Online 24hr race--what rules?<survey>

Our TPTCC league mailing list has been discussing Endurance racing, so I thought I'd take some of the load off the list and start a discussion here. We have the ability now to run longer races online with Nascar 2k3. But so far all I have seen is two drivers sharing a car and making one driver swap. In real Endurance racing, even in the 3 hour events in Europe and America, the drivers often make mulitiple driver changes. Often driver A starting an event, then driver B taking over before giving way back to driver A for the finish. And the 12/24 hour events swap drivers every couple of hours or even every pitstop. I wonder then, what kind of rules would appeal to online racers. I'd like to see some format that encourages multiple driver changes. The idea of racing for an hour or two then comming back several hours later is more appealing to me than me driving 4 hours then handing off to my teamate for 4 hours. To spur pitstops, I would probably consider upping the fuel and tire wear, Not dramatically but 2x fuel/tire setting in nr2k3 would probably run a tank dry in just less than a half hour. And then, of course, mandating driver swaps every hour or so. If YOU were hosting a 6 or 12 hour race, what rules would you like and/or which rules would you oppose? dave henrie

Dave Henrie wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> Our TPTCC league mailing list has been discussing Endurance > racing, so I > thought I'd take some of the load off the list and start a > discussion here. > > We have the ability now to run longer races online with Nascar > 2k3. But > so far all I have seen is two drivers sharing a car and making one > driver swap. In real Endurance racing, even in the 3 hour events > in Europe and America, the drivers often make mulitiple driver > changes. Often driver A starting an event, then driver B taking > over before giving way back to driver A for the finish. And the > 12/24 hour events swap drivers every couple of hours or even every > pitstop. > > I wonder then, what kind of rules would appeal to online > racers. I'd > like to see some format that encourages multiple driver changes. > The idea of racing for an hour or two then comming back several > hours later is more appealing to me than me driving 4 hours then > handing off to my teamate for 4 hours. > To spur pitstops, I would probably consider upping the fuel and > tire > wear, Not dramatically but 2x fuel/tire setting in nr2k3 would > probably run a tank dry in just less than a half hour. And then, > of course, mandating driver swaps every hour or so. > > If YOU were hosting a 6 or 12 hour race, what rules would you > like > and/or which rules would you oppose? > > dave henrie >

Well, I'd like the option to change drivers *more* frequently, but I'd set a maximum length of time -- and/or a maximum amount of fuel allowed to a driver before a change is mandated. They can change sooner, but they must not change later. Speaking of which, _how_ do you tell that there is a new driver? Do the drivers have to share the same computer and the same driver name (as far as the game is concerned), or is there a way to have two drivers on separate computers share the car? (The latter would open up all kinds of possibilities! I could hire a ringer from some other country. Pay him in Canadian beer or something.) Would you want to enforce some kind of minimum total time for each driver? I'm thinking of the case where A is faster than B. Driver A does a full stint and B takes over. B does a few laps and hands back over to A, who does a full stint. Repeat until end of race. You could enforce a minimum total driving time and still let people take shorter runs; it's just that they would both have to take the shorter turns. I was kind of thinking that you could have a rule to the effect that no one driver would but in more than X percent than any other driver on the team. This would allow for 3 or 4 driver teams (for those of us with severe attention deficit syndrome.) You wouldn't have to mandate x hours if there were 2 and Y hours of there were 3 and Z hours of there were 4..., just no one driver to have more than 20% more time than any other driver. But what if you run into a team that has two drivers who _like_ long runs? You like shorter runs, but they like longer runs? As long as they divvy up the time evenly, does it really matter? (I know, I'm being difficult. <g>) All the best, -- Darryl

In article <[email hidden]>, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> writes:

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> Our TPTCC league mailing list has been discussing Endurance racing, so I >thought I'd take some of the load off the list and start a discussion here. > > We have the ability now to run longer races online with Nascar 2k3. But >so far all I have seen is two drivers sharing a car and making one driver >swap. In real Endurance racing, even in the 3 hour events in Europe and >America, the drivers often make mulitiple driver changes. Often driver A >starting an event, then driver B taking over before giving way back to >driver A for the finish. And the 12/24 hour events swap drivers every >couple of hours or even every pitstop. > > I wonder then, what kind of rules would appeal to online racers. I'd >like to see some format that encourages multiple driver changes. The idea >of racing for an hour or two then comming back several hours later is more >appealing to me than me driving 4 hours then handing off to my teamate for >4 hours. > To spur pitstops, I would probably consider upping the fuel and tire >wear, Not dramatically but 2x fuel/tire setting in nr2k3 would probably run >a tank dry in just less than a half hour. And then, of course, mandating >driver swaps every hour or so. > > If YOU were hosting a 6 or 12 hour race, what rules would you like >and/or which rules would you oppose?

You'd have to have some way for the teamed drivers to communicate to coordinate the swaps(TeamSpeak? PalTalk?). Phone calls might get expensive, and you can't exactly answer the phone while you're driving. Sure, you could synchronize watches, and say switch every hour. But things happen(life) that could interfere. Or, if my co-driver was in a 'groove' and turning great laps, I might be inclined to let him finish the fuel load before the swap. I would oppose mandatory driver swaps. If some crazy wants to drive several hours by himself, he should have that option. And don't say no one would do it. The IICC league ran a 1000km race at Nurburgring(GPL). That was 44 laps, and the total race time was about 5 + hours...<g> I got discoed about 8 laps from the end. Grrrr..... Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]: > ... > If YOU were hosting a 6 or 12 hour race, what rules would you like > and/or which rules would you oppose? > > dave henrieI don't think you need to make any special rules. All your concerns are resolved naturally. Basically, it is beneficial to change drivers at reasonable intervals (maybe every 2 hours or even sooner). In the IICC's 1000km of the 'Ring, even such aliens as Michiel Pompert had hard time toward the end, and at that stage much slower, but fresh driver would do better job, besides it would let the alien rest, so he could drive faster in the next stint. AFAIR nobody of those who drove alone was driving very well at the end. (and there's was a bunch of otherwise fast and consistent drivers). Of course, there's a possibility that some team may benefit from the asymmetric schedule, like 2 hours stint by the fast driver, 1 hour by the slow one, 2 hours by the fast, 1 by the slow etc, but it's hard to judge how fast drivers will be able to rest. In this case the fast driver would have to drive 2/3 of the race, 4 hours out of 6 sounds acceptable, but 16 out of 24 is probably very hard. I'm not how much fuel you can pick up in NR, but I guess you'll need at least about the same frequency of stops. Alex.

You might want to consider Skype for talking. Only 5 people can partyline chat at the same time but voice quality is unsurpassed. It is better than using the phone. http://ui.skype.com/download.html Pete "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, DaveHenrie > <[email hidden]> writes: >> > You'd have to have some way for the teamed drivers to communicate tocoordinate > the swaps(TeamSpeak? PalTalk?). Phone calls might get expensive, and you > can't exactly answer the phone while you're driving. Sure, you could > synchronize watches, and say switch every hour. But things happen(life)that > could interfere. Or, if my co-driver was in a 'groove' and turning greatlaps, > I might be inclined to let him finish the fuel load before the swap. > > I would oppose mandatory driver swaps. If some crazy wants to driveseveral > hours by himself, he should have that option. And don't say no one woulddo > it. The IICC league ran a 1000km race at Nurburgring(GPL). That was 44laps,

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> and the total race time was about 5 + hours...<g> > I got discoed about 8 laps from the end. Grrrr..... > > Eldred > -- > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Screamers League > IICC League > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > Hist. +82.34 MoH:na > N2k3 rank:in progress > Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin > Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro > US East

> You might want to consider Skype for talking. Only 5 people can >partyline chat at the same time but voice quality is unsurpassed. It >is better than using the phone. > >http://ui.skype.com/download.html > Thanks for the suggestion. Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

>I don't think you need to make any special rules. All your concerns >are resolved naturally. Basically, it is beneficial to change drivers >at reasonable intervals (maybe every 2 hours or even sooner). In the >IICC's 1000km of the 'Ring, even such aliens as Michiel Pompert had >hard time toward the end, Of course, we *would* both mention the same event. It's all El Jefe's fault...<g> Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

> If YOU were hosting a 6 or 12 hour race, what rules would you like > and/or which rules would you oppose? > Assuming you're talking about multiple drivers sharing the same PC and changing during the pit stop then I agree with whoever said you wouldn't need to enforce changes. You'd have to switch when somebody gets tired/hungry anyway. I don't think you'd have to up tire wear, as over a 6 - 12 hour period you'd have to make a number of stops anyway. If the faster team mate wants to drive more stints then the slow one (and the slow guy is OK with that), then so what, he runs the risk of making a fatigue mistake. If I were to join such a race (after my divorce of course) I'd like to see the damage set so that a silly mistake didn't totally eliminate you 30 minutes into a 12 hour race (in real endurance racing even a destroyed gearbox is repairable but not in NR.), sure you may have to pay a penalty in pit time, but for a fun event there's no fun if your team mate has wrecked the car on you. Of course that might mean a minimum driving standard to ensure it doesn't become demolition derby. If you're talking about two drivers each using their own PC and have them appear as 1 single car to the race server, then I don't know how you'd do it with the present sims out there . However I'd often thought about a 2 hour race and the winner be determined by combining the times of each "team" of two cars. Sort of a virtual 4 hour enduro but with each of the drivers stints occurring in parallel.

Ya, once you elongate races to real length I wouldn't monkey about with Tire wear and fuel usage, there should be plenty of stops. Then I'd say use real life rules. ie max time any one driver can do and let them split it up however the want. What is the answer of whether two drivers can share one car on two different computers. Pretty sure that's not the case. Would be dynamite if that were the case it's always been my dream. Even SCGT lets you hand off to an AI Co-Driver. Always thought that was a neat feature that no one else ever explored. (Just thinking is everyone sure that's not buried somewhere in the code of ISI's F1 sims?) That and mid race saves, only ever available on LeMans24Hrs and IRL two of the worst games ever. Rudeboy

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> > > > Well, I'd like the option to change drivers *more* frequently, but > I'd set a maximum length of time -- and/or a maximum amount of fuel > allowed to a driver before a change is mandated. They can change > sooner, but they must not change later. > > Speaking of which, _how_ do you tell that there is a new driver? Do > the drivers have to share the same computer and the same driver name > (as far as the game is concerned), or is there a way to have two > drivers on separate computers share the car? (The latter would open > up all kinds of possibilities! I could hire a ringer from some other > country. Pay him in Canadian beer or something.) > > Would you want to enforce some kind of minimum total time for each > driver? I'm thinking of the case where A is faster than B. Driver A > does a full stint and B takes over. B does a few laps and hands back > over to A, who does a full stint. Repeat until end of race. > > You could enforce a minimum total driving time and still let people > take shorter runs; it's just that they would both have to take the > shorter turns. I was kind of thinking that you could have a rule to > the effect that no one driver would but in more than X percent than > any other driver on the team. This would allow for 3 or 4 driver > teams (for those of us with severe attention deficit syndrome.) You > wouldn't have to mandate x hours if there were 2 and Y hours of there > were 3 and Z hours of there were 4..., just no one driver to have > more than 20% more time than any other driver. > > But what if you run into a team that has two drivers who _like_ long > runs? You like shorter runs, but they like longer runs? As long as > they divvy up the time evenly, does it really matter? (I know, I'm > being difficult. <g>) > > All the best, > -- > Darryl

In article <skM3c.764671$ts4.326911@pd7tw3no>, "Rudeboy" <[email hidden]> writes: >What is the answer of whether two drivers can share one car on two different >computers. Pretty sure that's not the case. Yes, you can... Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (mcewena) writes: >If you're talking about two drivers each using their own PC and have >them appear as 1 single car to the race server, then I don't know how >you'd do it with the present sims out there . However I'd often >thought about a 2 hour race and the winner be determined by combining >the times of each "team" of two cars. Sort of a virtual 4 hour enduro >but with each of the drivers stints occurring in parallel. N2k3 has features that would let 2 different drivers drive the same car, even if they're across the country from each other. Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:07:20 GMT, "Rudeboy" <[email hidden]> wrote: >That and mid race saves, only ever available on >LeMans24Hrs and IRL two of the worst games ever. Actually GP1 did mid-race saves quite nicely (modem link), and even allowed a multiplayer season. Buddy and I used to run every Sunday night and track points over an entire GP season. Was great fun in the days that GP1 was the hottest thing going.

"Rudeboy" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:skM3c.764671$ts4.326911@pd7tw3no: > What is the answer of whether two drivers can share one car on two > different computers. Pretty sure that's not the case With Nr2k3 you can. In fact SEVERAL drivers can all share the same car (not at once mind you) during a race. Even if they are located on different continents. It takes a little work to get the car file squared away, but anyone can team up with others and race with the programs we currently have. Folks have already run fairly long races with driver swapping. One thing I've seen so far is most people limit their thinking to just TWO DRIVERS. Why not 4? I'd like to drive early in the morning. go to work, come back and take over from teammate # 3 or #4 8 or ten hours later. Flexibiity and challenge combined. dave henrie

[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote in news:[email hidden]: > N2k3 has features that would let 2 different drivers drive the same > car, even if they're across the country from each other. > > Eldred > -- 2 drivers, or 3 drivers or any possible number of teammates you could aquire. (the drive-a-lap-then-pit-and-hand-off-to-another-teamate-1000!) dave henrie

The one reason I'd mandate a minimun number of driver changes, is that it takes about a minute to disconect and then get the new driver back to the track. So we'd have to have a certain number of forced changes just to give larger teams a fair shake. Otherwise, two guys 'could' gut out a couple of long sessions and gain possibly several laps advantage.(depending upon the track length) dave henrie

> One thing I've seen so far is most people limit their thinking to just > TWO DRIVERS. Why not 4? I'd like to drive early in the morning. go to > work, come back and take over from teammate # 3 or #4 8 or ten hourslater. > Flexibiity and challenge combined. I think the logistics of getting a 20 car field with 40 drivers at the same time will prove to be enough of a challenge ;) But obviously there's no reason to limit a team to 2. I like the idea of 2 (or more) guys using the same PC (wheel pedal etc..), it's simpler then jumping thru hoops with car files and it's more like shareing real equipment as you would in a real enduro. Obviously if you live in Canada and want to team up withsomebody in Italy that's a problem...

No challenge at all to get that many people I know that at SSCA we are getting ready to run a 6 hours of Daytona race and we have about 80 people signed up for it. (www.sscaracing.com under the TransAM Section www.sscaracing.com/ta) Darin Gangi is the one heading it up along with Gilles Mourette (I am just doing the website coding for it) As far as being in different locations, it is not really an issue. As long as all the drivers have the same car file (Well they should, since everyone will down load the car files before the race) and they use the same DriverID, there is no issue "Art McEwen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:caQ3c.6109$[email hidden]... > > One thing I've seen so far is most people limit their thinking tojust > > TWO DRIVERS. Why not 4? I'd like to drive early in the morning. go to > > work, come back and take over from teammate # 3 or #4 8 or ten hours > later. > > Flexibiity and challenge combined. > > I think the logistics of getting a 20 car field with 40 drivers at thesame

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> time will prove to be enough of a challenge ;) But obviously there's no > reason to limit a team to 2. > > I like the idea of 2 (or more) guys using the same PC (wheel pedal etc..), > it's simpler then jumping thru hoops with car files and it's more like > shareing > real equipment as you would in a real enduro. Obviously if you live in > Canada and want to team up withsomebody in Italy that's a problem... > > >

Awesome! Count me in. This is EXACTLY what I've been waiting for to get me back into serious simming :) "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <skM3c.764671$ts4.326911@pd7tw3no>, "Rudeboy"<[email hidden]> > writes: > > >What is the answer of whether two drivers can share one car on twodifferent > >computers. Pretty sure that's not the case. > > Yes, you can... >

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Our TPTCC league mailing list has been discussing Endurance racing, soI > thought I'd take some of the load off the list and start a discussionhere. > > We have the ability now to run longer races online with Nascar 2k3.But

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> so far all I have seen is two drivers sharing a car and making one driver > swap. In real Endurance racing, even in the 3 hour events in Europe and > America, the drivers often make mulitiple driver changes. Often driver A > starting an event, then driver B taking over before giving way back to > driver A for the finish. And the 12/24 hour events swap drivers every > couple of hours or even every pitstop. > > I wonder then, what kind of rules would appeal to online racers. I'd > like to see some format that encourages multiple driver changes. The idea > of racing for an hour or two then comming back several hours later is more > appealing to me than me driving 4 hours then handing off to my teamate for > 4 hours.

I see no need for rules here. And more importantly, it allows greater flexibility within the team so that all drivers, possibly from all over the world, can fit driving in with the rest of their lives. > To spur pitstops, I would probably consider upping the fuel and tire > wear, Not dramatically but 2x fuel/tire setting in nr2k3 would probablyrun > a tank dry in just less than a half hour. And then, of course, mandating > driver swaps every hour or so. More fuel for sure. As for tyres that last longer (harder compound), I think this should only be done if it can be accompanied by a proportionate loss of grip. As stated above, I don't like the idea of any "mandatory" driver changes. > > If YOU were hosting a 6 or 12 hour race, what rules would you like > and/or which rules would you oppose? > No rules at all, apart from the usual stuff. Everyone races for 6, 12 or 24 hours and the one with the most laps at those times is the winner. Simple as that! :)

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] (mcewena) writes: > > >If you're talking about two drivers each using their own PC and have > >them appear as 1 single car to the race server, then I don't know how > >you'd do it with the present sims out there . However I'd often > >thought about a 2 hour race and the winner be determined by combining > >the times of each "team" of two cars. Sort of a virtual 4 hour enduro > >but with each of the drivers stints occurring in parallel. > > N2k3 has features that would let 2 different drivers drive the same car,

even > if they're across the country from each other. > What about the damage issue?

In article <[email hidden]>, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> writes: > One thing I've seen so far is most people limit their thinking to just >TWO DRIVERS. Why not 4? I'd like to drive early in the morning. go to >work, come back and take over from teammate # 3 or #4 8 or ten hours later. >Flexibiity and challenge combined. Need a teammate? :-) With 3 hours difference between our timezones, that might actually work pretty well... Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

In article <404fe0fa$0$15134$[email hidden]>, "B Forbes" <[email hidden]> writes: >As stated above, I don't like the idea of any "mandatory" >driver changes. I thought *I* was the only one who thought that way...<g> Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

In article <[email hidden]>, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> writes:

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>[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote in >news:[email hidden]: > >> N2k3 has features that would let 2 different drivers drive the same >> car, even if they're across the country from each other. >> >> Eldred >> -- > > 2 drivers, or 3 drivers or any possible number of teammates you could >aquire. (the drive-a-lap-then-pit-and-hand-off-to-another-teamate-1000!) >

Well, yeah - the same method could be used to have more than two drivers. But I was just explaining that it WAS possible to share a car... :-) Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

In article <[email hidden]>, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> writes: > The one reason I'd mandate a minimun number of driver changes, is that >it takes about a minute to disconect and then get the new driver back to >the track. So we'd have to have a certain number of forced changes just to >give larger teams a fair shake. Otherwise, two guys 'could' gut out a >couple of long sessions and gain possibly several laps advantage.(depending >upon the track length) Exactly. Sometimes us slow guys NEED that type of advantage... Plus, if I'm willing to run a six hour race by myself, or if I simply *don't* have a co-driver, why shouldn't I be allowed to compete as well? Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

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>> N2k3 has features that would let 2 different drivers drive the same car, > even >> if they're across the country from each other. >> > > What about the damage issue? > > >

Damage is an issue. some on our TPTCC mailing list want zero damage. But dangit...this is an endurance event. Winning is often secondary to surviving. (of course I abhor restarts too.--go figure) dave henrie

> Damage is an issue. some on our TPTCC mailing list want zero damage. > But dangit...this is an endurance event. Winning is often secondary to > surviving. (of course I abhor restarts too.--go figure) > No-damage is un-realistic, but un-repairable damage is undesirable in an enduro event. I don't minde paying say a 10 minute penalty in the pits if I go off the track in some stupid manner (or even get caught in somebody elses wreck), but I don't want to go out in a lap 1 incident of a 6 hour race. Sometimes NR will let you call for a tow and other times not. If one of the mod teams would look at making that more tailorable.....

Really? How is this done ? -Larry "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] (mcewena) writes: > N2k3 has features that would let 2 different drivers drive the same car,even

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> if they're across the country from each other. > > Eldred > -- > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Screamers League > IICC League > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > Hist. +82.34 MoH:na > N2k3 rank:in progress > Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin > Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro > US East

Larry wrote: > > Really? How is this done ? You use the feature that allows you to reconnect to a server you've been disconnected from by accident, except that in this case you pit, wait for your actual pit stop to finish, unplug your internet connection to force a disco, call your team mate and let him know you've disco'ed and he reconnects using the same ID as you did, as well as car file Takes roughly a minute for this swap to happen, which is why they mandate a minimum of driver swaps/disco's since some people have the option of running more people at the same computer, I could race with my brother as team mate as he lives 2 mins from here, which means that every time we swapped, using either his or my computer for both of us, we'd gain a minute over those that would have to disco to swap drivers We used this in the 2003 BR1000 and it worked like a charm, being a "relatively" short endurance event we only mandated a one disco/swap minimum Personally I don't see a problem with forcing a mandatory minimum number of swaps, most real life endurance event do the same, even in those rare cases where one driver runs a 4 hour even on his own, they usually force him to unbuckle, get out of the car and walk around the car once before getting back in or something like that, and in longer events they often regulate a maximum number of hours one driver can do in total Having run the BR1000 a few times, I don't think I could do much more than 3 hours in one sitting no matter, focusing that hard on a relatively small screen (compared to driving in real life) is actually quite hard on the eyes...and neck if you get all tensed up like I do Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

In article <404fe3f9$0$3953$[email hidden]>, "B Forbes" <[email hidden]> writes: >> N2k3 has features that would let 2 different drivers drive the same car, >even >> if they're across the country from each other. >> > > What about the damage issue? That's a good question. I don't know. I would *guess* that any damage incurred would be retained when the next driver jumps in. After all, to the server it's just the same driver reconnecting. Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

In article <[email hidden]>, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> writes: >Takes roughly a minute for this swap to happen, which is why they >mandate a minimum of driver swaps/disco's since some people have the >option of running more people at the same computer, I could race with my >brother as team mate as he lives 2 mins from here, which means that >every time we swapped, using either his or my computer for both of us, >we'd gain a minute over those that would have to disco to swap drivers Ok, so the minimum swaps thing *helps* you. If the league mandates swaps every half hour, co-drivers who aren't at the same location will make 11 swaps in a 6-hour race. That means they lose 11 minutes, according to you. If you two are right THERE, you lose maybe 5 seconds per swap, or less than a minute. You actually wouldn't lose ANY time because you could switch while the car is being serviced. The more driver swaps that are mandated, the larger YOUR advantage. Seems like mandating swaps gives the advantage to people local to each other. Is that really what they want to do? Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

In article <[email hidden]>, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> writes <enduro idea snipped> So, I take you can't watch as a spectator whilst waiting for your turn, which would have been nice. As a team player I'd love to keep an eye on my racing buddies and how they were doing. -- Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :) GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -25.01

[email hidden] disco to swap drivers

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> > Ok, so the minimum swaps thing *helps* you. If the league mandates > swaps every half hour, co-drivers who aren't at the same location will > make 11 swaps in a 6-hour race. That means they lose 11 minutes, > according to you. If you two are right THERE, you lose maybe 5 > seconds per swap, or less than a minute. You actually wouldn't lose > ANY time because you could switch while the car is being serviced. > The more driver swaps that are mandated, the larger YOUR advantage. > Seems like mandating swaps gives the advantage to people local to each > other. Is that really what they want to do? > > Eldred

Some of the early races called for those who share the same computer to sit still in the pits for one minute. I prefer forcing them to disconnect and reconnect just as if they were continents apart. This equalizes the risk of internet racing when we are never 100% sure our connection will still be there. Guys in the same room could gain about 50 seconds per swap. So, while not saying 11 swaps be mandated, having say 4 or 6 stops would give teams a level playing field. If the larger teams want to swap more often than the madated minimum, then they would be accepting the built-in handicap such swaps impose.

Peter Ives <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> In article <[email hidden]>, Dave > Henrie <[email hidden]> writes > > <enduro idea snipped> > > So, I take you can't watch as a spectator whilst waiting for your turn, > which would have been nice. As a team player I'd love to keep an eye on > my racing buddies and how they were doing.

There are options to 'broadcast' nr2k3 races over the internet and there are utilities that can show you icons on a track map of where your car is. dave henrie

"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:yj%3c.54618$TT5.40918@lakeread06: > Really? How is this done ? > > -Larry Gavin Chatt from Australia pioneered this stuff(as far as I know) His site Aus Team Racing has an online league with several endurance events. The ATR races are the team events I think. Here's a link to their site: http://austeamracing.com/ and here's a 1 page faq on setting up two guys to race the same car. This (hopefully) is the final Draft on multiple drivers being able to connect to a server and join as the same car to continue in a race. Creating the Driver - All team members need to create a new player (all of Identical name) One player sets all the options for the driver including carfile and connection settings. This player then transfers a group of files to the other members of the team :- these files consist of: the carfile, the player.ini file (for the newly created name) and a file that exists in the players directory called (something.ks).. The ks file is the checking file to make the server believe that the same computer is reconnecting. The other team members (receiveing the files) need to backup the ks file in their directory before overwriting it with the one received. After the race, they need to put the ks file back as it was. The players receiving the files can then setup all their options with controllers and graphics but MUST NOT change the player or connection details. CONNECTION TO THE SERVER WILL NOW BE TCP/IP.. address issued by email prior to the event. To change during the race remains exactly the same as previously described on the site. THIS MIGHT HELP Your team mates need to run the same ini file as you for the player.ini To do this you or one of your team need to create a new player within the game lets say John and I are setting this up so I'll use our names. Create a new player: First Name: Last Name: FUCHS RACING Number: 46 Sponsor: Fuchs Team: Fuchs ATR Fuchs Racing Team I would then save this as the player. I have John do the same as listed above. Each member of the team creates a new player of the same name eg. Fuchs Racing One team member sets up the player to have the correct connection and car file details. A single sierra account has to be used for all team members, so the team can either use an existing account or create a new one for the team That player (Chatt) would then supply the other team member (John) with the player.ini file. The other team member would copy the player.ini file into the player directory that they just created. C:\Papyrus\NASCAR Racing 2002 Season\players\Fuchs_Racing This results in multiple computers having the same player configuration. As we are all aware, if you are late to connect to a server, you cant connect, however if you have been on a server and fall off, you can reconnect and it is this theory that we apply. Only one team member can connect to the same server using the same Sierra Login Name, this is where you need to ensure you can communicate with your team mate so they know when your about to disconnect and once they time it, the next driver can then connect using the sierra login name and connect to the server you have just fallen off from. They will end up in pit lane ready to go. If your car is damaged you will enter the same damaged car, if your engine blows and you think a driver change will fix it, wrong We still have the scheduled "Practice Races" which we can assist those needing it. ANOTHER SUGGESTION Keep the auto chat the same as my sample below, as you can see from mine I have already set it up for either Ed or I to auto use the driver change notification all Ed needs to do is select number 9 and I number 0 and we just need to then add the lap number when we change drivers. [Autochat Messages] autochat_01=ATR 46 Pitting this lap. Pass HIGH. autochat_02=ATR 46 Exiting pit. Pass HIGH. autochat_03=Pass ATR 46 LEFT. autochat_04=Pass ATR 46 RIGHT. autochat_05=ATR 46 Passing You LEFT. autochat_06=ATR 46 Passing You RIGHT. autochat_07=ATR 46 Waves "THANK YOU" autochat_08=ATR 46 Damaged and off pace. autochat_09=DRIVER CHANGE - JOHN OUT CHATT IN LAP ## autochat_10=DRIVER CHANGE - CHATT OUT JOHN IN LAP ##

Ah, I got it. It's not a real 'feature', just taking advantage of something else the game does for you. Clever! -Larry "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Larry wrote: > > > > Really? How is this done ? > > You use the feature that allows you to reconnect to a server you've been > disconnected from by accident, except that in this case you pit, wait > for your actual pit stop to finish, unplug your internet connection to > force a disco, call your team mate and let him know you've disco'ed and > he reconnects using the same ID as you did, as well as car file > > Takes roughly a minute for this swap to happen, which is why they > mandate a minimum of driver swaps/disco's since some people have the > option of running more people at the same computer, I could race with my > brother as team mate as he lives 2 mins from here, which means that > every time we swapped, using either his or my computer for both of us, > we'd gain a minute over those that would have to disco to swap drivers > > We used this in the 2003 BR1000 and it worked like a charm, being a > "relatively" short endurance event we only mandated a one disco/swap > minimum > > Personally I don't see a problem with forcing a mandatory minimum number > of swaps, most real life endurance event do the same, even in those rare > cases where one driver runs a 4 hour even on his own, they usually force > him to unbuckle, get out of the car and walk around the car once before > getting back in or something like that, and in longer events they often > regulate a maximum number of hours one driver can do in total > > Having run the BR1000 a few times, I don't think I could do much more > than 3 hours in one sitting no matter, focusing that hard on a > relatively small screen (compared to driving in real life) is actually > quite hard on the eyes...and neck if you get all tensed up like I do > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:yj%3c.54618$TT5.40918@lakeread06: > Really? How is this done ? > > -Larry >

"mcewena" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Sometimes NR will let you call for a tow and other times not. If one > of the mod teams would look at making that more tailorable..... Yeah. What's the deal with rollovers or over fence things? Is that a race over thing? There's no shift - R since GPL is that right?

"B Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:40516ace$0$6075 $[email hidden]:

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> > "mcewena" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> >> Sometimes NR will let you call for a tow and other times not. If one >> of the mod teams would look at making that more tailorable..... > > Yeah. What's the deal with rollovers or over fence things? Is that a > race over thing? There's no shift - R since GPL is that right? > > >

At a track like the Nurburgring Nordschleife, that could indeed be a problem. There a plenty of areas that can launch you over the guard rails. I know one of the AI mod guys for F1c found he could get the sim to place the car back on the track after stopping outside the guardrails, but that probably will mean SOMEBODY would be zooming by just as you got dumped back ontrack. A track like the Daytona Rolex 24hr course has no real barriers. You could still wreck and ruin your car, But I think it would be highly unlikely that you'd find yourself somewhere that the tow truck couldn't save you. (a complete lap tow from the pits to the pits takes over 6 minutes!) THe LeMans Le Sarthe track seems like another natural for a 24hr race, but I'm not convinced the odd wall-touching=engine damage bug wouldn't rear it's ugly head. Bathurst and the modern Spa also host 24hr races in addition to the tracks listed above. dave henrie

> The one reason I'd mandate a minimun number of driver changes, is that > it takes about a minute to disconect and then get the new driver back to One or 2 randomly thrown yellow flags over a 6 hour period might spice things up too... Can you throw them with the !yellow chat command if the server is set to no yellows otherwise?

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> > > > So, I take you can't watch as a spectator whilst waiting for your turn, > > which would have been nice. As a team player I'd love to keep an eye on > > my racing buddies and how they were doing. > > There are options to 'broadcast' nr2k3 races over the internet and there > are utilities that can show you icons on a track map of where your car is. >

Could you undo the driver file changes and join under your own name as a spectator, the swap the files back when it's you're stint?

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:18:12 -0600, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote: > THe LeMans Le Sarthe track seems like another natural for a 24hr race, >but I'm not convinced the odd wall-touching=engine damage bug wouldn't rear >it's ugly head. There is a modern Le Mans in the works and pretty close to completion (I managed to surrepititiously grab a beta copy...heehee...). No engine exploding walls, tho some of the modern changes I loathe (Dunlop is a shadow of its former self). John DiFool

[email hidden] (mcewena) wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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>> > >> > So, I take you can't watch as a spectator whilst waiting for your >> > turn, which would have been nice. As a team player I'd love to >> > keep an eye on my racing buddies and how they were doing. >> >> There are options to 'broadcast' nr2k3 races over the internet and >> there >> are utilities that can show you icons on a track map of where your >> car is. >> > Could you undo the driver file changes and join under your own name as > a spectator, the swap the files back when it's you're stint? >

You'd have to be connected before the race began, AND you'd be taking up a slot that might be needed for a team.

EldredP wrote:

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> > In article <[email hidden]>, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> > writes: > > >Takes roughly a minute for this swap to happen, which is why they > >mandate a minimum of driver swaps/disco's since some people have the > >option of running more people at the same computer, I could race with my > >brother as team mate as he lives 2 mins from here, which means that > >every time we swapped, using either his or my computer for both of us, > >we'd gain a minute over those that would have to disco to swap drivers > > Ok, so the minimum swaps thing *helps* you. If the league mandates swaps every > half hour, co-drivers who aren't at the same location will make 11 swaps in a > 6-hour race. That means they lose 11 minutes, according to you. If you two > are right THERE, you lose maybe 5 seconds per swap, or less than a minute. You > actually wouldn't lose ANY time because you could switch while the car is being > serviced. The more driver swaps that are mandated, the larger YOUR advantage. > Seems like mandating swaps gives the advantage to people local to each other. > Is that really what they want to do?

Guess I wasn't as clear as I could have been :) .......the "forced swaps" would be actual disco/swaps, the race officials reviewing the replay later on would make sure "team so and so" had the min number of swaps, "team this and that" likewise and so on and so forth, so you could have as many swaps as your strategy requires, but as Dave H said, even if you and your team mate are racing on the same computer we enforced a 1 disco minimum in the BR1000 and it's the only way I can see to get some realism and fairness into it Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

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> "Rudeboy" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:skM3c.764671$ts4.326911@pd7tw3no: > > > What is the answer of whether two drivers can share one car on two > > different computers. Pretty sure that's not the case > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]... > With Nr2k3 you can. In fact SEVERAL drivers can all share the samecar

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> (not at once mind you) during a race. Even if they are located on > different continents. It takes a little work to get the car file squared > away, but anyone can team up with others and race with the programs we > currently have. Folks have already run fairly long races with driver > swapping. > One thing I've seen so far is most people limit their thinking to just > TWO DRIVERS. Why not 4? I'd like to drive early in the morning. go to > work, come back and take over from teammate # 3 or #4 8 or ten hours

later. > Flexibiity and challenge combined. > > dave henrie WOW! Holy Crap! Now you've got my interest. I'm in! I'm in! Where do I sign up?

In article <[email hidden]>, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Guess I wasn't as clear as I could have been :) .......the "forced >swaps" would be actual disco/swaps, the race officials reviewing the >replay later on would make sure "team so and so" had the min number of >swaps, "team this and that" likewise and so on and so forth, so you >could have as many swaps as your strategy requires, but as Dave H said, >even if you and your team mate are racing on the same computer we >enforced a 1 disco minimum in the BR1000 and it's the only way I can see >to get some realism and fairness into it

Yeah, that's what I got from Dave's response. I guess I just don't have many spare brain cycles recently... :-( Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

>"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote > We used this in the 2003 BR1000 and it worked like a charm, being a > "relatively" short endurance event we only mandated a one disco/swap > minimum I just think it's a shame that Papyrus never had the chance to simply fix NR2003 with another, final, patch. Wouldn't it had been too hard to simply fix 1) the dreaded Trans-Am problems of low-car rides and 2) add features to the sim for longer race and swapping drivers. It ain't too hard to fix. They had done GPL patches years after it's release. Why can't they do this for the work they have said to us being the "last" Nascar sim, the one that we are forced to race with for a couple of years. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

In article <TWN4c.53483$[email hidden]>, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> writes: >They had done GPL patches years after it's release. Why can't they do this >for the work they have said to us being the "last" Nascar sim, the one that >we are forced to race with for a couple of years. The GPL patches were 'unauthorized', I believe. Simply made by employees working in their spare time. Those employees are presumably too busy on whatever the next project is now... Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

> Bathurst and the modern Spa also host 24hr races in addition to the > tracks listed above. >I think Monza does as well, maybe somebody would convert the old combined banked course from GPL to NR ;) And there's always Brooklands ;)

>"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote > The GPL patches were 'unauthorized', I believe. Yes and... Why can't this be the same for Nascar Racing 2003? > Simply made by employees > working in their spare time. Those employees are presumably too busy on > whatever the next project is now... I see no difference with what happened before. Those employees back then weren't "presumably too busy on whatever the next project" was, being N4/NR2002/NR2003. Fact is, there are a couple of major problems presently with NR2003, and employees at Papyrus could fix them *easily*. The ride-height issue for AI an human cars isn't really a tough problem to handle for Papy. Cmon! Adding features for longer races and swappable drivers could be an easy addition also. When you press escape in your pitstall, instead of "retire" you could simply "swap driver". This just means that you get out of the server. It acts the same as a disconnect. Anybody can then enter back into the race. It's a shame Papyrus doesn't want to support NR2003 anymore. It's their LAST NASCAR TITLE and the one we're stuck for a couple of years. Couldn't they do this as a gift to the community that has supported them, made them be able to buy their friggin food and pay their appartments for the last couple of years? -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<gTx5c.7875$[email hidden]>... > >"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote > > The GPL patches were 'unauthorized', I believe. > > > Yes and... Why can't this be the same for Nascar Racing 2003? > I suspect the higher the sales the harder it is to sneak 'unauthorized' patches out the door. The bean counters had probably already written gpl off when it's patches were done.

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> >> Simply made by employees >> working in their spare time. Those employees are presumably too busy on >> whatever the next project is now... > > >I see no difference with what happened before. Those employees back then >weren't "presumably too busy on whatever the next project" was, being >N4/NR2002/NR2003. Fact is, there are a couple of major problems presently >with NR2003, and employees at Papyrus could fix them *easily*. The >ride-height issue for AI an human cars isn't really a tough problem to >handle for Papy. Cmon! Adding features for longer races and swappable >drivers could be an easy addition also. When you press escape in your >pitstall, instead of "retire" you could simply "swap driver". This just >means that you get out of the server. It acts the same as a disconnect. >Anybody can then enter back into the race.

But Papyrus was also owned by a different company when GPL came out. IT's possible that the new owners have told them NOT to work anymore on it. Licensing for current NASCAR could be a lot different than for historical F1 racing. And, we don't really have any idea how 'easily' stuff could be fixed. How many other companies/employees have you heard of as providing a 'gift' for the people who bought the game? Other than GPL, I don't think I've *ever* heard of anyone doing that. Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > But Papyrus was also owned by a different company when GPL came out. IT's > possible that the new owners have told them NOT to work anymore on it. > Licensing for current NASCAR could be a lot different than for historicalF1 > racing. > > And, we don't really have any idea how 'easily' stuff could be fixed. Howmany > other companies/employees have you heard of as providing a 'gift' for the > people who bought the game? Other than GPL, I don't think I've *ever*heard of > anyone doing that. > Speaking of Papy obligations, anyone know how long Papy/Sierra are legally required, if at all, to provide the online meeting place? Any plans for when and if it folds ie like VROC Nas?

B Forbes wrote: > > Speaking of Papy obligations, anyone know how long Papy/Sierra are > legally required, if at all, to provide the online meeting place? Any plans > for when and if it folds ie like VROC Nas? FWIW, the moderators on the Nascar forums on Sierra claims that the N2003 servers aren't going away any time soon, in some ways it makes sense to keep them there as it can't cost them all that much to keep them running, the bandwidth usage would be limited, hardware is already paid for and since there won't be any more updates and patches it prolly runs more or less without maintenance these days Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--