Papyrus has just digged their graves...

R.I.P. Papyrus 1989 - 2000 -- It's a sad day in the industry of racing simulators. -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

PAPY...your killing me here!!!! Im sure i dont speak for everyone...but id rather the sim be delayed (with in reason....a couple months maybe) so we can get the GPL Physics or something VERY close. Anyone else share my opinion....anyone? A very dissapointed, Chris On a side note--This makes SCGT and TOCA2 look in good shape for sim of the year....unless either GP3, Spirit of Speed 1939 (is that the title), or TransAm 68-72 is better (which sounds like they will).

>R.I.P. Papyrus >1989 - 2000 Personally I wasn't worried about the physics as much as hoping they would have a TRUE windows98 game. Namely one that would work with the digital FF wheels (including Multiplay). If N3 doesn't at least have this I have no interest in getting it. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

I totaly agree. Unless they created a different engine for N3. If they try and polish up N2 anymore it's going to wear out. It's already way outdated. I think my heart has just been ripped from my chest. This is and was the only game I was getting ready for. R.I.P. papy.

I just fear that Papyrus is not the company we all knew they were... Those people are not corporate business man. They are young guns, with talent, the leads in the industry that kept pushing the limits of racing simulation all those years and developing technology. This is the Papyrus that we know. From the E3 reports, it has disappeared, probably under the shiny wax of Sierra Sports (a.k.a. the Business corporation). -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Richard, I admit Im disappointed with Papy for not admitting this sooner though. Hell... their web site and message board still said "based on the GPL physics engine." However, N3 (N2000) can still be a great release IF they can take the N99 physics engine and build upon it with the 3d physics which allow cars to get airborne and more chassis "feel". Im not sure if its possible, but Im hopeful. It will also have more setup options, however not as many as originally stated. They also need to seriously upgrade the graphics (D3D and OpenGL), multiplayer capability, and add dynamic damage, skid marks, etc. Who knows if we ar going to get the 18 tracks that is stated for release with N3. Im sure they will still have a BGN pack to sell to bring in more revenue $$$ Probably continue to see Chassis 1, Chassis 2, etc as well which is not big deal as long as the "open" ability remains for designing your own paint jobs and improving the sim as Papy products have a history of allowing. Another key appears to be that TEN will no longer be the exclusive realm for NASCAR racing. What will that mean for TEN? Will the NROS live on or die off as individuals form leagues hosted on their own servers? Or will we see a VROC type system for NASCAR? Alot of questions and very few answers because Papy/Sierra wont tell anyone anything. Lets just put it this way... GPL is going to be THE sim for quite some time yet <VBG>, and thats not SO bad!! Hell... I only "know" 2 or 3 tracks so far anyways. Still a ton to learn in GPL. Heck... I still need work on my N2 setups at some tracks <G> I may be a die hard NASCAR fan, but I will NOT spend a nickel on a rebadged N99 when I wouldnt even buy N99! So there had better be some serious upgrades and improvements.... or its going to be a disappointing year for sim racing. Whats the latest on the "if" with Trans-Am Racing ?? Scott PA-Scott G.T.S. Racing - http://www.GTS-Racing.com -- Scott B. Husted PA-Scott on TEN http://home.earthlink.net/~sbhusted ICQ# 4395450

> This is exactly the sort of post we saw 18 months ago. But GPL didn't > disappoint now did it? <g> Well no ;-) I have mixed feelings. At the same time I try to be Pro-Papyrus in this situation, I have some stuff, Im actually quite happy in some situations, but it's difficult with what happens now. I mean look at GPL. It's ahead of it's time. N3 would had been ready if they didn't had 3development teams at Papyrus instead of 1. But they have eat and sleep, I guess. Actually, I agree. I just feel cheated by what's happening. Already many of us saw that NR99 was extremely buggy. There was too many stuff. A Ferrari chassis with a Renault 2CV engine. They didn't released a patch. We all had doubts about the seriousness of Papyrus. I think that what they just said officialised that Papyrus is not the same as before. They are a different company now, who went towards the money instead of developing their engine and being the leader in the industry. They got squeezed by Sierra Sports. Of course, If NR2000 has some nice additions, Dynamic Skid marks, a physic increase as was N2 towards N1, better resolution, full Windows support, and NROS support, It will sell pretty well. But it's not the Papyrus of before. I guess we now need to accept that. But who has the guts to do so ? Remember It's National Security we are talking here <grin> ;-) -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Unfortunately, and very depressingly, Sierra bought Papy some time ago. That was the kiss of death, IMO. That Papy had GPL well in the works at the time (I think) would be the only reason it came out so well. The marketing whizzes (pun intended) at Sierra just could not keep their grubby little paws off a good thing. I mourn. Mikey |PAPY...your killing me here!!!! Im sure i dont speak for everyone...but id |rather the sim be delayed (with in reason....a couple months maybe) so we can

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|get the GPL Physics or something VERY close. Anyone else share my |opinion....anyone? | |A very dissapointed, |Chris | |On a side note--This makes SCGT and TOCA2 look in good shape for sim of the |year....unless either GP3, Spirit of Speed 1939 (is that the title), or

TransAm |68-72 is better (which sounds like they will).

Hi, Reading the articles on N2000 this afternoon. One of the many things I didn't like was that I got the feeling that it sounded like Papy was making a "dumbed down" physics model for N2000 to please the mass market. What can't there be an arcade setting and a simulation setting? I think there is defently a market for *** racing simulations. Look on the flight sim side at Falcon, for example. Even GP2 sold something like 500,000 copies, didn't it? and it was the best F1 sim out there before GPL. I hope if what I read is true that the N2 engine will go through a big overhaul to say the least. If this is tru I would like to see some of these things in N2000: - More setup optiosn (although after reading the articles, even this is uncertain now) - better graphics - better damage model - better AI (way better at all tracks, especially at Talladega) - Better pitting, based on qualifying (having to pit on the backstretch) - Better qualifying with proper use of provisionals -- This would require a good career mode The whole thing about sequels worrys me too, (versions released in 2001 and 2002) This is just an excuse to make a crappy version this year and trying to fix it next year! (it sounds too much like EA to me, NHL1999 anyone?) The only thing I can see that just *might* be good about this is that N2000 might not be as taxing on systems as it would be implemented with GPL. Although a lot would have to be changed from NR1999 to N200 to make that point a good one. After four years between N2 and N2000, I hope when I try the demo it doesn't feel like N2 with nicer graphics and some added features! Later, John (who is worried he might not as quickly run out the the store to buy N2000, unlike GPL)

Hi, Reading the articles on N2000 this afternoon. One of the many things I didn't like was that I got the feeling that it sounded like Papy was making a "dumbed down" physics model for N2000 to please the mass market. What can't there be an arcade setting and a simulation setting? I think there is defently a market for *** racing simulations. Look on the flight sim side at Falcon, for example. Even GP2 sold something like 500,000 copies, didn't it? and it was the best F1 sim out there before GPL. I hope if what I read is true that the N2 engine will go through a big overhaul to say the least. If this is tru I would like to see some of these things in N2000: - More setup optiosn (although after reading the articles, even this is uncertain now) - better graphics - improved physics model (sounds like it is just being tweaked) - better sounds - better damage model - better AI (way better at all tracks, especially at Talladega) - Better pitting, based on qualifying (having to pit on the backstretch) - Better qualifying with proper use of provisionals -- This would require a good career mode The whole thing about sequels worrys me too, (versions released in 2001 and 2002) This is just an excuse to make a crappy version this year and trying to fix it next year! (it sounds too much like EA to me, NHL1999 anyone?) The only thing I can see that just *might* be good about this is that N2000 might not be as taxing on systems as it would be implemented with GPL. Although a lot would have to be changed from NR1999 to N200 to make that point a good one. After four years between N2 and N2000, I hope when I try the demo it doesn't feel like N2 with nicer graphics and some added features! Later, John (who is worried he might not as quickly run out the the store to buy N2000, unlike GPL)

This worrys me as well. As for the comparison to NHL 99....i could make one but i cant get my (explicitives insulting EA sports deleted) copy to work!!!!!!!! Ive tried everything. But i wont rant about that here....wrong game. I noticed this most in N99. Not a good sign of things to come if you ask me. Granted GPL was in development druing those years after N2 was released (probably the last GREAT Papy sim) but in 3(?) years they couldnt make it any better than they did? Plus the lost alot of liscenses (paint shop had no real decals and the was the Chassis 1,2, &3 thing). Granted those have both been fixed in my copy (thanks to The Pits for all your patches to N99). But i really dont think it should befall the consumer to fix these things. In closing its Sierra Sports trying to beat EA....i say let EA be EA and give Papy theyre freedom back!!! Chris

You mean like Sierra have destroyed Half-Life, Homeworld and the Blizzard titles? Moron. Sierra are a big publisher and as such anyone waiting for a game from their developers blames them for the problems and the developer for the good parts. The relationship is close between developers and publishers regardless of whether they are owned or just dealing with them for a short period. Why not wait and see before calling them names? M

>R.I.P. Papyrus >1989 - 2000 Is that Nascar Revolution game buy EA that good?

Noooo ! Stay away from that of at least 10feet. 20feet if your able too :) Good point, still. We may be harsh on Papyrus and SIerra about their decision, but even with the old game engine + additions N2000 will be better than any Stock-car product on the market. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

> You mean like Sierra have destroyed Half-Life, Homeworld and the Blizzard > titles? Moron. I hate their guts just for the stupid "Sierra Utilities" and for not allowing me to install the game where I want! (X:\SIERRA\XXX) Regedit lets me get rid of that nonsense, but it's still annoying... l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

> > You mean like Sierra have destroyed Half-Life, Homeworld and the Blizzard > > titles? Moron. > I hate their guts just for the stupid "Sierra Utilities" and for not allowing > me to install the game where I want! (X:\SIERRA\XXX) What are you talking about? I installed N1999 in the following directory without any problems: c:\N1999... Granted, the stupid Sierra utilies installs itself automatically. Like I need more garbage on my hard disk.

I think that, especially considering the volumes of posts here daily, we as r.a.s readers should try and do something towards egging Papy to make sure N3 uses the GPL engine, even if it is just a whole bunch of emails (if anyone can find their address, post it!!)... -- Kirk Lane ICQ: 28171652 >>I just fear that Papyrus is not the company we all knew they were... Those >>people are not corporate business man. They are young guns, with talent, >>the leads in the industry that kept pushing the limits of racing simulation >>all those years and developing technology. This is the Papyrus that we >>know. >>From the E3 reports, it has disappeared, probably under the shiny wax of >>Sierra Sports (a.k.a. the Business corporation). >This is exactly the sort of post we saw 18 months ago. But GPL didn't >disappoint now did it? <g> >If N3 turns out to be nothing more than a minor update to N2 then many of >us indeed will be disappointed. But I haven't seen any statement to that >effect. Just because it won't be using the GPL physics doesn't have to mean >that it will be using an inferior version. At the end of the day it's how >the damn thing drives that matters, not how it is coded. >Let's wait and see before booking the hearse.... >Cheers, >Richard >-- >We all bump into each other every day of our lives, and we render our opinions >whether we know anything or not, and if anybody catches us out we lie...

Well the Sierra Utilities are a *** I'll admit but as I have a bunch of Sierra programs and it only installs once I can just about live with it. I just delete it from the Start menu and all is better :) M

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>> > You mean like Sierra have destroyed Half-Life, Homeworld and the >> > Blizzard titles? Moron. >> I hate their guts just for the stupid "Sierra Utilities" and for not >> allowing me to install the game where I want! (X:\SIERRA\XXX) >What are you talking about? I installed N1999 in the following directory >without any problems: c:\N1999... Granted, the stupid Sierra utilies >installs itself automatically. Like I need more garbage on my hard disk.

Hi, Will someone please change the name of this thread? If I have to see the phrase "has just digged" a couple more times I think my head is going to explode. neurotic, ~daxe -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

How's that Daxe ? :) -- Ian Parker ICQ 21772592

Well, it is an improvement, but I am still not sure if Papyrus is singular or plural. I mean, is Papyrus to be treated as a single entity or as a group of persons? Reminds me of the fish/fishes thing. A pond full of only bluegills may be referred to as containing many 'fish', but if you add in another species, the pond then contains many 'fishes'. Help me Spock, ~daxe -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

Maybe I should have said Papyrii, what do you think ? :) Well, I was never very good at English anyway. -- Ian Parker ICQ 21772592 > Well, it is an improvement, but I am still not sure if Papyrus is singular > or plural. I mean, is Papyrus to be treated as a single entity or as a group of > persons? Reminds me of the fish/fishes thing. A pond full of only bluegills > may be referred to as containing many 'fish', but if you add in another species, > the pond then contains many 'fishes'. > Help me Spock, > ~daxe