N3 vs DTR

Just out of curiousity, how many of you diehard NASCAR fans are e***d about the upcoming release of Dirt Track Racing? It's going to be hitting the shelves at about the same time as NASCAR 3, and I can guarantee you that as an open-wheel fan and a dirt track fan, I will be buying DTR before I plunk down money for N3. Then again, I'm not a real NASCAR fan, and I REALLY love dirt-track action. I know a lot of you out there ARE real NASCAR fans, and I know a lot of NASCAR fans also dirt fans, so I was wondering if DTR is as eagerly-anticipated as NASCAR 3. I know that until we see the goods and read the reviews, the jury may be out on Ratbag's ability to produce a satisfying sim -- Papy always gives us solid, satisfying sims, while Ratbag's Powerslide title was definitely more of an arcade racer. And, until we see the reviews and hear the reports, our knowledge of DTR is limited to the company's "party line" on the game's overall goodness, plus a few screenshots -- and NASCAR Revulsion taught us that eye-candy ain't all it's cracked up to be -- but for me, DTR is currently the #1 most anticipated sim of 1999 (the late, lamented Trans Am Racing previously held this spot, but that is not to be). So, with NASCAR 3 coming out soon (and sure to be greeted with much hoopla), is anybody besides me all worked up over the impending release of Dirt Track Racing, or is it in danger of getting lost in the shuffle? -- John Bodin Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/

DTR is set to be released in less than a month ? Im awaiting for it, but the bar is high-raised by SODA: Off-Road in terms of realism and physics of the game engine. Whatever it will be in graphics, I personally don't care, I want to see how depth the game engine is :) -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

>> Just out of curiousity, how many of you diehard NASCAR fans are e***d >> about the upcoming release of Dirt Track Racing? It's going to be hitting >> the shelves at about the same time as NASCAR 3 >DTR is set to be released in less than a month ? I think it's due out in October -- maybe the end of October, perhaps, but it's coming soon. It's supposed to be entering final beta testing this coming week, which I think means they're just wringing out a few last details before going gold. -- JB

> Just out of curiousity, how many of you diehard NASCAR fans are e***d > about the upcoming release of Dirt Track Racing? I'm a NASCAR fan, a dirt track fan, and an open wheel fan. About the only form of motor racing I don't enjoy watching is motorcycles. But the Sim that I am MOST e***d about right now is AMA Superbike. The reason is because I have very little interest in racing imaginary computer opponents, and Motorsims appears to be the only company right now that is dedicated to multiplayer racing. The others seem to think of multiplayer as an after thought. "Oh yeah, it'll work with enough bandwidth, good luck." Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

I disagree with that. GPL was designed as a multiplayer game. N3 has had extensive work on its multiplayer issues, etc. Perhaps some of these developers are NOT going full-bore on a fully dedicated system ala TEN, but that isn't the end all be all of online racing or *** either. it'll work with enough

I'm very e***d about DTR groeing up going to the track every week but it will not make its way on to my hard drive before N3 unless it is released b4 N3. Phillip

Chris \"Hollywood\" Schletter Well Chris, if that was their "design", to turn us all loose on the internet trying to find each other via ICQ, then they need to hire some new "designers". LOL! Until Allison Hine and the VROC gang came around, I used to log on to TEN to find people to race GPL. Was than part of their big plan too? Giving a sim the ability to be ran on the net is not all there is to "designing" a multiplayer framework. GPL is more than a year old yet there are no online tournaments or ranking systems other than user ran leagues. There is more incentive to play bingo on Pogo.com than there is to compete in GPL. Sierra dropped the ball, but it looks like Motorsims has picked it up and is running with it. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

I'm going to buy whichever comes out first, to be honest. But I have to say that I am looking forward to DTR more than N3. I have seen basically what N3 has to offer, so it is somewhat of a known commodity. N legends seems more interesting to me than N3. But I will have them all.... oh yes.. I shall have them -- The Mocker *****LEGAL NOTICE TO ALL BULK E-MAILERS***** NOTICE TO BULK EMAILERS: Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, 227, any and all nonsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 US. E-mailing denotes acceptance of these terms.

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>> Just out of curiousity, how many of you diehard NASCAR fans are >e***d >> about the upcoming release of Dirt Track Racing? >I'm a NASCAR fan, a dirt track fan, and an open wheel fan. About the >only form of motor racing I don't enjoy watching is motorcycles. But >the Sim that I am MOST e***d about right now is AMA Superbike. The >reason is because I have very little interest in racing imaginary >computer opponents, and Motorsims appears to be the only company right >now that is dedicated to multiplayer racing. The others seem to think >of multiplayer as an after thought. "Oh yeah, it'll work with enough >bandwidth, good luck."

From what I've heard, you're going to be pleasantly surprised with Dirt Track Racing -- Ratbag's first title, Powerslide, works VERY nicely in multiplayer mode over the Internet, and from the reports I've read, Ratbag has made major improvements in this area with the Dirt Track Racing game. I think these folks understand the importance of on-line racing, and they're making DTR with on-line *** in mind. I think the preview on the IGN-PC site (http://pc.ign.com/news/10037.html indicated that there might even be a "spectator" mode, which will allow non-participants to watch races in progress, similar to watching a deathmatch in Quake (this might have been mentioned on one of the other Aussie sites -- can't remember for sure) . I could be wrong about this last part, but I think I remember seeing it someplace. If they're thinking along these lines, you know they've got Internet *** on the mind. -- JB

>I think the preview on the IGN-PC > site (http://pc.ign.com/news/10037.html) indicated that there might >even be a "spectator" mode, which will allow non-participants to watch >races in progress, Now THAT would be AWESOME! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

GPL was very POORLY designed then, GPL sucks at multiplier, I tried it a couple of times and I couldn't stop laughing at how pathetic it was online, what a joke!

Maybe he should have changed what he said from "multiplayer" game to massive "multiplayer" game. GPL was NOT designed with "multiplayer" as a primary objective. I have YET to see a better online racing service or game than TEN/NROS btw. Bill / Amish on TEN

<fx: watches hook sink slowly into the deep, still water underneath the trees> Andrew McP... fresh from a problem-free 17 lapper at WG

Yup you can hear the boat motor a mile away. Not only that but the worm is long dead.:) Pickerel Dave

I think N3 will hit the shelves first, and I know a lot of folks will pick it up regardless -- DTR were to hit the shelves first, it might be ignored in favor of N3 when it hit the shelves. Since DTR is scheduled to come out after N3 (I think), it probably won't be overshadowed too much. Sometimes it's good to be first, sometimes it's better to come along a little later -- and in this case, once everybody realizes what you've already realized (that is, that N3 will be more of what we've already seen, more or less), I think that DTR's arrival will be pretty well-received. Hopefully, anyway -- and hopefully it will be good! <G> -- JB >I'm going to buy whichever comes out first, to be honest. But I have to say >that I am looking forward to DTR more than N3. I have seen basically what N3

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>has to offer, so it is somewhat of a known commodity. N legends seems more >interesting to me than N3. But I will have them all.... oh yes.. I shall >have them >-- >The Mocker >*****LEGAL NOTICE TO ALL BULK E-MAILERS***** >NOTICE TO BULK EMAILERS: Pursuant to US Code, >Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, 227, any >and all nonsolicited commercial E-mail sent to >this address is subject to a download and >archival fee in the amount of $500 US. >E-mailing denotes acceptance of these terms.

> I think the preview on the IGN-PC > site (http://pc.ign.com/news/10037.html) indicated that there might even be > a "spectator" mode, which will allow non-participants to watch races in > progress, Yesss! Now *that* is a feature that has been needed for a very long time in multiplayer sim racing! If they indeed pull this off, it will be a feature that will quickly catch on with other sims. How many here have had others who don't sim race, and wanted to know where they could go to watch your next race? I've had that dozens of times. They just may be on to something here................ -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 The box said "Windows 95 or better", so I installed LINUX!

I think you might be confusing Motorsims (AMA Superbike) with RatBag (DTR) in regards to the online spectator mode. It is definitely an option in AMA Superbike but have seen no mention of I with DTR.........I hope I'm wrong :) Coot

>> From what I've heard, you're going to be pleasantly surprised with Dirt >> Track Racing -- Ratbag's first title, Powerslide, works VERY nicely in >> multiplayer mode over the Internet, and from the reports I've read, Ratbag >> has made major improvements in this area with the Dirt Track Racing game. >I >> think these folks understand the importance of on-line racing, and they're >> making DTR with on-line *** in mind. I think the preview on the IGN-PC

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>> site ([link lost in import] indicated that there might even >be >> a "spectator" mode, which will allow non-participants to watch races in >> progress, similar to watching a deathmatch in Quake (this might have been >> mentioned on one of the other Aussie sites -- can't remember for sure) . >I >> could be wrong about this last part, but I think I remember seeing it >> someplace. If they're thinking along these lines, you know they've got >> Internet *** on the mind. >> -- JB >I think you might be confusing Motorsims (AMA Superbike) with RatBag (DTR) >in regards to the online spectator mode. It is definitely an option in AMA >Superbike but have seen no mention of I with DTR.........I hope I'm wrong

:) >Coot Hmmm . . . this MIGHT be the case -- I hope not, though. It would be GREAT to see something like this in DTR. If not, there's always AMA Superbikes . . . -- JB

Dont worry, spectator mode is currently in DTR and isnt being taken out. > I think N3 will hit the shelves first, and I know a lot of folks will pick > it up regardless -- DTR were to hit the shelves first, it might be ignored > in favor of N3 when it hit the shelves. Since DTR is scheduled to come out > after N3 (I think), it probably won't be overshadowed too much. Sometimes > it's good to be first, sometimes it's better to come along a little later -- > and in this case, once everybody realizes what you've already realized (that > is, that N3 will be more of what we've already seen, more or less), I think

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> that DTR's arrival will be pretty well-received. > Hopefully, anyway -- and hopefully it will be good! <G> > -- JB > >I'm going to buy whichever comes out first, to be honest. But I have

to say > >that I am looking forward to DTR more than N3. I have seen basically what > N3 > >has to offer, so it is somewhat of a known commodity. N legends seems more > >interesting to me than N3. But I will have them all.... oh yes.. I shall

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> >have them > >-- > >The Mocker > >*****LEGAL NOTICE TO ALL BULK E-MAILERS***** > >NOTICE TO BULK EMAILERS: Pursuant to US Code, > >Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, 227, any > >and all nonsolicited commercial E-mail sent to > >this address is subject to a download and > >archival fee in the amount of $500 US. > >E-mailing denotes acceptance of these terms.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

> Dont worry, spectator mode is currently in DTR and isnt being taken out. I think I'm falling in love... Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! This is going to be GREAT!! Where do I pre-order?? <G> -- JB

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>Dont worry, spectator mode is currently in DTR and isnt being taken out. >> I think N3 will hit the shelves first, and I know a lot of folks will >pick >> it up regardless -- DTR were to hit the shelves first, it might be >ignored >> in favor of N3 when it hit the shelves. Since DTR is scheduled to >come out >> after N3 (I think), it probably won't be overshadowed too much. >Sometimes >> it's good to be first, sometimes it's better to come along a little >later -- >> and in this case, once everybody realizes what you've already >realized (that >> is, that N3 will be more of what we've already seen, more or less), I >think >> that DTR's arrival will be pretty well-received. >> Hopefully, anyway -- and hopefully it will be good! <G> >> -- JB >> >I'm going to buy whichever comes out first, to be honest. But I have >to say >> >that I am looking forward to DTR more than N3. I have seen basically >what >> N3 >> >has to offer, so it is somewhat of a known commodity. N legends >seems more >> >interesting to me than N3. But I will have them all.... oh yes.. I >shall >> >have them >> >-- >> >The Mocker >> >*****LEGAL NOTICE TO ALL BULK E-MAILERS***** >> >NOTICE TO BULK EMAILERS: Pursuant to US Code, >> >Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, 227, any >> >and all nonsolicited commercial E-mail sent to >> >this address is subject to a download and >> >archival fee in the amount of $500 US. >> >E-mailing denotes acceptance of these terms. >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ >Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

>> Dont worry, spectator mode is currently in DTR and isnt being taken >> out. >I think I'm falling in love... You scare me, Tracy... :-) -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html Barbarian Diecast Collector (370+ cars and counting) http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html Internet Grand Prix Series Season 2 http://www.paddedwall.org/igps2/igps2.html North American Stockcar Racing Online Competition http://www.paddedwall.org/nasroc1/nasroc1.html Super X Philes http://members.home.net/kap/superx/superx.html If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

I didn't say it was a complete multiplayer suite, did I? :) Granted, it should have included some support for finding each other. But if I remember right it was also intially only going to be a LAN based multiplayer but the beta testers got that changed closer to the deadline. Perhaps having a GameSpy hook-in on shipdate would have been smart, but I think things worked out ok. :) Um, yes, when GPL was really designed, yes it was. Nowadays, probably not. But Tracey, if all you care about is "officially sponsored" online tournaments then you are right GPL is not your cup of tea. Nor will N3 be, nor will DTR, or whatever. User leagues have been run for years, and I dare say they are a heck of a lot more successul than um, the "NROS" tournament was, no? And ranking systems? Gee, I for one know whose damn fast in the GPL world...and it ain't me! [ok, maybe I'm sorta fast..but heh]. Did I need ranking systems to tell me? Nopers. However, you probably do need ranking systems if you are going to be running officially sanctioned, by some organization body, tournament. In that respect, I agree fully with you. Perhaps they did with NROS -> N3. I'm really surprised that all they are goingto do is "matching" servers. Not so sure that Motorsims is really picking it up, but rather continuing their "heritage" of WarBirds [not the same group, but many of them lead or helped design WarBirds] into the racing world [wonder if they will do a Reno Air Races addon, that would be cool]. But keep in mind, Motorsims will be a WORK-IN-PROGRESS much like WarBirds was before it.

(snippety snip) That actually is the beauty of massive multiplayer sims like Warbirds/Air warrior /etc and now hopefully the Motosims crew. A work in progress is a work constantly evolving to meet player input. This is not quite the same as the TEN situation where the evolution of the game has stopped. Generally my connection to the WB servers is much better (but not always) than any connection I get in any of the matching services plus I play with a lot more people than I do in a matchmaking situation. Its likely that only a for profit service is going to have the money to have the bandwidth to really make something on the scale of a NASCAR field or a big motorcycle entry work right. Yes it costs extra money but for the monthly equivalent of dinner-and-a-movie I receive a lot of value in WB and I anticipate the same in Motosims. I will definitly be checking out the Motosims world particularly when the CanAm sim comes out. David

Chris "Hollywood" Schletter wrote That's kind of an elitist attitude IMHO Chris. To say that "if someone needs incentives to race, they aren't serious about racing" is probably true. But if someone would have told me a few years ago that I would be "serious" about a virtual computer simulation, I would have said they were crazy. Now I have a $400 racing chair, *** steering wheels, and 2 computers dedicated to it because I got "hooked". Different people get hooked for different reasons. For some. it's the realism of the physics engine, for others it's the immersion of the graphics and sound, others just like the competition, some would race just because it is their favorite motor sport, be it F1, CART, or NASCAR. But then there are millions of other people out there not being reached because none of those things are quite enough for them. Those people need incentives, or bait, if you plan on hooking any more fish. If Sierra is happy just selling 40,000 units to the "serious" racers, then their design is working without a flaw. If they plan on growing the pond in which they are currently the biggest fish, then they need ways to get more water. Otherwise, a company like Motorsims or Ratbag is going to come along and open the dam, and us "serious racers" are going to lose our favorite sim creator.

Yup, I concur. Btw, there is no CanAm sim. SCCA's CanAM went south and now Motorsims has nothing except perhaps they may see about offering a GT racing that Bill France is putting together.

Oh, and yours isn't? You always come across sounding like that if it ain't on NROS like servers it isn't sim racing and it isn't worth a hill of beans. Hey, great. I'm glad that you are enjoying your hobby. I'm happy that you found something you want in an NROS like system. However, NROS type system has its detractions just as it has its attractions. But its also not the end all/be all of sim racing. Sim racing is just as viable on smaller dedicated servers and/or listen servers run by sim racing nuts. It may not be "professional" quality or useable for a "professional" racing organization for sanctioned racing, but its still a viable and fun form of racing online. Yes, of course. And my question to you is, why do you need to reach them at all? If they aren't interested in the variety of different offerings already available, why bother? I think Sierra may have been happy about selling 40,000 units of a game with the historical background of Grand Prix racing of 1967. As been said over and over and over again, its not the freaking physics of the game that caused it not to sell well...its being able to identify with those cars. Not many folks today would browse the shelves and say hey, I recognize that car from last week's big race. Or hey, didn't Jeff Gordon drive that car? Or Michael Andretti. Or F1 is cool. Muscle cars are cool. Not many implusive buys. Sure, some where scared off by the physics once the reviews starting coming out. But then again, not a lot of the "***" public even read *** magazines or go to websites. But I agree, that they have to find otherways of getting more water. I personally don't think that remaking another version of N1/N2/N99 is the way to go, but its the way they went. Just as an NROS like system is not the end all be all of sim racing, Papyrus is not the end all be all of sim racing game development. I'd like to see Motorsims, I'd like to see Ratbag, heck I'd like to see Crammond all succeed. Why? Because they will expand and make the a variety of different motorsims and from competition comes better games.

If DTR models the car behaviour well then I will definitely buy it. I run GPL exclusively right now but I had a great deal of fun running the ovals (short and long) on TEN. I welcome the experience that I can gain driving different types of cars and tracks. As Jacques Villeneuve demonstrated when he overtook Shumacher at Estoril in '96, oval experience can come in handy in road racing. Hopefully I'll learn some lessons that I can transfer between different modes of racing.

> Oh, and yours isn't? You always come across sounding like that if it ain't > on NROS like servers it isn't sim racing and it isn't worth a hill of beans. There is nothing "elitist" about my attitude Chris. I just want to PAY for a service so I have someone to complain to when it doesn't work, and so I have a "voice" in recommending improvements. I'd feel pretty stupid yelling at Allison Hine if I were booted from a VROC race. <G> Sims aren't selling well lately, not just GPL. If our "hobby" doesn't start catching on it's going to go away. We will be bowlers without bowling alleys. I completely agree with you, unfortunately that isn't the conclustion that Sierra made. If it were, I would be putting you another lap down in their latest Indy car offering right now. <G> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Nothing says that you can't recommend improvements for the VROC and/or the GSB. I'll guarantee that you're suggestions will be heard and considered! That's the good thing about places that are run by a small number of people. And you don't have to pay for this service. -- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

> Nothing says that you can't recommend improvements for the VROC and/or > the GSB. I'll guarantee that you're suggestions will be heard and > considered! That's the good thing about places that are run by a small > number of people. And you don't have to pay for this service. I have no reason to doubt this is the case. My feeling is based more on perception than reality, but anyone in business knows that perception IS reality. When I'm on TEN I feel like I'm dining out at a restaurant. If I don't like the way something is prepared, I tell the waiter to send it back. (The waiter never shows up on TEN, but that's another issue) On VROC, I feel like a guest at a dinner party, and I smile and compliment the chef, regardless of the quality. The quality of the meals at some dinner parties can be superior to most restaurants, but I still prefer paying for my meals. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

>> Just out of curiousity, how many of you diehard NASCAR fans are >e***d >> about the upcoming release of Dirt Track Racing? Personally,I'm going to wait until the 1st wave of reviews hits this newsgroup. We have been disappointed too many times in the past by great previews that just don't come close to our reviews !! Unlike so many of you,I don't have the time to learn and race competitively all the sims that come on the market. So I pick and choose them very carefully. Right now GPL is my main venture,and most likely Nascar3 will share equal billing,so a part time 3rd sim is the max that I can handle. Joel Willstein

I have to say that I am waiting for DTR more then I am waiting for N3. For many reasons. Not the least of which is the somewhat new venue that the game will offer. The idea of having trully different classes and tracks, with these differences being more pronounced than with N2/99/3 is really welcome. For me this seems like a nice online racing feature. For the offline version the "roleplaying" aspect looks fun. I have liked this type of thing since Mario Andretti racing. I love Nascar, but the game is really more of the same, and this time less, we lost the trucks. Hard to get pumped for. -- The Mocker *****LEGAL NOTICE TO ALL BULK E-MAILERS***** NOTICE TO BULK EMAILERS: Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, 227, any and all nonsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 US. E-mailing denotes acceptance of these terms.

> I love Nascar, but the game is really more of the same, and this time less, > we lost the trucks. Hard to get pumped for. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one disappointed that the Craftsman Trucks will not be making a return in N3. Although, I'll still be buying it, NASCAR Legends, *and* DTR. -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 The box said "Windows 95 or better", so I installed LINUX!

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>> I love Nascar, but the game is really more of the same, and this time less, >> we lost the trucks. Hard to get pumped for. >I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one disappointed that the Craftsman Trucks >will not be making a return in N3. Although, I'll still be buying it, NASCAR >Legends, *and* DTR. >--

As I've said since I first heard it: since they're dropping Trucks, they're also dropping the truck TRACKS - which includes Portland Speedway (where me and the Other Half try to go to the races every Friday). All together now - BBBBOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let's pray we can "import" our NR99 tracks into N3. Gunner

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> On Thu, 16 Sep 1999 19:37:27 GMT, > >Let's pray we can "import" our NR99 tracks into N3. > You can. > =====================================================

And there goes the power of prayer, my friends!! LOL Too cool! -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 The box said "Windows 95 or better", so I installed LINUX!