I sure miss Papy

I sure miss waiting on the next version of Nascar Racing from Papy, nothing to be excited about any more. :(

i think you spoke too soon ;) AD "mjones53" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I sure miss waiting on the next version of Nascar Racing from Papy,nothing > to be excited about any more. :( > >

I wanna hear the rumor? This is the second time this week Ive heard whispers about something new from Papy. AD wrote:

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> i think you spoke too soon ;) > > AD > "mjones53" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > >>I sure miss waiting on the next version of Nascar Racing from Papy, >

Seems like in previous years something has already leaked out by now. "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:OqnKb.7111$[email hidden]...

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> I wanna hear the rumor? This is the second time this week Ive heard > whispers about something new from Papy. > > AD wrote: > > i think you spoke too soon ;) > > > > AD > > "mjones53" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > >>I sure miss waiting on the next version of Nascar Racing from Papy, > > >

Here you go http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://racingmag.gamesweb.com/index.php%3Fop%3Dnews%26show%3D596 AD "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Seems like in previous years something has already leaked out by now. > > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:OqnKb.7111$[email hidden]... > > I wanna hear the rumor? This is the second time this week Ive heard > > whispers about something new from Papy. > > > > AD wrote: > > > i think you spoke too soon ;) > > > > > > AD > > > "mjones53" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > >>I sure miss waiting on the next version of Nascar Racing from Papy, > > > > > > >

http://www.m4driving.sm/content/nascar/news/1/9038.html Better link AD "AD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:btd1ef$bdf$[email hidden]... > Here you go > >http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://racingmag.gamesweb.com/index.php%3Fop%3Dnews%26show%3D596

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> > AD > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Seems like in previous years something has already leaked out by now. > > > > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:OqnKb.7111$[email hidden]... > > > I wanna hear the rumor? This is the second time this week Ive heard > > > whispers about something new from Papy. > > > > > > AD wrote: > > > > i think you spoke too soon ;) > > > > > > > > AD > > > > "mjones53" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > >>I sure miss waiting on the next version of Nascar Racing from Papy, > > > > > > > > > > > > >

http://www.m4driving.sm/content/nascar/news/1/9038.html Better link AD http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://racingmag.gamesweb.c...

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> AD > > Seems like in previous years something has already leaked out by now. > > > I wanna hear the rumor? This is the second time this week Ive heard > > > whispers about something new from Papy. > > > > i think you spoke too soon ;) > > > > AD > > > >>I sure miss waiting on the next version of Nascar Racing from Papy,

I'll believe it when I see it. Papy lost the rights the NASCAR sims to EA and if they were doing anything NCAR related we'd see something posted on their website by now. "AD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:btd1l0$bhm$[email hidden]...

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> http://www.m4driving.sm/content/nascar/news/1/9038.html > > Better link > > AD > "AD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:btd1ef$bdf$[email hidden]... > > Here you go > > > > >

http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://racingmag.gamesweb.com/index.php%3Fop%3Dnews%26show%3D596

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> > > > AD > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Seems like in previous years something has already leaked out by now. > > > > > > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:OqnKb.7111$[email hidden]... > > > > I wanna hear the rumor? This is the second time this week Ive heard > > > > whispers about something new from Papy. > > > > > > > > AD wrote: > > > > > i think you spoke too soon ;) > > > > > > > > > > AD > > > > > "mjones53" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > >>I sure miss waiting on the next version of Nascar Racing from

Papy,

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"Into EFF place ton resolve the issue that you acres having please follow thesis Instructions."??? I guess that's a babelfish mangle, but geez... To be honest with you I was really hoping they would do something else. I like NASCAR on TV but have never enjoyed it much as a game, regardless of who the developer was. I wish Papy would put their talents into some form of road racing again. "AD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:btd1l0$bhm$[email hidden]...

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> http://www.m4driving.sm/content/nascar/news/1/9038.html > > Better link > > AD > "AD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:btd1ef$bdf$[email hidden]... > > Here you go > > > > >

http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://racingmag.gamesweb.com/index.php%3Fop%3Dnews%26show%3D596 > > > > AD

I can't stand oval-track roundy-round racing, but N2003's physics model is far superior to GPL's for road racing, even in Cup cars (altho, granted, the Trans-Am mod is a lot more exciting). Alison Hine went back and forth on this issue, and finally became a believer (altho she still loves GPL, as do I). At one point, having compared the two, back to back, she referred to GPL as feeling like racing "on wooden tires." I know exactly what she means. As does Dave Kaemmer, who said, shortly before he left Papyrus, that he couldn't bear to race GPL any more because the tire modeling felt so primitive compared to N2003 (and he was no fan of stock-car racing). I now have over 50 perfectly acceptable N2003 natural-terrain road-racing circuits and am happier than a pig in poo. In addition to the much improved feel in N2003, the physics also models tire wear, which rewards more realistic driving techniques than GPL's arcade-y acceptance of tire-shredding maneuvers like the "stab save" (locking up all fours to kill a slide), which feeds into the pit-stop model, so you can really bring some strategy to bear on the outcome of online races. The king is dead. Long live the king! --Agent Smith "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "Into EFF place ton resolve the issue that you acres having please follow > thesis Instructions."??? I guess that's a babelfish mangle, but geez... > > To be honest with you I was really hoping they would do something else. I > like NASCAR on TV but have never enjoyed it much as a game, regardless of > who the developer was. I wish Papy would put their talents into some form > of road racing again. > > > "AD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:btd1l0$bhm$[email hidden]... > > http://www.m4driving.sm/content/nascar/news/1/9038.html > > > > Better link > > > > AD > > "AD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:btd1ef$bdf$[email hidden]... > > > Here you go > > > > > > > > >

http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://racingmag.gamesweb.com/index.php%3Fop%3Dnews%26show%3D596 > > > > > > AD > >

Steve Smith wrote: > I can't stand oval-track roundy-round racing, but N2003's physics model is > far superior to GPL's for road racing, even in Cup cars (altho, granted, the > I). At one point, having compared the two, back to back, she referred to > GPL as feeling like racing "on wooden tires." Of course. Back in those days they raced on rubber that probably was even harder than wood ;) >> The king is dead. Long live the king! Not quite :) I only partly agree with you here Steve; while NR2k3's physics and tyre models are undoubtedly more evolved, there's just one thing that it doesn't have: that evocative "feel" and the challenge that comes with racing those classic F1 cars. It's just more exiting than today's sports cars. I did race Papy's Nascar thingies and fun as they are, to me it doesn't quite give the same buzz as chasing Jim Clark's Lotus around the bends. GPL's cars are so razor-sharp, it's hard to find anything that compares - they go like jet fighters whereas Nascar-type cars feel like whales on wheels. The historical backgrounds and continuous flow of new and revived tracks also contrast nicely with today's rather bland racing environments. More romantic settings, you could say. The King may be old and outraced, but lives - and still is King! Regards, Rudy (GPLRank -21)

There is no "feel" of racing classic F1 cars in GPL 'cuz it ain't the real world; it's a sim! What yer feeling ain't hysteresis (look it up), it's the sum of bits and bytes. Admittedly, I like the *idea* of driving Formula One cars, but GPL's bolides feel (and act) more like arcade racers than RW cars. I don't like the idea (self-image?) of racing NASCAR's antedeluvian whales, but Papy's Cup cars feel (and act) a lot more like RW cars. If Papy's next sim was Shifter Karts, and the physics model was a further improvement, I'd drop N2003 like a lead balloon.... Physics Rules...at least at my house. "Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:btdrn4$kmk$[email hidden]... > Steve Smith wrote: > > > I can't stand oval-track roundy-round racing, but N2003's physics modelis > > far superior to GPL's for road racing, even in Cup cars (altho, granted,the > > > I). At one point, having compared the two, back to back, she referredto

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> > GPL as feeling like racing "on wooden tires." > > Of course. Back in those days they raced on rubber that probably was > even harder than wood ;) > > >> The king is dead. Long live the king! > > Not quite :) > > I only partly agree with you here Steve; while NR2k3's physics and tyre > models are undoubtedly more evolved, there's just one thing that it > doesn't have: that evocative "feel" and the challenge that comes with > racing those classic F1 cars. > > It's just more exiting than today's sports cars. I did race Papy's > Nascar thingies and fun as they are, to me it doesn't quite give the > same buzz as chasing Jim Clark's Lotus around the bends. > > GPL's cars are so razor-sharp, it's hard to find anything that compares > - they go like jet fighters whereas Nascar-type cars feel like whales on > wheels. > > The historical backgrounds and continuous flow of new and revived tracks > also contrast nicely with today's rather bland racing environments. More > romantic settings, you could say. > > The King may be old and outraced, but lives - and still is King! > > Regards, Rudy > (GPLRank -21) >

Mitch_A wrote:

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> > I wanna hear the rumor? This is the second time this week Ive heard > whispers about something new from Papy. > > AD wrote: > > i think you spoke too soon ;) > > > > AD > > "mjones53" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > >>I sure miss waiting on the next version of Nascar Racing from Papy,

This was reposted on the PWF board --- Greetings, I've been following your posts on the General Discussion forum regarding a release of NASCAR Racing 2004 Season. We here at Papyrus would like nothing more than to continue making NASCAR games. Originally we had planned to do so, but unfortunately our parent company, Sierra, no longer has the licensing rights that would allow us to do so. We had many new graphic and physics features planned and finished that would have made it into the release, such as fully viewable opponent pit crews, brake wear, tire blowouts, a nighttime rendering engine, and seamless multiplayer integration of 3rd party mods as was viewable in the NASCAR Racing 3 series. While we share your eagerness for a further continuation of our flagship product, practical realities dictate that this scenario will not come to fruition. The immediate future has us locked out of obtaining the NASCAR license as we would like, but who knows, a NASCAR Racing 2010 release could always be on the way. Or maybe even sooner, if circumstances change regarding the status of the current NASCAR licensing. In the meantime, we appreciate your interest and purchase of our game. Without your patronage, we would have never made it this far. Sincerely, Dave Kaemmer --- Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Someone should tell him he dosen't need the CRAPCAR name on it. Stock car racing 2004 would be just fine. Hell make it a Trans Am game that can be moded for stock cars. MadDAWG

"Steve Smith" wrote: > There is no "feel" of racing classic F1 cars in GPL 'cuz it ain't the real > world; it's a sim! What yer feeling ain't hysteresis (look it up), it'sthe > sum of bits and bytes. Admittedly, I like the *idea* of driving FormulaOne > cars, but GPL's bolides feel (and act) more like arcade racers than RWcars. > I don't like the idea (self-image?) of racing NASCAR's antedeluvianwhales, > but Papy's Cup cars feel (and act) a lot more like RW cars. If Papy'snext > sim was Shifter Karts, and the physics model was a further improvement,I'd > drop N2003 like a lead balloon.... Well Papy's Cup cars sure feel like they are heavy pigs of vehicles to drive - which is probably pretty close to what most of us drive in comparison to lightweight rear engined race cars. Personally I find the feel any GPL engined sim the best. Sure it is only a sim but it fools my brain into feeling the input attributed to "the seat of pants". Cup cars are cumbersome, heavy beasts, T/A less so and GPL cars lightweight, powerful machines with 60s tyre technology and the most fun in RL or sim IMHO. Cheers Tony

Steve Smith wrote: > There is no "feel" of racing classic F1 cars in GPL 'cuz it ain't the real > world; it's a sim! Too true! That's why it's the "feel" of racing classic F1 cars in a SIM! ;) What I meant was giving you the impression of racing back in the sixties, with matching cars - not the impression of getting in a REAL car, of course. > sum of bits and bytes. Admittedly, I like the *idea* of driving Formula One > cars, but GPL's bolides feel (and act) more like arcade racers than RW cars. Only if you race 'em arcade-like, imho. I don't, I don't even have the equipment to do so, and haven't noticed myself doing things I basically couldn't do in a real-world car (apart from going 200 mph and driving like a nutter, that is). Of course, the degree of accuracy is greater in modern sims, as it should be ('twould be a sad day for sim development if it wasn't). But hey, who knows what the Mod community comes up with in a year or two. In the meantime, I'd be very happy if the '65 GPL mod appears Real Soon Now - it should be improved in the accuracy department. >If Papy's next > sim was Shifter Karts, and the physics model was a further improvement, I'd > drop N2003 like a lead balloon.... Karts would be nice, but Caterham 7's or Formula Fords would be even nicer ;) I found Super 1 Karting not too bad in the karts 'sim' department though, some while ago. What I'd really want is a GPL2 with 1977 cars though! Or the Grand Prix Titans mod with the Silberpfeile of the 1930's. Slurp. > Physics Rules...at least at my house. Personally, I'm willing to live with yesterday's top notch physics of yesterday - if it's more fun and not too far off base ;) Regards, Rudy (GPLRank -21)

Good on ya. Saved me a lot of typing :) "Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:btdrn4$kmk$[email hidden]... > Steve Smith wrote: > > > I can't stand oval-track roundy-round racing, but N2003's physics modelis > > far superior to GPL's for road racing, even in Cup cars (altho, granted,the > > > I). At one point, having compared the two, back to back, she referredto

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> > GPL as feeling like racing "on wooden tires." > > Of course. Back in those days they raced on rubber that probably was > even harder than wood ;) > > >> The king is dead. Long live the king! > > Not quite :) > > I only partly agree with you here Steve; while NR2k3's physics and tyre > models are undoubtedly more evolved, there's just one thing that it > doesn't have: that evocative "feel" and the challenge that comes with > racing those classic F1 cars. > > It's just more exiting than today's sports cars. I did race Papy's > Nascar thingies and fun as they are, to me it doesn't quite give the > same buzz as chasing Jim Clark's Lotus around the bends. > > GPL's cars are so razor-sharp, it's hard to find anything that compares > - they go like jet fighters whereas Nascar-type cars feel like whales on > wheels. > > The historical backgrounds and continuous flow of new and revived tracks > also contrast nicely with today's rather bland racing environments. More > romantic settings, you could say. > > The King may be old and outraced, but lives - and still is King! > > Regards, Rudy > (GPLRank -21) >

Yeah, getting ripped off by paying full price for the 12 month addon/patch was really something to look forward too. Ever hear of FPS Football Pro. Sierra single handedly screwed that entire series with the same 12 month format. "mjones53" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I sure miss waiting on the next version of Nascar Racing from Papy,nothing > to be excited about any more. :( > >

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 03:55:37 GMT, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I can't stand oval-track roundy-round racing, but N2003's physics model is >far superior to GPL's for road racing, even in Cup cars (altho, granted, the >Trans-Am mod is a lot more exciting). So you're finally getting the Trans Am bug? You should install TPTCC and hit Sierra sometime. A surprisingly high ratio of familiar faces right now. BTW, slightly off topic, have you been playing with crossweight on road courses at all in n2003? I've been messing with wedge a bit, and with using assymetrical springs and/or shocks indycar 2 style, but the effort seems to be largely useless. Jason

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 03:55:37 GMT, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >In addition to the much improved >feel in N2003, the physics also models tire wear, which rewards more >realistic driving techniques than GPL's arcade-y acceptance of >tire-shredding maneuvers like the "stab save" (locking up all fours to kill >a slide), which feeds into the pit-stop model, so you can really bring some >strategy to bear on the outcome of online races. While the stab save doesn't work as well in N2003 (then again, if you're winning in gpl you aren't doing it anyway =), I find the ability to create setups where the brakes refuse to lock in most conditions is a little weird. At places like Moss or the fast right hander after Andretti at Mosport, I find myself using 100% brake travel and steering at the same time, which just doesn't feel right at all. The other thing that is starting to piss me off about road racing in n2003 is the number of tracks being released now with grip levels that fall outside of the 0.95 to 1.05 boundaries that Papy listed in the track.ini's that shipped with the game. This makes the "unlockable brakes" even more ridiculous. As a type this I'm looking at the track.ini for a track where odd car behavior is the norm (it's also probably the most popular road course on Sierra right now) and see that it has asphalt grip set to 1.09 and concrete at 1.15. What's awesome is that the people who made the track left the comment in the file that says "this should be between 0.9 and 1.05". Jason

Actually, SIERRA lost the rights. Thank you Sierra. Now Nascar has to live with mediocrity for the next 6 years. -Larry "Michael Horton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:k4oKb.174923$ss5.65422@clgrps13...

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> I'll believe it when I see it. Papy lost the rights the NASCAR sims to EA > and if they were doing anything NCAR related we'd see something posted on > their website by now. > > "AD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:btd1l0$bhm$[email hidden]... > > http://www.m4driving.sm/content/nascar/news/1/9038.html > > > > Better link > > > > AD > > "AD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:btd1ef$bdf$[email hidden]... > > > Here you go > > > > > > > > >

http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://racingmag.gamesweb.com/index.php%3Fop%3Dnews%26show%3D596 > > > > > > AD > > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Seems like in previous years something has already leaked out bynow. > > > > > > > > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:OqnKb.7111$[email hidden]... > > > > > I wanna hear the rumor? This is the second time this week Iveheard

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> > > > > whispers about something new from Papy. > > > > > > > > > > AD wrote: > > > > > > i think you spoke too soon ;) > > > > > > > > > > > > AD > > > > > > "mjones53" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > > > >>I sure miss waiting on the next version of Nascar Racing from > Papy, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

One thing to consider Larry. Papy didn't just squirt out NR2003. It was an evolution from N1. Give the guys at ISI a chance, theyve gotten real close with F1C and hopefully that translates well for future EA Nascar sims. IIRC arent the ISI team doing the Nascar sims? Mitch Larry wrote: > Actually, SIERRA lost the rights. Thank you Sierra. Now Nascar has to live > with mediocrity for the next 6 years. > > -Larry -- <<<--- Posted using Mozilla 5.0 for Linux x86 --->>>

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 02:30:49 GMT, Mitch_A <[email hidden]> wrote: >One thing to consider Larry. Papy didn't just squirt out NR2003. It >was an evolution from N1. Give the guys at ISI a chance, theyve gotten >real close with F1C and hopefully that translates well for future EA >Nascar sims. IIRC arent the ISI team doing the Nascar sims? F1C is pure, unadulterated garbage. The day ISI releases a sim where the tracks don't feel like they're littered with potholes, the tire model functions in a reasonably realistic manner, and multiplayer with 40 people works flawlessly, I'll reconsider. At the moment, it's not even in my top 3 sim list, and I suspect it will fall out of the top 5 when Richard Burns Rally and GTR are released. As it stands, I highly suspect GTR (not 2002, but the one that's apparently due for release this year) will likely be the best sim ever made with an ISI engine, and that's largely because the development team that is putting it together is most definitely going to work hard on fixing all 3 problems I mentioned above. Jason

> F1C is pure, unadulterated garbage. That's one of the grossest exaggerations I've ever read. > The day ISI releases a sim where the tracks don't feel like they're > littered with potholes, the tire model functions in a reasonably > realistic manner, and multiplayer with 40 people works flawlessly, > I'll reconsider. At the moment, it's not even in my top 3 sim list, > and I suspect it will fall out of the top 5 when Richard Burns Rally > and GTR are released. You're correct but you've blown things way out of proportion. > As it stands, I highly suspect GTR (not 2002, but the one that's > apparently due for release this year) will likely be the best sim ever > made with an ISI engine, and that's largely because the development > team that is putting it together is most definitely going to work hard > on fixing all 3 problems I mentioned above. We all hope so. I think everyone would agree that: ISI engine (with annoyances fixed) > N2003 engine

"Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:uyxKb.19396$[email hidden]: > There is no "feel" of racing classic F1 cars in GPL 'cuz it ain't the > real world; it's a sim! What yer feeling ain't hysteresis (look it > up), it's the sum of bits and bytes. Admittedly, I like the *idea* of > driving Formula One cars, but GPL's bolides feel (and act) more like > arcade racers than RW cars.Strangely, I find GPL cars behaving quite similar to RW road cars (not F1 bolids) on the gravel roads (all-season tyres) or on snowy/icy roads (winter tyres). What feels similar is the way corners are taken. Turn-in early putting the car in a bit of slide, at first the car slides, but then it gets more grip and settle into the corner. Of course it may not be that surprising, considering that the rubber on a road car is probably much closer to racing tyres of 67 than to modern slicks. Alex.

jason moyer wrote:

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> The other thing that is starting to piss me off about road racing in > n2003 is the number of tracks being released now with grip levels that > fall outside of the 0.95 to 1.05 boundaries that Papy listed in the > track.ini's that shipped with the game. This makes the "unlockable > brakes" even more ridiculous. As a type this I'm looking at the > track.ini for a track where odd car behavior is the norm (it's also > probably the most popular road course on Sierra right now) and see > that it has asphalt grip set to 1.09 and concrete at 1.15. What's > awesome is that the people who made the track left the comment in the > file that says "this should be between 0.9 and 1.05".

It's not just the grip. These high grip values allow people to use entirely wrong heat and wear parameters as well, as the high grip to an extent makes up for the grip lost due to excessive heat and wear. Some try to copy the pta style values Noonan's converter update introduced, but they get it all wrong IMO, and I'm wondering whether they don't know how they work, or they don't know TransAm tires seem to wear according to the info TransAm has given (it's on the PWF forum somewhere) and according to TransAm laptime charts. Even PWF themselves get it entirely wrong in their latest RC IMHO. I'm not happy at all with all these IMHO entirely unrealistic tire usage profiles. Achim

Not at all! The real secret, I believe, to N2003 setups--at least for the Cup cars--is messing with the weights. The reason? Cup cars are overweight and undertired, hence it pays huge dividends to get the weights spot on (made more difficult, of course, by that damned RF tire temp bug). I started out symmetrical and have not gotten further afield than Jacques Villeneuve in his CART days. I had left the track bar length alone until I tried the default setup that came w. the Nox (nitrous?) track, the best default setup shipped thus far. The TB had stretched to 10 in., so now I'm madly lengthening and shortening the TBs too! If you like, I'll send you a roadie setup and you let me know what you think. "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 03:55:37 GMT, "Steve Smith" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >I can't stand oval-track roundy-round racing, but N2003's physics modelis > >far superior to GPL's for road racing, even in Cup cars (altho, granted,the

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> >Trans-Am mod is a lot more exciting). > > So you're finally getting the Trans Am bug? > > You should install TPTCC and hit Sierra sometime. A surprisingly high > ratio of familiar faces right now. > > BTW, slightly off topic, have you been playing with crossweight on > road courses at all in n2003? I've been messing with wedge a bit, and > with using assymetrical springs and/or shocks indycar 2 style, but the > effort seems to be largely useless. > > Jason

Maybe you should check the pots on yer brake pedal. <VBG> Agreed, unrealistic grip levels are self-defeating, but I have no trouble locking the brakes almost anywhere. Again, it encourages realistic driving techniques in longer online races, 'cuz those who consistently lock 'em up have to pit for new rubber allowing me to slip thru for another win. "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 03:55:37 GMT, "Steve Smith" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >In addition to the much improved > >feel in N2003, the physics also models tire wear, which rewards more > >realistic driving techniques than GPL's arcade-y acceptance of > >tire-shredding maneuvers like the "stab save" (locking up all fours to

kill > >a slide), which feeds into the pit-stop model, so you can really bringsome

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> >strategy to bear on the outcome of online races. > > While the stab save doesn't work as well in N2003 (then again, if > you're winning in gpl you aren't doing it anyway =), I find the > ability to create setups where the brakes refuse to lock in most > conditions is a little weird. At places like Moss or the fast right > hander after Andretti at Mosport, I find myself using 100% brake > travel and steering at the same time, which just doesn't feel right at > all. > > The other thing that is starting to piss me off about road racing in > n2003 is the number of tracks being released now with grip levels that > fall outside of the 0.95 to 1.05 boundaries that Papy listed in the > track.ini's that shipped with the game. This makes the "unlockable > brakes" even more ridiculous. As a type this I'm looking at the > track.ini for a track where odd car behavior is the norm (it's also > probably the most popular road course on Sierra right now) and see > that it has asphalt grip set to 1.09 and concrete at 1.15. What's > awesome is that the people who made the track left the comment in the > file that says "this should be between 0.9 and 1.05". > > Jason

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:08:57 GMT, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Maybe you should check the pots on yer brake pedal. <VBG> > >Agreed, unrealistic grip levels are self-defeating, but I have no trouble >locking the brakes almost anywhere. I've determined it's the high grip being used for PTA. I ran a Glen race in cup cars last night (I haven't been touching anything but TPTCC for awhile) and went straight off at the inner loop because I drove straight to the 300 sign and slammed the brakes down without giving it a second thought. I then went back and ran an unnamed track in TPTCC with my own grip values (1.0 asphalt, 1.05 concrete) and not only did the car behave more realistically (IMHO) I had to actually use some degree of skill to trailbrake. And my laptimes were much closer to real trans am times at that track (granted, I'm not convinced that Papy was attempting to model a real car with that set of physics). The sad thing is, a lot of the GPL folk I talk to on a daily basis think n2003 is horrible because their only experience really is driving pta physics on overly grippy tracks. And while I enjoy both immensely and certainly consider n2003 to be a vastly superior product, it's tough going from the finesse driving of GPL to the stab and steer that works best in pta, even at the same tracks. I think the solution for me may be to just drive trucks on the roadies. =) Actually, I suspect I'm just going to start using 1.0 for asphalt grip everywhere when racing offline and deal with the extra grip online unless I'm hosting. Jason

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 09:58:54 +0100, Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Some try to copy the pta style values Noonan's converter update >introduced, but they get it all wrong IMO, and I'm wondering whether >they don't know how they work, or they don't know TransAm tires seem to >wear according to the info TransAm has given (it's on the PWF forum >somewhere) and according to TransAm laptime charts. > >Even PWF themselves get it entirely wrong in their latest RC IMHO. I'm >not happy at all with all these IMHO entirely unrealistic tire usage >profiles.

I've noticed most if not all Noonan tracks have really odd grip values as well. They're not nearly to the extreme a track like mosport_pwf goes to, but they're higher than the Papy recommendations. Jason

On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:07:50 -0500, "MadDAWG" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Someone should tell him he dosen't need the CRAPCAR name on it. Stock car >racing 2004 would be just fine. Hell make it a Trans Am game that can be >moded for stock cars. Fuck stock car racing 2004. There are plenty of great licenses out there that no one has touched in ages that they could use. Supercars, CART, Trans Am, and, hell, even lower formula classes like F2000 and F3000. There are dozens of classes of motorsport out there that don't have licensed sims, and yet everyone has been pumping out NASCAR and F1 for the last 5 years. I grew up with NASCAR/F1 so I don't have the dislike of them that some people do, but the same old thing being released year after year gets old. Jason

You forgot the Greatest Virgin Franchise of them all: Can-Am! The later years wouln't be much fun, dominated first by The Bruce & Denny Show, then by Penske's Panzers, but the early years would be a hoot, with interesting strategic choices among the Chaparral 2E, Lola-Chevy, Lola-Ford, McLaren M8A, Ferrari 512, Shadow, Honker, McKee, Caldwell, etc. Papy could do the cars and the tracks with their eyes closed, the licensing would be comparatively cheap, and the marquee value of the series lends itself to hype: The Most Powerful Road-Racing Cars Ever Built! Sigh.... "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:07:50 -0500, "MadDAWG" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Someone should tell him he dosen't need the CRAPCAR name on it. Stockcar

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> >racing 2004 would be just fine. Hell make it a Trans Am game that can be > >moded for stock cars. > > Fuck stock car racing 2004. There are plenty of great licenses out > there that no one has touched in ages that they could use. Supercars, > CART, Trans Am, and, hell, even lower formula classes like F2000 and > F3000. There are dozens of classes of motorsport out there that don't > have licensed sims, and yet everyone has been pumping out NASCAR and > F1 for the last 5 years. I grew up with NASCAR/F1 so I don't have the > dislike of them that some people do, but the same old thing being > released year after year gets old. > > Jason

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 20:32:37 GMT, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >You forgot the Greatest Virgin Franchise of them all: Can-Am! Oh yeah, I wasn't really going historic. Historic Can-Am, Trans-Am, 80's IMSA, etc. There's a ton of great simulation material out there waiting for people to use it. How about late 60's champcar? Those few years before USAC butchered the sport when we had Andretti, the Unsers, Foyt, Leonard, etc driving turbo open wheelers with primitive aero around classic road courses and ovals. Not to mention the dirt tracks that were still part of the championship. It would appeal to fans of dirt track racing and grand prix legends in one fell swoop, not to mention the near hysteria that a good sim with the Indy 500 would cause.. I'm salivating thinking about running a league where one week I'm sliding an Offy dirt car around Langhorne, the next I'm piloting a turbo Lotus wedge car around indy, the next I'm in a Brawner-Hawk at Mosport and St Jovite. It's surprising to me that after a game like IL-2 became such a success, no one has had another go at a proper historic racer. We all know GPL was a commercial failure, but I think it would be naive to assume it was due to either the subject matter or the difficulty. The racing sim community in 2003 is, imho, a lot larger and more dedicated than it was in 1998. Hell, in 98 I had been simming for most of the decade and still hadn't even purchased my first wheel. I would love to see Papy take another chance with a sim that isn't nascar. In fact, I think now would be the best time in their history to do it as they've garnered so much respect and attention with the last 3 nascar titles. You know as well as I do if they released a half-horsepower lawnmower sim that every gaming review site on the planet would be going nuts over how great it was and that there would be a huge online community for it. If Sierra spent a little cash putting kiosks and nice displays for it in wal-mart and electronics boutique and slapped a fat "FROM THE MAKERS OF NASCAR RACING" sticker on it I'm sure it would sell. Throw a big picture of Mario Andretti on the cover and you're all set, at least in the US. Jason

Mild disagreement. I think one of the reasons we don't have CART to kick around any more (unless you like abusing dead horses) is that its jack-of-all-trades orientation didn't hunt. I don't detect much crossover interest between dirt-track trailer-trash, oval-track low-lifes, and road-racing cogniscenti (ahem). Long after CART's oval races stopped putting asses in seats, road races like Mid-O were still packing 'em in. At its best, IndyCar Racing (as it was then known) was Can-Am with fenders. The one-size-fits-all approach lacks focus, interest, and (this is why the marketing-savvy sponsors deserted the series in in droves) actionable demographics. Otherwise, triathalons would outdraw baisbol, fussbol, and horse-track betting. After being shepherded by 3 alledged marketing geniuses (Stokkan, Heitzler and Pook), CART is all but dead. Q.E.D. And I can tell you from personal experience that Mario Andretti can't draw flies any more. Brock Yates gave wine from Mario's vinyards the place of honor in The Cannonball Pub (which is heavy on bench-racing types swilling brewskis amidst automobilia like the steering wheel from Fangio's Chevy) and never sold a single bottle. Sic transit and all that.... "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 20:32:37 GMT, "Steve Smith" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >You forgot the Greatest Virgin Franchise of them all: Can-Am! > > Oh yeah, I wasn't really going historic. Historic Can-Am, Trans-Am, > 80's IMSA, etc. There's a ton of great simulation material out there > waiting for people to use it. > > How about late 60's champcar? Those few years before USAC butchered > the sport when we had Andretti, the Unsers, Foyt, Leonard, etc driving > turbo open wheelers with primitive aero around classic road courses > and ovals. Not to mention the dirt tracks that were still part of the > championship. It would appeal to fans of dirt track racing and grand > prix legends in one fell swoop, not to mention the near hysteria that > a good sim with the Indy 500 would cause.. I'm salivating thinking > about running a league where one week I'm sliding an Offy dirt car > around Langhorne, the next I'm piloting a turbo Lotus wedge car around > indy, the next I'm in a Brawner-Hawk at Mosport and St Jovite. > > It's surprising to me that after a game like IL-2 became such a > success, no one has had another go at a proper historic racer. We all > know GPL was a commercial failure, but I think it would be naive to > assume it was due to either the subject matter or the difficulty. The > racing sim community in 2003 is, imho, a lot larger and more dedicated > than it was in 1998. Hell, in 98 I had been simming for most of the > decade and still hadn't even purchased my first wheel. > > I would love to see Papy take another chance with a sim that isn't > nascar. In fact, I think now would be the best time in their history > to do it as they've garnered so much respect and attention with the > last 3 nascar titles. You know as well as I do if they released a > half-horsepower lawnmower sim that every gaming review site on the > planet would be going nuts over how great it was and that there would > be a huge online community for it. If Sierra spent a little cash > putting kiosks and nice displays for it in wal-mart and electronics > boutique and slapped a fat "FROM THE MAKERS OF NASCAR RACING" sticker > on it I'm sure it would sell. Throw a big picture of Mario Andretti > on the cover and you're all set, at least in the US. > > Jason

jason moyer wrote: > I've determined it's the high grip being used for PTA You're definitely right on this one. Anything above 1.05 make the car feel like driving on glue. It deprives the car of the nice subtle movements that make the driving so interesting. On the other hand it also increases the suddenness and strength of the forces when the car breaks loose from having grip (I don't know the English term for this right now). Very unrealistic, and not even faster. I've reduced the grip value on two tracks I've beta tested so far by as much as 0.4, and not only was the driving a lot more fun, but I also got a tad faster. I think a 1.03 would be perfectly fine on most tracks. Achim

Joachim Trensz wrote: > I think a 1.03 would be perfectly fine on most tracks. Heck, why not go mental and go for a perfectly round 1.0? After all, if the design is right that's what the original track's grip oughta be ;) Regards, Rudy (GPLRank -21)

"Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:btip38$dnn$[email hidden]... > Joachim Trensz wrote: > > > I think a 1.03 would be perfectly fine on most tracks. > > Heck, why not go mental and go for a perfectly round 1.0? After all, > if the design is right that's what the original track's grip oughta be;) > > Regards, Rudy > (GPLRank -21) >If you look at bristol, the default cup asphalt grip is 1.12, california is 0.98. Steve

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > There are plenty of great licenses out there that no one has touched inages that they could use. One weird thought I've been pondering (after checking out the pics from Rolex 24 testing) is using the Papy engine for a Grand-Am Daytona Prototypes sim. Yes, the cars are largely ugly as sin, and not as exciting as ALMS LMP's, but the physics would more or less be PTA adjusted for mid-engine. Some quick tweaking, modelling 4-6 chassis, and Plus, given GA's close ties to NASCAR, Papy/Sierra would already have inroads toward the license. Just not sure if it would be commercially viable. OTOH, I certainly wouldn't turn down a SPEED GT/TC sim! That would take a bit more work with AWD and FWD thrown into the mix. -jde

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 00:38:52 -0500, "J.D. Ellis" <[email hidden]> wrote: >sim. Yes, the cars are largely ugly as sin, and not as exciting as ALMS >LMP's, but the physics would more or less be PTA adjusted for mid-engine. >Some quick tweaking, modelling 4-6 chassis, and > >Plus, given GA's close ties to NASCAR, Papy/Sierra would already have >inroads toward the license. That would be awesome. I also totally forgot about ALMS, which is yet another series that doesn't have an official game yet. Jason

Ruud Dingemans wrote: > Heck, why not go mental and go for a perfectly round 1.0? After all, > if the design is right that's what the original track's grip oughta be ;) :) Like Steve says, sometimes you need 1.0, sometimes 1.05 may be right. 1.03 is just an average I think would be appropriate. Achim

Steve, it's posts like this one that make me wish you were writing for a major mainstream motorsports publication...except then we'd have to pay for these little pearls! :-) don "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Ev0Lb.38981$[email hidden]... > Mild disagreement. I think one of the reasons we don't have CART to kick > around any more (unless you like abusing dead horses) is that its > jack-of-all-trades orientation didn't hunt. I don't detect much crossover > interest between dirt-track trailer-trash, oval-track low-lifes, and > road-racing cogniscenti (ahem). Long after CART's oval races stopped > putting asses in seats, road races like Mid-O were still packing 'em in.At

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> its best, IndyCar Racing (as it was then known) was Can-Am with fenders. > The one-size-fits-all approach lacks focus, interest, and (this is why the > marketing-savvy sponsors deserted the series in in droves) actionable > demographics. Otherwise, triathalons would outdraw baisbol, fussbol, and > horse-track betting. After being shepherded by 3 alledged marketing > geniuses (Stokkan, Heitzler and Pook), CART is all but dead. Q.E.D. > > And I can tell you from personal experience that Mario Andretti can't draw > flies any more. Brock Yates gave wine from Mario's vinyards the place of > honor in The Cannonball Pub (which is heavy on bench-racing types swilling > brewskis amidst automobilia like the steering wheel from Fangio's Chevy)

and

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> never sold a single bottle. Sic transit and all that.... > > "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 20:32:37 GMT, "Steve Smith" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >You forgot the Greatest Virgin Franchise of them all: Can-Am! > > > > Oh yeah, I wasn't really going historic. Historic Can-Am, Trans-Am, > > 80's IMSA, etc. There's a ton of great simulation material out there > > waiting for people to use it. > > > > How about late 60's champcar? Those few years before USAC butchered > > the sport when we had Andretti, the Unsers, Foyt, Leonard, etc driving > > turbo open wheelers with primitive aero around classic road courses > > and ovals. Not to mention the dirt tracks that were still part of the > > championship. It would appeal to fans of dirt track racing and grand > > prix legends in one fell swoop, not to mention the near hysteria that > > a good sim with the Indy 500 would cause.. I'm salivating thinking > > about running a league where one week I'm sliding an Offy dirt car > > around Langhorne, the next I'm piloting a turbo Lotus wedge car around > > indy, the next I'm in a Brawner-Hawk at Mosport and St Jovite. > > > > It's surprising to me that after a game like IL-2 became such a > > success, no one has had another go at a proper historic racer. We all > > know GPL was a commercial failure, but I think it would be naive to > > assume it was due to either the subject matter or the difficulty. The > > racing sim community in 2003 is, imho, a lot larger and more dedicated > > than it was in 1998. Hell, in 98 I had been simming for most of the > > decade and still hadn't even purchased my first wheel. > > > > I would love to see Papy take another chance with a sim that isn't > > nascar. In fact, I think now would be the best time in their history > > to do it as they've garnered so much respect and attention with the > > last 3 nascar titles. You know as well as I do if they released a > > half-horsepower lawnmower sim that every gaming review site on the > > planet would be going nuts over how great it was and that there would > > be a huge online community for it. If Sierra spent a little cash > > putting kiosks and nice displays for it in wal-mart and electronics > > boutique and slapped a fat "FROM THE MAKERS OF NASCAR RACING" sticker > > on it I'm sure it would sell. Throw a big picture of Mario Andretti > > on the cover and you're all set, at least in the US. > > > > Jason > >

But...but I *am* writing for a Major Motor Mag: I have a revu of the Ferrari laptop (well, it's actually a backmarker Acer in Maranello livery, but still the most beautimous laptop I've ever beheld) coming up soon in Car and Driver, and later a story on the DARPA robot-car race (L.A. to Vegas; a cool million to win!). "don hodgdon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:KcmLb.427481$J77.377812@fed1read07... > Steve, it's posts like this one that make me wish you were writing for a > major mainstream motorsports publication...except then we'd have to payfor

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> these little pearls! > > :-) don > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Ev0Lb.38981$[email hidden]... > > Mild disagreement. I think one of the reasons we don't have CART to

kick > > around any more (unless you like abusing dead horses) is that its > > jack-of-all-trades orientation didn't hunt. I don't detect muchcrossover > > interest between dirt-track trailer-trash, oval-track low-lifes, and > > road-racing cogniscenti (ahem). Long after CART's oval races stopped > > putting asses in seats, road races like Mid-O were still packing 'em in. > At > > its best, IndyCar Racing (as it was then known) was Can-Am with fenders. > > The one-size-fits-all approach lacks focus, interest, and (this is whythe > > marketing-savvy sponsors deserted the series in in droves) actionable > > demographics. Otherwise, triathalons would outdraw baisbol, fussbol,and > > horse-track betting. After being shepherded by 3 alledged marketing > > geniuses (Stokkan, Heitzler and Pook), CART is all but dead. Q.E.D. > > > > And I can tell you from personal experience that Mario Andretti can'tdraw > > flies any more. Brock Yates gave wine from Mario's vinyards the placeof > > honor in The Cannonball Pub (which is heavy on bench-racing typesswilling

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> > brewskis amidst automobilia like the steering wheel from Fangio's Chevy) > and > > never sold a single bottle. Sic transit and all that.... > > > > "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 20:32:37 GMT, "Steve Smith" > > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > >You forgot the Greatest Virgin Franchise of them all: Can-Am! > > > > > > Oh yeah, I wasn't really going historic. Historic Can-Am, Trans-Am, > > > 80's IMSA, etc. There's a ton of great simulation material out there > > > waiting for people to use it. > > > > > > How about late 60's champcar? Those few years before USAC butchered > > > the sport when we had Andretti, the Unsers, Foyt, Leonard, etc driving > > > turbo open wheelers with primitive aero around classic road courses > > > and ovals. Not to mention the dirt tracks that were still part of the > > > championship. It would appeal to fans of dirt track racing and grand > > > prix legends in one fell swoop, not to mention the near hysteria that > > > a good sim with the Indy 500 would cause.. I'm salivating thinking > > > about running a league where one week I'm sliding an Offy dirt car > > > around Langhorne, the next I'm piloting a turbo Lotus wedge car around > > > indy, the next I'm in a Brawner-Hawk at Mosport and St Jovite. > > > > > > It's surprising to me that after a game like IL-2 became such a > > > success, no one has had another go at a proper historic racer. We all > > > know GPL was a commercial failure, but I think it would be naive to > > > assume it was due to either the subject matter or the difficulty. The > > > racing sim community in 2003 is, imho, a lot larger and more dedicated > > > than it was in 1998. Hell, in 98 I had been simming for most of the > > > decade and still hadn't even purchased my first wheel. > > > > > > I would love to see Papy take another chance with a sim that isn't > > > nascar. In fact, I think now would be the best time in their history > > > to do it as they've garnered so much respect and attention with the > > > last 3 nascar titles. You know as well as I do if they released a > > > half-horsepower lawnmower sim that every gaming review site on the > > > planet would be going nuts over how great it was and that there would > > > be a huge online community for it. If Sierra spent a little cash > > > putting kiosks and nice displays for it in wal-mart and electronics > > > boutique and slapped a fat "FROM THE MAKERS OF NASCAR RACING" sticker > > > on it I'm sure it would sell. Throw a big picture of Mario Andretti > > > on the cover and you're all set, at least in the US. > > > > > > Jason > > > > > >

Heck with ALMS. How about Japanese Touring Cars? Check them out Thurday night on Speed.

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 23:21:08 GMT, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >The one-size-fits-all approach lacks focus, interest, and (this is why the >marketing-savvy sponsors deserted the series in in droves) actionable >demographics. Isn't a little odd that CART has no fanbase yet their biggest events draw far more people than the biggest F1 events? I still suspect if Tony George hadn't gotten a big head that CART would be right there with NASCAR, as it was in the early 90's. Jason

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 05:06:05 GMT, "Carl Cottrell" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Heck with ALMS. How about Japanese Touring Cars? Check them out Thurday >night on Speed. I wonder if Codemasters still has the JTCC license. I know they were included in Race Driver, dunno about Race Driver 2 or if there's any sort of exclusivity to their license. Jason

NASCAR has sucked all the air out of the room. Even w/o Tony George, I suspect CART would have been mismanaged into the grave. "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 23:21:08 GMT, "Steve Smith" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >The one-size-fits-all approach lacks focus, interest, and (this is whythe

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> >marketing-savvy sponsors deserted the series in in droves) actionable > >demographics. > > Isn't a little odd that CART has no fanbase yet their biggest events > draw far more people than the biggest F1 events? > > I still suspect if Tony George hadn't gotten a big head that CART > would be right there with NASCAR, as it was in the early 90's. > > Jason

Cool. I gave up on C&D years ago but I'll keep an eye out for your articles. don "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:b5nLb.45298$[email hidden]... > But...but I *am* writing for a Major Motor Mag: I have a revu of theFerrari > laptop (well, it's actually a backmarker Acer in Maranello livery, butstill > the most beautimous laptop I've ever beheld) coming up soon in Car and > Driver, and later a story on the DARPA robot-car race (L.A. to Vegas; acool

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> million to win!). > > "don hodgdon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:KcmLb.427481$J77.377812@fed1read07... > > Steve, it's posts like this one that make me wish you were writing for a > > major mainstream motorsports publication...except then we'd have to pay > for > > these little pearls! > > > > :-) don > > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:Ev0Lb.38981$[email hidden]... > > > Mild disagreement. I think one of the reasons we don't have CART to > kick > > > around any more (unless you like abusing dead horses) is that its > > > jack-of-all-trades orientation didn't hunt. I don't detect much > crossover > > > interest between dirt-track trailer-trash, oval-track low-lifes, and > > > road-racing cogniscenti (ahem). Long after CART's oval races stopped > > > putting asses in seats, road races like Mid-O were still packing 'em

in. > > At > > > its best, IndyCar Racing (as it was then known) was Can-Am withfenders.

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> > > The one-size-fits-all approach lacks focus, interest, and (this is why > the > > > marketing-savvy sponsors deserted the series in in droves) actionable > > > demographics. Otherwise, triathalons would outdraw baisbol, fussbol, > and > > > horse-track betting. After being shepherded by 3 alledged marketing > > > geniuses (Stokkan, Heitzler and Pook), CART is all but dead. Q.E.D. > > > > > > And I can tell you from personal experience that Mario Andretti can't > draw > > > flies any more. Brock Yates gave wine from Mario's vinyards the place > of > > > honor in The Cannonball Pub (which is heavy on bench-racing types > swilling > > > brewskis amidst automobilia like the steering wheel from Fangio's

Chevy)

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> > and > > > never sold a single bottle. Sic transit and all that.... > > > > > > "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 20:32:37 GMT, "Steve Smith" > > > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > > > >You forgot the Greatest Virgin Franchise of them all: Can-Am! > > > > > > > > Oh yeah, I wasn't really going historic. Historic Can-Am, Trans-Am, > > > > 80's IMSA, etc. There's a ton of great simulation material out

there > > > > waiting for people to use it. > > > > > > > > How about late 60's champcar? Those few years before USAC butchered > > > > the sport when we had Andretti, the Unsers, Foyt, Leonard, etcdriving > > > > turbo open wheelers with primitive aero around classic road courses > > > > and ovals. Not to mention the dirt tracks that were still part ofthe > > > > championship. It would appeal to fans of dirt track racing andgrand > > > > prix legends in one fell swoop, not to mention the near hysteriathat > > > > a good sim with the Indy 500 would cause.. I'm salivating thinking > > > > about running a league where one week I'm sliding an Offy dirt car > > > > around Langhorne, the next I'm piloting a turbo Lotus wedge cararound > > > > indy, the next I'm in a Brawner-Hawk at Mosport and St Jovite. > > > > > > > > It's surprising to me that after a game like IL-2 became such a > > > > success, no one has had another go at a proper historic racer. Weall > > > > know GPL was a commercial failure, but I think it would be naive to > > > > assume it was due to either the subject matter or the difficulty.The > > > > racing sim community in 2003 is, imho, a lot larger and morededicated > > > > than it was in 1998. Hell, in 98 I had been simming for most of the > > > > decade and still hadn't even purchased my first wheel. > > > > > > > > I would love to see Papy take another chance with a sim that isn't > > > > nascar. In fact, I think now would be the best time in theirhistory > > > > to do it as they've garnered so much respect and attention with the > > > > last 3 nascar titles. You know as well as I do if they released a > > > > half-horsepower lawnmower sim that every gaming review site on the > > > > planet would be going nuts over how great it was and that therewould > > > > be a huge online community for it. If Sierra spent a little cash > > > > putting kiosks and nice displays for it in wal-mart and electronics > > > > boutique and slapped a fat "FROM THE MAKERS OF NASCAR RACING"sticker

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> > > > on it I'm sure it would sell. Throw a big picture of Mario Andretti > > > > on the cover and you're all set, at least in the US. > > > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > > > > >

Well, I just don't feel the same way. Maybe in the future :) They have a LONG way to go to impress me. -Larry "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:tbKKb.653$[email hidden]...

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> One thing to consider Larry. Papy didn't just squirt out NR2003. It > was an evolution from N1. Give the guys at ISI a chance, theyve gotten > real close with F1C and hopefully that translates well for future EA > Nascar sims. IIRC arent the ISI team doing the Nascar sims? > > Mitch > > Larry wrote: > > Actually, SIERRA lost the rights. Thank you Sierra. Now Nascar has to

live

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> > with mediocrity for the next 6 years. > > > > -Larry > > > -- > <<<--- Posted using Mozilla 5.0 for Linux x86 --->>> >

CART = toooooo many ovals and toooooooo many South Americans. Especially that bitch that cries after winning back to back Indy 500s with mommy on hand - pitiful! He shoulda been banned for life after the first time he did that! Turned me RIGHT OFF. Where's the Rick Mears, Danny Sullivans, Al Unser Jrs, etc? Not having Indy 500 as centrepiece has been the biggest thing though I think. The ovals may be good for the spectators at the track but watching that stuff on the tele is a huge yawn. Michigan, Milwaukee and Indy 500 would be plenty for me personally. And a rule that says every team must have at least 1 native of the U.S. as a driver. Whatever that means :) "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:FywLb.129598$[email hidden]...

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> NASCAR has sucked all the air out of the room. Even w/o Tony George, I > suspect CART would have been mismanaged into the grave. > > "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 23:21:08 GMT, "Steve Smith" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >The one-size-fits-all approach lacks focus, interest, and (this is why > the > > >marketing-savvy sponsors deserted the series in in droves) actionable > > >demographics. > > > > Isn't a little odd that CART has no fanbase yet their biggest events > > draw far more people than the biggest F1 events? > > > > I still suspect if Tony George hadn't gotten a big head that CART > > would be right there with NASCAR, as it was in the early 90's. > > > > Jason > >

I think Papy ought to do something sort of like Grand Turismo for the Playstation. Only real tracks, race cars and more sim oriented. It would be cool to buy a Supra GT500 race car, a Toyota Atlantic, a winston cup car, Le Mans Prototype, etc. and go race online. Leagues could require certain class of cars or run multiple classes like endurance races. You could even throw in vintage as a next addon. Track addons. "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 05:06:05 GMT, "Carl Cottrell" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Heck with ALMS. How about Japanese Touring Cars? Check them out Thurday > >night on Speed. > > I wonder if Codemasters still has the JTCC license. I know they were > included in Race Driver, dunno about Race Driver 2 or if there's any > sort of exclusivity to their license. > > Jason

And it's also a series that is actively searching for new and better ways to build their fanbase. This sounds like a real possibility. I would kill to drive an LMP-675 in a Papy engine. "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > That would be awesome. I also totally forgot about ALMS, which is yet > another series that doesn't have an official game yet. > > Jason >

Never happen. Papy/Sierra's masters @ Vivendi are way too cheap. They lost NASCAR 'cuz larry Probst @ EA was willing to pay top dollar for the franchise. The French are notorious for buying up American properties when the exchange rate is favorable, then milking the cash cow and never putting anything back - look at Car and Driver! The only reason Sony is willing to pay exorbitant licensing fees for Gran Turismo (said to have 500 cars in its next iteration) is because they've sold over 15 *million* copies of the game thus far. At best, Papyrus' games sell less than one tenth of that.... "Carl Cottrell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:NnFLb.7519$[email hidden]... > I think Papy ought to do something sort of like Grand Turismo for the > Playstation. Only real tracks, race cars and more sim oriented. It wouldbe > cool to buy a Supra GT500 race car, a Toyota Atlantic, a winston cup car,Le > Mans Prototype, etc. and go race online. Leagues could require certainclass

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> of cars or run multiple classes like endurance races. You could even throw > in vintage as a next addon. Track addons. > > "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 05:06:05 GMT, "Carl Cottrell" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >Heck with ALMS. How about Japanese Touring Cars? Check them out Thurday > > >night on Speed. > > > > I wonder if Codemasters still has the JTCC license. I know they were > > included in Race Driver, dunno about Race Driver 2 or if there's any > > sort of exclusivity to their license. > > > > Jason > >