Racing 3 is due out. The NROS runs on the TEN Network, now renamed > POGO. The NROS use Nascar Racing 2 on dedicated servers, with rankings

and > a centralized chat system. Those 3elements are needed for the good health > and future of online racing. VROC-type "matching" servers can't compare to

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> this. You have to experience both to understand. With the arrival of > Nascar Racing 3, everything might be thrown out of the window and go > backwards, because the community that was build 4years ago with the Hawaii > Network and NROS will be dropped for "matching" servers. It's a step > backwards of 4years now. To this you need to add many other factors, the > possible death of the NROS, etc.. > On the TEN.games.simulations.nascar newsgroup on the TEN newsgroup server > the idea came to form an organized association that would represent the

NROS > drivers and create links between them and NASCAR/SIERRA. Sierra owns the > NROS and the NROS is supposed to be NASCAR's 14th division. Sean wants to > know if this association could be good for you people racing other sims. I

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> personally see no real point in short term, since the issues the SRA wants > to talk is mostly about the NROS, N3 and overall online racing, but feel > free to vote if any of you care. > -- > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

when you write this stuff, you should point out that you work for TEN and thus might be biased. as far as i'm concerned, i've tried them both and find VROC-style to be far superior to the TEN network. Why? cost is the biggest reason. after like 2 months on TEN, I've spent more than the game cost in the first place. that's ridiculous. and the pick-up races are just as much crash-fests as anything on a matching server. The real action in either case is a league. (which i sadly haven't had time to join- yet). Once you've joined one, it shouldn't matter whether it's through a matching server (VROC) or a service like TEN. As far as I could tell, the only good thing about TEN was that it calculated an LPI. A potential good thing was the experience ratings- but in practice, it was just a way to get you to spend more time and money running races you didn't really want to just so you could eventually join the races you did want to join.... seemed like it verged on being a scam to me. With VROC, you can join any race- if it's a closed race, it's passworded; if you really are a hazard out there.... !eject thanks for the *free* internet play, Papy- a nice step *forward*. I, for one, won't miss TEN a bit. -mark >>Nascar Racing 3 is due out. The NROS runs on the TEN Network, now renamed POGO. The NROS use Nascar Racing 2 on dedicated servers, with rankings and a centralized chat system. Those 3elements are needed for the good health and future of online racing. VROC-type "matching" servers can't compare to this. You have to experience both to understand. With the arrival of Nascar Racing 3, everything might be thrown out of the window and go backwards, because the community that was build 4years ago with the Hawaii Network and NROS will be dropped for "matching" servers. It's a step backwards of 4years now. To this you need to add many other factors, the possible death of the NROS, etc..

Basically, I think an organization of all Simracers would work.....As long as membership dues are properly used and everything is properly set up and organized. I saw the ups and downs in the RC racing but it was obvious that the major companies have power. However, Sim racing could develop types of racing just like RC cars. Onroad ovals with N3 (N2 or whatever) Roadracing with CART (AKA ICR2), Vintage racing with GPL, Dirt track racing with the upcoming DTR..... Will it work ????????????? Flame away ! -- Tim A. Deatherage "Admitted Sim ***" > The whole idea of a specific association is bankrupt. A simracing > organisation should allow all simracers, regardless of preference. If it got > too big, one could think about splitting, but not before. > Jan. > ---- > > I think it'll be overly obvious what the big hit will be since the > > choices are biased a bit ;-) > <snip>

<snip> Unfortunately it mostly likely will make a MAJOR difference. The reason is based on affordable bandwidth. An individual can afford cable, but some cable compainies limit your upload bandwidth to 128kbps This is only enough to serve approximately 8 clients using the N2 (which we assume will be close to N3) protocal. With GPL it might serve more due to the ini options that control packet rate. (No idea if packet rate control will be in N3) The point is that to host a "full" field (be that 32 or 43) requires more bandwidth than many people can afford to purchase as an individual.

The whole idea of a specific association is bankrupt. A simracing organisation should allow all simracers, regardless of preference. If it got too big, one could think about splitting, but not before. Jan. ---- <snip>

Agree - with about 200 post a day there is no reason to split this group up. Rec.autos.simulators is enough for the moment. Andre On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 01:40:33 +0200, "Jan Verschueren"

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>The whole idea of a specific association is bankrupt. A simracing >organisation should allow all simracers, regardless of preference. If it got >too big, one could think about splitting, but not before. >Jan. >---- >> I think it'll be overly obvious what the big hit will be since the >> choices are biased a bit ;-) ><snip>

I'll take N2 on Ten over GPL on Vroc any day of the week. And no, I don't work for Papyrus or Ten. -- Don Burnette Dburn on Ten http://members.home.net/d.burnette/Sportsman%204.htm

I do not work for TEN anymore :) Not true. Read above, the warping is always worse on non-dedicated servers, without prediction code. Per example, the bigges NROS league, OSCAR, who has over 1000members, will NOT continue to race on the N3 system if they do not implement dedicated servers, because they understand how bad the racing will be and the backward step we will take. Anybody who raced on Hawaii or the NROS understands it's a big step backward if they do not implement dedicated servers/rankings/centralized chat. Those things appeared on both Hawaii and the NROS, so it HAS to be a step backward for N3. We are loosing 3major and important things in a community, and the things we will gain are the ability to have more than 24drivers. It's the only addition to what we have on the NROS and had on Hawaii. Hawaii had 32+drivers, remember. But for the simple gamer, it will be a step forward. For him, the satisfaction of racing against people will be enough, but for US, we would gladly pay for those 3 vital needs. We will still have to make them understand that it's not perfect, and two previous service had better multiplayer racing. Try a thing. Load GPL at an oval track. Now try the NROS at an oval track. The difference is incredible, both because of the excellent prediction code and also the dedicated servers. I mean they run on SUN Microsystems, not Pentium 2 PC with a Cable-modem like on GPL. But that's what N3 might be. (might is the word, but it's the one with the most chances). Many NROS people will simply not race on their system, but create their own hubs and LAN independantly. This will SEPERATE the community into many places, this is NOT the way to go. We need a centralized place where we can join races in dedicated servers. We will PAY for this. Me, and at least 10,000 people. Because that's the number we have on the NROS without any publicity. Now imagine with publicity how big the number could grow. 20$ per month, that's 2.4million dollars for the system. TEN already has the whole architecture for it. Why not continue. What will happen with our rankings we have worked FOUR years to create ? If you only knew how important rankings are for many of us. If not, let's say anybody can change their screename all the time. You will agree with me that open multiplayer will bring 1000times more kids who couldn't pay for TEN, AOLers who have incredibly bad connections, lamers who weren't interested in paying for the NROS, Backward drivers because I can bet you 5$ that backward + reverse driving will be enabled like GPL (on the NROS you can), Keyboard drivers, and people who would want to cheat. If you don't have a centralized chat with screenames and rankings, how the heck will you know who you are racing against ? Somebody could just switch screename the next race, nobody will know about him. He could impersonnate quality NROS drivers, and create havoc. There is soo many issues here, the SRA would be there to represent everybody. That's including the newbies and making them understand the world of online multiplayer racing. It is the future. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

> I'll take N2 on Ten over GPL on Vroc any day of the week. How about the reverse? If GPL was on TEN, with low warp, ranking system etc, would you prefer to race GPL or N3 on a VROC type system? Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

N3. -- Don Burnette Dburn on Ten http://members.home.net/d.burnette/Sportsman%204.htm > > I'll take N2 on Ten over GPL on Vroc any day of the week. > How about the reverse? If GPL was on TEN, with low warp, ranking system > etc, would you prefer to race GPL or N3 on a VROC type system? > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

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> > The real action in either case is a league. (which i sadly haven't had > time > > to join- yet). Once you've joined one, it shouldn't matter whether it's > > through a matching server (VROC) or a service like TEN. > Not true. Read above, the warping is always worse on non-dedicated servers, > without prediction code. Per example, the bigges NROS league, OSCAR, who > has over 1000members, will NOT continue to race on the N3 system if they do > not implement dedicated servers, because they understand how bad the racing > will be and the backward step we will take.

There is no way we can convince someone who doesn't understand anything out side of TEN. With GPL 1.0 I had *Full Fields* of cars with *NO* warp. The TEN drivers don't realize that their systems are setup to run on TEN and not set up to run on the GPL systems. If they would set their systems up for GPL then the quality of racing would be better then what TEN gave them.

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> > thanks for the *free* internet play, Papy- a nice step *forward*. I, for > > one, won't miss TEN a bit. > Anybody who raced on Hawaii or the NROS understands it's a big step backward > if they do not implement dedicated servers/rankings/centralized chat. Those > things appeared on both Hawaii and the NROS, so it HAS to be a step backward > for N3. We are loosing 3major and important things in a community, and the > things we will gain are the ability to have more than 24drivers. It's the > only addition to what we have on the NROS and had on Hawaii. Hawaii had > 32+drivers, remember.

This again is a closed minded statement. I ran on Hawaii and absolutely love the GPL type of connection. We do have a centralized Chat with dedicated servers. As far as the Rankings system, you know with out a doubt that TEN's system is very easy to manipulate. Without the rankings system, you'll have to figure out who are the top drivers another way. Maybe a single way that looks more at the drivers ability rather then a way to keep the customer online longer. As far as keeping track... The GPLRC is starting a system sort of like a rankings system already. It's in it's primitive form but starting to look good. > But for the simple gamer, it will be a step forward. For him, the > satisfaction of racing against people will be enough, but for US, we would > gladly pay for those 3 vital needs. We will still have to make them > understand that it's not perfect, and two previous service had better > multiplayer racing. For the "Gamer", Yes, all they need is a place with Pick up races. For the serious driver, even on TEN, the serious drivers did little else out side organized scheduled races. (Leagues, invitationals). We in the GPML "league" have had a couple "Gamers". One lasted just one race while the other is starting to understand how serious a league is. This gamer/rookie serious driver, is becoming a very good serious driver. This brings us to a new style of rankings system, one that works toward the drivers ability rather then the customer. As far as gladly paying for such a system, It's working quite well with out paying for it. > Try a thing. Load GPL at an oval track. Now try the NROS at an oval track. > The difference is incredible, both because of the excellent prediction code > and also the dedicated servers. I mean they run on SUN Microsystems, not > Pentium 2 PC with a Cable-modem like on GPL. But that's what N3 might be. > (might is the word, but it's the one with the most chances). While the Ovals were starting to gain popularity, they were being run on these systems that you describe (Pentium bases, ect..). The races I were in had 0 "Zero" warp. The only problems we had were from the converted tracks them selves.. being able to run through solid walls, and the such. With luck, the converted N3 tracks (hope there are going to be converted) will eliminate that. The prediction code isn't our problem, we don't have any problems with prediction. It's GPL's collision programming that we have a problem with. If N3 is using the same collision setup, then you'll have the same problem even if it's on a dedicated SUN. If N3 doesn't use this collision programming, then N3 will be better then GPL in that respect. But running on the dedicated SUN won't make a difference.

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> Many NROS people will simply not race on their system, but create their own > hubs and LAN independantly. This will SEPERATE the community into many > places, this is NOT the way to go. We need a centralized place where we can > join races in dedicated servers. We will PAY for this. Me, and at least > 10,000 people. Because that's the number we have on the NROS without any > publicity. Now imagine with publicity how big the number could grow. 20$ > per month, that's 2.4million dollars for the system. TEN already has the > whole architecture for it. Why not continue. What will happen with our > rankings we have worked FOUR years to create ? If you only knew how > important rankings are for many of us. If not, let's say anybody can change > their screename all the time.

Again, we have a centralized place. GPL-GSB. I'm sure that Larry has been considering writing something for N3. We haven't heard from him in quite some time so I can "assume" that he's working on a N3 GSB as we speak. Even if he isn't, Someone will write something. I'm all for having Papy set up their own service. I *Think* I saw something mentioned that Papy will have their own system up anyhow. (I may be wrong on that). As far as rankings, They are not worth as much as you say. Reason being is that they are way too easy to manipulate. Besides that, even if you did start the rankings system over, the better drivers will still make it to the top very quickly and the "gamers" will still stay at the bottom. That discussion was talked about close to a year ago on TEN's NG.

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> You will agree with me that open multiplayer will bring 1000times more kids > who couldn't pay for TEN, AOLers who have incredibly bad connections, lamers > who weren't interested in paying for the NROS, Backward drivers because I > can bet you 5$ that backward + reverse driving will be enabled like GPL (on > the NROS you can), Keyboard drivers, and people who would want to cheat. If > you don't have a centralized chat with screenames and rankings, how the heck > will you know who you are racing against ? Somebody could just switch > screename the next race, nobody will know about him. He could impersonnate > quality NROS drivers, and create havoc. There is soo many issues here, the > SRA would be there to represent everybody. That's including the newbies and > making them understand the world of online multiplayer racing. It is the > future.

As far as the counter race drivers and the crashers and such, That is a GPL fault. With GPL you have to type "!eject <name>" and that driver is gone for the race. In GPL, to my knowledge, there is nothing that says a driver can just change his name and re enter a race and do the same thing. In N3, we don't know if that same system is going to be used or if a system that checks other things (out side of the drivers name) first before the driver connects. That type of system that eliminates specific drivers no matter what their log on name is could be implemented directly into N3 instead of into a SUN server. Till N3 comes out, and/or unless you have special insight on how Papy is designing the N3 multi player system, there is no reason to speculate. I do like the idea of a centralized racing club such as the SRA. I only hope that the SRA doesn't have "exclusive" rights to using N3. As it stands with GPL, GPL-GSB is the place to be. If someone were to write an application that was better then GPL-GSB, then people would migrate there. This would bring better and better applications, centralized, places to be at. Again, the only place to be for N2 is on TEN. There are other places to be but they don't compare only because TEN has exclusive rights to the NROS, and very tight controls on what anyone else can say about using N2. If the SRA had exclusive rights to say they run using N3 specifically then the quality of service would be as bad as TEN. If there is no Exclusive rights to the SRA to use N3, then there will be competition among online racing environments that will eventually bring to the on line racing world specifically what you and I are after.... A real and true future to Online racing. So, The best thing to do is to wait till N3 is released first. second, forget about your rankings because they are only good for TEN and not for you. Third, Press the issue of allowing any organization to say that they race specifically N3. And finally, hope that other organizations will grow so that we will have a future out side of a single entity such as TEN. I'd like to add that I think it would be better to think of Online racing as entity separated from NASCAR Winstin cup racing. Much like the Bush racing is a separate entity. I think that a Online Racing organization should not include a rankings system because that only puts Online racing right beside Quake playing. There should only be a ranking system among racing series/leagues. The series can keep track of points and such per season and keep track of accumulated statistics from with in the series. But place a points system that never stops collecting points and you're looking at a gaming service rather then a sport with a future. my ideal centralized ranking system will keep track of statistics for a year and then zero out those numbers. Then it would be up to the individual to keep track of his/her accumulated statistics for accumulating years. Much like NASCAR or FIA or SCCA or ect... It is truly easy to do as I have records of my first league race on Hawaii all the way to last nights GPML race on GSB. Mike -- ========================================= Mike ... read more »

I think you just proved a point :) To some drivers that complain about VROC being no good, or not as good as TEN... I bet most, if not all of these "NASCAR and TEN is best" people would say the same as you just did.. They would choose to follow the racing Sim, not the network. Or another way to say it. If N2 was on VROC and GPL was on TEN, the NASCAR people would say that VROC was the best there was and say that TEN is not good and give reasons why TEN is no good by listing the the exact same reasons they say that TEN is good now. "Rankings are no good but for gamers", "a dedicated server is not the way to go racing online", ect.. ;-)

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> N3. > -- > Don Burnette > Dburn on Ten > http://members.home.net/d.burnette/Sportsman%204.htm > > > I'll take N2 on Ten over GPL on Vroc any day of the week. > > How about the reverse? If GPL was on TEN, with low warp, ranking system > > etc, would you prefer to race GPL or N3 on a VROC type system? > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

-- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

Michael Barlow <[email hidden]> wrot > There is no way we can convince someone who doesn't understand anything > out side of TEN. With GPL 1.0 I had *Full Fields* of cars with *NO* > warp. The TEN drivers don't realize that their systems are setup to run > on TEN and not set up to run on the GPL systems. If they would set > their systems up for GPL then the quality of racing would be better then > what TEN gave them. What's with this ? You think that because they race Stock-cars on the NROS that they all have a redneck attitude and never raced GPL ? Most of us there know about GPL, and MANY have tried GPL extensively. I mean cmon, why do you think they are all rednecks there and don't care about open-wheel racing ? Just ask anybody who tried both. Only you I have seen saying that the warp in GPL is better than on the NROS. Everybody else know that with the prediction code and the stability of the dedicated servers it's much more enjoyable on the NROS. Just take GPL cars and race on ovals, the warp is incredible with GPL. And no it's not because of my PC is not tweaked for it. The GPL cars warp in the corners 5-6feet each side all the time. It NEVER happens on the NROS, the cars warp at a maximum of 1-2feet. It's a BIG different on oval racing since we go side-by-side often into the corners. > This again is a closed minded statement. I ran on Hawaii and > absolutely love the GPL type of connection. Yep same here, I love GPL racing, it's more warpy than the NROS but it's still very good. But there is better. > We do have a centralized Chat with dedicated servers. Those are different dedicated servers than on the NROS. Your talking about SUN Microsystem servers at 3place in the US (the 3 NROS Zones, in San Fransisco, Chicago and Boston) that have a small number of hops because they are really close to the main internet backbones. This is way different than a Pentium running GPL with a cable-modem. > As far as the Rankings system, you know > with out a doubt that TEN's system is very easy to manipulate. Like how ? The NROS Ranking system is very complicated and as good as it can be. The manipulation is very difficult and done by maximum a dozen people. All the people in the top100 are people that REALLY have the talent to be in the top100. We use website like http://www.elworth.u-net.com/nrosrank.htm to go even further with NPI, and Average rankings. I've polled NROS drivers, and we need Rankings. Your the first person that actually says you don't really care about rankings. It's a nessecary thing for N3. Don't compare GPL to N3. N3 will be total chaos. You will have SO many more trouble-makers than in GPL. It's normal, N3 is a more mass-market title. There will be 1000times more lamers, AOLers, Keyboard drivers (N3 is much more easy than GPL), Kids (they don't care about GPL, it's different when it's Nascar), backward drivers, etc.. We NEED to know how those people are. There will be thousands of people racing online, not 50 or so per night like in GPL. how do you track of the people's abilities to race ? Especially if anybody can change their screename all the time. Rankings are nessecary. We would PAY for that. > Without > the rankings system, you'll have to figure out who are the top drivers > another way. Maybe a single way that looks more at the drivers ability > rather then a way to keep the customer online longer. As far as keeping > track... The GPLRC is starting a system sort of like a rankings system > already. It's in it's primitive form but starting to look good. Don't compare GPL to N3. They both race online but the community is much different. N3 is thousand times more accessible to Mr. everybody than GPL, because of the nature of the game engine/stock-car history in the US. It's a bummer that it's like that, but please stop comparing. > For the "Gamer", Yes, all they need is a place with Pick up races. For > the serious driver, even on TEN, the serious drivers did little else out > side organized scheduled races. (Leagues, invitationals). There is many serious drivers racing pickup races. You probably should go back to the NROS to see this. Pickup racing is superior in # to league racing on the NROS. It's a fact. > While the Ovals were starting to gain popularity, they were being run > on these systems that you describe (Pentium bases, ect..). The races I > were in had 0 "Zero" warp. The only problems we had were from the > converted tracks them selves.. being able to run through solid walls, > and the such. Those problems are not related. And in fact it opens the fact that anybody can cheat on GPL, something that many people know but nobody will say. >With luck, the converted N3 tracks (hope there are going > to be converted) will eliminate that. The prediction code isn't our > problem, we don't have any problems with prediction. You probably forgot the 5-6feet warping on both sides racing ovals, the squared skid marks on GPL. Just look at those skid marks, you know the Zigzaggng vvvvvvvvvvvv . Calculate the lenght and you will see how warpy the cars are in GPL. Serious side-by-side racing is difficult there. Still, you can race 10cars 1second apart on the NROS at talladega and never have problems with cars warping like that.> > It's GPL's > collision programming that we have a problem with. If N3 is using the > same collision setup, then you'll have the same problem even if it's on > a dedicated SUN. If N3 doesn't use this collision programming, then N3 > will be better then GPL in that respect. But running on the dedicated > SUN won't make a difference. It shows the superiority of the NROS another time. Better collision detection. > Again, we have a centralized place. GPL-GSB. I'm sure that Larry has > been considering writing something for N3. We haven't heard from him in > quite some time so I can "assume" that he's working on a N3 GSB as we > speak. Well, there might be something else also :) Centralized chat is the most easy thing to include in the 3vital needs for the NROS online community. > the better > drivers will still make it to the top very quickly and the "gamers" will > still stay at the bottom How can you say this ? Who will know when it's total chaos, and every good driver can't be found because of the thousands of newbie people ? Anybody could impersonnate others using screenames. How can you know ? There won't be any form of ranking possibily, how can you know who is who, and what are those abilities ? How can you know that the guy your racing against is really him, when screename impersonnation will probably be something that happens (from my experience using the won.net SIERRA service).

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> As far as the counter race drivers and the crashers and such, That is > a GPL fault. With GPL you have to type "!eject <name>" and that driver > is gone for the race. In GPL, to my knowledge, there is nothing that > says a driver can just change his name and re enter a race and do the > same thing. In N3, we don't know if that same system is going to be used > or if a system that checks other things (out side of the drivers name) > first before the driver connects. That type of system that eliminates > specific drivers no matter what their log on name is could be > implemented directly into N3 instead of into a SUN server. Till N3 > comes out, and/or unless you have special insight on how Papy is > designing the N3 multi player system, there is no reason to speculate.

Why do you think Im speculating ? > I do like the idea of a centralized racing club such as the SRA. I > only hope that the SRA doesn't have "exclusive" rights to using N3. As > it stands with GPL, GPL-GSB is the place to be. If someone were to > write an application that was better then GPL-GSB, then people would > migrate there. Yepo. If a service offered for GPL dedicated servers (real ones) and rankings people would move there. Even if you had to pay a little fee for it. Because it's superior, as the NROS shows it. Unfortunately we have a big chance of doing a backward step with N3, because it won't have those things. > Again, the only place to be for N2 is on TEN. Not true. N2 can be raced almost anywhere, from the MSN Zone, to Kali, Mplayer, etc.. It's normal they are deserted, because as you said above with GPL "If someone were to write an application that was better then those then people would migrate there." That's exactly what happened, people migrated to the NROS because it was superior. Exclusive rights have nothing to do with that. There is even better things than the NROS, I know people who race 39drivers in a LAN-type server with N2. > If the SRA had exclusive rights to > say they run using N3 specifically then the quality of service would be > as bad as TEN. No, it would be as good as TEN. But the point of the SRA is really not to create exclusive things. I mean cmon we are a simple customer-based association that would like to get answers from SIERRA/NASCAR about the NROS, issues we have with it in the past/present/future and what will N3 change the NROS to. If the changes they do to the NROS don't please the association, we will ourselves create a better system using dedicated servers/rankings/centralized chat. > I'd like to add that I think it would be better to think of Online > racing as entity separated from NASCAR Winstin cup racing. Much like > the Bush racing is a separate entity. I think that a Online Racing > organization should not include a rankings system because that only puts > Online racing right beside Quake playing. Im sorry but we all think of the NROS as a seperate division of NASCAR. We are NASCAR's 14th division. And the point about rankings is bollocks. WinstonCup drivers have rankings. Any form of motorsports has rankings and statistics. Carreer statistics, season rankings, etc... So they are playing a game ? > There ... read more »

I tried to reply to this post. But, the further I went in to it, the further I seen that you are comparing TEN connection system to the GPL sim and then the GPL connection system to NROS. apples to oranges then back to oranges to apples. I've tried to reply to correct you but the deeper i got the more I realized what is being compared. You did make a point that I didn't consider though... ---- Don't compare GPL to N3. N3 will be total chaos. You will have SO many more trouble-makers than in GPL. It's normal, N3 is a more mass-market title. There will be 1000times more lamers, AOLers, Keyboard drivers (N3 is much more easy than GPL), Kids (they don't care about GPL, it's different when it's Nascar), backward drivers, etc.. We NEED to know how those people are. There will be thousands of people racing online, not 50 or so per night like in GPL. how do you track of the people's abilities to race ? Especially if anybody can change their screename all the time. Rankings are nessecary. We would PAY for that. ---- I still say that there's no reason to pay for something that you can keep track of your self. I did it when I was on TEN, and it wasn't by setting a minimum rank to join the races. and that was while the member numbers were in the 8,000- 10,000 range. -- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

> Just ask anybody who tried both. Only you I have seen saying that the warp > in GPL is better than on the NROS. Everybody else know that with the > prediction code and the stability of the dedicated servers it's much more > enjoyable on the NROS. I've tried both. NROS sucked, period. I got tired of paying quite a bit of money per month [$13] to have a crappy system whose ranking servers went down, bad pings, etc. FYI, prediction code is NOT something that is just limited to dedicated servers like on NROS. Prediction code is client-side code and works just as well whether you are on a dedicated massive server or a small fry listen server. However, prediction code on NROS is probably a bit more solid and predictable than that in GPL simply because the NROS physics are as demanding as those in GPL. As you increase the complexity of the physics engine, it also increases the complexity of many other subsytesm within the game, and prediction code is one of them. > Just take GPL cars and race on ovals, the warp is incredible with GPL. And > no it's not because of my PC is not tweaked for it. The GPL cars warp in > the corners 5-6feet each side all the time. It NEVER happens on the NROS, > the cars warp at a maximum of 1-2feet. It's a BIG different on oval racing > since we go side-by-side often into the corners. GPL also wasn't tweaked to run ovals either. The only true fair comparison you can do between the two pieces of software is on the road tracks, end of story. And I can guarentee that you can get right up in tight with folks on a road course in GPL and be fine as long as all parties concerned have good solid connections [which are a definete plus in any arena, be it NROS or be it a VROC style system]. > > This again is a closed minded statement. I ran on Hawaii and > > absolutely love the GPL type of connection. > Yep same here, I love GPL racing, it's more warpy than the NROS but it's > still very good. But there is better. Not currently there isn't. But thankfully there is, for the moment, both NROS and GPL style online racing. Both have their place. Both have their supporters. And both bring enjoyment to a vast majority of people. > > We do have a centralized Chat with dedicated servers. > Those are different dedicated servers than on the NROS. Your talking about > SUN Microsystem servers at 3place in the US (the 3 NROS Zones, in San > Fransisco, Chicago and Boston) that have a small number of hops because they > are really close to the main internet backbones. This is way different than > a Pentium running GPL with a cable-modem. Sure. Those servers are capable of running multiple races per server. I'd guess with pretty good certainity that a single race could easily be hosted on a P2/P3/Athlon class machine easily on a cable modem with good success for around 15 to 20 racers. Remember, each race eats into the resources of those large servers, and each race, each chat session, etc all eat into the bandwidth going into those servers. The only real reason you absolutely need such large servers and massive amounts of bandwidth is to host multiple races on the same server. GPL and other games that have dedicated servers only run one race at a time. > Like how ? The NROS Ranking system is very complicated and as good as it > can be. The manipulation is very difficult and done by maximum a dozen > people. All the people in the top100 are people that REALLY have the talent > to be in the top100. We use website like > http://www.elworth.u-net.com/nrosrank.htm to go even further with NPI, and > Average rankings. I've polled NROS drivers, and we need Rankings. Your the > first person that actually says you don't really care about rankings. It's a > nessecary thing for N3. What? They changed it? I remember before I gave up NROS all the "RANKINGS SUCK" type posts and that "We should use so and so's system" instead. NROS drivers may need or want rankings, probably a lot of the reason they have put up with the NROS system as it is. This is fine, not everyone is the same. But, not everyone needs ranking. And Mike isn't alone, I've said it for over a year. Rankings are not necessary. Hell, I know who the best drivers in the GPL world are and one is Mike, at least in an F3 Ferrari he is. :), without rankings. And no, rankings aren't necessarily a necessary thing for N3 either. For NROS style system, yeah, they probably are. For a non-centralized system, no not really. For folks who are running their own user leagues, it definetly doesn't mean too much either. > Don't compare GPL to N3. N3 will be total chaos. You will have SO many > more trouble-makers than in GPL. It's normal, N3 is a more mass-market > title. There will be 1000times more lamers, AOLers, Keyboard drivers (N3 is > much more easy than GPL), Kids (they don't care about GPL, it's different > when it's Nascar), backward drivers, etc.. We NEED to know how those people > are. There will be thousands of people racing online, not 50 or so per > night like in GPL. how do you track of the people's abilities to race ? > Especially if anybody can change their screename all the time. Rankings are > nessecary. We would PAY for that. True, and as you say its much much easier than GPL. Maybe thats a benefit of GPL thats overlooked. It automatically weans out those that aren't willing to put time, money and "blood" into the hobby. But um, ymenard, people CAN change their screenname which means that their rankings get reset. Its fairly obvious as you become a member of a community who are the rabble rousers, who are those that truly are offensive drivers that go backwards. AOLers, Keboard drivers, Kids, etc. all have just as much right to use NROS or other systems, get online and race, etc as you do. Are they any good? Probably not. Do they have bad connections? Maybe if they are on AOL. Will they change if helped by the community? Sure, a majority will, others wont. > There is many serious drivers racing pickup races. You probably should go > back to the NROS to see this. Pickup racing is superior in # to league > racing on the NROS. It's a fact. Yeah, also in GPL. So whats your point? > Those problems are not related. And in fact it opens the fact that anybody > can cheat on GPL, something that many people know but nobody will say. Sure they are. I can remember invisible walls, and weird things at many of oval on NROS> Say, did they ever fix the Phoenix track? Did they ever fix the warping at Darlington? Sure, I suppose people can cheat. Big deal. I'm not racing for money either or to make a living. Its a hobby, I enjoy it and if someone is cheating it will become pretty darn apparent.

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> >With luck, the converted N3 tracks (hope there are going > > to be converted) will eliminate that. The prediction code isn't our > > problem, we don't have any problems with prediction. > You probably forgot the 5-6feet warping on both sides racing ovals, the > squared skid marks on GPL. Just look at those skid marks, you know the > Zigzaggng vvvvvvvvvvvv . Calculate the lenght and you will see how > warpy the cars are in GPL. Serious side-by-side racing is difficult

there. > Still, you can race 10cars 1second apart on the NROS at talladega and never > have problems with cars warping like that.> Lets see. GPL did not ship with ANY oval tracks. Only road courses. Therefore I'd suspect and guess that the prediction code and driving model were tuned and optimized for road courses only. Besides, the physics engine of GPL makes writing prediction code harder to be prefect than for N2. And who cares, side-by-side racing isn't the end all be all [I use that phrase way too much damnit] of racing, whether it be real life or simulated racing. > It shows the superiority of the NROS another time. Better collision > detection. Not really. Has absolutely nothing to do with the system. Because in fact, other than being able to host multiple racers per server, the dedicated server/client model is no different at all between a GPL dedicated server and NROS. Oh well, except that the GPL servers only have ONE connection to the server, not 3 connections to 3 different servers taking multiple paths to the server and your connection to TEN gets hosed if any one of the 3 go down. But frankly, Papy just basically screwed the monkey when it came to collision code in GPL. Live and learn. > Well, there might be something else also :) Centralized chat is the most > easy thing to include in the 3vital needs for the NROS online community. Yes, can't have much of a community without being able to communicate. :) > How can you say this ? Who will know when it's total chaos, and every good > driver can't be found because of the thousands of newbie people ? Anybody > could impersonnate others using screenames. How can you know ? There won't > be any form of ranking possibily, how can you know who is who, and what are > those abilities ? How can you know that the guy your racing against is > really him, when screename impersonnation will probably be something that > happens (from my experience using the won.net SIERRA service). Its kinda obvious. Unless the dude is really good both in impersonating and in driving ability, it'd be hard to duplicate a JayVee, or a Mike Barlow or a Wolgang Woegner. Might be pretty easy to emulate my driving if you can consistantly be about 2 seconds slower than all the fast people, but hard to match my [attitude]. ;) However, you do bring some valid points up here. And thats the slight benefit of a service like won.net as opposed to the totally open VROC, is that like TEN, won.net has a complete user account/password validation system. Unless someone is stealing passwords or hacking the validation servers of won.net you won't have tons of impersonating screen names. I haven't seen too much of it on mplayer.com or heat.com, those I am more fimiliar with ... read more »

Ok Franky boy, you get what you want, poll comes down now. I guess if it isn't done the way YOU want it, it crap. Oh well, at least I was DOING something besides talking. :) -- Sean Higgins "HigPup" "Hollywood" for R6 "Hollywood__NWO" for ZONE http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/hsts2/ HSTS, Powered by ATI Rage 128 http://www.atitech.ca ATI Technologies

Uh.. Sean what are you talking about ? I simply informed the r.a.s. group about the situation here happening on the NROS newsgroup. Most of the people here are not aware of what happened in that newsgroup, where do you came with those ideas ? Re-read the threads also, btw it's quite old a week ago, you shouldn't be replying to those anymore. Please stop your bashing on me Sean, it's pretty stupid. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."