Braking

In almost every online race I have participated in recently there have been a few guys who could brake in a much shorter distance than the others. This often adds up to a difference of as much as 2 seconds per lap. I haven't been concentrating on braking much because I have always been told that line and exit speed are more important. But some work with replay analyzers has shown me that braking is my weakest point relative to the aliens and the primary thing that is keeping me in the middle of the pack. So I would really like to hear from some of the experts. How are you able to brake in so much shorter distance than other people? This happens even in fixed setup leagues like RASCAR so I don't think it has anything to do with setup. I also don't think it's equipment. Some people just seem to have a better feel for it than others, and I want that skill! ;o) Any hints you can give would be highly appreciated, and probably not just by me.

"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> In almost every online race I have participated in recently there have been > a few guys who could brake in a much shorter distance than the others. This > often adds up to a difference of as much as 2 seconds per lap. I haven't > been concentrating on braking much because I have always been told that line > and exit speed are more important. But some work with replay analyzers has > shown me that braking is my weakest point relative to the aliens and the > primary thing that is keeping me in the middle of the pack. So I would > really like to hear from some of the experts. How are you able to brake in > so much shorter distance than other people? This happens even in fixed > setup leagues like RASCAR so I don't think it has anything to do with setup. > I also don't think it's equipment. Some people just seem to have a better > feel for it than others, and I want that skill! ;o) Any hints you can give > would be highly appreciated, and probably not just by me. >

In a similar vein, the TPTCC league just finished its round at Heartland Park. A track with many Square corners. But in the back section there is a Quick left/right/left between two straights and at the entrance to that I was loosing 1/2 second each lap to the guy behind me. I'd spend the rest of the lap building up a small cushion only to see him chop off another big chunk at that one corner entry. At other times I have often heard, in Papyrus sims, cars behind me still at full power while I'm already lifting/braking and downshifting. I kept waiting for the big rearend hit because I was lifting so much earlier than the other cars. I can brake later...I just can't make the turn. dave henrie

In article <[email hidden]>, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> writes:

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> At other times I have often heard, in Papyrus sims, cars behind me still >at full > power while I'm already lifting/braking and downshifting. > I kept waiting for the big rearend hit because I was lifting so much >earlier than >the other cars. > I can brake later...I just can't make the turn.

Been there, done that. It usually ends one of two ways: 1 - the trailing car spins trying to avoid me at a huge closing rate 2 - I get punted by the trailing car. The excuse being, "You braked WAY too early!" Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Braking has always been my worst "feature," in both real and simulated braking. I can't figure it out either...especially how guys can keep in from looping with the extreme rear brake-bias often used in GPL. There, the explan. may be in simultaneous throttle+brake application (cf. prev. discussion of Rubens & Schui @ Silver last year), but that doesn't seem to apply to N2003, at least not to the same degree. Then there's the "accordian effect" when the guy behind closes up under braking. Ultimately, I think some guys are just better than thee/me under braking. The way I compensate is to focus on line and exit speed to the exclusion of almost everything else. That is, not to get so desperate w. my braking efforts that I mess up the line (getting the car positioned for the exit) and thus mess up my exit speed. Plus making the car Double Wide going into the corner. If they can't get around me under braking, I can usually fend 'em off on the subsequent straight. P.S. If you find out what kind of Particle Physics (or other supernatural force) is aiding these Aliens, lemme know, willya? "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In almost every online race I have participated in recently there havebeen > a few guys who could brake in a much shorter distance than the others.This > often adds up to a difference of as much as 2 seconds per lap. I haven't > been concentrating on braking much because I have always been told thatline > and exit speed are more important. But some work with replay analyzershas > shown me that braking is my weakest point relative to the aliens and the > primary thing that is keeping me in the middle of the pack. So I would > really like to hear from some of the experts. How are you able to brakein > so much shorter distance than other people? This happens even in fixed > setup leagues like RASCAR so I don't think it has anything to do withsetup. > I also don't think it's equipment. Some people just seem to have a better > feel for it than others, and I want that skill! ;o) Any hints you cangive > would be highly appreciated, and probably not just by me. > >

> I also don't think it's equipment. I have no idea what type of wheel/pedal setup you have, but I just ditched my red MOMO for a MSFF, and it made a world of differance. MadDAWG

Absolutely, Dawg. My ECCI pedals were worth a second or two a lap almost anywhere in GPL, and the TSW pedals I use with my Logi MOMO wheel are likewise indispensible equipment. You can't *begin* to modulate threshold braking with the flimsy, short-throw plastic pedals that come with most wheels. Also, most third-party/aftermarket wheels allow you to very the pedal pressure (ECCI had a pneumatic device that allowed you to adjust for a *progressively* stiffer pedal), which is critical for dialing in the best *feel*. "MadDAWG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4015187d$[email hidden]...

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> > I also don't think it's equipment. > > I have no idea what type of wheel/pedal setup you have, but I just ditched > my red MOMO for a MSFF, and it made a world of differance. > > MadDAWG > >

Since you mention this is also a problem in fixed setups, I suppose we can count brake bias out. Obviously, the more rear brake bias you can handle (up to the point just b4 the rears start to lock b4 the fronts of course), the greater the braking potential of the car. So..... Firstly, the simple thing is the skills that come from experience ie laps done. Being able to brake later is a matter of being able to a) handle heavy braking at high speeds, particularly with aggressive brake bias b) Being able to throw the car into a corner and handle it - notice the word "throw" rather than drive :) Both of these come from endless laps and endless daring! :) The best drivers are expert at anticipating what the car is about to do and and stopping it from doing it. The difference between aliens and the rest is that a situation that results in most drivers losing control is a situation that an alien sees as routine about a dozen times or more per lap. And these natural/instincive recovery skills just get better over time - one gets a feel for them. Also, being able to brake whilst turning in is crucial as well. This will make a huge difference to anyone not presently doing this. And, of course, the deeper the better. A few other things to tinker with whilst developing these skills are the relationship between brake bias and the turn in characteristics of the suspension. More rear brake bias makes the car turn in better under braking but harder to handle. Less makes it turn in less but may inspire more confidence and the ability to brake more aggressively. Have fun - do a lot of laps and BE DARING. The more you walk the tightrope the better you get at it. Just practice offline! :) "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In almost every online race I have participated in recently there havebeen > a few guys who could brake in a much shorter distance than the others.This > often adds up to a difference of as much as 2 seconds per lap. I haven't > been concentrating on braking much because I have always been told thatline > and exit speed are more important. But some work with replay analyzershas > shown me that braking is my weakest point relative to the aliens and the > primary thing that is keeping me in the middle of the pack. So I would > really like to hear from some of the experts. How are you able to brakein > so much shorter distance than other people? This happens even in fixed > setup leagues like RASCAR so I don't think it has anything to do withsetup. > I also don't think it's equipment. Some people just seem to have a better > feel for it than others, and I want that skill! ;o) Any hints you cangive > would be highly appreciated, and probably not just by me. > >

Haqsau wrote: > I haven't > been concentrating on braking much because I have always been told that line > and exit speed are more important. Seems to me that the advice is "get line and exits right first, as they the most important, and THEN work on braking to get the last bit". I gpl the rumour is to use the tire squeal to determine the braking threshold, you want just the faintest bit of squeal. Trail-braking also helps, lets you go just a little bit deeper, but requires good control to keep on the line. Still haven't figured it out for the TA mod yet, but do know that loud screeching noises and smoke coming out from the fenders is past threshold. :-) Do you have good resistance in your brake pedal? A squash ball under mine made a big difference, especially with left foot braking. HTH Ken

PMB2 Steve. I just ordered a set thats Momo Force compatible :) "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Dl8Rb.86270$[email hidden]... > Absolutely, Dawg. My ECCI pedals were worth a second or two a lap almost > anywhere in GPL, and the TSW pedals I use with my Logi MOMO wheel are > likewise indispensible equipment. You can't *begin* to modulate threshold > braking with the flimsy, short-throw plastic pedals that come with most > wheels. Also, most third-party/aftermarket wheels allow you to very the > pedal pressure (ECCI had a pneumatic device that allowed you to adjust fora > *progressively* stiffer pedal), which is critical for dialing in the best > *feel*. >

"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> In almost every online race I have participated in recently there have > been a few guys who could brake in a much shorter distance than the > others. This often adds up to a difference of as much as 2 seconds > per lap. I haven't been concentrating on braking much because I have > always been told that line and exit speed are more important. But > some work with replay analyzers has shown me that braking is my > weakest point relative to the aliens and the primary thing that is > keeping me in the middle of the pack. So I would really like to hear > from some of the experts. How are you able to brake in so much > shorter distance than other people? This happens even in fixed setup > leagues like RASCAR so I don't think it has anything to do with setup. > I also don't think it's equipment. Some people just seem to have a > better feel for it than others, and I want that skill! ;o) Any hints > you can give would be highly appreciated, and probably not just by me.

Be sure to have engine braking also help the brakes. This makes a world of a difference for stopping in a shorter distance. Don't pop the gears down like an F1 car, but learn at which speed your gear rations have which rpm When doing that, if you notice the tires going "squeak, squeak, squeak" when you downshift, just give a little throttle to bring up the engine rpm (heal-toe downshift). As other have mentioned, finding the limit of the tire when braking also help. With GPL the tire squeal was easier to judge with, but with NR2003 you'll have to experiment more. Find the point before the tires lockup. My method for braking for most corners usually to apply full brake pressure at the start of the brake point (harder to lock tires when going faster) when gradually release some brake pressure and modulate if needed. Probably the ultimate corner to test this is the corner after the long straight at Lemans (bsarthe track). You aproach that corner at 215mph (i do anyway.. don't know about the aliens), so you have a long braking zone. If you turn on the "race line" help, I find I am able to brake 2-3 car length later than the marked brake zone. If you brake for that corner and just put on the brakes and don't downshift, its hard to even get the corner at the marked brake point. -- josh boudreau josh at kfoo dot net

Which hails into question the whole "trail braking" argument (braking whilst turning). In the same revelations re Schui and Rubens at Silver last year, it's obvious that braking in a straight line makes the car slow down faster (you're at the northern edge of the traction circle), but leaves yer inside line unprotected. Trail braking (you're at, say, the northwestern edge of the circle diving into a righthand turn) allows you to brake later and avoid spiking outside the circle during the transient, but requires a lot more skill (Doug Arnao, wearing his driving instructor's hat--er, helmet--won't teach this technique to any but his best students). Using the throttle whilst braking allows you to shift the weight rearward at will, thus maximizing the available traction, but requires even more skill (and, in the RW, Brembo brakes as big as manhole covers). Professional driver on a closed course. Don't try this at home...except in your driveway (if it's real long) or on yer 'puta. "Byron John Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Since you mention this is also a problem in fixed setups, I suppose we > can count brake bias out. Obviously, the more rear brake bias you canhandle > (up to the point just b4 the rears start to lock b4 the fronts of course), > the greater the braking potential of the car. So..... > > Firstly, the simple thing is the skills that come from experience ielaps

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> done. Being able to brake later is a matter of being able to > > a) handle heavy braking at high speeds, particularly with > aggressive brake bias > b) Being able to throw the car into a corner and handle it - > notice the word "throw" rather than drive :) > > Both of these come from endless laps and endless daring! :) The best > drivers are expert at anticipating what the car is about to do and and > stopping it from doing it. The difference between aliens and the rest is > that a situation that results in most drivers losing control is a

situation > that an alien sees as routine about a dozen times or more per lap. Andthese > natural/instincive recovery skills just get better over time - one gets a > feel for them. > > Also, being able to brake whilst turning in is crucial as well. Thiswill > make a huge difference to anyone not presently doing this. And, of course, > the deeper the better. > > A few other things to tinker with whilst developing these skills arethe > relationship between brake bias and the turn in characteristics of the > suspension. More rear brake bias makes the car turn in better underbraking > but harder to handle. Less makes it turn in less but may inspire more > confidence and the ability to brake more aggressively. Have fun - do a lot > of laps and BE DARING. The more you walk the tightrope the better you getat

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> it. Just practice offline! :) > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In almost every online race I have participated in recently there have > been > > a few guys who could brake in a much shorter distance than the others. > This > > often adds up to a difference of as much as 2 seconds per lap. I

haven't

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> > been concentrating on braking much because I have always been told that > line > > and exit speed are more important. But some work with replay analyzers > has > > shown me that braking is my weakest point relative to the aliens and the > > primary thing that is keeping me in the middle of the pack. So I would > > really like to hear from some of the experts. How are you able to brake > in > > so much shorter distance than other people? This happens even in fixed > > setup leagues like RASCAR so I don't think it has anything to do with > setup. > > I also don't think it's equipment. Some people just seem to have a

better

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> > feel for it than others, and I want that skill! ;o) Any hints you can > give > > would be highly appreciated, and probably not just by me. > > > > > >

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 07:36:20 -0500, "MadDAWG" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I have no idea what type of wheel/pedal setup you have, but I just ditched >my red MOMO for a MSFF, and it made a world of differance. I have a non-FF Sidewinder and the pedals are pure heaven. I went through half a dozen wheels before this one and I now own 2. Haven't seen anything in the past 4 years I'd trade them for. Jason

I think part of it may be analog pedals vs. digital pedals. Digital Pedals, such as the MSFFW, have 64 'steps', or available output levels. Analog Pedals are near-infinite. I think those with analog pedals are at a slight advantage here. -Larry "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In almost every online race I have participated in recently there havebeen > a few guys who could brake in a much shorter distance than the others.This > often adds up to a difference of as much as 2 seconds per lap. I haven't > been concentrating on braking much because I have always been told thatline > and exit speed are more important. But some work with replay analyzershas > shown me that braking is my weakest point relative to the aliens and the > primary thing that is keeping me in the middle of the pack. So I would > really like to hear from some of the experts. How are you able to brakein > so much shorter distance than other people? This happens even in fixed > setup leagues like RASCAR so I don't think it has anything to do withsetup. > I also don't think it's equipment. Some people just seem to have a better > feel for it than others, and I want that skill! ;o) Any hints you cangive > would be highly appreciated, and probably not just by me. > >

I've absolutely noticed that as well. -Larry "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote innews:[email hidden]: > At other times I have often heard, in Papyrus sims, cars behind mestill at full > power while I'm already lifting/braking and downshifting. > I kept waiting for the big rearend hit because I was lifting so muchearlier than > the other cars. > I can brake later...I just can't make the turn. > > dave henrie

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 18:41:43 GMT, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Don't try this at home...except in your driveway (if it's >real long) or on yer 'puta. Even on yer puta, if it's GPL, save that left foot for the floor/clutch pedal. =p Jason (RFB 4 EVER)

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 17:19:40 GMT, Josh Boudreau <[email hidden]> wrote: >Be sure to have engine braking also help the brakes. This makes a world >of a difference for stopping in a shorter distance. Don't pop the gears >down like an F1 car, but learn at which speed your gear rations have >which rpm When doing that, if you notice the tires going "squeak, squeak, >squeak" when you downshift, just give a little throttle to bring up the >engine rpm (heal-toe downshift). If you're talking N2003, the fastest way to brake is to downshift like a modern F1 car. I've yet to damage an engine/gearbox in either the cup/truck/pta physics by braking hard and immediately working down to the gear I want to exit the upcoming corner in (actually, some corners I downshift further than the gear I'm going to accelerate in to make the engine braking stronger, then shift up before gassing it). Jason

I agree (damn, that's twice in one day LOL!). The MS Wheel Pedals are the best _consumer_ grade pedals going. -Larry "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 07:36:20 -0500, "MadDAWG" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >I have no idea what type of wheel/pedal setup you have, but I justditched

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> >my red MOMO for a MSFF, and it made a world of differance. > > I have a non-FF Sidewinder and the pedals are pure heaven. I went > through half a dozen wheels before this one and I now own 2. Haven't > seen anything in the past 4 years I'd trade them for. > > Jason

> PMB2 Steve. I just ordered a set thats Momo Force compatible :) > PMB2??? Whose are those? dave henrie

Me too. "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 17:19:40 GMT, Josh Boudreau <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Be sure to have engine braking also help the brakes. This makes a world > >of a difference for stopping in a shorter distance. Don't pop the gears > >down like an F1 car, but learn at which speed your gear rations have > >which rpm When doing that, if you notice the tires going "squeak, squeak, > >squeak" when you downshift, just give a little throttle to bring up the > >engine rpm (heal-toe downshift). > > If you're talking N2003, the fastest way to brake is to downshift like > a modern F1 car. I've yet to damage an engine/gearbox in either the > cup/truck/pta physics by braking hard and immediately working down to > the gear I want to exit the upcoming corner in (actually, some corners > I downshift further than the gear I'm going to accelerate in to make > the engine braking stronger, then shift up before gassing it). > > Jason

Steve was refering to Pressure modulated Braking in a previous post so I was just being specific as to the name (and bragging cause I just purchased a set hehe:). PMB2 For the ECCI 6000 pedals PMB for the 4000's. "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > PMB2 Steve. I just ordered a set thats Momo Force compatible :) > > > > PMB2??? Whose are those? > > dave henrie

"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:IAfRb.16544$[email hidden]: > Steve was refering to Pressure modulated Braking in a previous post so I was > just being specific as to the name (and bragging cause I just purchased a > set hehe:). PMB2 For the ECCI 6000 pedals PMB for the 4000's. > So just like the old saying goes...If I had to ask, they are too much!! dave henrie

Not THAT much. Base Price $259 PMB2 $79 SH $30 Total $358 I never used a decent clutch model in a sim yet with my Perf pedals so I figurered no need for greater expense with these, though I do use it to look behind in F1c/mods :) The MAIN reason I went this route now is it was the only Momo compatible unit left.at ECCI :-) All new production is going towards wheel/pedal units so they say. I figure Ill just do it in stages as Ive always done. The new BRD Speed7 wheel sounds mighty tasty too and I got a 40th knockin at my doorstep :) Mitch "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > So just like the old saying goes...If I had to ask, they are too much!! > > dave henrie

It is just something that you will have to get the feel for. I think it is based on instincts. I am kinda caucious so my instincts tell me to brake early. My tactic has been to brake 2 seconds later than I want to. Doing that I am usually competitive in the leagues in which I race. Shock "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In almost every online race I have participated in recently there havebeen > a few guys who could brake in a much shorter distance than the others.This > often adds up to a difference of as much as 2 seconds per lap. I haven't > been concentrating on braking much because I have always been told thatline > and exit speed are more important. But some work with replay analyzershas > shown me that braking is my weakest point relative to the aliens and the > primary thing that is keeping me in the middle of the pack. So I would > really like to hear from some of the experts. How are you able to brakein > so much shorter distance than other people? This happens even in fixed > setup leagues like RASCAR so I don't think it has anything to do withsetup. > I also don't think it's equipment. Some people just seem to have a better > feel for it than others, and I want that skill! ;o) Any hints you cangive > would be highly appreciated, and probably not just by me. > >

I use a Momo Racing wheel and pedal set. The pedal pressure actually feels pretty good, very progressive. Not sure how they compare to others but I think they are probably better than the pedals that came with old red and probably about comparable to the MSFF pedals. The only real problem I have noticed that is definitely hardware related is that they are autocalibrating, which means that if I don't remember to press them up and down a few times before driving the range is usually way off. "Ken MacKay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Do you have good resistance in your brake pedal? A squash ball under minemade

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> a big difference, especially with left foot braking. > > HTH > Ken > > >

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (EldredP) writes: >2 - I get punted by the trailing car. The excuse being, "You braked WAY too >early!" And, this just happened in a race last night at Silverstone(end of Hangar Straight. Fortunately, the other driver was on the side of me instead of behind me. I hit the brakes *later* than my normal braking point, and STILL caught him unawares. He shot past me like I was standing still. Frustrating, dammit... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, "Byron John Forbes" <[email hidden]> writes: > Also, being able to brake whilst turning in is crucial as well. This will >make a huge difference to anyone not presently doing this. And, of course, >the deeper the better. For me, braking whilst turning usually results in me suddenly sliding backwards towards an immovable object. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <zdhRb.6339$[email hidden]>, "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> writes: >I figure Ill just do it in stages as Ive always done. The new BRD Speed7 >wheel sounds mighty tasty too and I got a 40th knockin at my doorstep :) Eh, you're just a KID...<g> (40 in 2003) Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <wt7Rb.85894$[email hidden]>, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> writes: >The way I compensate is to focus on line and exit speed to the exclusion of >almost everything else. That is, not to get so desperate w. my braking >efforts that I mess up the line (getting the car positioned for the exit) >and thus mess up my exit speed. I get killed with exit speed as well. They got me coming and going. If I slow earlier(so as not be desperate), I just go through the corner slower. It doesn't help exit speed at ALL. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <Dl8Rb.86270$[email hidden]>, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Absolutely, Dawg. My ECCI pedals were worth a second or two a lap almost >anywhere in GPL, and the TSW pedals I use with my Logi MOMO wheel are >likewise indispensible equipment. You can't *begin* to modulate threshold >braking with the flimsy, short-throw plastic pedals that come with most >wheels. Also, most third-party/aftermarket wheels allow you to very the >pedal pressure (ECCI had a pneumatic device that allowed you to adjust for a >*progressively* stiffer pedal), which is critical for dialing in the best >*feel*. > >"MadDAWG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:4015187d$[email hidden]... >> > I also don't think it's equipment. >> >> I have no idea what type of wheel/pedal setup you have, but I just ditched >> my red MOMO for a MSFF, and it made a world of differance.

I don't think it's equipment either. But, I've never had the chance to drive someone else's rig, and vice-versa. There may be something wrong in my setup that would slap someone else in the face because it's so obvious. But with nothing else to compare it to... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote: > For me, braking whilst turning usually results in me suddenly sliding backwards > towards an immovable object. Well, the back is SUPPOSED to go and slide, so you got it at least HALF right... <g> I don't find it easy either, only use it here & there, but then I got single-axis el-cheapo pedals. What did help though, was learning to use the engine for braking (in GPL). Made slowing down a whole lot less hectic... Regards, Rudy (GPLRank -21)

I didnt say I was 40 yet ya ole geezer :) 40 in 05. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <zdhRb.6339$[email hidden]>, "Mitch_A" > > Eh, you're just a KID...<g> > (40 in 2003) > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Member > Screamers Racing League > IICC League > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress > N2k3 rank:in progress > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Just thought I'd chip in with something not mentioned yet (unless I missed a post). It's VERY important to apply the brakes gradually. What I mean is don't stamp on them to their full travel at the moment you wish to brake. This essentially causes massive weight shift forward, which is harder to "brake" against, hence you generally have your "full travel" set at about 80% of potential braking force to avoid lock up. By "set at" I mean you've either got the squash ball, or other method of restricting travel OR your foot is just educated at that level. If you press the brake at 10% for a split second, just to compress the springs, then squeeze it to maximum, you will end up being able to use more braking force than you could before for the later part of the braking. This is not going to stop those folks flying by you under braking as they are no doubt experts at gas+brake but it does work to lower lap times,. even if you end up braking a fraction earlier at first, until you get used to it. Coming off the brake properly is equally important, don't jump off it at the moment of turn in, or you'll decrease your potential cornering grip by at least 20%, you need to ease off it AS you turn in (this isn't "specifically" trail-braking). Maxx PS. I know it's been a while since I posted here. I still read r.a.s. regularly but rarely have the time to post.

This is the technique Ken Miles used to employ to get guys off his tail. Always worked...with newbies, wouldbies, and has-beens. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] (EldredP) writes: > > >2 - I get punted by the trailing car. The excuse being, "You braked WAYtoo > >early!" > > And, this just happened in a race last night at Silverstone(end of Hangar > Straight. Fortunately, the other driver was on the side of me instead of > behind me. I hit the brakes *later* than my normal braking point, andSTILL > caught him unawares. He shot past me like I was standing still.Frustrating,

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> dammit... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Member > Screamers Racing League > IICC League > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress > N2k3 rank:in progress > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

What Malc said (above): REAL important, esp. the part about coming off the brakes, 'cuz if you just POP off the binders, not only will you spike outside the traction circle, you've prolly also slowed down a lot more than you needed to (otherwise, you'd time-consumingly slew coming off the brakes). Believe it. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <Dl8Rb.86270$[email hidden]>, "Steve Smith" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Absolutely, Dawg. My ECCI pedals were worth a second or two a lap almost > >anywhere in GPL, and the TSW pedals I use with my Logi MOMO wheel are > >likewise indispensible equipment. You can't *begin* to modulatethreshold > >braking with the flimsy, short-throw plastic pedals that come with most > >wheels. Also, most third-party/aftermarket wheels allow you to very the > >pedal pressure (ECCI had a pneumatic device that allowed you to adjustfor a

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> >*progressively* stiffer pedal), which is critical for dialing in the best > >*feel*. > > > >"MadDAWG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:4015187d$[email hidden]... > >> > I also don't think it's equipment. > >> > >> I have no idea what type of wheel/pedal setup you have, but I just

ditched > >> my red MOMO for a MSFF, and it made a world of differance. > > I don't think it's equipment either. But, I've never had the chance todrive > someone else's rig, and vice-versa. There may be something wrong in mysetup > that would slap someone else in the face because it's so obvious. Butwith

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> nothing else to compare it to... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Member > Screamers Racing League > IICC League > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress > N2k3 rank:in progress > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Move the BB forward a coupla clicks. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, "Byron John Forbes" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > Also, being able to brake whilst turning in is crucial as well. Thiswill > >make a huge difference to anyone not presently doing this. And, ofcourse, > >the deeper the better. > > For me, braking whilst turning usually results in me suddenly slidingbackwards

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> towards an immovable object. > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Member > Screamers Racing League > IICC League > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress > N2k3 rank:in progress > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Ken MacKay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Seems to me that the advice is "get line and exits right first, as theythe most > important, and THEN work on braking to get the last bit". > Well, I'd say they are the easiest - most definantly not the most important. If you stuff up the turn in then you have also stuffed up mid corner and all that can possibly be ok is exit. A good turn in is critical to any corner and usually sets the tone for a good all around (nice pun here) corner.

Just to be totally clear, when one does this one is depressing the brake pedal by the smallest amount possible. Gently scrubbing off speed is a better term to use than "braking". Every little bit helps to keep one out of the sand traps :) "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > For me, braking whilst turning usually results in me suddenly slidingbackwards > towards an immovable object. > > Eldred

Erm, sorry, not what Malc said, what MAXX said...doh! "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ZssRb.57339$[email hidden]... > What Malc said (above): REAL important, esp. the part about coming off the > brakes, 'cuz if you just POP off the binders, not only will you spike > outside the traction circle, you've prolly also slowed down a lot morethan

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> you needed to (otherwise, you'd time-consumingly slew coming off the > brakes). Believe it. > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <Dl8Rb.86270$[email hidden]>, "Steve Smith" > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > >Absolutely, Dawg. My ECCI pedals were worth a second or two a lap

almost > > >anywhere in GPL, and the TSW pedals I use with my Logi MOMO wheel are > > >likewise indispensible equipment. You can't *begin* to modulate > threshold > > >braking with the flimsy, short-throw plastic pedals that come with most > > >wheels. Also, most third-party/aftermarket wheels allow you to verythe > > >pedal pressure (ECCI had a pneumatic device that allowed you to adjust > for a > > >*progressively* stiffer pedal), which is critical for dialing in thebest

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> > >*feel*. > > > > > >"MadDAWG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > >news:4015187d$[email hidden]... > > >> > I also don't think it's equipment. > > >> > > >> I have no idea what type of wheel/pedal setup you have, but I just > ditched > > >> my red MOMO for a MSFF, and it made a world of differance. > > > > I don't think it's equipment either. But, I've never had the chance to > drive > > someone else's rig, and vice-versa. There may be something wrong in my > setup > > that would slap someone else in the face because it's so obvious. But > with > > nothing else to compare it to... > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > Member > > Screamers Racing League > > IICC League > > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > > ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > > Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress > > N2k3 rank:in progress > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > >

"Byron John Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Just to be totally clear, when one does this one is depressing thebrake > pedal by the smallest amount possible. Gently scrubbing off speed is a > better term to use than "braking". Every little bit helps to keep one outof

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> the sand traps :) > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > For me, braking whilst turning usually results in me suddenly sliding > backwards > > towards an immovable object. > > > > Eldred > >

While practicing I do what Byron has said and glide through the corners (nascar, watkins, infineon) and run some pretty decent laps. Then I race others and get busy with the mirror and *thinking* and end up doing what Eldred said :-( Sean

Haqsau wrote: ... > a few guys who could brake in a much shorter distance than the others The pedals are definitely important. My ECCI Trackstar 3000 made a huge difference. Achim

Thank you Maxx, that was one of the things I have been wondering about. Another question I have is if it is necessary to modulate the brake during downshifts, and if so, how? Sometimes when I am braking hard I get lockups when I shift, but I'm not sure if it is during the shift or after the clutch engages. "Maxx" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Just thought I'd chip in with something not mentioned yet (unless I > missed a post). It's VERY important to apply the brakes gradually. > What I mean is don't stamp on them to their full travel at the moment > you wish to brake. This essentially causes massive weight shift > forward, which is harder to "brake" against, hence you generally > have your "full travel" set at about 80% of potential braking force > to avoid lock up. By "set at" I mean you've either got the squash > ball, or other method of restricting travel OR your foot is just > educated at that level. > > If you press the brake at 10% for a split second, just to compress > the springs, then squeeze it to maximum, you will end up being > able to use more braking force than you could before for the > later part of the braking. > > This is not going to stop those folks flying by you under braking > as they are no doubt experts at gas+brake but it does work to > lower lap times,. even if you end up braking a fraction earlier > at first, until you get used to it. > > Coming off the brake properly is equally important, don't jump > off it at the moment of turn in, or you'll decrease your potential > cornering grip by at least 20%, you need to ease off it AS you > turn in (this isn't "specifically" trail-braking). > > Maxx > > PS. I know it's been a while since I posted here. I still read r.a.s. > regularly but rarely have the time to post. >

Maxx, Where can I get a good squash ball to use for the mod? I looked at the local mall and I couldn't find one. Thanks, Shock "Maxx" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Just thought I'd chip in with something not mentioned yet (unless I > missed a post). It's VERY important to apply the brakes gradually. > What I mean is don't stamp on them to their full travel at the moment > you wish to brake. This essentially causes massive weight shift > forward, which is harder to "brake" against, hence you generally > have your "full travel" set at about 80% of potential braking force > to avoid lock up. By "set at" I mean you've either got the squash > ball, or other method of restricting travel OR your foot is just > educated at that level. > > If you press the brake at 10% for a split second, just to compress > the springs, then squeeze it to maximum, you will end up being > able to use more braking force than you could before for the > later part of the braking. > > This is not going to stop those folks flying by you under braking > as they are no doubt experts at gas+brake but it does work to > lower lap times,. even if you end up braking a fraction earlier > at first, until you get used to it. > > Coming off the brake properly is equally important, don't jump > off it at the moment of turn in, or you'll decrease your potential > cornering grip by at least 20%, you need to ease off it AS you > turn in (this isn't "specifically" trail-braking). > > Maxx > > PS. I know it's been a while since I posted here. I still read r.a.s. > regularly but rarely have the time to post. >

> Well, I'd say they are the easiest - most definantly not the most important. > If you stuff up the turn in then you have also stuffed up mid corner and all > that can possibly be ok is exit. A good turn in is critical to any corner and > usually sets the tone for a good all around (nice pun here) corner. > If you miss the turn in you are NOT on the proper line, so yes you have messed up the turn. "The line" goes whole way around the track including the entry to the corners, where you apex, exit, and the sections in between. And if you don't think the line is important then try driving only using the inside half of the track sometime and see if it affects you laptimes. :-)

In the RW, it's advisable to ease up on the braking whilst downshifting, but that loses you ground vs. yer competitors, so....my advice is to modulate the brakes at the threshold of lockup all the way down and adjust the shift points to the highest speed that doesn't unsettle the car. That will add some engine braking (which seems preternaturally strong in N2003) without making the car squirrelly. "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Thank you Maxx, that was one of the things I have been wondering about. > Another question I have is if it is necessary to modulate the brake during > downshifts, and if so, how? Sometimes when I am braking hard I getlockups > when I shift, but I'm not sure if it is during the shift or after theclutch

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> engages. > > > "Maxx" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Just thought I'd chip in with something not mentioned yet (unless I > > missed a post). It's VERY important to apply the brakes gradually. > > What I mean is don't stamp on them to their full travel at the moment > > you wish to brake. This essentially causes massive weight shift > > forward, which is harder to "brake" against, hence you generally > > have your "full travel" set at about 80% of potential braking force > > to avoid lock up. By "set at" I mean you've either got the squash > > ball, or other method of restricting travel OR your foot is just > > educated at that level. > > > > If you press the brake at 10% for a split second, just to compress > > the springs, then squeeze it to maximum, you will end up being > > able to use more braking force than you could before for the > > later part of the braking. > > > > This is not going to stop those folks flying by you under braking > > as they are no doubt experts at gas+brake but it does work to > > lower lap times,. even if you end up braking a fraction earlier > > at first, until you get used to it. > > > > Coming off the brake properly is equally important, don't jump > > off it at the moment of turn in, or you'll decrease your potential > > cornering grip by at least 20%, you need to ease off it AS you > > turn in (this isn't "specifically" trail-braking). > > > > Maxx > > > > PS. I know it's been a while since I posted here. I still read r.a.s. > > regularly but rarely have the time to post. > > > >

You make a good point here Ken. The really fast guys seem to get a wider entry without washing up or spinning out which then gives them a later apex which lets em mash the gas sooner giving a great run off and great lap times. I was running some Norisring with Ginger and man o man he could take some of those turns wide and still have grip. When I got out there I was sliding all over which ends up slowing me down. I think trail braking is what Im missing although Ive been playing around with the technique Im still somewhat out of control. Part of my problem may be my current AL Perf pedals though. Mitch "Ken MacKay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Well, I'd say they are the easiest - most definantly not the mostimportant. > > If you stuff up the turn in then you have also stuffed up mid cornerand all > > that can possibly be ok is exit. A good turn in is critical to anycorner and > > usually sets the tone for a good all around (nice pun here) corner. > > > > > If you miss the turn in you are NOT on the proper line, so yes you havemessed > up the turn. "The line" goes whole way around the track including theentry to > the corners, where you apex, exit, and the sections in between. And if youdon't > think the line is important then try driving only using the inside half ofthe > track sometime and see if it affects you laptimes. :-) >

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:47:06 GMT, "Byron John Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Just to be totally clear, when one does this one is depressing the brake >pedal by the smallest amount possible. Gently scrubbing off speed is a >better term to use than "braking". Every little bit helps to keep one out of >the sand traps :) While I'm not the greatest trailbraker in the world, I usually think of it as slowly releasing the brake pedal as I turn in until I'm fully off the brakes just before I reach the corner apex. I can't do it consistently, but when I do get it right it's amazing how much better the car turns since you're keeping the weight on the front wheels. Of course, more often than not I don't trailbrake enough and miss the apex by 5 feet. Jason

I'll give Nosiring this. If you want to go out and play slidy-race-car, this is the place to do it :) -Larry "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:oYxRb.16768$[email hidden]... > You make a good point here Ken. The really fast guys seem to get a wider > entry without washing up or spinning out which then gives them a laterapex > which lets em mash the gas sooner giving a great run off and great lap > times. > > I was running some Norisring with Ginger and man o man he could take someof

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> those turns wide and still have grip. When I got out there I was sliding > all over which ends up slowing me down. I think trail braking is what Im > missing although Ive been playing around with the technique Im still > somewhat out of control. Part of my problem may be my current AL Perf > pedals though. > > Mitch > > "Ken MacKay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > Well, I'd say they are the easiest - most definantly not the most > important. > > > If you stuff up the turn in then you have also stuffed up mid corner > and all > > > that can possibly be ok is exit. A good turn in is critical to any > corner and > > > usually sets the tone for a good all around (nice pun here) corner. > > > > > > > > > If you miss the turn in you are NOT on the proper line, so yes you have > messed > > up the turn. "The line" goes whole way around the track including the > entry to > > the corners, where you apex, exit, and the sections in between. And if

you > don't > > think the line is important then try driving only using the inside halfof > the > > track sometime and see if it affects you laptimes. :-) > > > >

Steve Smith wrote: > In the RW, it's advisable to ease up on the braking whilst downshifting I do that in N2k3 as well (did it in GPL and in any other sim probably as well) to prevent the rear wheels from locking up momentarily and thus upset the car's balance. It does not seem to impede my braking performance. Achim

lol yeppers "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:n9yRb.1798$fZ6.1761@lakeread06... > I'll give Nosiring this. If you want to go out and play slidy-race-car, > this is the place to do it :) > > -Larry >

There is one other issue w. trail braking: tire heat (or overheating). On a mostly-lefts track like Nose Ring (or, worse, Badone), perfect trail braking will put more heat in the RF tire (you're nearer the NE edge of the traction circle than true magnetic north; i.e., you're leaning harder on the RF), which, as Achim and others have pointed out, seems to suffer from a bug in the N2003 executable, and tends to run hotter than the other tires no matter what. Thus, if the RF is getting into the yellow under straight-line braking, it will probably ease into the red under trail-braking. Discuss among yourselves. "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:47:06 GMT, "Byron John Forbes" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > Just to be totally clear, when one does this one is depressing thebrake > >pedal by the smallest amount possible. Gently scrubbing off speed is a > >better term to use than "braking". Every little bit helps to keep one outof

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> >the sand traps :) > > While I'm not the greatest trailbraker in the world, I usually think > of it as slowly releasing the brake pedal as I turn in until I'm fully > off the brakes just before I reach the corner apex. I can't do it > consistently, but when I do get it right it's amazing how much better > the car turns since you're keeping the weight on the front wheels. > > Of course, more often than not I don't trailbrake enough and miss the > apex by 5 feet. > > Jason

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <zdhRb.6339$[email hidden]>, "Mitch_A" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >I figure Ill just do it in stages as Ive always done. The new BRDSpeed7 > >wheel sounds mighty tasty too and I got a 40th knockin at my doorstep :) > > Eh, you're just a KID...<g> > (40 in 2003) > > Eldred Eh....what's that you say youngster? (52 in 2003) bluestringer

In article <QVBRb.60199$[email hidden]>, "bluestringer" <[email hidden]> writes: >Eh....what's that you say youngster? >(52 in 2003) No comment...<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Maxx <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Just thought I'd chip in with something not mentioned yet (unless I >missed a post). It's VERY important to apply the brakes gradually. >What I mean is don't stamp on them to their full travel at the moment >you wish to brake. This essentially causes massive weight shift >forward, which is harder to "brake" against, hence you generally >have your "full travel" set at about 80% of potential braking force >to avoid lock up. By "set at" I mean you've either got the squash >ball, or other method of restricting travel OR your foot is just >educated at that level. >

Maxx! Good to see you around! I currently don't have any way of restricting brake travel. A TSW2mod doesn't really(that I've seen) lend itself to a squash ball mod. Of course, I could just not understand how it's supposed to be set up. I've never seen a picture of how it should be... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <ZssRb.57339$[email hidden]>, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> writes: >What Malc said (above): REAL important, esp. the part about coming off the >brakes, 'cuz if you just POP off the binders, not only will you spike >outside the traction circle, you've prolly also slowed down a lot more than >you needed to (otherwise, you'd time-consumingly slew coming off the >brakes). Believe it. I don't understand - how does 'popping off the binders' slow you down more...? My common approach to a turn goes like this: Brake like hell in a straight line coming up to the turn to get slowed down to what I think is a safe speed Get off the brake/turn in (I honestly can't tell which I do first) After turn in, get back on the gas.(because I think I'm going too slow) Lift in mid turn(or coast) to make sure I'll make the turn(because I think I'm going too fast) After the car is on the next straight, apply gas again Yes, I know this is probably what's screwing me up...but I have been unable to change it. Even after I realized what I was doing(I don't remember exactly what made me aware of it), I don't know how to change... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote:

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> Get off the brake/turn in (I honestly can't tell which I do first) > After turn in, get back on the gas.(because I think I'm going too slow) > Lift in mid turn(or coast) to make sure I'll make the turn(because I think I'm > going too fast) > > Yes, I know this is probably what's screwing me up...but I have been unable to > change it. Even after I realized what I was doing(I don't remember exactly > what made me aware of it), I don't know how to change...

Eldred, I recognize some of this - what I learned after a while (besides using the gears/engine to slow down in a more stable fashion) is that I now do the "get back on the gas" part earlier and smoother. I brake a tiny bit less late, for the Glen's Ninety let's say, and then after getting off the brake I immediatly get on the gas again, but *only a bit* and then I hold it there, for the first part of the turn, just a quarter-second or so; and after the car's stabilized like this and I know I'm getting out of the turn, I really get the throttle down. So the 'getting back on the gas' after braking is probably good, but you could do it maybe a bit more timidly, just enough to hold the speed and stabilize the car; as above, it sounds like you're whacking on the throttle pedal a bit too hard in the first part. Just try and do the same but a bit less brutal - that way, at least you wouldn't have to back down in the middle of the turn, and can accelerate more smoothly. Hope it helps, Regards, Rudy (GPLRank -21)

The TSW2 doesn't need it. There's enuf pedal travel that you shouldn't need a tennis ball to tell you when enuf's enuf. You might raise the spring strength if yer having trouble. Or use the F10 view (GPL) or roof cam (N2003) and let the puff of white smoke tell you when yer locking up the brakes (hey, it works for the Vatican!). "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, Maxx > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Just thought I'd chip in with something not mentioned yet (unless I > >missed a post). It's VERY important to apply the brakes gradually. > >What I mean is don't stamp on them to their full travel at the moment > >you wish to brake. This essentially causes massive weight shift > >forward, which is harder to "brake" against, hence you generally > >have your "full travel" set at about 80% of potential braking force > >to avoid lock up. By "set at" I mean you've either got the squash > >ball, or other method of restricting travel OR your foot is just > >educated at that level. > > > > Maxx! Good to see you around! > I currently don't have any way of restricting brake travel. A TSW2mod

doesn't > really(that I've seen) lend itself to a squash ball mod. Of course, Icould > just not understand how it's supposed to be set up. I've never seen apicture

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> of how it should be... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Member > Screamers Racing League > IICC League > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress > N2k3 rank:in progress > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

If yer right on the limit of (longitudinal) adhesion when you jump OFF the brakes, the sudden rearward weight transfer will upset the car, maybe even enuf to lose the rear end. Thus, if yer in the habbit of jumping off the brakes, yer prolly compensating by being on the safe side of the limit of long. adhes., ergo yer not getting the most outta yer brakes. Q.E.D. Turning in before lifting (or braking) vs. the opposite is critical. The best place to demonstrate this is T3 at MIS. You need rather different setups for one vs. the other. Generalizing, if yer setup pushes, start turning in first (and v.v.). I know what you mean abt. being able to identify yer mistakes w/o being able to correct 'em. I used to tell the tennis pro what mistake I was about to make before his return shot even cleared the net...then go ahead and make the mistake exactly as promised. He quit in disgust. (So I became a race driver!) "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <ZssRb.57339$[email hidden]>, "Steve Smith" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >What Malc said (above): REAL important, esp. the part about coming offthe > >brakes, 'cuz if you just POP off the binders, not only will you spike > >outside the traction circle, you've prolly also slowed down a lot morethan > >you needed to (otherwise, you'd time-consumingly slew coming off the > >brakes). Believe it. > > I don't understand - how does 'popping off the binders' slow you downmore...? > > My common approach to a turn goes like this: > > Brake like hell in a straight line coming up to the turn to get sloweddown to > what I think is a safe speed > Get off the brake/turn in (I honestly can't tell which I do first) > After turn in, get back on the gas.(because I think I'm going too slow) > Lift in mid turn(or coast) to make sure I'll make the turn(because I thinkI'm > going too fast) > After the car is on the next straight, apply gas again > > Yes, I know this is probably what's screwing me up...but I have beenunable to > change it. Even after I realized what I was doing(I don't rememberexactly

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> what made me aware of it), I don't know how to change... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Member > Screamers Racing League > IICC League > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress > N2k3 rank:in progress > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>The TSW2 doesn't need it. There's enuf pedal travel that you shouldn't need >a tennis ball to tell you when enuf's enuf. You might raise the spring >strength if yer having trouble. How - is it adjustible? If I have to *replace* the spring, know any good suppliers? >Or use the F10 view (GPL) or roof cam >(N2003) and let the puff of white smoke tell you when yer locking up the >brakes (hey, it works for the Vatican!). Vatican? Ok, I don't understand that one... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>So the 'getting back on the gas' after braking is probably good, but you >could do it maybe a bit more timidly, just enough to hold the speed and >stabilize the car; as above, it sounds like you're whacking on the >throttle pedal a bit too hard in the first part. Just try and do the >same but a bit less brutal - that way, at least you wouldn't have to >back down in the middle of the turn, and can accelerate more smoothly. Since N2k3 shows pedal input(right?), maybe someone could see exactly what I'm doing if I posted a lap... I don't have N2k3 Replay analyzer, because there was a cost for it. I hadn't justified spending the money, since I'm not in any NASCAR leagues anymore... Besides, having GPLRA for the past 3 years didn't exactly let me improve by leaps and bounds. It's one thing to see what someone else is doing - it's an entirely different thing to be able to do it yourself. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>If yer right on the limit of (longitudinal) adhesion when you jump OFF the >brakes, the sudden rearward weight transfer will upset the car, maybe even >enuf to lose the rear end. Thus, if yer in the habbit of jumping off the >brakes, yer prolly compensating by being on the safe side of the limit of >long. adhes., ergo yer not getting the most outta yer brakes. Q.E.D. Maxx gave me a braking drill to do at Silverstone a while ago. Basically just braking for the turn, but not hitting the gas again until track out, IIRC. Maybe I need to revisit that... I never got the hang of it. The problem I think I ran into was that I could never figure out exactly how much braking would get me through the turn safely. It always seemed like I'd fall off the outside. >Turning in before lifting (or braking) vs. the opposite is critical. The >best place to demonstrate this is T3 at MIS. You need rather different >setups for one vs. the other. Generalizing, if yer setup pushes, start >turning in first (and v.v.). v.v.? -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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>>(N2003) and let the puff of white smoke tell you when yer locking >>up the brakes (hey, it works for the Vatican!). > > Vatican? Ok, I don't understand that one... > > Eldred >

The Vatican uses different colours of smoke to annouce to the world which candidate was elected as the new Pope. They may use smoke signals on other occasions as well -- not that versed (pun intended) on Roman Catholicism, And "v.v." means vice versa (from other message). We've got to get you out more Eldred. <VBG> -- Darryl

Any auto repair shop usually has a cornucopia of springs, some of which will fit. Or just add some rubber bands. [When the Vatican elects a new Pope, they signal the world waiting outside with a puff of white smoke.] "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >The TSW2 doesn't need it. There's enuf pedal travel that you shouldn'tneed

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> >a tennis ball to tell you when enuf's enuf. You might raise the spring > >strength if yer having trouble. > > How - is it adjustible? If I have to *replace* the spring, know any good > suppliers? > > >Or use the F10 view (GPL) or roof cam > >(N2003) and let the puff of white smoke tell you when yer locking up the > >brakes (hey, it works for the Vatican!). > > Vatican? Ok, I don't understand that one... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Member > Screamers Racing League > IICC League > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress > N2k3 rank:in progress > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

[v.v. = vice versa] "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >If yer right on the limit of (longitudinal) adhesion when you jump OFFthe > >brakes, the sudden rearward weight transfer will upset the car, maybeeven > >enuf to lose the rear end. Thus, if yer in the habbit of jumping off the > >brakes, yer prolly compensating by being on the safe side of the limit of > >long. adhes., ergo yer not getting the most outta yer brakes. Q.E.D. > > Maxx gave me a braking drill to do at Silverstone a while ago. Basicallyjust > braking for the turn, but not hitting the gas again until track out, IIRC. > Maybe I need to revisit that... I never got the hang of it. > The problem I think I ran into was that I could never figure out exactlyhow > much braking would get me through the turn safely. It always seemed likeI'd

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> fall off the outside. > > >Turning in before lifting (or braking) vs. the opposite is critical. The > >best place to demonstrate this is T3 at MIS. You need rather different > >setups for one vs. the other. Generalizing, if yer setup pushes, start > >turning in first (and v.v.). > > v.v.? > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Member > Screamers Racing League > IICC League > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress > N2k3 rank:in progress > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 21:03:05 GMT, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>There is one other issue w. trail braking: tire heat (or overheating). On a >mostly-lefts track like Nose Ring (or, worse, Badone), perfect trail braking >will put more heat in the RF tire (you're nearer the NE edge of the traction >circle than true magnetic north; i.e., you're leaning harder on the RF), >which, as Achim and others have pointed out, seems to suffer from a bug in >the N2003 executable, and tends to run hotter than the other tires no matter >what. Thus, if the RF is getting into the yellow under straight-line >braking, it will probably ease into the red under trail-braking. Discuss >among yourselves.

"Adjust the stagger and crossweight" =) Jason

On 28 Jan 2004 18:02:11 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >v.v.? Vice versa. Jason

Fair enuf, but no matter what adjustments you make, trail braking will still put more heat into the outside tires, particularly the outside front. "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 21:03:05 GMT, "Steve Smith" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >There is one other issue w. trail braking: tire heat (or overheating).On a > >mostly-lefts track like Nose Ring (or, worse, Badone), perfect trailbraking > >will put more heat in the RF tire (you're nearer the NE edge of thetraction > >circle than true magnetic north; i.e., you're leaning harder on the RF), > >which, as Achim and others have pointed out, seems to suffer from a bugin > >the N2003 executable, and tends to run hotter than the other tires nomatter

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> >what. Thus, if the RF is getting into the yellow under straight-line > >braking, it will probably ease into the red under trail-braking. Discuss > >among yourselves. > > "Adjust the stagger and crossweight" =) > > Jason

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:47:06 GMT, "Byron John Forbes" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > Just to be totally clear, when one does this one is depressing thebrake > >pedal by the smallest amount possible. Gently scrubbing off speed is a > >better term to use than "braking". Every little bit helps to keep one outof

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> >the sand traps :) > > While I'm not the greatest trailbraker in the world, I usually think > of it as slowly releasing the brake pedal as I turn in until I'm fully > off the brakes just before I reach the corner apex. I can't do it > consistently, but when I do get it right it's amazing how much better > the car turns since you're keeping the weight on the front wheels. >

Yep, that's it exactly. What I said previously was actually for the situation where one is almost out of control but can still probably get away with a fraction of braking. Coming into parabolica a bit hot is probably a good example.

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:55:12 GMT, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Fair enuf, but no matter what adjustments you make, trail braking will still >put more heat into the outside tires, particularly the outside front. "Use harder compounds for the front tires" Damn I wish we had a new champcar sim. Jason

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:16:34 GMT, "Byron John Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Yep, that's it exactly. What I said previously was actually for the >situation where one is almost out of control but can still probably get away >with a fraction of braking. Coming into parabolica a bit hot is probably a >good example. Parabolica is a great place to practice trailbraking. If you ease off too soon you'll end up in the sand, if you don't ease off enough you'll end up in the sand, if you get it right you just nicely drift through the corner almost to the exact point where the kerb starts on the right and you can apply full throttle. Jason

I think the single discovery that earned me the most time in the post GPL era of sims from Papy was when I stopped turning in on a trailing throttle, I brake late and hard and downshift as fast as possible, but I try to get back on the throttle before I turn in, makes a world of difference to the stability of the car, I don't trailbrake unless I've braked too late :-D Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

You guys BRAKE for the 'bolica? What's next - feathering the throttle thru Eau Rouge or backing off for the Masta kink, I suppose.... "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:16:34 GMT, "Byron John Forbes" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > Yep, that's it exactly. What I said previously was actually for the > >situation where one is almost out of control but can still probably getaway > >with a fraction of braking. Coming into parabolica a bit hot is probablya

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> >good example. > > Parabolica is a great place to practice trailbraking. If you ease off > too soon you'll end up in the sand, if you don't ease off enough > you'll end up in the sand, if you get it right you just nicely drift > through the corner almost to the exact point where the kerb starts on > the right and you can apply full throttle. > > Jason

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (jason moyer) writes: >On 28 Jan 2004 18:02:11 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > >>v.v.? > >Vice versa. > Oh, DUH! I can't believe I didn't get that one. I think I'm losing it... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <XVSRb.31185$[email hidden]>, Darryl Johnson <[email hidden]> writes: >And "v.v." means vice versa (from other message). > >We've got to get you out more Eldred. <VBG> Too much on my mind, I guess... :-( Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <k6TRb.6297$[email hidden]>, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> writes: >Any auto repair shop usually has a cornucopia of springs, some of which will >fit. Or just add some rubber bands. Hmm...I'll check that out. >[When the Vatican elects a new Pope, they signal the world waiting outside >with a puff of white smoke.] Wow - you learn something new every day...<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> writes: >I think the single discovery that earned me the most time in the post >GPL era of sims from Papy was when I stopped turning in on a trailing >throttle, I brake late and hard and downshift as fast as possible, but I >try to get back on the throttle before I turn in, makes a world of >difference to the stability of the car, I don't trailbrake unless I've >braked too late :-D That sounds like what I described earlier, except it actually WORKS for you... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

moyer) writes: >>v.v.? >Vice versa. Oh, DUH! I can't believe I didn't get that one. I think I'm losing it... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Steve Smith wrote: > You guys BRAKE for the 'bolica? What's next - feathering the throttle thru > Eau Rouge or backing off for the Masta kink, I suppose.... Hmmm - now we're actually talking to the smoldering remains of S. Smith, I presume? (Personally, I just can't help my survival instinct kickin' in!) Regards, Rudy (GPLRank -21)

He-he! "Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bva6sq$6r4$[email hidden]... > Steve Smith wrote: > > > You guys BRAKE for the 'bolica? What's next - feathering the throttlethru

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> > Eau Rouge or backing off for the Masta kink, I suppose.... > > > Hmmm - now we're actually talking to the smoldering remains of S. Smith, > I presume? > > (Personally, I just can't help my survival instinct kickin' in!) > > Regards, Rudy > (GPLRank -21) >

>You guys BRAKE for the 'bolica? What's next - feathering the throttle thru >Eau Rouge or backing off for the Masta kink, I suppose.... Hell, I *brake* for Eau Rouge...and even Stavelot. Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 55 assassin Slayer Hendryx lvl 30 barbarian US East

EldredP wrote: > > That sounds like what I described earlier, except it actually WORKS for you... Yes it does, I'd say that when I turn in my throttle is neutral to slightly leading (as opposed to trailing ? :-), turning in on a trailing throttle usually allows me to get an excellent view of where I've just been on the track....took me a while to actually realize that it was this I was doing though Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

On 28 Jan 2004 03:43:42 GMT, EldredP wrote: > Maxx! Good to see you around! > I currently don't have any way of restricting brake travel. A TSW2mod doesn't > really(that I've seen) lend itself to a squash ball mod. Of course, I could > just not understand how it's supposed to be set up. I've never seen a picture > of how it should be... Hi Eldred, I can mail you some digital images of "my" squash ball version if it helps. -- mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

In article <[email hidden]>, Uwe =?iso-8859-15?Q?Sch=FCrkamp?= <[email hidden]> writes:

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>On 28 Jan 2004 03:43:42 GMT, EldredP wrote: > >> Maxx! Good to see you around! >> I currently don't have any way of restricting brake travel. A TSW2mod >doesn't >> really(that I've seen) lend itself to a squash ball mod. Of course, I >could >> just not understand how it's supposed to be set up. I've never seen a >picture >> of how it should be... > >Hi Eldred, > >I can mail you some digital images of "my" squash ball version if it >helps.

Yes, please. It couldn't HURT... Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 55 assassin Slayer Hendryx lvl 30 barbarian US East