!!!!F1RS: OOOOooooooh !!!!WOW!!!!

Hi there, On Tuesday I bought a Voodoo2 3dFx 12MB "PCI" graphics card, which is fantastic! Yesterday, I was in "GAME" and saw MGPRS which came free with F1RS for just 35, so I got it... and boy, oh boy, oh boy - what a fantastic sim F1RS is, I can't believe there have been so many complaints about this game!?!?!? The graphics are absolutly stunning, the way the cars drive is fantastic, locking up the wheels, steering, the way you have to be really careful on the throttle it feels sooooo right! It's just like being in France again! I can't believe UbiSoft needed to bring out so many patches! My "F1voo.EXE" says "v1, 0, 0, 0" - do I need to apply any patches ...how can this game be possibly made any better?! Dare I try MGPRS2!? Rob

Why not? Given that it's near identical to that which you've already really enjoyed and you didn't pay for it I can't see how you would be disappointed. I disliked both of the above aspects, and wasn't a fan of F1RS. None of those issues are likely to affect you so go for it! :-) Cheers! John

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> >Dare I try MGPRS2!? > Why not? Given that it's near identical to that which you've already > really enjoyed and you didn't pay for it I can't see how you would be > disappointed. > I disliked both of the above aspects, and wasn't a fan of F1RS. None > of those issues are likely to affect you so go for it! :-)

I wonder why they decided to give away F1RS with MGPRS2 when the latter is supposed to be an improved version of the former ? Doesn't seem to make sense to me. John

> >Dare I try MGPRS2!? > Why not? Given that it's near identical to that which you've already > really enjoyed and you didn't pay for it I can't see how you would be > disappointed. Well, you really did only sit in the pit lane instead of driving around a bit in MGPR, didn't you? Otherwise the quite improved physics should have impressed you at least a little... l8er ronny -- Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

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>> >Dare I try MGPRS2!? >> Why not? Given that it's near identical to that which you've already >> really enjoyed and you didn't pay for it I can't see how you would be >> disappointed. >Well, you really did only sit in the pit lane instead of driving around >a bit in MGPR, didn't you? Otherwise the quite improved physics should >have impressed you at least a little...

Not likely. After all this is the legendary John Wallace, (real race car driver or something). Wow :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:19:03 +0100, Ronald Stoehr >Well, you really did only sit in the pit lane instead of driving around >a bit in MGPR, didn't you? No. Otherwise the quite improved physics should No. Cheers! John

Are you on some f* *** or what? Oh boy oh boy... ... and boy, oh boy, oh boy - what a fantastic sim

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:42:58 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >Not likely. After all this is the legendary John Wallace, (real race car >driver or something). Wow :-) How can one man get one response to one subject so messed up? Lowest form of wit or not, that was quite impressive ;-) Cheers! John

Ronald Stoehr wrote . Should your Spell checker automatically replaced "improved physics" with "improved canned physics" when posting about an Ubisoft title ? ;-) Here we go again... - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

> Hi there, > ..how can this game be possibly made > any better?! Add a few high kerbs here and there. Bring the trees, houses and other scenery to within a few inches of the trackside. Add a few adverse cambers here and there and a few more challenging circuits. As for the cars, reduce power by about 200 bhp, rip the wings off, replace the slick tyres with hard compound treaded ones with half the tread width and quarter of the grip. Finally, apply all the above in context with the most realistic physics engine to date and try to keep it on the black stuff for two hours See ya at VROC :-)) Mark

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> On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:19:03 +0100, Ronald Stoehr > >Well, you really did only sit in the pit lane instead of driving around > >a bit in MGPR, didn't you? > No.

Cool, I didn't expect an answer on that question. It was rethorical, you know? Come on, are you serious? Or is there no god besides GPL? I myself have only VERY little time for MGPR since GPL hit my HD, but that still allows me to see the improvements in MGPR... <scratches head and starts up GPL instead of MGPR> l8er ronny -- Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

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> >> >Dare I try MGPRS2!? > >> Why not? Given that it's near identical to that which you've already > >> really enjoyed and you didn't pay for it I can't see how you would be > >> disappointed. > >Well, you really did only sit in the pit lane instead of driving around > >a bit in MGPR, didn't you? Otherwise the quite improved physics should > >have impressed you at least a little... > Not likely. After all this is the legendary John Wallace, (real race car > driver or something). Wow :-)

Hmm, I'm impressed, but in this case I just think he's wrong. May I? Please? To say, MGPR is near identical to F1RS is as silly as saying, ICR1 is identical to ICR2, isn't it? Not mentioning the added features in MGPR. I hope I didn't hurt anyones feelings... ;^) l8er ronny -- Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

f1rs you can treat the thorttle like your driving a family car, no real worries about nailing it from 0 thottle. Removing it, or ofcorse getting papyrus to make it ...how can this game be possibly made If you want to be dazzled bo no lisencing, slightly improved graphics... Luke www.fan.net.au/~stevephi/overrev/ - Overrev GPL HQ Papyrus - Accept NO subsitutes

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:42:58 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >Not likely. After all this is the legendary John Wallace, (real race car >driver or something). Wow :-) What was that I recall reading, something about "lowest form of wit.."? ;-) Cheers! John

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> Ronald Stoehr wrote . > >Well, you really did only sit in the pit lane instead of driving around > >a bit in MGPR, didn't you? Otherwise the quite improved physics should > >have impressed you at least a little... > Should your Spell checker automatically replaced "improved physics" with > "improved canned physics" when posting about an Ubisoft title ? ;-)

I don't need one, and esp. not one that corrects the semantics instead of the syntax. The physics in MGPR are currently the best in simulating modern F1. BTW, you don't need to tell me (and others) again and again about the unmatched physics in GPL, I know about it. I was talking about MGPR, but I guess some people can only like one sim... Gee, some people including me still LOVE to drive N99, although the physics are silly compared with GPL. l8er ronny -- Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

I didn't. I cam to my conclusion after many months of listening to your insane criticism of F1RS. Real driver or not, you are just plain wrong about F1RS as a PC racing simulation. Um, IMHO :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com >On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:42:58 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >>Not likely. After all this is the legendary John Wallace, (real race car >>driver or something). Wow :-) >How can one man get one response to one subject so messed up? Lowest >form of wit or not, that was quite impressive ;-) >Cheers! >John

>Should your Spell checker automatically replaced "improved physics" with >"improved canned physics" when posting about an Ubisoft title ? ;-) Oh shut up. :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

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>On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:42:58 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >>Not likely. After all this is the legendary John Wallace, (real race car >>driver or something). Wow :-) >What was that I recall reading, something about "lowest form of >wit.."? ;-)

Perhaps. But this post must have really gotten to you since you replied to it twice. Good for you :-) hahaha. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

> I didn't. I cam to my conclusion after many months of listening > to your insane criticism of F1RS. Real driver or not, you are just > plain wrong about F1RS as a PC racing simulation. > Um, IMHO :-) Wow, English is really dangerous in writing, even WITH included smileys. I thought you're ridiculing me for having the guts to disagree with a real race car driver... l8er ronny

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> >On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:42:58 -0600, "Greg Cisko" > >>Not likely. After all this is the legendary John Wallace, (real race car > >>driver or something). Wow :-) > >How can one man get one response to one subject so messed up? Lowest > >form of wit or not, that was quite impressive ;-)

-- Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:02:04 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >I didn't. I cam to my conclusion after many months of listening >to your insane criticism of F1RS. Real driver or not, you are just >plain wrong about F1RS as a PC racing simulation. The only problem is your aversion to my right to hold an opinion that doesn't agree with yours. No-one is arrogant enough to believe that the only truths are those that they believe, surely? Ask Monsieur Nelson to send you the original review I wrote on F1RS if he still has it, I don't think it ever made it to Sim News. You will see that I rather liked it. What the thread was about was MGPRS2, and the difference, or lack thereof, to the original F1RS. Cheers! John

Hey, congratulations, guys! You win Most Confusing Thread of the Week! I even went back to the original post and I'm still not sure what you're bickering about, or who's dinging whom. Way to go! Pinebox

On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:06:05 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >Perhaps. But this post must have really gotten to you since you replied >to it twice. Good for you :-) The perils of having two computers, but I'm glad you got a buzz out of it. Cheers! John

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>> I didn't. I cam to my conclusion after many months of listening >> to your insane criticism of F1RS. Real driver or not, you are just >> plain wrong about F1RS as a PC racing simulation. >> Um, IMHO :-) >Wow, English is really dangerous in writing, even WITH included smileys. >I thought you're ridiculing me for having the guts to disagree with a >real race car driver...

Nope... I was just continuing my year long disagreement with that same race car driver :-) hehe. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com >l8er >ronny >> >On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:42:58 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >> >>Not likely. After all this is the legendary John Wallace, (real race car >> >>driver or something). Wow :-) >> >How can one man get one response to one subject so messed up? Lowest >> >form of wit or not, that was quite impressive ;-) >-- >Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change >to take effect. Reboot now? > |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, > ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. > |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, > '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Well go back and study it some more. It is actually pretty straight forward. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com >Hey, congratulations, guys! >You win Most Confusing Thread of the Week! >I even went back to the original post and I'm still not sure what you're >bickering about, or who's dinging whom. >Way to go! >Pinebox

blah blah blah whatever. i kept f1rs on my HD for well over 15 minutes. does anybody want the goddam thing? it's free, man. what a load of shit that game is. lemme know.

Spoken like a true Papyrus fan. David G Fisher

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>Removing it, or ofcorse getting papyrus to make it >...how can this game be possibly made >>any better?! >If you want to be dazzled bo no lisencing, slightly improved graphics... >Luke >www.fan.net.au/~stevephi/overrev/ - Overrev GPL HQ >Papyrus - Accept NO subsitutes

Blah, blah, blah, Papyrus are my heroes, blah, blah, blah. David G Fisher rip the wings off, replace the

A few "boy oh boys" is certainly a welcome departure from the boring, teary eyed poems, written about GPL. David G Fisher

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>Are you on some f* *** or what? Oh boy oh boy... >... and boy, oh boy, oh boy - what a fantastic sim >>F1RS is, I can't believe there have been so many complaints about this >>game!?!?!? >>The graphics are absolutly stunning, the way the cars drive is fantastic, >>locking up the wheels, steering, the way you have to be really careful on >the >>throttle it feels sooooo right! I can't >>believe UbiSoft needed to bring out so many patches! My "F1voo.EXE" says >"v1, >>0, 0, 0" - do I need to apply any patches ...how can this game be possibly >made >>any better?!

blah blah blah (sorry Grag :-)) Hmmm. I don't think I'd agree with that. ICR2 was SVGA. Remember the VGA of ICR1? To some, that might seem trivial. But I don't remember anyone saying so at the time. Is there anything about MGPRS2 that is as obviously different from F1RS as that? My answer: clearly not. As a matter of fact, well opinion, the biggest difference is that MGP has the sort-of retrograde step of NOT having actual cars/drivers. (Yes, I know that is easily rectified. But my point is that is the first thing that jumps out at you as different). Note, I have both, and am currently (okay not right NOW) enjoying MGP. Sometimes that's half the fun, no?

>Rob Absolutely yes. There are a group of Papyrus flag wavers here who only want people to like a Papyrus sim so........... MGPRS2 has been greatly improved in many areas, and will also be releasing a patch within the next few weeks which will include a game service for internet racing. David G Fisher

David G Fisher wrote Really ? So you finally accepted the truth ? ;-) - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:24:30 +0100, Ronald Stoehr >Cool, I didn't expect an answer on that question. It was rethorical, you >know? As you said, "was". Now you know better :-) Of course that's not the case. I very much enjoyed F1RS, but MGPRS2 is a total rip-off with the minimal changes offered and full price charged despite their not having to buy the license. Cheers! John

% Blah, blah, blah, Papyrus are my heroes, blah, blah, blah. % David G Fisher I am beginning to think you inserted the GPL CD-ROM disc into the wrong opening. Try removing it and place in your CD-ROM drive... :) -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Fanspastic... Frankly I love every racing game but I fail to see what the big hubab is with gpl. sure its fun but almost any spinout can be countered by turning IN even more?!?! and the way the car oscillates around a invisible pin whilst going around corners is just a tad ***isn't it? having said that it still a hoot but so is that ubi game, for a while anyway. there is more to learn in gpl but if i want the REAL physics i load up my sad ***lo-res PS and popin GT-the REAL driving sim haha David G Fisher schrieb in Nachricht >>Rob >Absolutely yes. There are a group of Papyrus flag wavers here who only want >people to like a Papyrus sim so........... >MGPRS2 has been greatly improved in many areas, and will also be releasing a >patch within the next few weeks which will include a game service for >internet racing. >David G Fisher

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>Fanspastic... >Frankly I love every racing game but I fail to see what the big hubab is >with gpl. >sure its fun but almost any spinout can be countered by turning IN even >more?!?! and the way >the car oscillates around a invisible pin whilst going around corners is >just a tad ***isn't it? >having said that it still a hoot but so is that ubi game, for a while >anyway. there is more to learn in gpl >but if i want the REAL physics i load up my sad ***lo-res PS and popin >GT-the REAL driving sim >haha

I love playing GT but have you ever seen a real car slide around on tarmac like that. Watch Le-Mans or Touring Cars and it just doesn't happen. The tyres would last about 2 laps before blowing. Dean

>but if i want the REAL physics i load up my sad ***lo-res PS and popin >GT-the REAL driving sim And thrill to 150 hp normal cars hitting 150 mph. Yeah, that's real.

>>but if i want the REAL physics i load up my sad ***lo-res PS and popin >>GT-the REAL driving sim >And thrill to 150 hp normal cars hitting 150 mph. Yeah, that's real. Why would that be unreal? That power may not be able to shove a chevy to 150mph but if you design something with a more appropriate weight and reasonable drag coefficient there's no reason why not. Cheers! John

>>And thrill to 150 hp normal cars hitting 150 mph. Yeah, that's real. >Why would that be unreal? That power may not be able to shove a chevy >to 150mph but if you design something with a more appropriate weight >and reasonable drag coefficient there's no reason why not. Here's the problem with the internet, write a short post where you don't explain everything and someone will invariably come up with the oddball case that is the exception. Come on John as one of this ng's elder statesman, you know (or should know if you are going to post about it) that Gran Turismo deals with real-world cars, not something designed to 1100 lbs and a Cd of 0.18 (uh oh, I can sense some going back and doing the calc to see if this is what is necessary). I did write "normal cars" as you quoted above. I was even going to fire up GT to provide examples. But deemed it uneccesary. Silly me. I don't recall offhand, but I usually drive the Hondas in GT and they have ridiculously high top end speeds. These are "unmodified" Hondas (and yes, I know that Hondas for some reason often have higher than spec hp in GT). The Miata is also too fast. In fact, every unmodified car I've tried is too fast in GT. For a real world example, my 142hp Integra, a medium light, aero car, tops out at under 130. The extra hp to get it up 150 mph is large, approx 50%. Okay, the above was somewhat in jest. But face it, you can say "white" on the net, and you'll get a half-dozen responses of "black" (and alas, a few that will claim you are a racist)...

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> >>but if i want the REAL physics i load up my sad ***lo-res PS and > >>popin GT-the REAL driving sim > >And thrill to 150 hp normal cars hitting 150 mph. Yeah, that's real. > Why would that be unreal? That power may not be able to shove a chevy > to 150mph but if you design something with a more appropriate weight > and reasonable drag coefficient there's no reason why not.

For shure. My 1210kg 150hp Mazda 626 already does 135mph. And it is limited, above 6200rpm the hp's drop like an airborn chevy while the revs still get close to 7000rpm. -- Ren van Lobberegt, The Netherlands. Cheetah Racing : http://renevanl.www.cistron.nl/cheetah/index_nl.html Personal site : http://www.toptown.com/INNERCIRCLE/1846/ AMCA webmaster : http://www.amcaracing.nl/

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>> >And thrill to 150 hp normal cars hitting 150 mph. Yeah, that's real. >> Why would that be unreal? That power may not be able to shove a chevy >> to 150mph but if you design something with a more appropriate weight >> and reasonable drag coefficient there's no reason why not. >For shure. My 1210kg 150hp Mazda 626 already does 135mph. And it is >limited, above 6200rpm the hp's drop like an airborn chevy while the >revs still get close to 7000rpm.

That must be some 626. In the US, the 164 hp model was tested at 128 mph by Road&Track. I suspect that 135 is highly optimistic. Further, getting that extra 15 mph would require increasing hp by another third. Okay, I went back and tested some of the Gran Tursimo cars. Here's how they rated compared to R&T tests: Gran Turismo R&T test Integra GSR 158 134 '94 Prelude VTEC 164 137 gen1 Miata 147 121 As I previously mentioned, GT is way optimistic. The Lude was listed as 205 hp instead of 190, otherwise, the game hp's matched the real hp's within one. To reach 164, a real Lude would require about 300 hp.

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> >For shure. My 1210kg 150hp Mazda 626 already does 135mph. And it is > >limited, above 6200rpm the hp's drop like an airborn chevy while the > >revs still get close to 7000rpm. > That must be some 626. In the US, the 164 hp model was tested at 128 mph by > Road&Track. I suspect that 135 is highly optimistic. Further, getting that > extra 15 mph would require increasing hp by another third.

You're probably talking new model with automatic gears? I'm talking '90 hand shifted european GT model (2.0i 16V). If it hadn't been limited it would have had way beyond 150hp. The power curve goes up in a straight line until 6200hp and then it suddenly drops dead to keep the revs below the red. It's not just a matter of number of hp's, but also how they come available. But anyway, seeing these figures , I can only agree with you. Maybe they're tuned up unmodified cars? :) -- Ren van Lobberegt, The Netherlands. Cheetah Racing : http://renevanl.www.cistron.nl/cheetah/index_nl.html Personal site : http://www.toptown.com/INNERCIRCLE/1846/ AMCA webmaster : http://www.amcaracing.nl/

>> That must be some 626. In the US, the 164 hp model was tested at 128 mph by >> Road&Track. I suspect that 135 is highly optimistic. Further, getting that >> extra 15 mph would require increasing hp by another third. >You're probably talking new model with automatic gears? I thought it was the standard, but not sure. It's a 2.5L six. Previous model. I know the similar Probe GT, same 164 hp engine, manual transmission, had top speed of 131 in a C&D test. But then it would probably be well over 150hp if it actually could manage sufficient torque at those higher revs. Anyway, I don't know anything about the Euro model, but... Well, we can get way off topic here. Basically, top speed really *is* a matter of just hp, well, drag and rolling friction too. But as long as your car's top speed is hp limited and not rev limited (or governed), the max hp determines your max speed. By example, if your car has hp & gearing such that it redlines before it reaches top speed, you are rev (gearing) limited. Conversely, if it reaches its top speed at your car's hp peak rpm, it is hp "drag" limited. I guess one can imagine a case where the gear ratios are poorly chosen such that you run out of speed before you can reach the peak hp rpm (a tall 5th gear with a too short 4th?). But anyway, either you get a reasonable top speed for your hp or you get less top speed. You don't get 150 mph out of 150 hp with a "normal" (note 1) car. Note 1: Typical road car with typical weight and drag. Or even one getting rather extreme (ex: 1800+ lbs, 0.26+ CD). I'd imagine that anywhere there is an autobahn, they might pay more attention to drag and high speed rolling friction than here in the land of the 65 mph limit and torque-monster engines. But not *that* much to change the above conclusions. In the case of the Civic Si, yes! The one I "bought" puts out 164 hp, well above the "spec" of ~125. Phewww! Have I spent more time on this than I planned!

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>Well, we can get way off topic here. Basically, top speed really *is* a >matter of just hp, well, drag and rolling friction too. But as long as your >car's top speed is hp limited and not rev limited (or governed), the max hp >determines your max speed. By example, if your car has hp & gearing such that >it redlines before it reaches top speed, you are rev (gearing) limited. >Conversely, if it reaches its top speed at your car's hp peak rpm, it is hp >"drag" limited. I guess one can imagine a case where the gear ratios are >poorly chosen such that you run out of speed before you can reach the peak hp >rpm (a tall 5th gear with a too short 4th?).

Okay, had my head up my a** on this one. I didn't mention the other case where this won't hold, and it is probably the most usual case: where the highest gear is too short, so you reach your hp peak but are geared to a slower speed, then at higher speeds, your hp is below peak.

reality check...... if you want real, go get real. If you spend 30 (bucks or quid), play the game and enjoy it (operative word here being "game") or don't play it. You may think that one's more enjoyable/better than the next, but if you don't see what the "hubab" is don't try to change opinion because it doesn't suit your tastes or fit your perception. The fact is that, for 30-35 of whatever your currency is, GPL has by far the best physics imitation currently available, whether you lke that or not is not the point. GT is a game, it doesn't even make (nor hope to reach) an attempt at being a simulation, it does a passable job of intimating the differences between "real life" cars, the enormous gaps and missing data are all filled in by that wonderfull grey matter filling the void in (some of!! :-)) our skulls As you said at the start of your post - all driving games are great...and will get better. have a happy, driving, new year!! :-) cheers -Lindsay

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>Fanspastic... >Frankly I love every racing game but I fail to see what the big hubab is >with gpl. >sure its fun but almost any spinout can be countered by turning IN even >more?!?! and the way >the car oscillates around a invisible pin whilst going around corners is >just a tad ***isn't it? >having said that it still a hoot but so is that ubi game, for a while >anyway. there is more to learn in gpl >but if i want the REAL physics i load up my sad ***lo-res PS and popin >GT-the REAL driving sim >haha >David G Fisher schrieb in Nachricht >>>Rob >>Absolutely yes. There are a group of Papyrus flag wavers here who only

want

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>>people to like a Papyrus sim so........... >>MGPRS2 has been greatly improved in many areas, and will also be releasing >a >>patch within the next few weeks which will include a game service for >>internet racing. >>David G Fisher

>Here's the problem with the internet, write a short post where you don't >explain everything and someone will invariably come up with the oddball case >that is the exception. Hardly "the oddball case", it's pretty normal. Only in the U.S. does "horsepower=speed", in the rest of the world weight and lower drag are equally or more important. Sorry for confusing the issue - my comment was based in the real world, not specifically related to GT. On the GT issue, the designer based the cars on real world data but did not stick to it hard and fast - some cars he made faster/better for personal reasons (one car being the first he ever owned, another being the first he ever crashed and wrote off etc etc). Strangely enough, and not to have a go at people from the U.S., but the only people who get upset about that are people from the U.S.. I've never seen anyone from Japan complaining that NFS3 is dominated by U.S. and European cars which are all faster than the Japanese ones, nor indeed any Europeans caring too much. People from the U.S. seem more sensitive to things like this, perhaps expecting "U.S. to be best" and being unhappy when it is not portrayed as such. Not an opinion, just an observation. Cheers! John

I think in the U.S. top speed is limited by engine electronics at least on some cars. I once managed to get my stock U.S. ~100HP '90 Honda Civic Si up to 124mph on a long downhill mountain highway but I remember at the time hearing that the there was a limiter on the engine that made 120mph the top speed the downhill added the 4mph maybe in a hurricane I could have made 130mph :-) Perhaps European vehicles lack these artificial limits since in Europe they don't have the ridiculous driving laws of the U.S. (speaking as an American who lived in Germany for 2 years and loved the driving laws there) Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva

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>That must be some 626. In the US, the 164 hp model was tested at 128 mph by >Road&Track. I suspect that 135 is highly optimistic. Further, getting that >extra 15 mph would require increasing hp by another third. >Okay, I went back and tested some of the Gran Tursimo cars. Here's how they >rated compared to R&T tests: > Gran Turismo R&T test >Integra GSR 158 134 >'94 Prelude VTEC 164 137 >gen1 Miata 147 121 >As I previously mentioned, GT is way optimistic. The Lude was listed as 205 >hp instead of 190, otherwise, the game hp's matched the real hp's within one. >To reach 164, a real Lude would require about 300 hp.

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>>Here's the problem with the internet, write a short post where you don't >>explain everything and someone will invariably come up with the oddball case >>that is the exception. >Hardly "the oddball case", it's pretty normal. Only in the U.S. does >"horsepower=speed", in the rest of the world weight and lower drag are >equally or more important.

Are you saying that weight has a major role on top speed? Please explain. I think it is rather small, though yes, a factor. Certainly drag is a very important term. Going back to the original reply's car, a Mazda 626 2.0 Si (did I get that right)? Do you know how much the frontal area * Cd might be lowered compared to the US variant? I can't imagine enough to make it anywhere near a 150/150 car. Can you name "real world" (includes Europe :-)) cars that make 150 mph with only 150 hp? I don't mean this as a beat-a-dead-horse issue, just wondering how much of a factor that might be. As an aside, yes, I've driven in Europe. Quite enjoyed the cars there being into smaller cars myself. Interesting. I'd like to know more of these inside stories. Remember, this whole things started with someone claiming GT handily had the best physics out there, (GPL included if I recall), to which I replied that I thought not. Ah, but you are. Was this addressed to me, or just a general observation? My last two cars have been Hondas. Before that a Dodge-badged Mitsubishi, and a German Ford. Honda is over-rated in hp in the game. Yet, I buy, race and enjoy the Hondas. If anything, I want them to add European cars to the game. So, if you meant to apply the above to me, you must have done some creative observing. My observation? Everyone is more willing to ascribe behaviors to "them" that don't apply to "us". Porsches, Ferrari's, etc are just as desired here, if not more, than in Europe. We don't have as wide a variety of cars, so yes, maybe we tend to dismiss what we don't know (Citroen, Peugot disappeared from the US market years ago, as did Fiat). And certainly there are the "Ford guys" and "Chevy guys" who swear by their brands. But I'd say there is as strong a bias here (sad to say) that says "american = junk". I was in the UK about a month ago. Picked up a couple of car mags to burn some coins (Car, Autocar). Not very surprised to see the Elise and TVR's held in such high esteem. Got quite a kick out of the panning they gave the Corvette. What do I want next? An Elise! regards, Dave

>I think in the U.S. top speed is limited by engine electronics at least >on some cars. It's also limited by a lot of the emission controls and additonal electronic gizmos required for the U.S. market - standard air-con and such like. The U.S. spec BMW M3-Evo is noticably down on power from it's Euro counterpart for this reason. Then again, all cars in Japan are legally limited to a maximum of 280hp and 112mph so if we're talking about GT it obviously doesn't take that into account. Cheers! John

>Certainly drag is a very important term. Going back to the original reply's >car, a Mazda 626 2.0 Si (did I get that right)? Do you know how much the >frontal area * Cd might be lowered compared to the US variant? I can't >imagine enough to make it anywhere near a 150/150 car. Can you name "real >world" (includes Europe :-)) cars that make 150 mph with only 150 hp? The Rocket, the Caterham Super-7? From the top of my head I'm not sure, and since I know everyone's gonna slip on their anoraks and get the reference books out I'm not going to take a flyer on it :-) Well, the Diablo is bigger than a Ford Transit van but I know what you mean! It's just different I suppose. I like driving in the U.S. because it's sometimes good to drive something as big as a barge on a road that's like the front straight at Indy! Coming from Scotland where the "main road" to go to the highlands is a massively congested two lane affair that looks like a road through residential housing in the U.S. it's a nice change! Somewhere in the house I have an interview with the designer where people asked about some of the foibles and inconsistencies of GT and he explained where they came from. Certainly from his description of the physics of GT I know it's not as "good" (meaning "complete") as GPL but then the "physics" of a sim is only a means to an end - how to get it to "feel" real when driving - and GT accomplishes that very well. It's also pretty clear from the interview that he played fast and loose with the parameters sometimes depending upon his preferences or what gameplay required, which is something a sim shouldn't really do (or only to a lesser extent). I know it looks like it but honestly I wasn't :-) It's just something I've observed many times. I think that coming from a small country like Scotland we get used to not being the best at something, whereas people from the U.S. tend to think the opposite. Not even slightly related to you - sorry if I implied it. We both drive Hondas, so that's something in common! My last cars have been Honda, Volvo, Peugot & BMW. So the world is less self-analytical than outwardly critical. No surprise there. There's no doubt Europeans are as biased in their own way. There is a belief here that American cars are big, powerful and handle like a tractor. European cars are biased toward poise and roadholding, which is why cars like the Elise are given such respect. You wouldn't go far wrong - it is a really nice car as long as you don't want to drag-race too many Corvettes! Cheers! John

well said...nimble but fast...not exactly and american concept, 'car' LOVES the viper too, haha. having said that I think i can see the american appeal. big, fat, loud, and brute...they still come up with the coolest cars to look at. the viper is unreal, and panoz builds some ***in corkers... the good old gtr which pretty much burns anything made in us instead looks like a ***y aunties-car... I still believe that the physics in gt set the standard , certain play mechanics excluded. Gpl feels a little plasticy, and artificial. I mean in certain situations you can feel certain gyroscopic forces pulling vectors around. gt does that too but only on spastic set-ups. David Masten schrieb in Nachricht ....