NASCAR REVOLUTION!!!!

What is this game, and when is it coming out??

>What is this game, and when is it coming out?? Oh SURE, and here I am at work without my "source!" According to MCV Magazine (a new magazine devoted to computer *** from an industry view vs. a consumer view [like PC Gamer et al.]) it's release date is mid-February 1999 (can't remember the EXACT date). The demo looked fairly close to being done. I _PLAN_ on being one of the first in line for it ('course, I'll be first in line for N3, too <GG>). Depends on how much they think it's worth. Currently I'm hoping for $30. If it's $40 I'll have to wait... "Gunner" ORSA #78 Navy Dodge

It looks like the next version of EA's NASCAR arcade racing series. I just read an ad which labels the game as "the first PC racing sim that you don't need a physics degree to drive." The first thing that came to my mind is, if you don't need a "physics degree" (chuckle), how can they call it a sim?

You guys crack me up. Dude I hate to burst your bubble but Nascar Revolution, Nascar 2, GPL, Viper, GP2, F1 Racing Sim ......ARE ALL GAMES ! How you guys post messages like your driving the real thing. We play these games to have fun, we are not driving the real thing. I have yet to see someone who plays Nascar 2 or any other game.....err sim, turn pro and get a ride with a REAL team. -Reality Check

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>>What is this game, and when is it coming out?? >It looks like the next version of EA's NASCAR arcade racing series. I >just read an ad which labels the game as "the first PC racing sim that >you don't need a physics degree to drive." The first thing that came >to my mind is, if you don't need a "physics degree" (chuckle), how can >they call it a sim?

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> You guys crack me up. Dude I hate to burst your bubble but Nascar > Revolution, Nascar 2, GPL, Viper, GP2, F1 Racing Sim ......ARE ALL GAMES ! > How you guys post messages like your driving the real thing. We play these > games to have fun, we are not driving the real thing. I have yet to see > someone who plays Nascar 2 or any other game.....err sim, turn pro and get > a ride with a REAL team. > -Reality Check > >>What is this game, and when is it coming out?? > >It looks like the next version of EA's NASCAR arcade racing series. I > >just read an ad which labels the game as "the first PC racing sim that > >you don't need a physics degree to drive." The first thing that came > >to my mind is, if you don't need a "physics degree" (chuckle), how can > >they call it a sim?

Hey Rodster! I think you are missing the point. We all know the simulations we play on our pc are games. Except, you can agree there's a difference between racing Mario Karts and Grand prix legends. Sure, you can powerslide in both games, but you must agree one game uses advanced physics and modeling while the other... well I won't say anymore. A lot a people in this newsgroup like games with similar depth as GPL. Guess the same is true of flight sims fans. They prefer Falcon 4.0 over Top Gun! Philster

Philippe, I agree with you. There are "GAMES" that emphasize realism. When it gets too realistic it usually isn't fun. GPL for example is a work of art in emphazing realism. It does it to a point where it's almost not enjoyable. Why? because you are missing the physical feedback, i.e. G-Forces, fatigue etc and other nuances that take place in a real car in real race conditions. What you get with a game that emphazises realism be it a Flight Combat or Racing game is, people have to think what the cars or planes limits are at so as not to exceed them. When you do exceed them and crash it can get frustrating. I aplaude EA Sports for coming out with Nascar Revolution. It's a "GAME" where the computer does most of the work for you and you get the feeling your in a race with a tough opponent. If we had ALL the phyical aspect of a real race car under real racing conditions built into one of these "GAMES" then they can truly be called a sim and there wouldn't be a need for this discussion. p.s - i'm not trolling, just looking to have an enlightened discussion on the subject.

I hate to burst YOUR bubble but if you go to www.speedcenter.com you can read the diaries of the infamous Darrell Cherry, who tore up everyone on IndyCar and IndyCar II, then NASCAR/Hawaii. He went to Skip Barber, and is doing quite well now in their series. Check out the "So ya wanna be a CART driver" section. Secondly, the guys at Papyrus have claimed that GPL has improved their REAL driving in the Barber Dodge cars because as the physics model got closer and closer to real life it acted as great training. Finally, the borderline between a game and a simulation can often be defined without regard to actual sim qualities of the product. That is, a flight simulator that is used to train real pilots might be just about as good on the PC, and just as valuable. Many real life pilots do a lot of sim flying, particularly for instrument flying work, because it has a direct beneficial effect on their skill without the cost of doing it in real life. Is GPL a game? Yeah, sure it is. No one denies that. But unlike most PC games, the addition of wheels and pedals means that much of your physical behavior mimics and is identical to your physical behavior in the car. The biggest difference is "feel", but that's more a matter of getting your mind trained to recognize audio/visual cues as opposed to physical cues. Once the mind has become thus trained, the illusion is complete. I have also gone out on the track after doing nothing but sims and thanks to lots of muscle memory from sims, prevented my car from spinning out more than once by doing exactly the right thing on the throttle and steering. I doubt the instinctive responses I needed would have been developed from day to day driving. I find the entire issue of "is it a 'just a game" to be an incredibly useless one, because those who argue "its just a game" are often incredibly simplistic in their arguments. They make what they perceived to be an irrefutable statement, while totally ignoring the physical and mental benefits of being a sim driver. Another note, aside from the fact that many real professional racers do enjoy racing sims, even texts on REAL race driving make reference to them. In "Think to Win" (which has a great forward from Mark Martin), video games are brought up several times as a way to improve your visual fields - e.g. what your eyes are focused on throughout the cornering sequence. GPL may be "just a game" to you, but it is far more than a game to most of the people here who drive it and love it. My limited experiences on real tracks with real cars has definitely validated the time I spent in realistic racing sims. Randy

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>You guys crack me up. Dude I hate to burst your bubble but Nascar >Revolution, Nascar 2, GPL, Viper, GP2, F1 Racing Sim ......ARE ALL GAMES ! >How you guys post messages like your driving the real thing. We play these >games to have fun, we are not driving the real thing. I have yet to see >someone who plays Nascar 2 or any other game.....err sim, turn pro and get >a ride with a REAL team. >-Reality Check

Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Randy, you said it EXTREMELY WELL!! I don't have much to add except that I like the Brabham because it FEELS like the car I autocross in terms of trailbraking (not too fond of it) and in trailing-throttle oversteer situations. In short, it's familiar. And for a "game" to be that similar, it goes beyond game into "sim" status... like the flight stuff Randy mentioned... --Dave -- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe > I hate to burst YOUR bubble but if you go to www.speedcenter.com you > can read the diaries of the infamous Darrell Cherry, who tore up > everyone on IndyCar and IndyCar II, then NASCAR/Hawaii. He went to > Skip Barber, and is doing quite well now in their series. Check out > the "So ya wanna be a CART driver" section. > Secondly, the guys at Papyrus have claimed that GPL has improved their > REAL driving in the Barber Dodge cars because as the physics model got > closer and closer to real life it acted as great training. > Finally, the borderline between a game and a simulation can often be > defined without regard to actual sim qualities of the product. That > is, a flight simulator that is used to train real pilots might be just > about as good on the PC, and just as valuable. Many real life pilots > do a lot of sim flying, particularly for instrument flying work, > because it has a direct beneficial effect on their skill without the > cost of doing it in real life. Is GPL a game? Yeah, sure it is. No > one denies that. But unlike most PC games, the addition of wheels and > pedals means that much of your physical behavior mimics and is > identical to your physical behavior in the car. The biggest > difference is "feel", but that's more a matter of getting your mind > trained to recognize audio/visual cues as opposed to physical cues. > Once the mind has become thus trained, the illusion is complete. > I have also gone out on the track after doing nothing but sims and > thanks to lots of muscle memory from sims, prevented my car from > spinning out more than once by doing exactly the right thing on the > throttle and steering. I doubt the instinctive responses I needed > would have been developed from day to day driving. > I find the entire issue of "is it a 'just a game" to be an incredibly > useless one, because those who argue "its just a game" are often > incredibly simplistic in their arguments. They make what they > perceived to be an irrefutable statement, while totally ignoring the > physical and mental benefits of being a sim driver. Another note, > aside from the fact that many real professional racers do enjoy racing > sims, even texts on REAL race driving make reference to them. In > "Think to Win" (which has a great forward from Mark Martin), video > games are brought up several times as a way to improve your visual > fields - e.g. what your eyes are focused on throughout the cornering > sequence. > GPL may be "just a game" to you, but it is far more than a game to > most of the people here who drive it and love it. My limited > experiences on real tracks with real cars has definitely validated the > time I spent in realistic racing sims. > Randy > >You guys crack me up. Dude I hate to burst your bubble but Nascar > >Revolution, Nascar 2, GPL, Viper, GP2, F1 Racing Sim ......ARE ALL GAMES ! > >How you guys post messages like your driving the real thing. We play these > >games to have fun, we are not driving the real thing. I have yet to see > >someone who plays Nascar 2 or any other game.....err sim, turn pro and get > >a ride with a REAL team. > >-Reality Check > Randy Magruder > http://members.home.com/rmagruder

The Rodster wrote conditions. I see your point. But that fact is... since years and years the Hard-core simracers and also the public has used words to determinate the difference. Just think about them being semantics. We know they are all games. They are purchased in the games section at a store. What we mean is that there's virtual reality (we almost need to call this that now) that emphase on realism (called sims) and others that emphase on the arcade style (called arcade games). It's just a way to differency the games. GPL is a sim, but Nascar Revolution is an arcade game. So another time... it's just the way we make the difference between 2given racing software. We all know it's a game. But when your racing seriously for prizes and cash like on the NROS, it's still a game or now a sport ? But are sports games also ? Ha sorry, we talked about that for at least the past 4years here, and there's no official concensus yet. -= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -= May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Although nobody from sim-racing has gotten ride with a major racing series, that does not mean that they do not do any "real" racing. Serveral sim-racers now drive street stocks, legends cars, and late models at their local short tracks because of their love for racing in general. The NASCAR Busch Series Champion Dale Earnhardt Jr. has raced hundreds of times on TEN and he has said himself that it helps him in real life. Gary243

I guess that's where I differ with you all. I hear guys talking about these game as if it's preparing them for the 1999 Formula 1 season. Then they bash others who ask a simple question about a game and brush it off as "arcade" and how this game is"hard core". To me when I hear the term "hard core" it's like hearing the term computer "geek" or "nerd". I still don't understand why all the labels. Can't gamers just call them for what they are, and say this game emphasises realism etc? When I see a 'racing game player' turn "Pro" i.e. get a ride with a real car with a real team, and become very competitive, then I will turn see the light. p.s. just to let you guys know i'm enjoying the debate/discussion. this isn't a troll.

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>I hate to burst YOUR bubble but if you go to www.speedcenter.com you >can read the diaries of the infamous Darrell Cherry, who tore up >everyone on IndyCar and IndyCar II, then NASCAR/Hawaii. He went to >Skip Barber, and is doing quite well now in their series. Check out >the "So ya wanna be a CART driver" section. >Secondly, the guys at Papyrus have claimed that GPL has improved their >REAL driving in the Barber Dodge cars because as the physics model got >closer and closer to real life it acted as great training. >Finally, the borderline between a game and a simulation can often be >defined without regard to actual sim qualities of the product. That >is, a flight simulator that is used to train real pilots might be just >about as good on the PC, and just as valuable. Many real life pilots >do a lot of sim flying, particularly for instrument flying work, >because it has a direct beneficial effect on their skill without the >cost of doing it in real life. Is GPL a game? Yeah, sure it is. No >one denies that. But unlike most PC games, the addition of wheels and >pedals means that much of your physical behavior mimics and is >identical to your physical behavior in the car. The biggest >difference is "feel", but that's more a matter of getting your mind >trained to recognize audio/visual cues as opposed to physical cues. >Once the mind has become thus trained, the illusion is complete. >I have also gone out on the track after doing nothing but sims and >thanks to lots of muscle memory from sims, prevented my car from >spinning out more than once by doing exactly the right thing on the >throttle and steering. I doubt the instinctive responses I needed >would have been developed from day to day driving. >I find the entire issue of "is it a 'just a game" to be an incredibly >useless one, because those who argue "its just a game" are often >incredibly simplistic in their arguments. They make what they >perceived to be an irrefutable statement, while totally ignoring the >physical and mental benefits of being a sim driver. Another note, >aside from the fact that many real professional racers do enjoy racing >sims, even texts on REAL race driving make reference to them. In >"Think to Win" (which has a great forward from Mark Martin), video >games are brought up several times as a way to improve your visual >fields - e.g. what your eyes are focused on throughout the cornering >sequence. >GPL may be "just a game" to you, but it is far more than a game to >most of the people here who drive it and love it. My limited >experiences on real tracks with real cars has definitely validated the >time I spent in realistic racing sims. >Randy >>You guys crack me up. Dude I hate to burst your bubble but Nascar >>Revolution, Nascar 2, GPL, Viper, GP2, F1 Racing Sim ......ARE ALL GAMES ! >>How you guys post messages like your driving the real thing. We play these >>games to have fun, we are not driving the real thing. I have yet to see >>someone who plays Nascar 2 or any other game.....err sim, turn pro and

get >>a ride with a REAL team. >>-Reality Check >Randy Magruder >http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Well, most of us don't have the time or money or youth to pursue a racing career. That doesn't mean we aren't serious about it. We want as realistic an experience as possible. The general public and most of the 'Gamer' crowd wants a quick fix that goes fast <a la NFS 3>. While these games are enjoyable, they aren't 'racing' to the 'Sim Racer'. We want as much realism as possible. There are 'games' and there are 'sims'. A game is something you can play that is fun and fictitious. A sim is something that gives you the 'feel' of being in a race car and having to work and practice to improve. Is it the real thing? Is it going to get us a ride with a pro team? No and No? But the bottom line is for us Sim-Racing is about real racing. NFS and the arcade games are games. GPL, N2 is more 'real racing'. -Richard

Simple...Nascar Revoulution is just EA Sports Nascar 99 for the Playstation brought to the PC....much better graphics (and you'll need a monster machine and video card to run them)...game sucks....pure arcade...Go Papyrus...

So does a well produced game. If a racing game is done properly it can provide a feeling of being in a tough race. I've never said people who like realistic racing games aren't serious about those games. I'm saying that there's a big difference between ficiton and reality. The reality is we play these games and get good at them and there are you're Micheal Schumacher's who make millions from racing and endorsments. >But the bottom line is for us Sim-Racing is about real >racing. NFS and the arcade games are games. >GPL, N2 is more 'real racing'. Sounds to me like people are trying to live out a dream through a racing game.

The problem with that statement is that they are all games we pay to play. While the real drivers make millions from winning "real" races and are paid millions from endoresments. Any of these games can produce a certain level of enjoyment and challenge to different individuals. And yet the bottom line is when the race is over we either turn off our N64, Playstation or PC. The real drivers are earning millions of dollars from the real thing, while we act out our dreams of being like them through a racing game. This is not a flame on your statement. I understand what your saying, I just see things a little differently. >Simple...Nascar Revoulution is just EA Sports Nascar 99 for the Playstation >brought to the PC....much better graphics (and you'll need a monster machine >and video card to run them)...game sucks....pure arcade...Go Papyrus...

But there's a difference with aiding a real driver in developing his or hers skills, and becoming a real driver like Earnhardt Jr. by playing these games.

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>Although nobody from sim-racing has gotten ride with a major racing series, >that does not mean that they do not do any "real" racing. Serveral >sim-racers now drive street stocks, legends cars, and late models at their >local short tracks because of their love for racing in general. The NASCAR >Busch Series Champion Dale Earnhardt Jr. has raced hundreds of times on TEN >and he has said himself that it helps him in real life. >Gary243

Yeah? What, like having Daddy buy you all the best equipment? -Dave

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> But there's a difference with aiding a real driver in developing his or hers > skills, and becoming a real driver like Earnhardt Jr. by playing these > games. > >Although nobody from sim-racing has gotten ride with a major racing series, > >that does not mean that they do not do any "real" racing. Serveral > >sim-racers now drive street stocks, legends cars, and late models at their > >local short tracks because of their love for racing in general. The NASCAR > >Busch Series Champion Dale Earnhardt Jr. has raced hundreds of times on TEN > >and he has said himself that it helps him in real life. > >Gary243

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Are you referring to Earnhardt Jr. ? Not a big fan of his anyway. -Rodster

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>Yeah? What, like having Daddy buy you all the best equipment? >-Dave >> But there's a difference with aiding a real driver in developing his or

hers

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>> skills, and becoming a real driver like Earnhardt Jr. by playing these >> games. >> >Although nobody from sim-racing has gotten ride with a major racing

series, >> >that does not mean that they do not do any "real" racing. Serveral >> >sim-racers now drive street stocks, legends cars, and late models at their >> >local short tracks because of their love for racing in general. The NASCAR >> >Busch Series Champion Dale Earnhardt Jr. has raced hundreds of times on TEN

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>> >and he has said himself that it helps him in real life. >> >Gary243 >-- >Dave Schwabe >The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site >http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Yeah... sorry, since SIM racing is all I can really afford (apart from autocrossing my street car), I guess guys like E Jr. who have their "path plowed for them" by dad get my goat. His competitor, Matt Kenseth, however, is another story. I'm from Wisconsin and I met him a few times when I was a racing writer at a newspaper. He was about 18 then, basically poor and did ALL of his own crew work. I'm not sure he even HAD a crew... he basically was just a scrawny grease monkey. But he perservered and he's in a great position now. THAT I can respect... not E Jr. -Dave

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> Are you referring to Earnhardt Jr. ? Not a big fan of his anyway. > -Rodster > >Yeah? What, like having Daddy buy you all the best equipment? > >-Dave > >> But there's a difference with aiding a real driver in developing his or > hers > >> skills, and becoming a real driver like Earnhardt Jr. by playing these > >> games. > >> >Although nobody from sim-racing has gotten ride with a major racing > series, > >> >that does not mean that they do not do any "real" racing. Serveral > >> >sim-racers now drive street stocks, legends cars, and late models at > their > >> >local short tracks because of their love for racing in general. The > NASCAR > >> >Busch Series Champion Dale Earnhardt Jr. has raced hundreds of times on > TEN > >> >and he has said himself that it helps him in real life. > >> >Gary243 > >-- > >Dave Schwabe > >The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site > >http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Well, here's my somewhat subjective take on the "is it a sim, or is it a game" issue. A sim by definition is not reality (and of course neither is a "game"). So what's the difference? To my mind a simulation, using the best available technology attempts, through as many observations of the real world (i.e., in the case of racing simulations, real world physics), to "simulate" reality. A game, OTOH, only tries to "mimic" reality. As in, if a car attempts to take a corner faster than the "game" developer thinks is feasible he/she programs in a routine that "mimics" what the programer thinks should happen. And probably can only use a limited number of "canned routines". A simulation uses the observations (real world physics) and the results are the results, and sometimes seem infinite in number of possibilities. Which is why I think GPL is very difficult for some (most?). It's hard to get a handle on what's going to happen the next time I enter/exit a particular corner (depending on weight shift, braking, line, suspension suppleness, etc). Throw in a few "TOCA-like" cheats and it becomes easier and easier for me to tell the difference. I'm not even crazy about so-called career modes (they seem kind of limited). I'm not sure whether anyone going from a game/sim to real world participation has anything to do with it. P.S. A little off topic, but I've always liked Hemingway's rule to determine if it's a game or sport. I don't have the exact quote but it goes something like: If the participants are risking their lives it's sport, everything else is a game. Car racing is sport, football is a game. In 1967 car racing was more sport than it is today. -Mike

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> But there's a difference with aiding a real driver in developing his or hers > skills, and becoming a real driver like Earnhardt Jr. by playing these > games. > >Although nobody from sim-racing has gotten ride with a major racing series, > >that does not mean that they do not do any "real" racing. Serveral > >sim-racers now drive street stocks, legends cars, and late models at their > >local short tracks because of their love for racing in general. The NASCAR > >Busch Series Champion Dale Earnhardt Jr. has raced hundreds of times on TEN > >and he has said himself that it helps him in real life. > >Gary243

Rodster, I'm not sure what you're point is. I *think* one of the following: a) Sims are the same as games. or b) Sims and games are different than reality. or c) I have no point. I simply enjoy making inflammatory comments, that have no basis in fact. Otherwise known as talking from one's... :) At any rate, to answer your last statement, specifically: Yes, sims and games do exactly this for people. I can't believe that is any ground breaking discovery on your part - but, it may well be. And responding to some other possible points: Sims and games are not reality. They are modeled after reality, and sometimes they are based purely in fiction. It's called entertainment. There are a few major mediums through which people seek entertainment, computers being one. and Sims and games are both a form of entertainment used on computers and *** consoles. The two terms refer to degrees of realism. Example: In GPL, if I hold the accelerator to the floor during entry to a sharp turn, odds are that I will not exit that turn facing forward, if at all. In contrast, in Need for Speed 3, if I do the same, I may hang the vehicle out wildly beyond the scope of reality, and then "save" it and continue out of the corner at a high rate of speed. By this comparison, we see that GPL "simulates" reality much more accurately than Need for Speed 3. Hence the term "simulator," or "sim" when shortened. Some people like one, some people like the other. They are different. This concludes Games and Sims 101. You're assignment for tomorrow is to read chapters 4 and 5 of "Four Wheel Drift," and write a one page essay on whether you think the "wheelie" and "horn ball" keys make a sim a game or not. There will be a quiz tomorrow on efficient VROC modem setup. Extra credit will be given for sub-1:27:00 laps at Monza. Bring your replays. :) Brett

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> So does a well produced game. If a racing game is done properly it can > provide a feeling of being in a tough race. > I've never said people who like realistic racing games aren't serious about > those games. I'm saying that there's a big difference between ficiton and > reality. The reality is we play these games and get good at them and there > are you're Micheal Schumacher's who make millions from racing and > endorsments.

Well, who ever told you (here or anywhere) that he would become a pro race driver by driving sims on his PC. Everybody who responded to you said, a statement like that would be silly. So? It's not a black and white issue, put on a scale it would look like this starting with arcade and ending with sims: NFS3 - SpeedBusters - CMR - N2 - F1RS1/2 - GPL If you really can't see the difference between the start and the end of this chain (or the shades of diff in the middle), I'm at a loss... Bingo! You know, it's the same with the flight sims I love. I have no interest or talent to become an F16 pilot, but I love flying them on my PC. BUT, if I already am limited to a simulation, this plane better not fly like a frisbee. l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

The Rodster wrote I would like you to please to check out this website : http://www.nros.com/ This is Nascar's 14th division, a sanctioned series using Nascar racing 2 as a software, and considered as a sport than a game. Prizes, sanctioned racing, Nascar officials, money, etc.. "Where to you want to go today?" -= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -= May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

All I was saying was that Dale Jr. has said that driving in N2 does help him prepare for real life racing. His father owning the team has nothing to do with this this topic.

I don't have a problem with that Mike. In fact I think you have stated your idea very well. My problem becomes this, and this all started by one guy asking the simple question has anyone heard of Nascar Revolution and is it any good? The first reply was "it sucks, it's arcady". Well the game isn't even out yet. Some take the position as if their looking down off the almighty racing game mountain and pass judgements for everyone else. I think it would be more fitting to say to an individual like that...well they (EA Sports) tend to leave out certain aspects of their games that tend to not make them as realistic, as other games. Then the person could decide if they should by a racing title like GPL or NFSIII. In reality I have played "ALL" the racing titles to date with the exception of Viper and GPL. ALL the racing titles from NFSIII to GPL can offer some entertainment value.To me that's where I differ with most here, and 'it's not a knock or slam on anyone here'. I just view these games as entertainment, and try not to take them too seriously. I have played Nascar Revolution and yes it picks up where Nascar 99 for the Playstation left off last year. Honestly it's both fun and challenging. Sadly though more and more *** companies are going the route of EA. Nascar 99 for the PSX was their top selling game.

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>Well, here's my somewhat subjective take on the "is it a sim, or is it a >game" issue. >A sim by definition is not reality (and of course neither is a "game"). >So what's the difference? To my mind a simulation, using the best >available technology attempts, through as many observations of the real >world (i.e., in the case of racing simulations, real world physics), to >"simulate" reality. A game, OTOH, only tries to "mimic" reality. As >in, if a car attempts to take a corner faster than the "game" developer >thinks is feasible he/she programs in a routine that "mimics" what the >programer thinks should happen. And probably can only use a limited >number of "canned routines". A simulation uses the observations (real >world physics) and the results are the results, and sometimes seem >infinite in number of possibilities. Which is why I think GPL is very >difficult for some (most?). It's hard to get a handle on what's going >to happen the next time I enter/exit a particular corner (depending on >weight shift, braking, line, suspension suppleness, etc). >Throw in a few "TOCA-like" cheats and it becomes easier and easier for >me to tell the difference. I'm not even crazy about so-called career >modes (they seem kind of limited). >I'm not sure whether anyone going from a game/sim to real world >participation has anything to do with it. >P.S. A little off topic, but I've always liked Hemingway's rule to >determine if it's a game or sport. I don't have the exact quote but it >goes something like: If the participants are risking their lives it's >sport, everything else is a game. Car racing is sport, football is a >game. In 1967 car racing was more sport than it is today. >-Mike >> But there's a difference with aiding a real driver in developing his or

hers

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>> skills, and becoming a real driver like Earnhardt Jr. by playing these >> games. >> >Although nobody from sim-racing has gotten ride with a major racing

series, >> >that does not mean that they do not do any "real" racing. Serveral >> >sim-racers now drive street stocks, legends cars, and late models at their >> >local short tracks because of their love for racing in general. The NASCAR >> >Busch Series Champion Dale Earnhardt Jr. has raced hundreds of times on TEN >> >and he has said himself that it helps him in real life. >> >Gary243

Buzzzzzzzzzzzzzz! I have a life! Johnny tell him what he's won.

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>This concludes Games and Sims 101. You're assignment for tomorrow is >to read chapters 4 and 5 of "Four Wheel Drift," and write a one page >essay on whether you think the "wheelie" and "horn ball" keys make a >sim a game or not. There will be a quiz tomorrow on efficient VROC >modem setup. Extra credit will be given for sub-1:27:00 laps at >Monza. Bring your replays. :) >Brett

...Or, if it hasn't been said already (this is becoming quite the long thread), why not download the demo and find out for yourself. My apologies if this has already been said. It was probably the first posted response :o) Regards, Steve

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>I don't have a problem with that Mike. In fact I think you have stated your >idea very well. My problem becomes this, and this all started by one guy >asking the simple question has anyone heard of Nascar Revolution and is it >any good? >The first reply was "it sucks, it's arcady". Well the game isn't even out >yet. Some take the position as if their looking down off the almighty

racing

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>game mountain and pass judgements for everyone else. I think it would be >more fitting to say to an individual like that...well they (EA Sports) tend >to leave out certain aspects of their games that tend to not make them as >realistic, as other games. Then the person could decide if they should by a >racing title like GPL or NFSIII. >In reality I have played "ALL" the racing titles to date with the exception >of Viper and GPL. ALL the racing titles from NFSIII to GPL can offer some >entertainment value.To me that's where I differ with most here, and 'it's >not a knock or slam on anyone here'. I just view these games as >entertainment, and try not to take them too seriously. >I have played Nascar Revolution and yes it picks up where Nascar 99 for the >Playstation left off last year. Honestly it's both fun and challenging. >Sadly though more and more *** companies are going the route of EA. >Nascar 99 for the PSX was their top selling game. >>Well, here's my somewhat subjective take on the "is it a sim, or is it a >>game" issue. >>A sim by definition is not reality (and of course neither is a "game"). >>So what's the difference? To my mind a simulation, using the best >>available technology attempts, through as many observations of the real >>world (i.e., in the case of racing simulations, real world physics), to >>"simulate" reality. A game, OTOH, only tries to "mimic" reality. As >>in, if a car attempts to take a corner faster than the "game" developer >>thinks is feasible he/she programs in a routine that "mimics" what the >>programer thinks should happen. And probably can only use a limited >>number of "canned routines". A simulation uses the observations (real >>world physics) and the results are the results, and sometimes seem >>infinite in number of possibilities. Which is why I think GPL is very >>difficult for some (most?). It's hard to get a handle on what's going >>to happen the next time I enter/exit a particular corner (depending on >>weight shift, braking, line, suspension suppleness, etc). >>Throw in a few "TOCA-like" cheats and it becomes easier and easier for >>me to tell the difference. I'm not even crazy about so-called career >>modes (they seem kind of limited). >>I'm not sure whether anyone going from a game/sim to real world >>participation has anything to do with it. >>P.S. A little off topic, but I've always liked Hemingway's rule to >>determine if it's a game or sport. I don't have the exact quote but it >>goes something like: If the participants are risking their lives it's >>sport, everything else is a game. Car racing is sport, football is a >>game. In 1967 car racing was more sport than it is today. >>-Mike >>> But there's a difference with aiding a real driver in developing his or >hers >>> skills, and becoming a real driver like Earnhardt Jr. by playing these >>> games. >>> >Although nobody from sim-racing has gotten ride with a major racing >series, >>> >that does not mean that they do not do any "real" racing. Serveral >>> >sim-racers now drive street stocks, legends cars, and late models at >their >>> >local short tracks because of their love for racing in general. The >NASCAR >>> >Busch Series Champion Dale Earnhardt Jr. has raced hundreds of times on >TEN >>> >and he has said himself that it helps him in real life. >>> >Gary243

To get a drive with a real team you'd need to have been driving since you were a brat. Since most drivers are at least ***agers, I don't think too many sims or games were around in the early 80's...? Cheers! John

...otherwise stated in RAS as, "it sucks, it's arcady." :) It's an opinion. A suggestion - try not to let how others feel about a game/sim bother you, even if others don't word their opinions exactly the way you would like. To assume that stating one's _opinion_ is "passing judgements for everyone else" is simply wrong. Your complaint (above) that people should word their opinions in a more "diplomatic" manner, seems to conflict directly with the manner in which you post - which, to me, seems quite argumentative and, sometimes, insulting. Of course, that's just my opinion. :) Your previous posts seem, to me, to imply that you dislike, or at least do not prefer, or have a problem with people who do prefer, realism in driving games. I'm happy for you, if you can play any driving game and have fun. However, this _is_ rec.autos.simulators, and realism has always and will always be a major consideration taken by most of the people who offer their opinions here. If that bothers you, maybe you should start alt.games.driving, or rec.autos.simulators.playable.with.gamepad, or something to that effect. And can't we all, regardless of anyone else's opinion, or how they state it, make decisions ourselves? You seem to be implying that the stating of one person's opinion here in RAS would hinder the decision-making ability of another person. I think not. Brett

I can assure you there are some, including myself, that take NROS a bit more seriously than this :) -Larry > How you guys post messages like your driving the real thing. We play these > games to have fun, we are not driving the real thing. I have yet to see > someone who plays Nascar 2 or any other game.....err sim, turn pro and get > a ride with a REAL team. > -Reality Check

I was wondering when someone was going to say that... Sheesh... -Larry > Yeah? What, like having Daddy buy you all the best equipment? > -Dave