Monaco Grand Prix RS2 A sad and pathetic joke...

A sad a pathetic joke because it is nothing more than a patch to F1RS. Yes, those of us who thought that based on the demo are correct. I am an F1RS fan for the following reasons. The attempt at realism is laudable. They didn't always make it, but there was an honest attempt to make this a real sim. The patches...although it was frustrating that so many patches were required, UbiSoft did at least release patches that seemed to be in response to user requests (the glue-like grass, for example). The graphics are top-notch (as good as I need, anyway) and assuming you have a 3dfx card, do not need a supercomputer to get great frame rates. The default set-ups are pathetic, but thanks to people like Guy Cote some terrific set-ups were done that transform the handling of the cars tremendously. The original sounds of the engine and shifting are horrid, but again, fans to the rescue. The menu system is incredibly badly designed and documented, canned spins (or at least canned spin processes) are used, the controller support was not what it should be, the game won't remember set-ups from one session to another, the throttle control is detached from reality...i.e., you can rev to 12,000 r.p.m. and drop the car into first gear and the revs will drop immediately to idle and then progress upward as though you were not already revving the snot out of the engine. This is crucial (and very, very bad) not so much for the one-time drop into first gear at a start but because this is the way all gear shifts are handled. The engine's torque and power are not modelled in a dynamic fashion, but in a static one instead (I could spend a lot of time explaining this, but those of you who care will likely already know lots about it). The grip levels on pavement are too low, on grass too high (still, after the patches) and on wet pavement too low. Sound support has always been a problem. Nevertheless, all in all, you could have a lot of fun with F1RS...and hope that the major physics flaws could some day be addressed......which brings us to MGPRS2. The graphics are, for all intents and purposes identical to F1RS except that there is now support for higher resolutions. Fine...I don't really care as 640x480 looks fine to me as they have styled the graphics quite well and they give a good sense of speed. The sound support is worse than in F1RS, if this is possible. More problems with more sound cards. And the sounds themselves, already horribly inadequate in F1RS are actually worse in MGPRS2. There is a debate as to whether the quiet little electric motor-like buzzing and click-ratchet shifting is actually what you would hear in a real F1 car wearing a real F1 regulation helmet. I only know what the cars sound like from the outside and this ain't it. If in fact that's all you can hear of the monstrous motor a few centimetres behind your head, then how on earth could you hear other cars or the sound of your car driving on the grass or the tires squealing. The grass (rippling-crunching) is about triple the volume of the engine. You can adjust all of the volumes of the individual sounds (with the Sound Editor supplied--in French language (in the UK version of the game)) and the overall sound levels (engine versus other sounds versus announcer's messages), but the original sound adjustments and several of the samples are ridiculously inadequate. Personally, I am using the same third-party engine and shift sounds that I used for F1RS. Whether I use these, or the original sound file (pack), I get sound cutting-out at points where there is supposed to be echoing (close to an enclosed area) and I cannot hear the opponents cars at all. (For reference, I had the same problem of sound cutting out on F1RS after switching from a SB AWE32 to a SB PCI128, but the latest driver release from CL fixed that--not so in MGPRS2.) The physics have NOT been updated at all--just tweaked a bit in a manner that could have been done easily in a patch to F1RS. The grip levels have been increased dramatically to what "seems" to be a more natural or realistic level. The default set-ups are now usable, so you can actually drive the tracks without doing hours of set-up first. The throttle seems 20 times more sensitive than in F1RS, but unfortunately, it is just a very cheap trick... The throttle sensitivity is now adjusted by gear. If you are in neutral or in 6th gear, the normal 100% range of throttle is available. The range steps down by gear, so that by the time you reach first gear you have 100% of the throttle sensitivity crammed into about 10% of the throttle movement. In other words, do anything other than barely touching the throttle from launch and you will be doing a full-throttle tire-burning exercise in futility. This is even more unrealistic than the original F1RS, though if you are a moron, it may give you the illusion that there is more power readily available in first gear than in the taller gears. It results in maximum throttle acceleration requiring a series of progressively deeper throttle movements as you go up through the gears. This may suit some digital controllers, but I have no idea who would think it was suitable for an analogue controller or who would think it was an improvement over the old system. The menus seem to run a wee bit faster (and are still too slow, but not agonizingly and ridiculously slow like the ones in F1RS), but the same illogical and confusing design was used. It seems as though they just couldn't be bothered updating anything that actually required real work. No one--not even the most ardent F1RS fans, liked the menu system. The game does remember what set-up you were using (thank goodness), but there is no "default" setting to get back to the original easily. The retro-mode had some possibilities, but it was obviously not given the attention and polish that would be necessary to make it a great part of the game. I love the fake names for the teams...at least someone here had a sense of humour. Instead of Team One, Two, etc. that are used in the regular part of the game to replace the real names that are no longer licensed, creative names like Team Beta Julietta are used. Now I wonder which famous Italian car company that would represent!!! :) Only one track and the same ridiculously unimproved throttle physics and a lack of grip render the retro mode a bust. They actually have four cars with four distinct and interesting motor sounds and four distinct and accurate***pits (and four names that don't require too much knowledge to figure-out), but they could not come up with anything better for sounds and ***pits in the main part of the game?????? On the subject of the lack of licensing, it really is a non-starter for all of us 'net-types since all of the tracks and cars and***pits have already been re-done by fans, so you can have your up-to-date details in the game. The question for me is why are we paying full price for this? The AI? I haven't managed to race much yet--mostly because I cannot hear my opponents and the tiny mirrors are wholly inadequate to use as the only basis to place opponents. UbiSoft claim a big improvement in AI, but quite frankly, I would fall out of my chair if it was anything other than a minor improvement. Those of you in the know please let us know what the actual changes are to the AI. Full price for a patch....that you have to rely on the good works and generosity of fellow gamers just to get back to the level of accuracy of F1RS!!!!!! Sorry, in my mind this is a gross rip-off, a huge misstep by UbiSoft and that's why I am writing this post. Many, many months passed between v. 1.09 of F1RS and the release of MGPRS2. The game is a minor update (and in some ways a retrograde step) to F1RS. How can it have as many or more bugs related to the main part of the game as the original F1RS did??? It is unbelievable. Patch support, so far, is worse than for F1RS. Take it or leave it...it's up to you. If you own F1RS I would highly not recommend buying MGPRS2. If you don't own it, then I would highly recommend waiting until enough patching is done to demonstrate that this title is not going to be orphaned in its current bug-ridden state. And, then, if the bugs are fixed, buy it if you like modern F1 sims. and can live with a physics model that is so far behind GPL (and apparently not an advance over F1RS) it will make your car spin...at all the wrong times and for all the wrong reasons. Marc. -- **************************************************************************** Marc Collins "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist---" General John B. Sedgwick's last words, 1864 ****************************************************************************

On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:27:19 -0500, "Marc Collins" >Full price for a patch....that you have to rely on the good works and >generosity of fellow gamers just to get back to the level of accuracy of >F1RS!!!!!! Sorry, in my mind this is a gross rip-off, a huge misstep by >UbiSoft and that's why I am writing this post. I don't know about the rest of the world, but here in Poland the game sells for $29 aprox. and this sure is not a "full price".

>A sad a pathetic joke because it is nothing more than a patch to F1RS. Yes, >those of us who thought that based on the demo are correct. Whether "patch" or not is an incendiary topic. On it, I'll just say that it adds more than one would demand from a patch, but certainly doesn't appear to be a major rewrite. Perhaps Ubisoft plans to use the strategy of a few other companies in yearly updates. This is most possible with sports sims where a new year brings new players, stats, teams. Of course, here it is sort of moot due to the lack of licensing, thus no-names. Anyway, to some of your points... Note that at least backing off the pedal while in gear now doesn't sound like you've gone to zero revs instantly. Hmmm, I care, but I admit to not knowing what you refer to. okay... I agree, though it does look like higher texture bitmaps might have been used? Yes in that I have probs akin to the initial F1RS release, no in the aforementioned improvement in the off-throttle sound. Also, did they (slightly) improve the behind-car view's sound? Have they been?? I haven't noticed. My brakes lock all too readily. I have to back off the 55/45 bias to about 50/50 (and F1RS used 60/40!). I'm not sure of this. By fiddling with the gear ratios, admittedly making them too tall, I get less tendency to spin with throttle application. But yes, the damned thing is sensitive! Of course, you know that there isn't more power in any gear, but the importan Hmm, maybe I should start feeling insulted :-) Of course, you know that there isn't more power in any gear, but the important factor, torque at the wheel, is higher in lower gears. Probably at least somewhat true being that full application in the lower gears would result in useless wheelspin. But I'll go back and see if I agree with your ~10% travel point. Yes, here it shows that it, obviously, isn't a major rewrite. If you hit one of the two buttons to the right of the prerace <--> race buttons, you get the default setups for that screen, or all setups. What they did do for us, is set the basic performance parameters. Personally, I'd MUCH rather these be adjustable too and I'm lobbying for it. Of course, they might see that as a potentially lost market for next year's version, and the next... Me, I won't buy it again without a major update. So here, I do agree with your main point. I hear them (but I use the canned sounds). And I have been able to play games with the opponents, blocking them and such, using the (probably realistic) tiny mirrors. I'm not in the know, just going by a couple of races. They are very aggressive in passing you in expert mode, poor in amateur. I haven't seen the same continuous futile passing attempts resulting in riding the curbs as I saw with F1RS. Then again, alas too much like the real thing, I see little passing. They added blue flagging. It has a couple of slight probs, but overall a very nice addition. Just passing on observations, not claiming to evaluate the overall AI improvement. I haven't seen the ridiculously large initial fuel loads carried where they then pitted anyway for tires. Which makes expecting a real rewrite optimistic. I'd say overall a plus, but not as big to me as some others claim. I don't understand why they have run into similar sound probs.

Replying to my previous reply :-)

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>>The throttle sensitivity is now adjusted by gear. If you are in neutral or >>in 6th gear, the normal 100% range of throttle is available. The range >>steps down by gear, so that by the time you reach first gear you have 100% >>of the throttle sensitivity crammed into about 10% of the throttle movement. >I'm not sure of this. By fiddling with the gear ratios, admittedly making >them too tall, I get less tendency to spin with throttle application.

Okay, I went back and checked. I disagree with your statement. Yes, if you go to more than about 1/2 throttle in first gear, and somewhat more throttle in second, your tires slip. But I think it is a reasonable torque effect, not some stick sensitivity game. For instance, as I mentioned, if I change the 1st and 2nd gear ratios, the problem is ameliorated. Second, if I simultaneoulsy apply brake, I find that I can adjust the speed and accel in the latter stages of throttle application in these gears. This indicates the controller still has authority at near max pedal. The part I was replying to got munched by my newsreader. It was in response to Mark saying: And, as above, I do not agree at all. I also should mention that the game feels smoother in control to me. While still a bit stiff and "on rails" feeling, it is better than F1RS. Major? Perhaps not, but one of the reasons I stopped playing the first. But still, if someone asked if they should get this after having F1RS, I'd express some caution. To me, it is better. But not anything akin to the usual improvement one sees in the next gen of a product. Nowhere near.

On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:27:19 -0500, "Marc Collins" >A sad a pathetic joke because it is nothing more than a patch to F1RS. Yes, >those of us who thought that based on the demo are correct. <lengthy elaborations snipped> Summed up, the question is whether it's worth to pay for it or not. IMO it definately is, since the amount of changes far exceeds what I would expect from a 'patch'. However from what you wrote it looks like MGP is actually worse than F1RS what it is clearly not, it just hasn't changed much in certain areas but some important things have been undoubtly improved - such as the physics (or call it car behaviour if you want) together with setup techniques, i.e no more full front wing combined with zero rearwing to achieve neutral carbalance and similar nonsense :)... -- Tel http://members.xoom.com/Tel33 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ a.k.a. Holger Bachert F1RS Cars & Design

<completely valid criticisms snipped> I agree totally - after playing GPL, I could never go back and play MGP RS2. I just hope GP3 lives up to the hype for those who want an up-to-date F1 sim. Me, I'm not bothered. Roll on GPL2. - Michael

> A sad a pathetic joke because it is nothing more than a patch to F1RS. Yes, > those of us who thought that based on the demo are correct. A patch? I don't think there were bigger enhancements between N1/2 or ICR1/2. If MGPR should have been a patch, we wouldn't see any patches anymore. l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

> <completely valid criticisms snipped> > I agree totally - after playing GPL, I could never go back and play MGP RS2. > I just hope GP3 lives up to the hype for those who want an up-to-date F1 > sim. Me, I'm not bothered. Roll on GPL2. Isn't your logic a little messed up? MGPR looses against GPL in the physics department, but to say that for a great sim of modern F1 we have to wait for GP3, that's just nonsense. l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

that's just >nonsense That was just an example - can you see a "great sim of modern F1" coming from anywhere else? - Michael

I agree the set-up area is much better. But my point for those in this group, who tend to care about these sorts of things (witness the gazillion GPL messages), is that the physics have not been improved--just changed. If I could get Papy to re-jig the grip levels and so forth in ICR2 or N2, I would not call that improved physics the way I call GPL improved physics. One is a change, perhaps for the better, the other is an improvement or an advancement. Marc. >On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:27:19 -0500, "Marc Collins" >>A sad a pathetic joke because it is nothing more than a patch to F1RS. Yes,

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>>those of us who thought that based on the demo are correct. ><lengthy elaborations snipped> >Summed up, the question is whether it's worth to pay for it or not. >IMO it definately is, since the amount of changes far exceeds what I >would expect from a 'patch'. However from what you wrote it looks like >MGP is actually worse than F1RS what it is clearly not, it just hasn't >changed much in certain areas but some important things have been >undoubtly improved - such as the physics (or call it car behaviour if >you want) together with setup techniques, i.e no more full front wing >combined with zero rearwing to achieve neutral carbalance and similar >nonsense :)... >-- >Tel > http://members.xoom.com/Tel33 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >a.k.a. Holger Bachert F1RS Cars & Design

>Replying to my previous reply :-) How far down do you have to hold the accelerator to max-out the revs. in first gear? How far down in 4th gear? In 6th gear? Is there any car on earth that works the way MGPRS2 does? Is there any other driving sim. that does it this way? I am not saying it is undriveable or terrible--it's just stupid and unnecessary when a much more straightforward approach would work better and be more "natural." Marc.

On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:55:18 -0500, "Marc Collins"

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>I agree the set-up area is much better. But my point for those in this >group, who tend to care about these sorts of things (witness the gazillion >GPL messages), is that the physics have not been improved--just changed. If >I could get Papy to re-jig the grip levels and so forth in ICR2 or N2, I >would not call that improved physics the way I call GPL improved physics. >One is a change, perhaps for the better, the other is an improvement or an >advancement.

You know, whether changes are an improvement or not is kinda matter of taste :)... But fact is, the physics have been changed a lot, not just by manipulating the overall grip level. Try playing around with the toe-in, toe-out settings and you'll notice the difference. Sure it's not as drastical a change as Papyrus did with GPL, thank God :) -- Tel http://members.xoom.com/Tel33 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ a.k.a. Holger Bachert F1RS Cars & Design

not everyone wants to drive those beat up ol` grand prix car, some people prefer a good tank to protect ourselves

According to Ubi Soft, the physics have been improved and I felt it before I hit the first turn so I'm not sure about Marc's comments. Feels like a completely different sim from F1RS to me. I'm also not having the controller sensitivity problems (10%) he describes. The power comes on much smoother than F1RS. He's also having sound problems so maybe it's something with the way his system and the game work together. Marc, if you'd like, I have a setup for Monza for which enables me to exit the chicanes in first gear with no wheel spin at all. If I get just a chirp or two, I feel like I hit it just right. I have some other setups which are pretty good too. I'll send it on if you're interested and if you are still getting too much wheelspin, then at least you could start isolating the cause of your problems. David G Fisher >Summed up, the question is whether it's worth to pay for it or not. >IMO it definately is, since the amount of changes far exceeds what I >would expect from a 'patch'

Tel Just wanted to say your car set is fantastic. Thanks. David G Fisher

Thanks for the attempted help--please send me a good set-up if you have one--but I am not having any problems with excessive wheel spin. I can control the car just fine and agree that at first glance/first drive MGPRS2 seems like a big improvement over F1RS. That is, until you realise that the physics haven't been improved at all, but just tweaked to give the illusion of...something. Real car manufacturers do this too. My Honda Accord had about 75% of the power delivery/r.p.m.'s come on in the first third to half of the pedal movement. My Audi Quattro had a completely linear set-up--push the pedal half way, get half of the r.p.m.'s. It makes the car feel duller or less sprightly at first, but man is it way better over the long run to not be "tricked" into thinking you have more power left in the last half of the pedal travel than you really do. Do you experience what I do with gearing and r.p.m.'s on MGPRS2? When (in pedal travel %) do you hit maximum r.p.m.'s in first gear? Do you think that is appropriate or realistic? Yes, at first the cars seem more responsive and powerful than F1RS, but it is an illusion. The substantially greater cornering grip they dialled-in is a big improvement, I think, but as I have said, they could have easily made one or both of these changes to F1RS in any one of the many patches they released for that title. Marc. >According to Ubi Soft, the physics have been improved and I felt it before I >hit the first turn so I'm not sure about Marc's comments. Feels like a >completely different sim from F1RS to me. I'm also not having the controller

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>sensitivity problems (10%) he describes. The power comes on much smoother >than F1RS. He's also having sound problems so maybe it's something with the >way his system and the game work together. >Marc, if you'd like, I have a setup for Monza for which enables me to exit >the chicanes in first gear with no wheel spin at all. If I get just a chirp >or two, I feel like I hit it just right. I have some other setups which are >pretty good too. I'll send it on if you're interested and if you are still >getting too much wheelspin, then at least you could start isolating the >cause of your problems. >David G Fisher >>Summed up, the question is whether it's worth to pay for it or not. >>IMO it definately is, since the amount of changes far exceeds what I >>would expect from a 'patch'

Replying a few days late as I was out of town... >How far down do you have to hold the accelerator to max-out the revs. in >first gear? How far down in 4th gear? In 6th gear? Is there any car on >earth that works the way MGPRS2 does? I don't know if any car is quite as extreme in this as portrayed in MGPRS2, but I would guess so. Further, to obviously a lesser extent, I believe all cars are so, certainly mine is. Addressing your point a few ways: First, observationally. I got in my '94 Integra and gave it about 1/4-1/3 throttle travel. Revs slowly build up in 1st gear to redline. If I do it in second, maybe 5000 rpm; third, less; 6th, about 3000. Not as extreme as MGP certainly. But then again, I have 142 hp in a 2650 lb car. They've got 700+ in what, a 1200 lb car? Second, with physics. Let's assume that at a certain throttle pedal position, you get a certain fuel flow per rev, ie a certain torque level. Now, this probably isn't quite accurate, but probably a good first order assumption? (If you want, I can check this with the fuel injection guys I work with). That's engine torque. It is multiplied by the gear ratio to give wheel torque. Since your wheel has a fixed diameter, it translates to a certain wheel force. In a lower gear, you have more multiplication, thus a greate force to the road. Further you have less resistance force. Thus greater accel, ie tendencancy to build revs. Thus I believe it is perfectly natural that a given pedal position in different gears will result in a different maximum revs. Third, as I mentioned before, in MGP, if I set taller low gears, the problem is much lessened. As it should be be based on physics. Last, hypothetically. If you set your last gear taller, you won't reach maximum rpm. Actually, in your present car, you probably don't either. Thus full pedal travel does not equal max revs. Obviously, in first gear, it does. So, equal travel does not mean equal rpm. I just think that in day-to-day driving, we are so used to the motions that we instinctively compensate. I know I do. Put me in a 750hp monster, and I think I'd have to develope a considerably different set of instincts. Maybe not, but doesn't mean that it is wrong. I'm not sure "natural" really applies to this situation. Case in point: F1 cars are supposed to be incredibly hard to get going from a standstill. Certainly this doesn't apply to our natural, ie low power real-world cars. For an interesting read, I suggest the article in the Dec Car&Driver where one of their guys gets to drive a '94 Arrows F1 car. Bottom line, I find it hard to drive the MGP cars due to the problem you state. Yes, they could have made it easier. No, I don't know what is right. But I'm also sure your argument is not rigorously right either. regards, Dave

You have a 6 sp. Integra? How far down do you have to push the pedal in neutral to get redline r.p.m.'s? If you only need to push it 1/3 of the way in 1st gear, then you are experiencing the Japanese engineering I was referring to in my earlier post. My Accord was probably similar (but not that bad). A more serious "driver's" car like my Quattro would never be set-up with that sort of artificial-make-the-dummy-behind-the-wheel think he has a lot more power than he really does kind of accelerator pedal configuration. I just cannot believe that any engineer would set-up a monstrously over-powered go-cart with a pedeal set-up like that. The car would be so difficult to drive and to manage all that power with a "normal" pedal set-up. Reducing all of the power delivery to a fraction of the pedal travel available would just make thing needlessly more difficult. Marc.

>You have a 6 sp. Integra? Oops, I knew something was wrong when I heard all that grinding ;-) Sounds about right, but I don't know offhand...

I almost bought a new Quattro S4/S6 until I test drove one. I was looking forward to the huge advances in torque (about 270 lbs./ft. at 1800 rpm!!!!) compared to my older model, but with basically the same 5 cylinder turbo engine. Out on the highway, the thing was revving higher than my older model, even though the engine would have been happy idling. I looked up the stats. in my European auto books and realised that there the car comes with a 6 speed manual ***, but the egg-heads at Audi figured we N. Americans are too stupid to drive with the extra gear and only imported the 5 speed version--which wrecked the car's highway cruising mode. Honda's also rev. way too high at highway speed (as compared to what they could be revving), so I am sure you just instinctively reach for that next gear as you peel down the straight at Monza...err, your local expressway :) Marc. >>You have a 6 sp. Integra? >Oops, I knew something was wrong when I heard all that grinding ;-) >>How far down do you have to push the pedal in >>neutral to get redline r.p.m.'s? If you only need to push it 1/3 of the way >>in 1st gear, then you are experiencing the Japanese engineering I was >>referring to in my earlier post. >Sounds about right, but I don't know offhand...

>I almost bought a new Quattro S4/S6 until I test drove one. Nice to even contemplate throwing around the big $ on one of these :-) Personally, I'd probably go BMW 3-series. I have yet to drive a turbo I liked (I've driven MR2, Saabs, Eclipse/Talons). Maybe these new low-P variable nozzle types?? Hmmm. They didn't change the gearing or final drive? Perhaps it is due to the European autobahn top speed vs what they think is a "reasonable" top speed here? Do they speed govern the US model? Also, Europeans seem to favor high rev driving a lot more than we do. Yes, Hondas rev high. I don't mind it as much as I think the typical US driver does. But yes, I would like a taller, more relaxed highway gear. If/when I'm in that driving mode, I'm ready to sacrifice throttle response for pure cruisability. I picked the LS over the GSR (which obviously would appeal to the racer-enthusiast in me), partially due to the lower cruise rpm. But I do love it on accel and do miss that VTEC sound...