Nascar3 , GPL physics for group ?

Since Papyrus announced that Nascar3 would not use the GPL engine because it would not work properly with 43 cars with todays CPU's , would you be willing to race against 15 opponents with an advanced physics engine, as opposed to a slightly upgraded N2 engine with 43 opponents and better graphics ? In other words quality vs quantity.

>Since Papyrus announced that Nascar3 would not use the >GPL engine because it would not work properly with 43 cars >with todays CPU's , would you be willing to race against 15 opponents >with an advanced physics engine, as opposed to a slightly upgraded N2 >engine with 43 opponents and better graphics ? In other words quality >vs quantity. If it can't be 43 cars, it wouldn't be NASCAR racing would it? Maybe a lower-class racing series.

> Since Papyrus announced that Nascar3 would not use the > GPL engine because it would not work properly with 43 cars > with todays CPU's , would you be willing to race against 15 opponents > with an advanced physics engine, as opposed to a slightly upgraded N2 > engine with 43 opponents and better graphics ? In other words quality > vs quantity. Does anyone really expect to be able to race 43 cars on the internet anyway? Even with dedicated servers and T1 lines on TEN the best we could do is 24 cars. With cable or DSL I doubt we will be able to race more than 18 with any stabilty. The entire "43 car" argument only applies to offline racing, and I have no desire to race imaginary opponents. The problem is that there is a huge market that buys games to play offline, but only a few thousand of us that race on the net. Our wants and desires don't have much weight yet in the decision making process. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

I wouldn't! Game vs. Simulator! Sure, it would be better to have the advanced physics engine, but competition wise would be lacking. How fun could it be racing against 15 opponents? Sooner, but probably later, we will have the advanced physics engine and the full starting field. I can wait. I'll buy this version and probably every version after that just as every other true 'NASCAR NUT' will! Dan Kimmel

I've been wondering that my self. Unless I missed something, I have yet to see anything stated about the number of cars to race on line. I'll have to re read the papy press release to see if it's in there. All I remember it saying is that you can race 43 cars but I don't think it said 43 online. again, I'll re read it. mike

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> > Since Papyrus announced that Nascar3 would not use the > > GPL engine because it would not work properly with 43 cars > > with todays CPU's , would you be willing to race against 15 opponents > > with an advanced physics engine, as opposed to a slightly upgraded N2 > > engine with 43 opponents and better graphics ? In other words quality > > vs quantity. > Does anyone really expect to be able to race 43 cars on the internet > anyway? Even with dedicated servers and T1 lines on TEN the best we > could do is 24 cars. With cable or DSL I doubt we will be able to race > more than 18 with any stabilty. > The entire "43 car" argument only applies to offline racing, and I have > no desire to race imaginary opponents. The problem is that there is a > huge market that buys games to play offline, but only a few thousand of > us that race on the net. Our wants and desires don't have much weight > yet in the decision making process. > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

-- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

LOL, I think you mean Simulator Vs. Game!!! Without good physics, it would be a game, like the currnent crop of Nascar games, all of which are pretty much the same. Of course some menu and graphic enhancements, but nothing spectacular in the driving of the cars. Id much rather have better physics than 43 cars, but Im not a huge Nascar fan either. ML

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>I wouldn't! >Game vs. Simulator! >Sure, it would be better to have the advanced physics engine, but >competition wise would be lacking. How fun could it be racing against 15 >opponents? Sooner, but probably later, we will have the advanced physics >engine and the full starting field. I can wait. I'll buy this version and >probably every version after that just as every other true 'NASCAR NUT' >will! >Dan Kimmel >> Since Papyrus announced that Nascar3 would not use the >> GPL engine because it would not work properly with 43 cars >> with todays CPU's , would you be willing to race against 15 opponents >> with an advanced physics engine, as opposed to a slightly upgraded N2 >> engine with 43 opponents and better graphics ? In other words quality >> vs quantity.

Copied from the press release where 43 opponents are mentioned and where online racing is mentioned.. ........ Although Papyrus had previously announced plans to develop NASCAR? Racing 3 around the physics engine in Grand Prix Legends, it was determined that the system requirements needed to support that model with a 43 car field would exceed that of virtually all systems on the market today. An enhanced version of the physics from previous NASCAR? titles will be used in NASCAR? Racing 3. Papyrus will continue developing its next generation physics engine for use in future NASCAR? products. ....... Nothing in the rest of the press release states anything about online racing or the number of opponents. Maybe there's another press release from Papy some place?

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> I've been wondering that my self. Unless I missed something, I have > yet to see anything stated about the number of cars to race on line. > I'll have to re read the papy press release to see if it's in there. > All I remember it saying is that you can race 43 cars but I don't think > it said 43 online. again, I'll re read it. > mike

-- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

>Since Papyrus announced that Nascar3 would not use the >GPL engine because it would not work properly with 43 cars >with todays CPU's , would you be willing to race against 15 opponents >with an advanced physics engine, as opposed to a slightly upgraded N2 >engine with 43 opponents and better graphics ? In other words quality >vs quantity. Since racing with more than ten or so people on GPL/VROC starts turning into a demo derby more times than not, I hesitate to ponder just what 30-40 car N3 pick-up races will be like. The question is how many GPL racers we'll still find on VROC once N3 is released? (maybe a fair number once they get tired of "N3-newbie-crash-o-rama") "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

Game vs. Simulator, Simulator vs. Game, it's a matter of opinion! I'd like to have the whole deal, opponents and handling! Besides, if it did it all, what would there be to *** about?

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> LOL, I think you mean Simulator Vs. Game!!! Without good physics, it would > be a game, like the currnent crop of Nascar games, all of which are pretty > much the same. Of course some menu and graphic enhancements, but nothing > spectacular in the driving of the cars. > Id much rather have better physics than 43 cars, but Im not a huge Nascar > fan either. > ML > >I wouldn't! > >Game vs. Simulator! > >Sure, it would be better to have the advanced physics engine, but > >competition wise would be lacking. How fun could it be racing against 15 > >opponents? Sooner, but probably later, we will have the advanced physics > >engine and the full starting field. I can wait. I'll buy this version

and

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> >probably every version after that just as every other true 'NASCAR NUT' > >will! > >Dan Kimmel > >> Since Papyrus announced that Nascar3 would not use the > >> GPL engine because it would not work properly with 43 cars > >> with todays CPU's , would you be willing to race against 15 opponents > >> with an advanced physics engine, as opposed to a slightly upgraded N2 > >> engine with 43 opponents and better graphics ? In other words quality > >> vs quantity.

>The question is > how many GPL racers we'll still find on VROC once N3 is released? > (maybe a fair number once they get tired of "N3-newbie-crash-o-rama") Probably more than ever. When N2 on TEN goes away, those of us that enjoy serious racing will be looking for a new home. I doubt that NASCAR 3 will be the answer, mainly for the reasons you mentioned. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

I'd go for 15 good opponents and a excellent driving model over being able to race 43 wreckmongers. :)

Copied from the press release where 43 opponents are mentioned and where online racing is mentioned.. Mike, LOOK UP!!! that was the question going right over your head. Rik Anthrax

I agree with you to a point. Even at the NASCAR races, it's full of those first lap crashes. So, don't look at GPL specifically for relations between first laps and finish laps. Thanks to Scotts post, I'll be racing the NASCAR sim when it comes out and I'll be racing the GPL leagues on GSB too. Of course, when (IF) the N3 to GPL converter comes out, I'll be on GSB 100% of the time ;-) I still love the Road courses more then the Ovals, but an occasional oval is OK too (In my book).

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> >Since Papyrus announced that Nascar3 would not use the > >GPL engine because it would not work properly with 43 cars > >with todays CPU's , would you be willing to race against 15 opponents > >with an advanced physics engine, as opposed to a slightly upgraded N2 > >engine with 43 opponents and better graphics ? In other words quality > >vs quantity. > Since racing with more than ten or so people on GPL/VROC starts > turning into a demo derby more times than not, I hesitate to ponder > just what 30-40 car N3 pick-up races will be like. The question is > how many GPL racers we'll still find on VROC once N3 is released? > (maybe a fair number once they get tired of "N3-newbie-crash-o-rama") > "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was > nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into > a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

-- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

On Thu, 02 Sep 1999 16:29:14 GMT, LOL! So you have become -only- a fan of 60's F1 racing? While I like GPL, I also enjoy driving other types of sims. When I drive those other sims, I choose the best available sim to do my driving. Nascar3 will be the best Nascar sim ever produced, IMO. -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

A lot more fun to race 15 opponents that are skilled and have taken the time to learn to drive the more advanced driving model than 43 yahoos who haven't a clue.

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> I wouldn't! > Game vs. Simulator! > Sure, it would be better to have the advanced physics engine, but > competition wise would be lacking. How fun could it be racing against 15 > opponents? Sooner, but probably later, we will have the advanced physics > engine and the full starting field. I can wait. I'll buy this version

and

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> probably every version after that just as every other true 'NASCAR NUT' > will! > Dan Kimmel > > Since Papyrus announced that Nascar3 would not use the > > GPL engine because it would not work properly with 43 cars > > with todays CPU's , would you be willing to race against 15 opponents > > with an advanced physics engine, as opposed to a slightly upgraded N2 > > engine with 43 opponents and better graphics ? In other words quality > > vs quantity.

15? Definitely not. 20? TEN allowed 24, so nope. 25? This would be barely adequate, but enjoyable. 30? Now we're talking. 35? Even better. 40? Those papy guys are fantabulous. 43? Okay, they're not just fantabulous, but they are GODS! -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html Barbarian Diecast Collector (370+ cars and counting) http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html Internet Grand Prix Series Season 2 http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html North American Stockcar Racing Online Competition http://www.paddedwall.org/nasroc1/nasroc1.html Super X Philes http://members.home.net/kap/superx/superx.html If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

Unfortunately, the bulk of the buying public will be racing offline. We have a ways to go before online racing becomes the main venue for the masses. -- Don Burnette Dburn on Ten http://members.home.net/d.burnette/Sportsman%204.htm > > Since Papyrus announced that Nascar3 would not use the > > GPL engine because it would not work properly with 43 cars > > with todays CPU's , would you be willing to race against 15 opponents > > with an advanced physics engine, as opposed to a slightly upgraded N2 > > engine with 43 opponents and better graphics ? In other words quality > > vs quantity. > Does anyone really expect to be able to race 43 cars on the internet > anyway? Even with dedicated servers and T1 lines on TEN the best we > could do is 24 cars. With cable or DSL I doubt we will be able to race > more than 18 with any stabilty. snip

Papyrus oughta compromise then...how about a 27 car field? It pushes the latest technology a little more and gives them an opportunity to optimize and perfect the GPL game engine a bit more. Problem is we would have to find a series that has 27 car fields...oh wait CART has 27 car fields! PAPY IT'S NOT TOO LATE!!!!!!!!! TRASH N3!!!!!!!!!!!! DO CART 3 INSTEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!! If I said 'pretty please with sugar on top' would it help sway ya guys any? I knew it would. :-) ________________________________________________ Jon Van Ginneken "Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules, and ***ic pleasure in witnessing ***: in other words it is war minus the shooting." --George Orwell

Nope not at all, I am a fan of good racing simulators. GPL is the only one that gives a fairly good feeling of really driving the car. Of course Nascar 3 will be the best Nascar Sim, it has no competition, other than N2, and N99, which arent going to be that far behind in the overall classification, ;) If the cars dont give you a feeling of really driving, I cant say I would enjoy it as much as a Sim with fewer opponents, and a more realistic driving feel. I might even like to play it if it has a really good physics engine, but I think we will be waiting till Nascar 4 for that, when the P4 1ghz processors are out, so we can run all the oppenents. Shouldnt be more than a year! :) SC

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>On Thu, 02 Sep 1999 16:29:14 GMT, >>LOL, I think you mean Simulator Vs. Game!!! Without good physics, it would >>be a game, like the currnent crop of Nascar games, all of which are pretty >>much the same. Of course some menu and graphic enhancements, but nothing >>spectacular in the driving of the cars. >>Id much rather have better physics than 43 cars, but Im not a huge Nascar >>fan either. >LOL! So you have become -only- a fan of 60's F1 racing? >While I like GPL, I also enjoy driving other types of sims. >When I drive those other sims, I choose the best available >sim to do my driving. Nascar3 will be the best Nascar sim >ever produced, IMO. >-- >* rrevved at mindspring dot com >* http://www.cabal.net >* http://www.sputum.com

CART Sim Features Sheet Important ones denoted with * All tracks* Good but easy to use Track Editor All cars (none fictional)* Fantasy Tracks 8^) GPL Physics or N3 if not GPL* All teams (tobacco and *** if possible)* native RENDITION support*** drafting* 3d***pits* 3d Physics engine that simulates true CART handling* Resolutions like 800x600 and 1024x768* Excellent car damage model so that no two crashes look alike* Realistic flip effects,like GPL and not Andretti Racing (boo) Comprehensive car setups, including springs, shocks, camber, weight jacker on ovals, static ride height, dampers, rebounds, bump stops, etc. * Realistic effects like bottoming out* Realistic debris that you can run over and damage your car on Random tire blowouts* Oil and other fluids from engine failures* Fire (highly unlikely this will be allowed by CART)* Realistic wall types and wall effects (Armco barriers do more damage than concrete, tire walls do less damage than concrete, tire walls cause car to get airborne and flip more than concrete and armcos, etc.)* Realistic gravel trap effects (Come on, you know you wanna do an Andretti at Mid-Ohio, admit it...)* Improved Paintkit* realistic sounds actually digitally recorded* animated pit stops* area in pit road that can be drivin off into the infield to get to victory lane..or garage* realistic***pit that has hand on wheel like GPL* better frame rates/3d acceleration/1024x768 resolution* better engine, way more realistic damage to the car, the way the damage is spread across the track in real life...fliping catchin air on other tires* better smoke,skid marks and racing groove*, possible damage of the catch fencing* RED FLAGS* animated workers on the track after a wreck...and if possible ambulances or REAL tow-trucks* marks on the walls after a hit, animated flagmen* more options to change on the car in garage full field of cars* all the current tracks ( if possible...Indianapolis, since it rightfully is CART's) * realistic lookin part-time road courses like with the closed off streets and stuff* fire,fuel and oil leaks, (causin slippery race track)* possible damage to the pit wall..* animated OPPONENT pit stops* more realistic AI cars* weather changes like durin the race, rain, wind, etc* possible use of rain tires, and racing in the rain (regardless of if there was rain that season or not*)

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> >Since Papyrus announced that Nascar3 would not use the > >GPL engine because it would not work properly with 43 cars > >with todays CPU's , would you be willing to race against 15 opponents > >with an advanced physics engine, as opposed to a slightly upgraded N2 > >engine with 43 opponents and better graphics ? In other words quality > >vs quantity. > If it can't be 43 cars, it wouldn't be NASCAR racing would it? > Maybe a lower-class racing series.

So you didn't enjoy N1 or N2, as no PC was able to display ALL cars with a bearable framerate? l8er ronny -- "I heard if you play the NT-4.0-CD backwards, you get a satanic message." "That's nothing, if you play it forward, it installs NT-4.0"

Thats not saying very much Ed, especially since its N2 wearing different clothes.

And whys that? Um, so? Says who? You aren't going to see 43 cars on the same track and it wouldnt' be very much fun if you did.

> You aren't going to see 43 cars on the same track and it wouldnt' be very > much fun if you did. Not much fun? LOL It would be a disaster! Even if it were on a closed LAN where connections were perfect, it would still end up as a donnybrook after the cars in the back started getting lapped on the second lap at one of those half-mile ovals. It's perplexing to me that the same company that decided that today's computer technology wasn't capable of handling a 3D physics engine with a 43 car field, somehow leaped to the conclusion that today's internet communication technology IS ready for a 43 car field. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Ya know what Chris? You haven't said one positive thing in any of the Nascar 3 threads, and your rhetoric is becoming tiring. N3 is a new version of *my* favorite sim, so I'm jazzed about what they've put into it. I've said time and again that GPL is the best sim available. You wanna know something? Even after N3 is released, GPL will STILL be the best sim available, but being a Nascar fan, I'll still pick a warmed-over outdated sim over GPL because quite frankly, open-wheel racing isn't that much of a rush for me. The key point was that it allowed me to race online without paying money to a half-assed pay-to-play game service that didnt' give a shit about customer complaints, suggestions or connection problems. Sure, I'd like to see physics that are closer to real life, but from what I've seen of those physics married to a less than stellar net connection, it's not approriate. Personally, flipping stock cars is not my idea of a good time, and is not very realistic given the less than likely chance of it happening anymore in a real race. Lastly, I prefer Nascar to F1, but you don't see me bashing any of the open-wheel sims on an hourly basis. I even ran a GPL league (two seasons worth), and I had great fun, but I'm dropping GPL to secondary sim status in favor of Nascar. Now, having said that, why don't you do all of us Nascar fans us a couple of favors: 1) Back the *** off a little. 2) Don't buy the goddamn sim if you don't like it that much. 3) Broaden your outlook on life, and accept the fact that there are people that LIKE Nascar, and the Nascar sims that Papy gives us. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html Barbarian Diecast Collector (370+ cars and counting) http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html Internet Grand Prix Series Season 2 http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html North American Stockcar Racing Online Competition http://www.paddedwall.org/nasroc1/nasroc1.html Super X Philes http://members.home.net/kap/superx/superx.html If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

And stop sounding like Eeyore -- your posts are such downers! Right on, John! Kurt

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>>> 15? Definitely not. >>And whys that? >>> 20? TEN allowed 24, so nope. >>Um, so? >>> 25? This would be barely adequate, but enjoyable. >>Says who? >>> 43? Okay, they're not just fantabulous, but they are GODS! >>You aren't going to see 43 cars on the same track and it >>wouldnt' be very much fun if you did. >Ya know what Chris? You haven't said one positive thing in any of the >Nascar 3 threads, and your rhetoric is becoming tiring. N3 is a new >version of *my* favorite sim, so I'm jazzed about what they've put into >it. I've said time and again that GPL is the best sim available. You >wanna know something? Even after N3 is released, GPL will STILL be the >best sim available, but being a Nascar fan, I'll still pick a warmed-over >outdated sim over GPL because quite frankly, open-wheel racing isn't that >much of a rush for me. >The key point was that it allowed me to race online without paying money >to a half-assed pay-to-play game service that didnt' give a shit about >customer complaints, suggestions or connection problems. >Sure, I'd like to see physics that are closer to real life, but from what >I've seen of those physics married to a less than stellar net connection, >it's not approriate. Personally, flipping stock cars is not my idea of a >good time, and is not very realistic given the less than likely chance of >it happening anymore in a real race. Lastly, I prefer Nascar to F1, but >you don't see me bashing any of the open-wheel sims on an hourly basis. >I even ran a GPL league (two seasons worth), and I had great fun, but I'm >dropping GPL to secondary sim status in favor of Nascar. >Now, having said that, why don't you do all of us Nascar fans us a couple >of favors: >1) Back the *** off a little. >2) Don't buy the goddamn sim if you don't like it that much. >3) Broaden your outlook on life, and accept the fact that there are >people that LIKE Nascar, and the Nascar sims that Papy gives us. >-- >========================================================= >Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) > http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html >Barbarian Diecast Collector (370+ cars and counting) > http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html >Internet Grand Prix Series Season 2 > http://www.paddedwall.org/igps2/igps2.html >North American Stockcar Racing Online Competition > http://www.paddedwall.org/nasroc1/nasroc1.html >Super X Philes > http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast >If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown >above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. >=========================================================

I heard that the beta was limited to 32 cars. 32 is fine with me online. This bega another question to be asked though. Some of the tracks in NR1999 allow fewer than even the sim max of 39. For instance, Bristol only has 31 pit stalls, and Richmond only has 25. The question: Did they re-design these tracks (and tracks like them) to allow a full offline grid of cars to race? -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html Barbarian Diecast Collector (370+ cars and counting) http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html Internet Grand Prix Series Season 2 http://www.paddedwall.org/igps2/igps2.html North American Stockcar Racing Online Competition http://www.paddedwall.org/nasroc1/nasroc1.html Super X Philes http://members.home.net/kap/superx/superx.html If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

Seems like to me you are the one that needs to take the chill pill. Never said I was. However, I have said I *might* given that it has better collision detection in its networking code and track converters were available because I could see it as an excellent platform for the Pits excellent Touring Patch [gee, thats like the 2nd time I've said something positive about.] Hey, thats great. My hats off to you. However, me personally, I'm not all that enthused of yet another N2 knockoff of which there has been several. It would have been nice to see a competitive upgrade program offered for those owners of N2/NR99. Objections aside, this is definetly a very very good reason for N3 to come to stores as quickly as possible. I may not be a big fan of the same engine being used over and over again, but I have no qualms about it being good for those of you who like Nascar racing and are sick of a certain pogo-stick company who has had a vice-like grip on being able to race NASCAR [or much anything else til GPL came along] online. There are absolutely no guarentees that playability will be any better than with GPL. Rather, I'd be much more willing to bet its very similiar to GPL in its playability over the net. Hopefully it won't have this slomo/turbo bug thats crept into GPL and its networking code will probably be a bit better considering what they learned writing/patching GPL. However, all the same things such as warp, latency, etc. we've dealt with in both NROS and GPL will be there. The biggest challenge is how good the collision detection is for multiplayer, especially for stock-car racing where bumping is racing. real race. Or mine. I distinctly dislike the collisions in GPL online...at least that won't happen I guess with N3. Great, I prefer CART to both NASCAR and F1...but NASCAR I prefer to F1 and F1 to IRL. <insert 50 line signature file here please>

Dang, John, I can't believe I didn't think to check this- I'll do that, and let you know. -- Scott Moore Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com] Offline Sim Racing Headquarters [link lost in import: /***.com] > >It's perplexing to me that the same company that decided that today's > >computer technology wasn't capable of handling a 3D physics engine with > >a 43 car field, somehow leaped to the conclusion that today's internet > >communication technology IS ready for a 43 car field. > I heard that the beta was limited to 32 cars. 32 is fine with me online. > This bega another question to be asked though. > Some of the tracks in NR1999 allow fewer than even the sim max of 39. > For instance, Bristol only has 31 pit stalls, and Richmond only has 25. > The question: Did they re-design these tracks (and tracks like them) to > allow a full offline grid of cars to race? > -- > ========================================================= > Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) > http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html > Barbarian Diecast Collector (370+ cars and counting) > http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html > Internet Grand Prix Series Season 2 > http://www.paddedwall.org/igps2/igps2.html > North American Stockcar Racing Online Competition > http://www.paddedwall.org/nasroc1/nasroc1.html > Super X Philes > http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > =========================================================

Maybe if you had the 43 best NROS drivers on the 'net you could do it. :) I have thought along those very same lines.

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>Copied from the press release where 43 opponents are mentioned and where >online racing is mentioned.. >........ >Although Papyrus had previously announced plans to develop NASCAR? >Racing 3 around the physics engine in Grand Prix Legends, it was >determined that the system requirements needed to support that model >with a 43 car field would exceed that of virtually all systems on the >market today. An enhanced version of the physics from previous >NASCAR? titles will be used in NASCAR? Racing 3. Papyrus will >continue developing its next generation physics engine for use in >future NASCAR? products. >.......

Beta reviewer says on the Beta there was a 32 car limit. (untested I believe) In a press release it was stated 20+ with a fast internet connection.

>Since Papyrus announced that Nascar3 would not use the >GPL engine because it would not work properly with 43 cars >with todays CPU's , would you be willing to race against 15 opponents >with an advanced physics engine, as opposed to a slightly upgraded N2 >engine with 43 opponents and better graphics ? In other words quality >vs quantity. When are you going to give this stupid line of posts up? For months we've had every single post one could possibly think of as a option to what Sierra/Papyrus has decided to do. You have absolutely no idea of the quality of Nas3. If you will not accept anything other then Nascar2000 with the gpl physics engine,then fine,don't buy Nas3 and just wait for its release. But there are those like myself that can't wait for Nas3 to hit the shelves. And no,I opted not to buy Nas99. I just didn't post it 50 million times. Joel Willstein

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>> You aren't going to see 43 cars on the same track and it wouldnt' be >very >> much fun if you did. >Not much fun? LOL It would be a disaster! >Even if it were on a closed LAN where connections were perfect, it >would still end up as a donnybrook after the cars in the back started >getting lapped on the second lap at one of those half-mile ovals.

Allow me to put a different "spin" on this issue. If there were 43 cars on the track, there would be a much higher premium on how your setup handles in traffic. With only 12-24 cars, the leaders are usually running wide open. When they come up on a lapped car, for some reason it has become the lapped car's responsibility to move out of the way. (not just maintain a safe line) With 43 cars you would constantly be in traffic, and would learn to adapt your driving style, and setup to it. The net result in my opinion is more cars that can compete for the lead... Cutting edge speed setups would rarely be of value.

>It's perplexing to me that the same company that decided that today's >computer technology wasn't capable of handling a 3D physics engine with >a 43 car field, somehow leaped to the conclusion that today's internet >communication technology IS ready for a 43 car field. Communication technology IS ready for a 43 car field as long as you throw enough low latency bandwidth at the problem. You're comparing the task of 1 computer computing the AI's version of physics for each of 42 cars plus 1 players physics vs the (dedicated host) computing 0 physics, and each client computing only thier own physics. Offline vs Online. Offline AI is much more taxing with the GPL's AI physics than multiplayer is.

>Allow me to put a different "spin" on this issue. >If there were 43 cars on the track, there would be a much higher premium on >how your setup handles in traffic. With only 12-24 cars, the leaders are >usually running wide open. When they come up on a lapped car, for some >reason it has become the lapped car's responsibility to move out of the way. >(not just maintain a safe line) With 43 cars you would constantly be in >traffic, and would learn to adapt your driving style, and setup to it. The >net result in my opinion is more cars that can compete for the lead... >Cutting edge speed setups would rarely be of value. Great Post Mike, I think you are right on the money. The problem is we have NEVER even had the OPPORTUNITY to race with 43 people and do not know how the average person would react. When I raced in this last NROS season, my primary focus was to get beyond the first 80% of the race. Our team which had 4 guys in the top 10 of last season's NROS Pro Division had only 1 focus. DON'T WRECK and make sure to put yourself into a position only to finish well. I think 43 online racers would be awsome. I think the reason for only 32 now is due mostly to the track layouts. Has anyone heard if Pit Positions will be based on qualifying or still the lame way we do it now? Bill / Amish on TEN

>I think the reason for only 32 now is due mostly to the track layouts. >Has anyone heard if Pit Positions will be based on qualifying or still the lame way we do it now? My guess as to 32 is because Papy probably never thought anyone would be willing to throw enough bandwidth at it to be able to host even 32. Remember 42 AI supposedly fit in the pitstalls offline. As for pit stalls assigned by qualifying... Based on the comment where "you get the first pit stall" (i.e.far back) I'd say it still works the same as N2. I know the procedure required to assign pit stalls based on qualifying, but would need access to the host source code (or write a compatible server) to do it.

> Since racing with more than ten or so people on GPL/VROC starts >turning into a demo derby more times than not, I hesitate to ponder >just what 30-40 car N3 pick-up races will be like. The question is >how many GPL racers we'll still find on VROC once N3 is released? >(maybe a fair number once they get tired of "N3-newbie-crash-o-rama") Jeff, I've wondered the samething. As it stands right now,there isn't more than 50-75 racers at VROC at anyone time. Alison has never released the actual number of drivers that have signed up. But more than half of the online members are in the chat room rather than on the track. The way it looks to me right now,when online racing starts with Nas3,VROC will be a shadow of itself. Joel Willstein

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>Ya know what Chris? You haven't said one positive thing in any of the >Nascar 3 threads, and your rhetoric is becoming tiring. N3 is a new >version of *my* favorite sim, so I'm jazzed about what they've put into >it. I've said time and again that GPL is the best sim available. You >wanna know something? Even after N3 is released, GPL will STILL be the >best sim available, but being a Nascar fan, I'll still pick a warmed-over >outdated sim over GPL because quite frankly, open-wheel racing isn't that >much of a rush for me.

John, I've been following the thread,and I have to agree with you. Enough is enough. Chris,if the thought of Nascar 3 is so terrible,then don't buy it,but stop bashing it,since you haven't even tried it. So far the reviews of those who have tested the alpha and beta versions have said that the game is much better than Nascar2. The cars now feel like stock cars,and the bodies feel like they roll. The few tracks that came with the beta versions are a vast improvement as well. The Force Feedback is great, which is reason enough for me to buy it. Personally,I'll be racing both GPL and Nascar3 online. Joel Willstein

How about a sim that were you can adjust physics yourself? Just set the "physics-setup-bar" to higher and you have more realistic physics? Anyone who play offline can adjust his physics to the level where he can use 43 cars if he wants to(use less CPU power) and in onlineraces there would be different leagues. Realistic and Semi-Realistic etc? One single game would serve "everyone" at one time and Papy would get big bucks too. Yeah. I know it's damn difficult to do, but wouldn't that be great! :)

It's not a 'slightly' upgraded engine. Trust me. N3 is a _substantial_ upgrade to the Nascar Racing series. IMHO, it is the first real upgrade since N2 came out. Give it a chance. -Larry

On the server side, it requires 24k data rates per car for proper performance. -Larry

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> I've been wondering that my self. Unless I missed something, I have > yet to see anything stated about the number of cars to race on line. > I'll have to re read the papy press release to see if it's in there. > All I remember it saying is that you can race 43 cars but I don't think > it said 43 online. again, I'll re read it. > mike > > > Since Papyrus announced that Nascar3 would not use the > > > GPL engine because it would not work properly with 43 cars > > > with todays CPU's , would you be willing to race against 15 opponents > > > with an advanced physics engine, as opposed to a slightly upgraded N2 > > > engine with 43 opponents and better graphics ? In other words quality > > > vs quantity. > > Does anyone really expect to be able to race 43 cars on the internet > > anyway? Even with dedicated servers and T1 lines on TEN the best we > > could do is 24 cars. With cable or DSL I doubt we will be able to race > > more than 18 with any stabilty. > > The entire "43 car" argument only applies to offline racing, and I have > > no desire to race imaginary opponents. The problem is that there is a > > huge market that buys games to play offline, but only a few thousand of > > us that race on the net. Our wants and desires don't have much weight > > yet in the decision making process. > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > -- > ========================================= > Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? > ========================================= > Racing online with the help of...... > Race Communications Association > http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html > Holodyne Engineering > Mystic Music > (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)