MS Force Feedback Wheel Question

Can someone who has the wheel let me know if it is possible to use on a desk that has a keyboard drawer.. None of the pictures I have seen show the clamping mechanism at all. Thanks.

Well, let me say that I have my keyboard on my lap as I type this... I have tried many wheels, and although "keyboard tray compatibility" isn't a primary concern, it is something I have always looked for...and have yet to find. The MS Wheel is very stable when mounted and very easy to mount--easier than my Nascar Pro which this is easing out of the picture. It is not, however, capable of sharing space with any keyboard tray I've ever seen. Sorry. Great wheel, though: I'd recommend buying it. On Fri, 6 Nov 1998 23:13:43 -0500, "Johm Smith" >Can someone who has the wheel let me know if it is possible to use on a desk >that has a keyboard drawer.. None of the pictures I have seen show the >clamping mechanism at all. >Thanks. -- Rick Worrell Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com]

My ECCI CDS2R stands firm without any clamps. When I don't use it I put it on a shelf behind my desk. The new CDS4000 can also do without clamps I believe. Not needing clamps will cost a lot of $$$ this way though. You will however get a very good wheel & pedal combo as a bonus ;-). Bart Westra Rick Worrell heeft geschreven in bericht

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>Well, let me say that I have my keyboard on my lap as I type this... >I have tried many wheels, and although "keyboard tray compatibility" >isn't a primary concern, it is something I have always looked >for...and have yet to find. >The MS Wheel is very stable when mounted and very easy to >mount--easier than my Nascar Pro which this is easing out of the >picture. It is not, however, capable of sharing space with any >keyboard tray I've ever seen. >Sorry. >Great wheel, though: I'd recommend buying it. >On Fri, 6 Nov 1998 23:13:43 -0500, "Johm Smith" >>Can someone who has the wheel let me know if it is possible to use on a

desk

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>>that has a keyboard drawer.. None of the pictures I have seen show the >>clamping mechanism at all. >>Thanks. >-- >Rick Worrell >Sports *** Network >[link lost in import: /***.com]

If any one would like a picture of the clamp just let me know I will e-mail it to you

Nope. I had to remove mine. Luckily, it's a two second job, but it's still a pain. Also, be advised that the MSFFW will not work with N2, and there is no way it ever will. Also, instead of using a serial port for the force-feedback commands, MS has chosen to use the actual midi signal lines built into the joystick port. This can be problematic for some people. The software (sidewinder 3.02) causes sound stuttering problems with my Creative Labs SoundBlaster 128/PCI. On the good side, the pedals are absolutely fantastic. The best pedals I've seen so far. The force-feedback works well. As well as the game designer allows it to work (Viper is awesome. NFS3 sucks). MTM2 is great when I can get thru a game without my Monster II card*** up on it. However, I decided it wasn't time for me to have one of these. I returned it today and bought a new TM Nascar SuperSport, which for $79 is the best buy in a wheel today (IMHO). It is much improved over the Nascar Pro, if your not a purist and don't mind paddles for gearshifts :) -Larry > Can someone who has the wheel let me know if it is possible to use on a desk > that has a keyboard drawer.. None of the pictures I have seen show the > clamping mechanism at all. > Thanks.

> Also, be advised that the MSFFW will not work with N2, and there is no > way it ever will. The MS Force Feedback wheel I tried worked just fine with Nascar2. Trips

What you do is take a large rectangular peice of wood or MDF and place that under the monitor and keyboard so that it juts out beyond the edge of the desk and attach a wheel to that. I've done this with a TSW and a Thrustmaster Formula 1. It works very well. Paul > Can someone who has the wheel let me know if it is possible to use on a desk > that has a keyboard drawer.. None of the pictures I have seen show the > clamping mechanism at all. > Thanks.

John Smith asked about: You should clamp the wheel to a dashboard not a "desk"! How could you race with a wheel on a desk?! If you find the keboard and drawer in the way just unhook the window netting and throw them into the stands. Beware...when I did this, I hit my elbow on the fire extinguiser! Good luck ;-)

> > Also, be advised that the MSFFW will not work with N2, and there is no > > way it ever will. > The MS Force Feedback wheel I tried worked just fine with Nascar2. Oh, please tell us, how? When I try to calibrate, the input jumps all over the place. While driving, the steering goes to the right in a big way, but there is almost no effect to the left. l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

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> > > Also, be advised that the MSFFW will not work with N2, and there is no > > > way it ever will. > > The MS Force Feedback wheel I tried worked just fine with Nascar2. > Oh, please tell us, how? When I try to calibrate, the input jumps all > over > the place. While driving, the steering goes to the right in a big way, > but > there is almost no effect to the left.

I'm not sure... I didn't do anything special. Ran N2 in a dos Window, it jsut worked. Trips

I don't see how.... The MSFFW is a digital device. Nascar 2 will not work with Digital controllers. MS says so, NROS says so, and so does Sierra. Since it would not work for me, I kinda too their word for it :) -Larry > The MS Force Feedback wheel I tried worked just fine with Nascar2. > Trips

Ditto... -Larry > Oh, please tell us, how? When I try to calibrate, the input jumps all > over > the place. While driving, the steering goes to the right in a big way, > but > there is almost no effect to the left.

Sure it can. When a write operation is detected to the game port (address 0x201), the DOS game is trying to charge the capacitors in the game card. The DOS game goes into a software timing loop reading the bits on the game port waiting for the capacitors to discharge. The digital controller pretends to be an analog device and resets the bits when an appropriate decay time has been reached. Technically, a VxD is involved in the above, but it is sometimes easier to conceptualize it if you think of the controller doing the delay. For most DOS games the above works pretty well. Papyrus tried to improve the efficiency of reading the port on Nascar 2. This threw off our VxD as well as a few other wheel's VxDs. I've met most of the wheel people out there and they all had some issues with N2. -Paul

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>I don't see how.... >The MSFFW is a digital device. Nascar 2 will not work with Digital >controllers. >MS says so, NROS says so, and so does Sierra. >Since it would not work for me, I kinda too their word for it :) >-Larry >> The MS Force Feedback wheel I tried worked just fine with Nascar2. >> Trips

Paul is quite right. Port 201 joystick read routines work by issuing an OUT to port 0x201, and then sit in a tight loop performing IN's on this port, looking for each axis' bit value to change. Simplistic port 201 routines just count the number of INs it takes for each axis to change. A slightly more sophisticated port 201 joystick reader will also disable interrupts during the read. Servicing interrupts during the read can lead to jumpy reads, so disabling interrupts is essential if you want your reads to be accurate. Up until the Rendition version of IndyCar Racing, Papyrus' joystick reader "counted the INs", and disabled interrupts. Unfortunately, the "counting the INs" method works poorly when there are bus mastering devices active in the system. Such devices (I bet you can guess one) can stall the processor, leading to intermittently lower "IN" counts than would be appropriate, and thus jumpy joystick reads. There's nothing we can do about a bus mastering card stealing cycles away from the CPU, so if we "count the INs" we'll have dicey reads. "Counting the INs" can also work rather poorly when the serial port is active if you haven't disabled interrupts, since the serial port interrupts will intermittently skew the IN count lower than it should be. You can disable interrupts during the joystick read, but this can cause loss of incoming data, and poor outgoing throughput on the serial port. Unless, of course, you put two-and-two together, and service the serial port directly while you have interrupts disabled. In the good old DOS days our joystick read routine did exactly that. It would disable interrupts, and it would service the serial port(s) in its loop. This gave us lossless incoming and kick-ass outgoing serial port throughput (_without_ a 16550 UART!), and accurate joystick reads. Unfortunately, this doesn't work unless you run the game by rebooting the machine into exclusive DOS mode (Windows "virtualizes" our request to disable interrupts - by not disabling them.) If we wanted to allow our NASCAR Racing 2 customers to play two- or multi-player games through a serial port while in Windows, and we wanted reasonably smooth joystick reads, we couldn't use the "counting the INs" method. So we abandoned "counting the INs" in favor of a more accurate method of measuring the passage of time. My guess is that these VxD's don't "reset the bits when an appropriate decay time has been reached", but, instead, reset the bits when some number of INs have been performed. So all the jumpiness we eliminated, these VxD's put right back in. Randy

Ok, Paul and Randy. Thanks for your responses... But... While we have to facinating and technical lessons here, neither one of them tells _us_ how to make _our_ MSFFW's work with Nascar 2. I've re-read them several times, and I don't see the answer. Your theories are nice, but they don't appear to work for us :) If your answer is to run Nascar 2 in DOS mode, that won't work for many, if not most of us, as we run NROS. NROS is a Win9x front-end, and can't be launced from DOS mode. So, the question still remains. How _does_ one get the MSFFW to work with Nascar 2. Everything I've read says it _cannot_ be done because the MSFFW is a digital device and that Nascar 2 does _not_ work with digital devices. If you have some sort of step-by-step plan to get around this issue, it would most certainly be appreciated. Thanks! -Larry

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> Sure it can. When a write operation is detected to the game port (address > 0x201), the DOS game is trying to charge the capacitors in the game card. > The DOS game goes into a software timing loop reading the bits on the game > port waiting for the capacitors to discharge. The digital controller > pretends to be an analog device and resets the bits when an appropriate > decay time has been reached. > Technically, a VxD is involved in the above, but it is sometimes easier to > conceptualize it if you think of the controller doing the delay. > For most DOS games the above works pretty well. Papyrus tried to improve > the efficiency of reading the port on Nascar 2. This threw off our VxD as > well as a few other wheel's VxDs. I've met most of the wheel people out > there and they all had some issues with N2. > -Paul > Paul is quite right. Port 201 joystick read routines work by issuing an > OUT to port 0x201, and then sit in a tight loop performing IN's on this > port, looking for each axis' bit value to change. Simplistic port 201 > routines just count the number of INs it takes for each axis to change. A > slightly more sophisticated port 201 joystick reader will also disable > interrupts during the read. Servicing interrupts during the read can lead > to jumpy reads, so disabling interrupts is essential if you want your reads > to be accurate. Up until the Rendition version of IndyCar Racing, Papyrus' > joystick reader "counted the INs", and disabled interrupts. > Unfortunately, the "counting the INs" method works poorly when there are > bus mastering devices active in the system. Such devices (I bet you can > guess one) can stall the processor, leading to intermittently lower "IN" > counts than would be appropriate, and thus jumpy joystick reads. There's > nothing we can do about a bus mastering card stealing cycles away from the > CPU, so if we "count the INs" we'll have dicey reads. > "Counting the INs" can also work rather poorly when the serial port is > active if you haven't disabled interrupts, since the serial port interrupts > will intermittently skew the IN count lower than it should be. You can > disable interrupts during the joystick read, but this can cause loss of > incoming data, and poor outgoing throughput on the serial port. Unless, of > course, you put two-and-two together, and service the serial port directly > while you have interrupts disabled. In the good old DOS days our joystick > read routine did exactly that. It would disable interrupts, and it would > service the serial port(s) in its loop. This gave us lossless incoming and > kick-ass outgoing serial port throughput (_without_ a 16550 UART!), and > accurate joystick reads. > Unfortunately, this doesn't work unless you run the game by rebooting the > machine into exclusive DOS mode (Windows "virtualizes" our request to > disable interrupts - by not disabling them.) If we wanted to allow our > NASCAR Racing 2 customers to play two- or multi-player games through a > serial port while in Windows, and we wanted reasonably smooth joystick > reads, we couldn't use the "counting the INs" method. > So we abandoned "counting the INs" in favor of a more accurate method of > measuring the passage of time. My guess is that these VxD's don't "reset > the bits when an appropriate decay time has been reached", but, instead, > reset the bits when some number of INs have been performed. So all the > jumpiness we eliminated, these VxD's put right back in. > Randy

> So, the question still remains. How _does_ one get the MSFFW to work > with Nascar 2. Everything I've read says it _cannot_ be done because > the MSFFW is a digital device and that Nascar 2 does _not_ work with > digital devices. This won't be of much help to you, but everything you've read is wrong if it suggests that the MSFF wheel can't work with Nascar2. Mine worked jsut fine, right from the first try. Only one problem... since mine never gave me a problem, I can't offer a solution, all I can do is state that it will indeed work in at least some cases. Trips

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>> So, the question still remains. How _does_ one get the MSFFW to work >> with Nascar 2. Everything I've read says it _cannot_ be done because >> the MSFFW is a digital device and that Nascar 2 does _not_ work with >> digital devices. >This won't be of much help to you, but everything you've read is wrong >if it suggests that the MSFF wheel can't work with Nascar2. Mine worked >jsut fine, right from the first try. >Only one problem... since mine never gave me a problem, I can't offer a >solution, all I can do is state that it will indeed work in at least >some cases. >Trips

It doesn't work for me either. I have tried booting straight to DOS running in Win98, running in a DOS box, reinstalling it in Win98 and in a Win98 DOS box, nothing works for me. -- Sean Black

Sean, this just occurred to me, as I can't get it to work either: Attention people who have N2 working with MS FF: are you running Win95 or Win98? Maybe Win98 does a DOS box a little differently. Just a thought, but anything's possible. On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:26:48 +0000, Sean Black

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>>> So, the question still remains. How _does_ one get the MSFFW to work >>> with Nascar 2. Everything I've read says it _cannot_ be done because >>> the MSFFW is a digital device and that Nascar 2 does _not_ work with >>> digital devices. >>This won't be of much help to you, but everything you've read is wrong >>if it suggests that the MSFF wheel can't work with Nascar2. Mine worked >>jsut fine, right from the first try. >>Only one problem... since mine never gave me a problem, I can't offer a >>solution, all I can do is state that it will indeed work in at least >>some cases. >>Trips >It doesn't work for me either. I have tried booting straight to DOS >running in Win98, running in a DOS box, reinstalling it in Win98 and in >a Win98 DOS box, nothing works for me.

-- Rick Worrell Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com]

>Sean, this just occurred to me, as I can't get it to work either: >Attention people who have N2 working with MS FF: are you running Win95 >or Win98? Maybe Win98 does a DOS box a little differently. >Just a thought, but anything's possible. Correct. It is also why MS is in court :-) I too am interested in whether people using the MS-FF wheel with N2 or NR1999 are using W95 or W98. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

I really don't understand this at all :) Everything I have read everywhere says that Nascar 2 will NOT work with a digital device. Are you, by chance, running N2 in DOS mode instead of under Win9x? -Larry

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> This won't be of much help to you, but everything you've read is wrong > if it suggests that the MSFF wheel can't work with Nascar2. Mine worked > jsut fine, right from the first try. > Only one problem... since mine never gave me a problem, I can't offer a > solution, all I can do is state that it will indeed work in at least > some cases. > Trips

Even if this was the case, it wouldn't help me, and I bet a lot of other folks that run NROS. We can't run N2 in DOS mode because the TEN client software is Win9x based... -Larry > Sean, this just occurred to me, as I can't get it to work either: > Attention people who have N2 working with MS FF: are you running Win95 > or Win98? Maybe Win98 does a DOS box a little differently. > Just a thought, but anything's possible.

Nascar 1999 is fine _if_ you are running the Win9x version. If you try the DOS version, the same issue with the wheel exists. What we need is some sort of utility to intercept the digital signals and report them as analog to Sierra's joystick driver in N2. -Larry > Correct. It is also why MS is in court :-) I too am interested in > whether people using the MS-FF wheel with N2 or NR1999 > are using W95 or W98.

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> I really don't understand this at all :) > Everything I have read everywhere says that Nascar 2 will NOT work with > a digital device. > Are you, by chance, running N2 in DOS mode instead of under Win9x? > -Larry

As I understand someones kind explanation, to work through the standard game port, the digital device must pretend to be analog. Which is horrendously perverse ;) - Matt

Anyone know how to do this? -Larry

I'm running it via Win95. I'm not rebooting to DOS if that's what you mean. I just hit the Start button and pick Nascar2 from the Siueera group. Trips

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> I really don't understand this at all :) > Everything I have read everywhere says that Nascar 2 will NOT work with > a digital device. > Are you, by chance, running N2 in DOS mode instead of under Win9x? > -Larry > > This won't be of much help to you, but everything you've read is wrong > > if it suggests that the MSFF wheel can't work with Nascar2. Mine worked > > jsut fine, right from the first try. > > Only one problem... since mine never gave me a problem, I can't offer a > > solution, all I can do is state that it will indeed work in at least > > some cases. > > Trips

You are the only person on the planet that has this working... I still have to ask _what_ you have done to make the MSFFW work with Nascar Racing 2, a DOS based game, that no one else has had any sucess with? Do you have some sort of funky Gameport/Sound Card that converts digital to analog? -Larry > I'm running it via Win95. I'm not rebooting to DOS if that's what you mean. I > just hit the Start button and pick Nascar2 from the Siueera group. > Trips

>I really don't understand this at all :) I believe that. N2/NR1999 (DOS version) works just fine with a MS-FF wheel. And as Trips said it worked on the first try. The Wheel is a WIndows 95/98 native device which runs within a W95/98 DOS box. Do you not understand what this means? -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com >-Larry >> This won't be of much help to you, but everything you've read is wrong >> if it suggests that the MSFF wheel can't work with Nascar2. Mine worked >> jsut fine, right from the first try. >> Only one problem... since mine never gave me a problem, I can't offer a >> solution, all I can do is state that it will indeed work in at least >> some cases. >> Trips

>Nascar 1999 is fine _if_ you are running the Win9x version. If you try >the DOS version, the same issue with the wheel exists. Well maybe you can come over to my house and show me how to***up my setup so the wheel won't work with the DOS version. As I said it works fine. Why? -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

>As I understand someones kind explanation, >to work through the standard game port, the >digital device must pretend to be analog. >Which is horrendously perverse ;) Absolutely correct. When I went to calibrate the MS-FF wheel in NR1998 the numbers looked screwed. (625-1058) and were jittering. However it did work. Does it work flawlessly? Nope. But it does work. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

>You are the only person on the planet that has this working... Wrong. Do not boot into DOS. Run from within a DOS box. Trips has it working with W95 and I have it working in W98. The wheel already comes with a profile for N2 which works in NR1998. So you can hit some F keys and shift gears with the paddles. All in all it does work fine. I am finding I like the wheel better in NR1998 than in F1RS so I may return it. But as for working in N2. It does. I ran it for about 1.25 hours a little while ago. No problem. Also I have it plugged into my Soundcard. Not quite. There is no magic. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

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> >You are the only person on the planet that has this working... > Wrong. > >I still have to ask _what_ you have done to make the MSFFW work with > >Nascar Racing 2, a DOS based game, that no one else has had any sucess > >with? > Do not boot into DOS. Run from within a DOS box. Trips has it working > with W95 and I have it working in W98. The wheel already comes with > a profile for N2 which works in NR1998. So you can hit some F keys and > shift gears with the paddles. All in all it does work fine. I am finding I > like the wheel better in NR1998 than in F1RS so I may return it. But > as for working in N2. It does. I ran it for about 1.25 hours a little while > ago. No problem. Also I have it plugged into my Soundcard. > >Do you have some sort of funky Gameport/Sound Card that converts digital > >to analog? > Not quite. There is no magic.

Nothing special in my systems either. Plain CH Gameport in one, and a soundcard gameport in the other. I think the key is to NOT boot to DOS. I don't think any digital devices will work in pure DOS mode. In a Win95 (or 98) DOS BOX tho, it ought to just work. It does here. Trips

Yes, yes. I fully understand what this means... What I don't understand is: a. Why two people here are able to get it to work b. Why a whole lot more people _can't_ get it to work c. Why the attitudes? I am happy that you two are able to get it working. I really am... However, don't get so damned rightous with those of us that _can't_ get it to work, or treat us like we're idiots. Please... -Larry > The Wheel is a WIndows 95/98 native device which runs within a W95/98 > DOS box. Do you not understand what this means?

>Yes, yes. I fully understand what this means... >What I don't understand is: >a. Why two people here are able to get it to work "Work" for me is becoming less and less acceptable. Because after reading the Soundcard comatibility file which come with the controller, I now understand that DOS support is very iffy. You cannot even find any info on setting up DOS games with this wheel. Because the very first time I tried running the game it worked fine even though the numbers were jittery. Now I find that the calibration is a ***shoot. My apologies, I'll probably be returning this turkey :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

I don't know if this will clarify or confuse the situation, but I have a MS Sidewinder 3D Joystick, which is also a digital device. The paperwork with it says it functions as a digital device in Windows and as an analog device in DOS. I don't have N99 yet, but I do have NAscar 2 (the DOS version), and it works great running in a full screen dos 'box' from within Win98. It worked in Win95 and all of its revisions, too. It also worked fine with my SB AWE32PnP, and it still works great with my new SB Live! Value. If you get the Joystick or wheel or whatever installed in the Windows control panel Joystick applet, it will work in any and all Windows environments no matter if it is digital or analog. Windows is catching the input and passing it to the game. If you want to have it work in reboot dos mode, you have to have the drivers for whatever you have it plugged into load in the config.sys and/or dosstart.bat. I never tried this joystick with my Thrustmaster ACM game card, but disabling the joystick port on the SB AWE32 so the ACM would be recognized in device manager allowed my broken piece of ***analog Thrustmaster T2 to work in DOS, boxed DOS and Native Windows, also. Hope it helped? daxe ---== http://www.newsfeeds.com - Largest Usenet Server In The World! ==--- ---== http://www.newsfeeds.com - Largest Usenet Server In The World! ==---

No sweat :) I do appreciate you're trying to help :) -Larry > My apologies, I'll probably be returning this turkey :-)

Have you tried calling Sierra or Microsoft??? I called Sierra yesterday, and I'll be calling MS today. I'll post my results later today. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com >No sweat :) I do appreciate you're trying to help :) >-Larry >> My apologies, I'll probably be returning this turkey :-)

I wish I could remember where (I think it was buried on Sierra or Sierra Sports Web Site somewhere), but I read a Faq that stated outright that N2 would not work with Digital Joysticks or Controllers. It explicitly noted Nascar Racing 2. Is it possible that some sound cards have a feature that gets around this by converting the digital devices signals to analog before passing them on to the programs? I use a SoundBlaster 128/PCI. -Larry > Have you tried calling Sierra or Microsoft??? I called Sierra > yesterday, and I'll be calling MS today. I'll post my results > later today.

>I wish I could remember where (I think it was buried on Sierra or Sierra >Sports Web Site somewhere), but I read a Faq that stated outright that >N2 would not work with Digital Joysticks or Controllers. It explicitly >noted Nascar Racing 2. I believe this is correct. Frankly I don't know. I do know that in the end I returned the wheel :-) I have a SB PCI 64 (audioPCI). -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

>I don't know if this will clarify or confuse the situation, but I have a MS >Sidewinder 3D Joystick, which is also a digital device. The paperwork with >it says it functions as a digital device in Windows and as an analog device >in DOS. Yes that is the claim. In that case you can consider yourself lucky. Also for clarification, when you calibrate joystick #1 in the N2 calib routine, the carat symbols for both axis are stable? Mine were jittering all over the place and not stable at all. As far as I can tell this is the main complaint people are having. I guess if you tell me you are getting stable joystick readings, I'll be surprised. Or maybe the MS FF joystick has different electronics than the FF wheel. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

Only as far as DirectX (DirectInput) is concerned. Only games that use DirectX (DirectInput) work like this. DOS games get their input in an entirely different manner. -Larry > If you get > the Joystick or wheel or whatever installed in the Windows control panel > Joystick applet, it will work in any and all Windows environments no matter > if it is digital or analog. Windows is catching the input and passing it to > the game.

Thanks for the tips... I also have an ACM, but we can't use that with the MSFFW. Microsoft decided to use the Midi signal lines instead of serial or USB lines for the Force-Feedback information, and as far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), the ACM does not process Midi signals. This ain't over yet. There are still a few mystery folks out there that say this work, though no one has provided any info as to exactly _how_ it works for them. Then there's the documentation that says it's impossible. Quite a pickle, huh? :) -Larry > I never tried this joystick with my Thrustmaster ACM game card, but > disabling the joystick port on the SB AWE32 so the ACM would be recognized > in device manager allowed my broken piece of ***analog Thrustmaster T2 to > work in DOS, boxed DOS and Native Windows, also. > Hope it helped?

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> Thanks for the tips... > I also have an ACM, but we can't use that with the MSFFW. Microsoft > decided to use the Midi signal lines instead of serial or USB lines for > the Force-Feedback information, and as far as I know (please correct me > if I'm wrong), the ACM does not process Midi signals. > This ain't over yet. There are still a few mystery folks out there that > say this work, though no one has provided any info as to exactly _how_ > it works for them.

Someone just posted a few days ago about a patch cord or adapter that would allow you to tie the midi output from a souncard game port into a dedicated gameport like the ACM. They said they called MS technical support directly, and the part was sent to them. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

I do not believe the MSFFW is dual-personality. I'm pretty sure it is pure digital only. -Larry > I don't have N99 yet, but I do have NAscar 2 (the DOS version), and it works > great running in a full screen dos 'box' from within Win98.

>Thanks for the tips... >I also have an ACM, but we can't use that with the MSFFW. Microsoft >decided to use the Midi signal lines instead of serial or USB lines for >the Force-Feedback information, and as far as I know (please correct me >if I'm wrong), the ACM does not process Midi signals. You can call MS and request an adapter which will allow you to plug the wheel into the Serial port. I would seriously check that out and get back to us. It may just fix the problem. Or certainly have a good shot at fixing the problem especially since you are effectively using a different game port. I almost had one sent to me to check out, but I really did not like the paddle positions and want to check the other FF wheels coming on the market. I am sure that if people are getting to work (meaning a stable carat in the calib routine) it is by pure accident. The only alternative is to try different hardware. In this case the Serial port with the adapter which MS will send you if you call an ask. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

>Only as far as DirectX (DirectInput) is concerned. Only games that use >DirectX (DirectInput) work like this. Correct. If you run your game from a DOS box, it should use whatever joystick you have configured in the Windows Control Panel. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com >-Larry >> If you get >> the Joystick or wheel or whatever installed in the Windows control panel >> Joystick applet, it will work in any and all Windows environments no matter >> if it is digital or analog. Windows is catching the input and passing it to >> the game.