MGPRS2 - The BEST F1 sim, no doubt about it!

Okay, I did it, I couldn't resist, but oooooh !wow! Are UbiSoft gods!? This driving model is fantastic, and the grapics are quite stunning! This an unbelievebly great racing sim and deserves better treatment, in fact, UbiSoft deserve better treatment from alot of people here!! I suppose alot of you guys are going to disagree with me, but I guess you'll be American, so it doesn't matter :o) Hmmm, how many F1 world champions were American? Hmm, one? Hmmm, and wasn't he in the most ***, or at least "revolutionary" F1 car ever? Lotus, Rob - God Bless America! :o)

Why do you have to disrespect Americans? Sure, there are probably a lot of Americans that don't like this sim, but there are plenty that do like it, including myself. It just depends on how they feel, not where they live.

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>Okay, I did it, I couldn't resist, but oooooh !wow! Are UbiSoft gods!? This >driving model is fantastic, and the grapics are quite stunning! This an >unbelievebly great racing sim and deserves better treatment, in fact, UbiSoft >deserve better treatment from alot of people here!! >I suppose alot of you guys are going to disagree with me, but I guess you'll be >American, so it doesn't matter :o)

Yeah, well *** you too. Hmm, two? Phil Hill (1961) and Mario Andretti (1978). Get your facts straight before you start shooting your mouth off.

SwindellsR wrote Just a bunch of programmers and gamers. About none of them have racing experience. That including the playtester group. I can't see how they can resolve simulator problems when they have no idea on how a race car reacts on a track. Quite the opposite of Papyrus. Canned driving physics. No banking. No camber. No bumps. Only canned XYZ bumps at XYZ point of the track. Flashy graphics. Track innacuracies. Quite the opposite of Papyrus Not when you started to race GPL. Thus being a Papyrus simulator. Im not American. Let's hope the Y2K problem is really real so they don't come with another crappy F1 product. I think the Playmobil games are a more suitable for the Montreal Ubisoft division (oh wow that's a BIG slap in their face, but I got my personnal opinions here.. knowning some of the employees). Quite the opposite of Papyrus. Im also awaiting for the canned reply by some people I won't name ;-) . Everything is canned it seems LMAO ! ;-D P.S.: that was pretty straight forward, but just plain the truth.. not flaming you but flaming Ubi. - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

I agree with you 100%, Monaco is the best F1 racing (game), in my opinion. I've played GPL, it's to hard core for my taste, great sim though. By the way, I am an American.

erican, so it doesn't matter :o) Okay, I'm going over to London tomorrow. What's your address so I can come over and punch you in the nose. And, ummm, could you recommend a computer store afterwards so I can purchase Toca2 for my PSX? Dave

>>Hmmm, how many F1 world champions were American? Hmm, one? Hmmm, and wasn't he >>in the most ***, or at least "revolutionary" F1 car ever? >Hmm, two? Phil Hill (1961) and Mario Andretti (1978). Get your facts >straight before you start shooting your mouth off. Which btw, is two more than the number of reliable cars that have come out of England.

As soon as MGPRS2 is at an appropriate price for a couple of extra tracks they may well get it. Scottish. No, that would be your countryman Mr. Mansell you're thinking of. Cheers! John

>>>Hmmm, how many F1 world champions were American? Hmm, one? Hmmm, and wasn't he >>>in the most ***, or at least "revolutionary" F1 car ever? >>Hmm, two? Phil Hill (1961) and Mario Andretti (1978). Get your facts >>straight before you start shooting your mouth off. >Which btw, is two more than the number of reliable cars that have come out of >England. Good ol` Mini Cooper and Range Rover, thank god very much

Maybe (I certainly won't argue about being civil to manufacturer's reps who take the trouble to be here). But have you tried GPL yet? It's a whole 'nother story... (Heck, it's a whole 'nother *book*, for that matter. :) And the relevance of this is?... Ever hear of Phil Hill? But ignorance is bliss, right? But using big words like "best" and "only" ("one" implies "only", right?) requires the command of a bit more knowledge. Study GPL and report back to us, Grasshopper. :) PS - and good luck with your real racing "studies". "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

Many drivers won the world championship due to having the bast equipment. Niki Lauda admitted his championship in 1975 was due to the Ferrari being the absolute best car out there. Also Williams put drivers in championships due to having the best car out there. This is not new to Formula One. also Andretti was rated as past his prime when he did win a Formula One championship. I laugh everytime here that Andretti only won his championship due Colin giving him a good car. In fact Andretti ran several events in the older Lotus chassis, at the beginning of the year due to the Lotus 78 not being ready for races yet. Also as already stated Phil Hill won a world championship for Ferrari. I personally think two world champions in a series dominated by Europeans is pretty good. Espically considering that during this time American racing series were going strong and in a very differnet direction compared to European racing. Infact I am sure that many older Formula One drivers could never handle a USAC Championship Sprint car anywhere close to Andretti, during his prime. Dave

What's all this Hmmm business, can't you think of any words - and how long have you been xenophobic? Get well soon.

>SwindellsR wrote >>Okay, I did it, I couldn't resist, but oooooh !wow! Are UbiSoft gods!? >Just a bunch of programmers and gamers. About none of them have racing >experience. That including the playtester group. I can't see how they can >resolve simulator problems when they have no idea on how a race car reacts >on a track. Quite the opposite of Papyrus. Yes, Papyrus has Schumacher and Hill on their staff and their playtesters are also star race car drivers. I think Ubi only had some dudes from Renault working with them. I think some of you MUST be close to getting your N3 beta tester invites. Many of you have worked hard here at r.a.s., been very loyal, and certainly deserve it with all of the cheerleading.......uh, support you give to Papyrus. I bet they ask me too, huh ymenard? :-) David G Fisher

Lets see, was he in a Chapparal?? Shelby Cobra? Gurney Eagle? And as far as American world champions...Think back to the 70's in Motocross(I know off topic) Americans were nowhere. Then Pomeroy and Lackey opened the floodgates...How many Motocross des Nations did we win in a row??? We lost the Trans USA every year til the late 70's. Then it got so bad with 'Merican sweeps the series collapsed. So yeah, the USA hasn't dominated in F1.....yet....just wait til those IRL drivers learn to turn right....:) dave henrie

F1RS sold 1.1 million copies but I don't think many of them were sold in the U.S. Nascar is what is popular here although of no interest to me. Many here are Nascar fans = N2 fans = Papyrus fans = GPL fans. They also are a very "loyal" group. And quite loud. Actually, F1RS was the ultimate of all sims on this newsgroup not so many months ago when the loyalist didn't have something new to talk about. R.a.s. is mostly the same 200 people, with about 30 who post daily. Like I said, a sim like F1RS sold 1.1 million copies, and N2 sold half a million (I think), yet the number of people who post here is tiny so r.a.s. is really only representative of itself and nothing more. That developers ignore it like the plague tells you all you need to know. David G Fisher

> Okay, I did it, I couldn't resist, but oooooh !wow! Are UbiSoft gods!? This Ouch, you're going to create a fan club now? It's amazing, how people can either not see ANY improvements at all or think it's the mother of all sims. Is there some religious cult involved...? ;^) l8er ronny -- Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

I'm afraid there is a lot more to MGPRS than 'an extra couple of tracks' John! It is a massive improvement on F1RS. I presume you have not spent much time on MGPRS, or maybe you have only played the demo. Try it, you won't be disappointed. Iain >>Okay, I did it, I couldn't resist, but oooooh !wow! Are UbiSoft gods!? This >>driving model is fantastic, and the grapics are quite stunning! This an >>unbelievebly great racing sim and deserves better treatment, in fact, UbiSoft >>deserve better treatment from alot of people here!! >As soon as MGPRS2 is at an appropriate price for a couple of extra >tracks they may well get it. >>I suppose alot of you guys are going to disagree with me, but I guess you'll be >>American, so it doesn't matter :o) >Scottish. >>Hmmm, how many F1 world champions were American? Hmm, one? Hmmm, and wasn't he >>in the most ***, or at least "revolutionary" F1 car ever? >No, that would be your countryman Mr. Mansell you're thinking of. >Cheers! >John

Why don't we stop all this MGPRS vs GPL stuff. I have played both of them for some months now, and they BOTH have their good points. Neither one is better, they represent very different types of racing, and are both very successful at doing it. Iain >>Okay, I did it, I couldn't resist, but oooooh !wow! Are UbiSoft gods!? This >>driving model is fantastic, and the grapics are quite stunning! This an >>unbelievebly great racing sim and deserves better treatment, in fact, UbiSoft

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>>deserve better treatment from alot of people here!! > Maybe (I certainly won't argue about being civil to manufacturer's >reps who take the trouble to be here). > But have you tried GPL yet? It's a whole 'nother story... (Heck, >it's a whole 'nother *book*, for that matter. :) >>I suppose alot of you guys are going to disagree with me, but I guess

you'll be >>American, so it doesn't matter :o) > And the relevance of this is?... >>Hmmm, how many F1 world champions were American? Hmm, one? Hmmm, and wasn't he

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>>in the most ***, or at least "revolutionary" F1 car ever? >>Lotus, > Ever hear of Phil Hill? > But ignorance is bliss, right? But using big words like "best" and >"only" ("one" implies "only", right?) requires the command of a bit >more knowledge. Study GPL and report back to us, Grasshopper. :) >PS - and good luck with your real racing "studies". >"But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was >nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into >a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 07:41:41 -0000, "Iain Mackenzie" >I'm afraid there is a lot more to MGPRS than 'an extra couple of tracks' >John! It is a massive improvement on F1RS. I presume you have not spent much >time on MGPRS, or maybe you have only played the demo. I tried the demo and was massively disappointed. I then let a friend convince me of the same thing you described above, so I bought the full game and tried that. Unfortunately I was. I was disappointed enough having paid BT for the pleasure of downloading it, and massively more so having paid 30 for basically what I already had - and I need to put correct cars and drivers by myself. No thanks. Cheers! John

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 04:04:31 -0500, "David G Fisher" >R.a.s. is mostly the same 200 people, with about 30 who post daily. Like I >said, a sim like F1RS sold 1.1 million copies, and N2 sold half a million (I >think), yet the number of people who post here is tiny so r.a.s. is really >only representative of itself and nothing more. Psygnosis Formula One outsold both of them by a long way - that tells you more about the pulling power of F1 than the relative merits of each product. Cheers! John

> That developers ignore it like the plague > tells you all you need to know. What are you talking about? I've recently seen posts from Ubisoft, Papyrus, Microsoft (at least an employee of MS), and from the guy working on the Trans Am sim. There have also been posts from many different makers of PC steering wheels. Additionally, one of the leading technical guys in all of sim development has participated in in-depth discussions on vehicle physics. R.A.S. is hardly a plague, though there are a few bacteria floating around. -- Pat Dotson

David G Fisher wrote They "used" telemetry.. that's the somehow "almost" false adverti***t from saying "Developed with Renault Sports". That means they used some of the telemetry and also had some sound test with this group. Nothing more. Of course you probably think you know more than me. Ever went to the Ubisoft HQ in Montreal ? Talked with employees, saw early builds, checked out some tech stuff they had ? No heh ? well don't say your right on points you don't know. The Papyrus crew has alot of real racecar driver in their group of employees, including Beta testers AND current employees. Don't tell me Im wrong. because Im not. About all of them also go take a racing school weekend, compared to the 2 guys at Ubi. That's _two_. Ever heard of somebody called David Kaemmer ? <vbg> Cmon David, you know NOTHING about Ubisoft, and your trying to say your right ? You know NOTHING also about Papyrus, and your trying to say Im wrong. Please... They won't never ask me. NEVER... Because, well I can't comment on this. The only way I would have a N3 build under my house is if TEN ever has the job to port it on the NROS, since Im a NROS beta tester and NROS Official/Guide. - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

>What are you talking about? I've recently >seen posts from Ubisoft, Papyrus, Microsoft (at >least an employee of MS), and from the guy working >on the Trans Am sim. . You are kidding I hope. MS? A Ubi Soft tech kindly took some of his time to answer some technical questions but we both know that does not exactly indicate a desire by Ubi Soft to tap r.a.s. for feedback. Trans Am sim? How many posts did he make? Leading technical expert in all of sims? Says who? Finding a particular snowflake in a blizzard is easier than finding a sim developer on r.a.s. who wants feedback on a sim in developement. Awww, Pat. That hurt. Especially at Christmas time. David G Fisher

David G Fisher Im sure your memory can easily remember 1year ago exactly. All the fake hype, false stuff, 3dfx patch ***, etc.. ? It was all mostly true. (That's just ppl from C:PR, as below you will find info about the MTM2 group). Yes the US Ubi tech guy was very good, even if brief. But that's all. Nadda. I agree. He posted about a dozen times (can't remember his name sorry). Oh and let's not forget Steven Travers, Adam Levesque, Charlie Heath, David Matson, Eric Busch, and ALL the other ex-employees, people I forgot or beta testers. All helping us here. And us helping them. So you don't consider any Papyrus employee as a sim developer ? Oh and you probably forgot that at least 2 guys from the TRI group had some discussions via email about Monster Truck Madness2. They were really great to talk to whom, and that made me buy their software. Especially after one of them told me 1) How far they went into the physics of it 2) That r.a.s. is a great place to find what the hard-core simracers want. Cmon David, Im full of facts, you know this. It's always fun and pleasant to argument with you ;-) . And I didn't even check out Dejanews ! - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide <NAS-Frank> http://www.nros.com/ - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

>The Papyrus crew has alot of real racecar driver in their group of >employees, including Beta testers AND current employees. Don't tell me Im >wrong. because Im not. About all of them also go take a racing school >weekend, compared to the 2 guys at Ubi. That's _two_. Ever heard of >somebody called David Kaemmer ? <vbg> LOL. Anyone who can write a check can go to a race school. Sorry if this offends anyone, but I could care less what amateur drivers have to say with regards to F1 or CART. I'm only interested in the opinions of the VERY BEST. The one's who actually drive those cars. The opinions of someone who drives Formula Ford's mean as much to me as a high school football player trying to tell me what it's like to play in the NFL. They do not know what it's like to drive a CART, F1, or '67 F1 any more than I do. Which one of Papyrus's staff spent a couple hundred hours behind the wheel of a '67 F1 car? None? What real life '67 F1 race car driver worked with them on GPL? None? What season was Dave Kaemmer a F1 driver? '67? 70's, 80's, or 90's? None? You CANNOT hope to accurately simulate anything without the feedback of the drivers who ACTUALLY drive those cars. Absolutely impossible. I do believe that Ubi Soft had 3-4 F1 drivers try their sim before it was released and they thought that Ubi Soft did a very good job at simulating the feel of driving a F1 car. Someone else will have to provide you with the names but Verstoppen was one. Papyrus had no '67 F1 drivers try GPL? Why didn't they have one working with them at length when trying to simulate cars from 30 years ago? If I ever own a sim company and make an F1 sim, there is NO WAY I would EVER let it be released without the input of an actual real life driver of the car testing and providing feeback. The only sim I will ever be satisfied with is one that makes a real driver say, "Wow, this is fantastic. I can use this for training." ONLY an F1 driver can tell me what it feels like to drive an F1 car. No one here at r.a.s. or Papyrus can. Real life F1 (CART, whatever) drivers are not yet too impressed by sims. If they aren't, then sims still have a LOOONG way to go and this ridiculous debating that goes on here at r.a.s. about which sim is "the best" is ridiculous. It's also embaressing because I have no doubt the real drivers would look at us like a bunch of geeks if they read what so many of us write on this newsgroup. I've said 1,000 times I like GPL but sit back and watch yourself while racing it. Watch a friend. The delicateness required is ridiculous and is in NO WAY realistic. No shoes so we can massage the pedals with our toes, and a feather touch on the wheel while turning at 180 mph. Turns are made while the wheel moves a whole inch and a half. Ever watch a real F1 driver yank the wheel while racing? Pop in a tape of '67 F1 drivers and see how they work the wheel. Nothing at all delicate about it. People (at Papyrus including Kaemmer) even use joysticks. Sorry, but an 80 year old grandpa drives his Cadillac on a Sunday with 10 times more gusto than I need to with GPL. I know that neither company has any reason to think they are more qualified than the other without splitting hairs. They are not real life F1 drivers (past or present). They do not have real life F1 drivers working with them. They do not have a '67 or '98 F1 car at their headquarters which they drive at Monza daily. David G Fisher

David G Fisher wrote Errrr, David was a racecar driver Im about sure, but still, better at least go to a school than not going to like per example the Ubi team. Maybe we should make a money collect and pay you a trip to Jim Russel. You would finally understand how a car really reacts on a race track. I mean let's see... - People who have drove a racecar here and tried every sim on the market tell that GPL is the most realistic and very close to the real thing. - People who haven't drover a racecar (per example, you) say that it's unrealistic and still praise for such ***as C:PR. I see a pattern up here. But.. but.. but.. as you say "Nobody has drove a F1 here". Bullsh*t. Racing is racing. Any experimented race car driver knows what is the feeling behind the car, whatever type of racing he does. Let's take per example somebody who does Sport Biking. Will you go to him and say "You got no idea how a Touring bike can be drove on a track". It's as simple as that. I've seen F1 driver to say that F1RS is realistic. I've seen F1 drivers say that F1'97 is realistic. I've seen F1 drivers say that Gp2 is realistic. You even have Jonny Herbert saying his game is realistic. But when you ask people with racing experience who tested all those titles AND Gpl, they can easily see that it's superior and by far. Im talking about F1600 drivers, some people here with racing experience, Australian Touring drivers, etc... Even some Vintage car driver told it's superior !!!! What do you want more ???? Sir Jack Brabham. This is irrelevant. Driving a race car, any type is it, requires the same skill but differently adapted. A Touring driver will know how a Nascar can act. A Rallye driver will know how a IndyCar reacts on a track. It's plain basic racing technique and skills. I never knew if you did some racing in your real-life ? Did you ? Not with mathematics my dear. Of course, nobody in the Ubisoft has NEVER drove a racecar except 2guys. Compared to most of the crew at Papy. And the same goes for C:PR. What developer was a past CART driver ? heh the ball goes back to you David. False. Forgot Sir Jack Brabham ? Oh and Papyrus shipped a version of GPL to all the drivers and families of 1967 (that's what Mike Lescault told me). They did. Oh well you haven't talked with Mr. Carpentier my dear. I chatted with him for at least 30mins about his relations with racing simulators, and he clearly said he used them to stay in shape mentally and that Icr2 was seriously representative of how a CART car reacts except that there is no brake locking or wheel spin. But he understand it's a 3year old title. Because every hard-core simracer and race-car driver here will tell you which one it is. Some of us are directly or indirectly race car drivers, or acts as helper on a team, mechanic, etc.. Errrr, we're become back to the "edge of your pants" thingy. That's not the point here. We all know it's lacking. But what do you want to do ? Go ahead an pay yourself a real racecar. But until then sit down in front of your monitor and shut up ;) And if Race car drivers in real-life could use a Joystick like in military aircrafts, who said it wouldn't be the best choice ? And about the wheel locking, if you want you can buy a replica of a GPL wheel. It's bigger in diameter, thus the turns are longer to make in circonference. That's plain Geometry. Oh and calibrate your wheel so that 30degree on your wheel = 30 degrees on screen. Bad point another time. I can agree on this point. So for you, anything is bad until Damon Hill decides to program his own simulator. Yeah right. - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide <NAS-Frank> http://www.nros.com/ - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

For one read Jackie Stewart's Book on driving. He was one of the few drivers who was very addimant about being gentle with the car, making sure you were not on the bump stops before entering a corner and being smooth. He also has shown many F1 drivers how to be fast without jerking on the steering wheel, and being smooth on the throttle and brakes in application, to keep a high powered car settled. Many of Stewart's discussions on driving apply to my racing, so don't go on aobut howyou have to beat on a car to go fast, I am very typically faster by being smooth and keeping car hooked up then gross wheel, throttle and brake movements. Also to use Niki Lauda's phrase on driving modern Formula One cars into corners, esp ground effect cars was lift, hit the brakes turn it, and hang on, if you screwed up hope that it doesn't hurt to much. Dave

> And, ummm, could you recommend a computer store afterwards so I can purchase > Toca2 for my PSX? In your in Oxford Street (Central London) try Electronics Boutique, *** Games, Dixons or HMV or a whole load of others - it's a big seller right now, but I'd be inclined to wait for the PC version if I were you. Also I hate seeing petty nationalism like this - I feel embarassed that a fellow countryman is prepared to slag off another's country. Please feel welcome in London (my home town) and have a good time, Paul

> Why don't we stop all this MGPRS vs GPL stuff. I have played both of them > for some months now, and they BOTH have their good points. Neither one is > better, they represent very different types of racing, and are both very > successful at doing it. Absolutely! Do I hate this rival camp business or what? Like you, I have them both and like them both. Paul

And Codemasters, MGI, Electronic Arts and some others, not to mention wheel manufacturers. We may not be be a large slice of the market, but we are a significant one. We are prepared to beta-test for the developers, give feedback, suggest ideas and to provide market research for them. They listen to all this and our views are reflected in each new generation of sims. We exist because sims exist and because we like them. That makes us a good target group for game developers. They could select 1000 people from the street and ask them about ideas for a driving sim and only 1 or 2 people would know jack-s**t about them. Or they could ask us and we all have experience of sims (I may be forced to recant this statement :-) ). I know of several r.a.s. people who have been offered jobs by sim developers and r.a.s. is often the contact point (including myself - for my programming skills, I hasten to add). The only thing that remains is to educate the computer games press. Isn't is ironic that so many informed, educated and eloquent people post on r.a.s., but that the computer games press is populated by near-illiterate, ill-informed and incompetant idiots. I read a review of TOCA2 for PSX in a game rag the other day and realised why the big selling driving games are all arcade ones. I couldn't understand why Johnny Herbert Grand Prix was out-selling MGP in the UK until I read this rag. Paul

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> > That developers ignore it like the plague > > tells you all you need to know. > What are you talking about? I've recently > seen posts from Ubisoft, Papyrus, Microsoft (at > least an employee of MS), and from the guy working > on the Trans Am sim. There have also been posts > from many different makers of PC steering wheels. > Additionally, one of the leading technical > guys in all of sim development has participated > in in-depth discussions on vehicle physics. > R.A.S. is hardly a plague, though there are > a few bacteria floating around. > -- > Pat Dotson

David, physics are physics. The laws of physics are not changed because you get into a more powerful car. And the sense of what a car feels like when it's changing pitch, sliding, etc is all carried right up through the top series. I interviewed Christian Fittipaldi at Laguna Seca this September and was struck by how little regard he had for racing sims of ANY quality. His claim was that you feel the car in the small of your back, and until they simulate that, a race car simulation won't do anything for him. Consider, in addition, to this, that many notorious racing drivers have participated in the design of what turned out to be horrible racing games. How about EA's Andretti racing? Where the Andretti's, mostly Jeff, actually did a LOT of feedback on the game and praised its realism? Psygnosis' F1 was playtested by several F1 drivers. How does that make it compare to UbiSoft's work? On a par? Please. In talking with Christian and his agent, it was also stated to me that many of the drivers who do play with racing games want it to be super-realistic. I don't mean Super as in "Very" but as in "Extra" -- that is, speeds FASTER than reality, with all kinds of unrealistic stuff in it to make it FUN. Hey, these guys race for a living, and they aren't getting the sensation of speed from sims they get in real life (common sense would help you reach this conclusion). I even asked Christian about the value of using a sim to LEARN a track, and his comment was "a sim is one thing, but it's totally different to get on the course and FEEL it". And finally, how about Mark Blundell and Mauricio Gugelmin endorsing the physics of CART Precision Racing as "perfect", only to see Microsoft radically mess up the physics engine in a patch, and then still have the same quote on the site -- which physics were perfect? The original's? Or the patch's? The truth is, that Christian Fittipaldi and guys like Bobby Labonte, Dale Earnhardt, Jr., and Jacques Villeneuve are all right, but each person's take on sims is based upon their ability to create that illusion around themselves that they are really driving. The latter bunch is able to, and they appreciate the game and its realism. Others, including those who have endorsed or helped with games, such as Christian, cannot. Their inability to get into the illusion of real driving means that their feedback is of relatively little use. They can describe the what the car in real life does, but they haven't developed the senses necessary to evaluate the 'virtual' version of that car. Hence, to them, an arcade sim might be more fun that a 'realistic' sim such as GPL. It is no disrespect to the drivers that don't get into realistic sims or even racing games at all, but often their endor***t of a product means little, even if they added their thoughts. This became all too painfully clear with me during the time I talked with Christian about Newman-Haas Racing (Psygnosis). He supplied his feedback, but he wasn't enough of a sim-head to really say more than that, in general, a sim cannot capture what he feels in the car, so he doesn't have much interest in sims. Some are,. some aren't. Neither are right, or wrong. Funny, how the racing instructor at Laguna Seca seems to feel that being delicate and having a feather touch on the wheel were important aspects of going fast. I repeat what I said earlier in the post. Physics are physics. How much experience sending men to the surface of the moon did we have before we did it successfully? We had simulated it, we had mapped out the physics for it, but we'd never actually done it. By your reasoning, there was no way NASA should have been able to pull it off, because they hadn't actually DONE it, or had anyone around who had telling them how to do it. Physics are physics. Randy Randy Magruder [link lost in import]

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:54:56 -0500, "David G Fisher" >LOL. Anyone who can write a check can go to a race school. Sorry if this >offends anyone, but I could care less what amateur drivers have to say with >regards to F1 or CART. I'm only interested in the opinions of the VERY BEST. Then why the hell are you even here bothering us "amateurs", since we're so obviously (to you) deluded? Come on...get real. Car physics are car physics....(somewhat simplified for your cranial capacity here but...) you have so much weight with a center of gravity at x, a polar moment of inertia at....etc. Tires with a diameter of d, with a width of w and with a compound of c and have a durometer of x will have a coefficient of grip equal to z on such and such a surface, figuring in a working temperature of f, etc. Add in the camber or crown of the road surface so the grip varies depending on where you are on the track, etc. Become a programmer and buy a calculator and a copy of "Race Car Vehicle Dynamics" and you too could write a fairly accurate physics model for any type of car. The calculations are the same for every type of car out there, "race" or not...you just change the values to fit the vehicle. Even "amateurs" like the guys at the US Pits did a pretty commendable job in taking the much simplified physics model in N2 and adapting it to the touring cars for TPTCC. Think of how much better they could have modeled it with a better physics engine. The physics acting on a Formula Ford are *exactly* the same physics acting on a Modern day F1 car, a 1967 F1 car, or even a city bus being driven through town by your friendly driver. The only difference is in the values plugged into the equations. <snip> I guess we cannot simulate gravity without Sir Isaac Newton's opinion and testing or the explosive power of an H-Bomb without Edmund Tellier telling us we have it right. It's all in numbers and calculations...physics, and those laws are rather set in stone. As long as the variables plugged into the formula are correct then the results likewise should be. Yes, and the only thing is that controller technology hasn't caught up with the physics of the model. We can (and sometimes do) alter our interface so we feel more comfortable. If you remember, not too long ago when Darrell Waltrip showed up at NASCAR short tracks with power steering everyone thought he was nuts...until he lapped the field at a place like Bristol. Now, many of those same drivers wouldn't think of racing without it. We do much the same thing with our wheels and pedals...modifying them to our preferences, and usually making them easier to operate than their real-life counterparts. You've never seen me make a lap at Zandvoort, have you? Believe me, after 20 laps, even with "easier to turn than the real thing" steering, I'm worn out. I'm using almost 180 deg. of wheel travel, even with the steering ratio set to 13:1 and a small "dead zone". And neither do you...at least they have been in real racing cars, so how is your opinion somehow more relevant? I've driven racing cars, though not F1 nor CART, and I have "driven" F1RS and MGPRS2 and GPL, and GPL is head and shoulders above anything else in it's sense of "realism". 'Nuff said. Regards, Doc phRed '95 - CSP #25 Team Monster Miata Stereo -- Never a late apex, never a dull moment.

> The opinions of someone who drives > Formula Ford's mean as much to me as a high school football player trying to > tell me what it's like to play in the NFL. They do not know what it's like > to drive a CART, F1, or '67 F1 any more than I do. David, I think you mean Formula First's. Formula Ford's are pretty fast - their laptimes are only a second or two off the times of BTCC Touring Cars. On the other hand, Formula First's are also raced at events for the paying public and with light-weight bodies and 1600cc engines you can put up quite a***. In any event, the feel of a Formula First is probably more akin to that of a GPL trainer than a modern F1 is, because there is minimal aero on them. And they are a blast to drive whether it's at a racing school or in a series. Also you can tell from driving a go-kart (or indeed from your family saloon) what the physics should feel like. Even your boring Michelin radial or cross-ply has a limit of adhension (don't tell me you've never over-cooked a corner in your road car) and the acceleration due to gravity is the same for your kid's pedal bike as it is for a racing car. Cheers, Paul

I played high school football and I played college football. I played with and against guys that went on to play in the NFL, and I can give you a very simple and accurate assessment of what it's like to play in the NFL. High School = The game is slow, not particularly ***, the coaching is poor (well intentioned but poor), only about 1 or 2 guys per team can actually play the game. College = The game is fast, it is ***, the coaching is excellent, and everybody on the field and on the bench can play the game. Pro = The game is exceptionally fast, extremely ***, the coaching is the best money can buy, and everybody on the field and on the bench is a superstar. Of course whether or not you choose to believe it coming from me is your problem. If Brett Favre says that everybody ought to do Methamphetamine are you going to run out and buy an 8 ball? Endor***ts from the Pro's are probably the least believable because they are simply business transactions. An endor***t from some lowly (in your eyes) instructor at say the Russell Racing School would stand a much better chance of being an accurate assessment. But it probably wouldn't sell many copies of the game would it?

Paul R.a.s. is insignificant. I beta test for two companies and have been contacted by sim developers but it had nothing to do with r.a.s. I know people want to be involved in sim developement but r.a.s. is considered a joke, because, like most newsgroups, there is a sh**load of nonsense, emotion, and cheerleading. David G Fisher We may not be be a large slice of the market, but

Gee, really Dave?

David G Fisher wrote What's your fun of coming here, David ? p.s.: Im searching for a better representation of the hard-core simracing market. - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide <NAS-Frank> http://www.nros.com/ - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

>David, physics are physics. Yes, I know this. I even studied physics for a number of years in high school and college but thanks for the info. I understand how a car works and feels. So does every person in the Western World with a drivers license. The difference between me and many of the Papyrus/GPL cheerleaders is that I, like Fittipaldi, see these sims for what they are at this point in time. I would say that sim developement is at 7 on a scale of 1-10. GPL, MGPRS2, CPR, N2/3, Viper Racing, and surely the upcoming PSCR are all close together at that 7 spot. When sims reach the 10 point then that's when guys like Schumacher and Fittipaldi will be impressed by them. I still love sims but none of them is so much better than the other that I will come on r.a.s. every day and act like a jer* off to anyone who doesn't think my sim of choice is "the best". One thing I have to say Randy is that I fully expect to be shouted down in this thread for the simple reason that the people who will respond will be the same familiar names who have 100, 300, 500+ hours in GPL and will NEVER agree with me after investing so many hours into their sim. Their inability to be objective is because of this time investment. They know who they are. There are other people who I've been familiar with in sim racing for a long time now who love GPL but DO NOT act like the people who I just described. Exactly. That's why I find the GPL comments by the main core of cheerleaders so damn silly. These sims are too far away from being taken seriously by Fittipaldi so how the hell can I act like many of these GPL fans? Fittipaldi, Schumacher, Hill, and the rest would laugh at me if they heard me act like some (not all) here. I love sims but some perspective is needed when discussing how realistic they are. The truth is that a simulator's goal is to recreate the feeling and experience of driving that Fittipaldi, Schumacher, and Earnhardt know. If and when a sim can do that (10 level), all the drivers will be able to hop in the sim and feel like they are driving their cars without having to create the illusion that they are driving. The sim will do that for them. That's the type of simulators NASA and the aviation industry are currently using. As of now, the sims we use on our desktop can't do what we want. Not GPL or any of the others mentioned so the constant bickering and attacks by the GPL zealots against the other sims and their developers is ridiculous. I constantly have had the same 10 Papyrus fans responding to my posts for more than a year. Same guys always responding to my posts because for some reason they don't like the fact that I enjoy more than one sim from more than one developer. It has to be Papyrus. "cannot capture" Again, this is the state of sims so the hairsplitting about physics models and the arguing about which sim is the best ever is silly when looked at objectively. It's relative. The feather touch the racing instructor is referring to is nowhere near the same type of feather touch needed for GPL. The GPL cars are also 30 years old and if you watch some old film of them, the drivers are working hard. You're not comparing going to the moon for the first time to the development of a car sim for our desktop computers, are you? People have been arguing the realism of GPL since the demo was released, but no one is going to convince me that the GPL cars handle incredibally realistic. The straight line instability, the touchy braking, the steering input, and the general way even the most practiced drivers are still drifting all over the track is not realistic. You even commented on the drifting and the ability to drive wild for fast laps in your interview with Doug Arnao. If the lack of real life feedback isn't compensated for properly, an accurate physics model can deliver an unrealistic driving experience. I'll continue to encourage people to enjoy MGPRS2, Viper Racing, PSCR, N3, GPL, and any other new or recent sim/racing game that is in the same class as the one's mentioned in this post. If the GPL cheerleaders don't like that,***'em. If they can actually get upset by a post on r.a.s. they need to get out a little more often.

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:11:36 -0500, "David G Fisher" >Finding a particular snowflake in a blizzard is easier than finding a sim >developer on r.a.s. who wants feedback on a sim in developement. It is if you look for a snowflake who is announcing his presence, but there are an awful lot of snowflakes standing on the sidelines looking on and listening. Cheers! John

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 01:36:58 -0500, "David G Fisher" >R.a.s. is insignificant. I beta test for two companies and have been >contacted by sim developers but it had nothing to do with r.a.s. I've been contacted by seven companies now, five of them through r.a.s. as "first point of contact". Not entirely insignificant, it depends upon your experience. It depends upon your viewpoint. If one is able to separate the sense from the nonsense then you can have good discussions and make good contacts. If you can't then you will be blinded by cheerleading and hype in which case it probably will be a joke. I know many developers who spend time on r.a.s., but the cheerleading stops them only from posting, not from listening. Why pop your head above the parapet after all? I'm sure if I had something to lose I wouldn't bother. Cheers! John

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:54:56 -0500, "David G Fisher" >LOL. Anyone who can write a check can go to a race school. Sorry if this >offends anyone, but I could care less what amateur drivers have to say with >regards to F1 or CART. I'm only interested in the opinions of the VERY BEST. >The one's who actually drive those cars. As you say, LOL! Johnny Herbert tells you his F1 game is accurate. Mark Blundell tells you CPR is accurate. Rubens Barrichello tells you Psygnosis F1 is accurate. Williams Renault tells you GP2 is accurate Frentzen and Alesi tell you Ubisoft F1 is accurate. Knowing how different all of those sims of modern open-wheelers are it's obvious that, interesting though their opinions may be, they cannot be said to be accurate. On top of that, Damon Hill recently tried an old F1 car and commented how utterly, utterly different it was from anything he had tried until then. Given your above statement I guess you would rank the opinion of Pedro Diniz higher than that of Doug Arnao, yet although Pedro has driven at higher level Doug has more and broader experience as well as a lifetime of racing, building and tuning cars. Such an approach is too simplistic. Driving any car will give you more experience to fall back on than someone who is a non-driver, and similarly someone who has driven a Formula Ford will know more than you (assuming you haven't). You can't say that someone who has a PhD in chemistry knows no more than you, just because you prefer to hear a comment from a professor. The difference between F3/F3000 and F1 is in the details and the speed things happen, the fundamentals are very much the same. Beyond that though, ANY racing is very far removed from driving on the road. And look how good GPL turned out. Johnny Herbert has many hundreds of hours experience in F1 cars and the product sucked, as did Prost Grand Prix, Nigel Mansell's etc. There is no correlation between the two. See above. See above. This is nonsense. Simulations are not accurate, there is ALWAYS a compromise. The major compromise that real drivers cannot get beyond is the lack of seat of the pants feel and the lack of depth perception. How to convincingly convey these things by other means is a computer problem, not something an F1 driver can help with. I agree that it would certainly help to have someone consulting (as Papyrus did with several drivers, mechanics, and people who drive these cars nowadays) but it doesn't make it impossible. What should also be clear is that HAVING an experienced driver on the team is no guarantee of accurately simulating anything. Alesi and Frentzen were two of them. As for who worked with Papyrus, if those people had wanted their names to be known they would have been in the manual or announced by now. There seems to be an "emperor's new clothes" feeling about this. Having never tried an F1 car you will accept that F1RS is realistic because Alesi, Frentzen and Verstappen say so - this despite the fact that Alain Prost says the same about PGP and Johnny Herbert about JHGP. Now you think that GPL can't be realistic because no "qualified" driver worked on it - I know that they did. If, for example, I was to tell you that Dan Gurney had consulted with Papyrus from day one and was thoroughly delighted with the product, would GPL suddenly become realistic? The sim itself wouldn't have changed, only your perception. How about if Frentzen and Alesi worked on F1RS but didn't want their names known, would IT still be considered realistic, since as far as we were concerened only some coding types had created it? If your opinion is defined by others you hear then so be it, but sims are created for us and are a suspension of disbelief allowing YOU to drive what you believe an F1 car to be. For someone buying JHGP that's what an F1 car is, for someone buying GPL that's what it is. They're supposed to allow us to have fun and enjoy ourselves, not bring us face to face with our inadequacies by showing us just how badly we would actually drive one of these cars. It's a fine line between being fun and being frustrating. Which do you think comes closest to reality in that regard? </rhetoric> No driver would ever tell you that since at most a sim can be used to teach you track layout and approximate speeds. You will never learn to drive a racecar competitively by using a sim, at least IMHO. You could use it to reach a certain level of competence (and automate some reflexes if the car models things correctly - we have seen this in GPL) but if you don't have a certain level of competence no-one will let you in their racecar anyway. Not so - $1,000 will buy you a drive in an F1 car, at least here in Europe. Change your controller settings if you want realism of that nature. In any formula I've raced in I have sweated buckets, and often my forearms are sore, my legs cramped (esp when left foot braking) and often bruised ribs if the seat is at all ill fitting. It's not an element of realism I find attractive in a sim. Not too different. The only time you ever see an F1 driver cross their arms is at Loews. I have to do so much more than that, but it's just down to controller settings. Each company does, however, know exactly what they are simulating, and they know also what they should be for ultimate accuracy - in short they know the compromises they made. They are making products for people who also do not have a '67 or '98 F1 car at their home and who have often never been to a race, never mind driven at Monza daily. I don't see that we are really in a position to put down their efforts. Cheers! John

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 04:19:43 -0500, "David G Fisher" >Yes, I know this. I even studied physics for a number of years in high >school and college but thanks for the info. I understand how a car works and >feels. So does every person in the Western World with a drivers license. That is not at all the same as understanding how a racecar feels. Any road driver who is taken round the track at racing speed will be scared silly or utterly gobsmacked the first time, that I guarantee. Their inability to agree with you is because they think you're wrong or overstating your case - as is the reason you describe their counterpoints as "cheerleading" to demean it. No. The goal of a simulator is to recreate what YOU BELIEVE Fittipaldi, Schumacher and Earnhardt feel. It took Michael Schumacher twenty years to drive the way he does, and I expect that most people would be able to drive his car but be around 10% seconds or so off his pace. Now take away seat of the pants feeling, depth perception and a whole crew helping you with the setup and you've got a "perfect sim", lacking only that which a computer can't provide, and which shoves reality brutally in your face - You suck compared to Michael Schumacher and you can't drive an F1 car. Not really a big seller. A simulator is compromised according to what the system is capable of running and also what the market expects and is capable of. It is more important that the target market is convinced of it's accuracy than that the real drivers are, since for the majority of us our sim "reality" comes from driving our road cars and from other sims, and therefore our expectations differ from those for whom reality is a given. Those simulators are still not totally accurate, and in any case a 'plane going through the air is not "on edge" the way a racecar is. To accurately model a racecar you would need to simulate bumps, grooves and ruts on the track, marbles and how they react with your tire and are scattered with your slipstream, ground effects, tire wear, basically everything a plane needs (aero stuff) then add ground effect, road contact patches, wear and effect from other cars. Massively more complicated, and not only that but the importance is in the details, since that's where the performance difference comes from. I'd love to see it, but it's a TALL order. I agree with that, although primarily it's because the statement of fact that "GPL has a long way to go before being perfect" is heard as "I think GPL sucks" - strange but true. I personally believe GPL to be pretty much head and shoulders above the competition, at least in the areas that are important to me, but that certainly isn't intended to disparage other products all of which I've enjoyed to greater or lesser extent (SODA for example, which I loved despite having awful graphics and sound, and others hated for precisely the same reason). Pretty much - the only opinion that counts is yours, and if you enjoy it then it really doesn't matter whether the physics model is top notch or not. Recently I really liked Powerslide and Speed Busters, neither of which could be claimed to be massively accurate. So what? Cheers! John

David G Fisher wrote Since this is targeted to me... I probably passed more time in other sims than in GPL. Probably 3-4 more times in Nascar Racing 2 (from the whole NROS issue) and at least double time in Icr2, Gp2, F1RS, SODA than in GPL. Mostly because I have other things to do since it's release, and the time issue is lacking for me. I even enjoyed SpeedBusters last week ! What a joy ! Very refreshing ! So, can you please at least try to get your facts with me when you want to point fingers on me OK ? Errrrrr, even those type of simulators don't recreate the "Feeling the car with you pants" that a real race-car does, or a real aircraft does. Thus your contradicting yourself (and btw, I -know- this because one of the biggest simulator company in the world is here in Montreal). I attacked F1RS way before GPL was out. Just check out dejanes and type something like "F1RS track innacuracies" or "F1RS front tyres". Get your facts David ! Im not "just" a Papyrus fan. I enjoy any type of racing simulator. VIPER Racing was incredebly fun, as with Colin McRae racing (thus a little arcade, but still the "sim" of Rallye-type racing). I enjoyed TOCA and SODA. Gp2 is still IMHO the best overall sim that was ever produced (Heh a little surprised here David ?). I know your "another" time targeting me. Get your FACTS David ! Errrr, if your wheel pushed back and forth like crazy under braking or into the apex, with the G-Forces and steering axes who wants to rip your arms in GPL, I would understand. Thus this is the joy of Virtual racing. The physical effort is diminished (sp?). Still, it is not absent. After a 75% Hickory on the NROS or a 100% Dover, you will be physically and mentally drained. I can understand your point. You want the Perfect sim while we all know the current limits of racing simulators. Thus this DIFFERENT from your early points. You can't accept the fact that GPL is presently the most sophisticated racing simulator on the market. That's not hard to understand. - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide <NAS-Frank> http://www.nros.com/ - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

> >What are you talking about? I've recently > >seen posts from Ubisoft, Papyrus, Microsoft (at > >least an employee of MS), and from the guy working > >on the Trans Am sim. . > You are kidding I hope. Sorry to disappoint you. Paul, who isn't directly related to sim development, is a MS employee, and has posted on here alot. I've also talked with him quite a bit via email. Are you in a coma? Ubisoft has been recruiting focus groups directly from r.a.s. There have been at least two, and I participated in one. He has posted a lot. Almost daily for a while. Haven't seen him here for a while though, so I forget his name, but he's located in Iowa You really want to debate the qualifications of Doug Milliken? Open you eyes - maybe you'll be able to see. Truth hurts. Why do you even bother to participate in such a worthless forum? -- Pat Dotson

I'm afraid John, that if you can't tell the difference between the 2 then you shouldn't be on this NG! The only similarity is the interface and the graphics, everything else is very different to the initiated. Iain >On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 07:41:41 -0000, "Iain Mackenzie" >>I'm afraid there is a lot more to MGPRS than 'an extra couple of tracks' >>John! It is a massive improvement on F1RS. I presume you have not spent much

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>>time on MGPRS, or maybe you have only played the demo. >I tried the demo and was massively disappointed. I then let a friend >convince me of the same thing you described above, so I bought the >full game and tried that. >> try it, you won't be disappointed. >Unfortunately I was. I was disappointed enough having paid BT for the >pleasure of downloading it, and massively more so having paid 30 for >basically what I already had - and I need to put correct cars and >drivers by myself. No thanks. >Cheers! >John

Yeah, and today I did a 20 lap - or 40 minute - race against the GPL AI around Mexico City. No sim has ever made me feel more drained after a race..... Even though I was on my own after taking the lead on lap 9! Cheers! -- Graeme Nash http://www.bromley-fc.co.uk ICQ# 11257824

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 07:04:33 -0000, "Iain Mackenzie" >I'm afraid John, that if you can't tell the difference between the 2 then >you shouldn't be on this NG! The only similarity is the interface and the >graphics, everything else is very different to the initiated. If you have trouble accepting that others do not share your opinion that's something you need to work on. Having tried both the demo and the full product the changes introduced do not warrant 35 of my money, and I'm pretty pissed off having been suckered into wasting it. I'm glad you enjoy it, but you'd be better off spending your time with MGPRS2 than wasting it trying to convince me to do the same or to tell me that I'm wrong. Cheers! John

>Why do you even bother to participate in such a worthless >forum? >-- >Pat Dotson There's 200 posts a day here and you came up with a handful of examples, mostly being minor. David G Fisher

>>They know who they are. >Since this is targeted to me... Actually, I wasn't targeting you. I enjoy your posts. David G Fisher

> >Why do you even bother to participate in such a worthless > >forum? > There's 200 posts a day here and you came up with a handful of examples, > mostly being minor. And you said "developers avoid r.a.s. like the plague". Hardly a day goes by that some representative of some sim-related company posts on here. Just scanning through the authors of todays posts, I find Trevor Thomas, and Jim Sokoloff. Once again, you've made a ridiculous statement that has been shown to be completely false, but continue arguing your point anyway. -- Pat Dotson

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> > >Why do you even bother to participate in such a worthless > > >forum? > > There's 200 posts a day here and you came up with a handful of examples, > > mostly being minor. > And you said "developers avoid r.a.s. like the plague". Hardly a > day goes by that some representative of some sim-related company > posts on here. Just scanning through the authors of todays > posts, I find Trevor Thomas, and Jim Sokoloff. > Once again, you've made a ridiculous statement that has been shown > to be completely false, but continue arguing your point anyway. > -- > Pat Dotson

Pat I think it is important for manufacturers to maintain an r.a.s prescense and so I read it at least twice a day 7 days a week, I also reply to email the same day its recieved. There is nothing that hacks me off worse than companies who do not respond to customer emails or postings and this is why I am always here. Trev

> Pat I think it is important for manufacturers to maintain an r.a.s > prescense and so I read it at least twice a day 7 days a week, I also > reply to email the same day its recieved. > There is nothing that hacks me off worse than companies who do not > respond to customer emails or postings and this is why I am always here. Thanks for being here Trev! -- ------------------------------------------------------ IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html ------------------------------------------------------

Well hey if Europe is great how come we had bail your asses out in WW2. You ***ing savages

- "Mr President, the electricity bill hasn't been paid" - "Let's bomb China then" :-) Cheers! -- Graeme Nash http://www.bromley-fc.co.uk ICQ# 11257824

>Well hey if Europe is great how come we had bail your asses out >in WW2. You ***ing savages School is out ;-) X-Trace: news.eli.net 914704571 207.173.213.222 - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide <NAS-Frank> http://www.nros.com/ - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

Graeme Bubba Clinton would not Bomb China, they have bought too much High tech goods from him. It would be some small insignificant country. Dave

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> >You ***ing savages > - "Mr President, the electricity bill hasn't been paid" > - "Let's bomb China then" > :-) > Cheers! > -- > Graeme Nash > [link lost in import] > ICQ# 11257824

Oh, and I acknowledge that my country had something to do with all that in Iraq..... Just a joke, y'see :-) Now then, back to racing...... Cheers! -- Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824

Another gobby yank blowing the bugle. We did the same in 1939 but you bastards did not hear it until 1941. Try reading a history book, even though yours only goes back some 200 years!! >Well hey if Europe is great how come we had bail your asses out >in WW2. You ***ing savages

We need to stop all these USA vs Europe postings. What happened 40 years ago in WWII has nothing to do with racing. Europeans have a great racing heritage. I'm from America, and I'm ashamed of all these comments. They also have more quality sim game publishers than America. Think about it, here in America we have to wait 6 months to get the best racing games from Europe.

Wow! A Brit considering himself and his country part of Europe. There is still hope! ;-) Just joking, Uwe -- Spam-proof e-mail: Uwe Schuerkamp <hoover at telemedia . de> http://www.telemedia.de/~hoover ////// Phone: +49-5241-80-10-66 Best of Scottish Folk: http://home.pages.de/~nsg >>> Blue Ribbon Campaign: Support Free Speech on the Internet <<<