DO the cars in GP2 actually have different performance ..........................

values programmed into them for the simulation? For some time, I had been driving the Jean Alesi FERRARI and last night decided to try one of the BENNETON cars for a change in scenery so to speak. What I found really surprised me. I needed to change the suspension settings and wing angles a bit, as well as the gearing, because I found the BENNETON was prone to wild oversteer with the FERRARI settings. Once I set down and worked out the NEW settings for the BENNETON, I found I was going faster than the ferrari was at the height of the performance curve, and as the fuel and laps ran down, I was averaging a second to second and a half per lap faster than the FERRARI ever did! That was at MONZA ---------------- so I decided to try Monaco, and to my surprise, I found the very same thing -------------------- this time I didn't have to change any of the settings, but the BENNETON was less prone to understeer than the FERRARI, and it immediately lapped at the one minute twenty to one minute twenty one lap times whereas the FERRARI was prone to around two seconds per lap slower with the same amount of fuel in the tank and laps on the tires. Has anyone else experienced this? Does anyone know if this is programmed to do this --- or is it I just seem to like looking at a "pretty blue" cowling rather than a red one? :-) Help appreciated here! Doug

Very unlikely. All editors and all previous experiences from drivers indicate that the player's car always receives the same performance characteristics, no matter what team you choose. Probably imagination or you overlooked some changes in settings :-) JoH Please remove *anti-spam* from the email when replying. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= When everything else failed, we can still become im- mortal by making an enormous blunder.... John Kenneth Galbraith =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Doug, All the drivers and all the cars behave differently. This was one of the major changes from F1GP to GP2. Performance data was compiled from the various sources and programmed into the game so Hill drivers like Hill and Schumacher drives live Schumacher. When one adds one of these "thord party" addon's to change the look of the cars it cannot change the fact that the 1994 Williams car is still driving "almost" as such even though it looks different. Sadly "almost" means that these addon's do "break" the program as it doesn't run as efficently as it once did. :( Regards, Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe

Quoted text (32 lines)

> values programmed into them for the simulation? > For some time, I had been driving the Jean Alesi FERRARI and last >night decided to try one of the BENNETON cars for a change in scenery >so to speak. > What I found really surprised me. I needed to change the >suspension settings and wing angles a bit, as well as the gearing, >because I found the BENNETON was prone to wild oversteer with the >FERRARI settings. > Once I set down and worked out the NEW settings for the BENNETON, I >found I was going faster than the ferrari was at the height of the >performance curve, and as the fuel and laps ran down, I was averaging >a second to second and a half per lap faster than the FERRARI ever >did! >That was at MONZA ---------------- so I decided to try Monaco, and to >my surprise, I found the very same thing -------------------- this >time I didn't have to change any of the settings, but the BENNETON was >less prone to understeer than the FERRARI, and it immediately lapped >at the one minute twenty to one minute twenty one lap times whereas >the FERRARI was prone to around two seconds per lap slower with the >same amount of fuel in the tank and laps on the tires. > Has anyone else experienced this? Does anyone know if this is >programmed to do this --- or is it I just seem to like looking at a >"pretty blue" cowling rather than a red one? :-) > Help appreciated here! > Doug

You know what? I think you're about as real as those Pink Elephants you hear people talking about :-) No hair on my head believes that you are from Microprose! JoH Please remove *anti-spam* from the email when replying. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= When everything else failed, we can still become im- mortal by making an enormous blunder.... John Kenneth Galbraith =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jo Helsen schreef:

Quoted text (22 lines)

> >Doug, > >All the drivers and all the cars behave differently. > >This was one of the major changes from F1GP to GP2. Performance data was > >compiled from the various sources and programmed into the game so Hill > >drivers like Hill and Schumacher drives live Schumacher. > >When one adds one of these "thord party" addon's to change the look of the > >cars it cannot change the fact that the 1994 Williams car is still driving > >"almost" as such even though it looks different. Sadly "almost" means that > >these addon's do "break" the program as it doesn't run as efficently as it > >once did. :( > >Regards, > >Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe > You know what? I think you're about as real as those Pink Elephants you hear > people talking about :-) > No hair on my head believes that you are from Microprose! > JoH

Yeah I think you're right.I've changed about everything in GP2 (with GP2edit) even the circuits and it still runs perfect, hell i think it runs a lot better. Richard Hasselt Murray: "Damon, I told visitors at home that you were simply speaking to Michael [Schumacher] and there is not the bitter feud between the two of you." Damon: "Not surprisingly Murray, you got it wrong."

Jo, If you don't beleive I am at MicroProse-Europe Customer Services try calling us one day on the telephone. We can then tell you directly the answer to any of your questions. Better to know than to fan the factually incorrect comments the others leave in the newsgroups. Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe ----------

Quoted text (10 lines)

>>Doug, >>All the drivers and all the cars behave differently. >>This was one of the major changes from F1GP to GP2. Performance data was >>compiled from the various sources and programmed into the game so Hill >>drivers like Hill and Schumacher drives live Schumacher. >>When one adds one of these "thord party" addon's to change the look of the >>cars it cannot change the fact that the 1994 Williams car is still driving >>"almost" as such even though it looks different. Sadly "almost" means

that

Quoted text (7 lines)

>>these addon's do "break" the program as it doesn't run as efficently as it >>once did. :( >>Regards, >>Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe >You know what? I think you're about as real as those Pink Elephants you

hear

Quoted text (12 lines)

>people talking about :-) >No hair on my head believes that you are from Microprose! >JoH >Please remove *anti-spam* from the email when replying. >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >When everything else failed, we can still become im- >mortal by making an enormous blunder.... > John Kenneth Galbraith >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Well, if that is the case, why not issue an official media announcement clarifying the position? There are innumerable *** magazines out there and I'm sure that the editors of every one would welcome your statement. So how about it, Mr. Rich? > Jo, > If you don't beleive I am at MicroProse-Europe Customer Services try calling > us one day on the telephone. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Bruce, When the first illegal editors started to appear for GP2 we in Customer Services told by our QA people who were told by Geoff that all functions of GP2 are NOT seperate.. Editing the car designed will effect sound or performace, editing the sounds affect the AI, etc etc. Each part of GP2 was written in a special way to check the validity of the other parts. This is as I have said the information we were presented with. All MicroProse products have licence aggreements which have now been tighted to prevent any future editors on future games which would result in legal charges. The programs are our copyright and the copyright of the authors (in the case of GP2 - Geoff Crammond) and not subject to disassembling by anyone without permission. Regards, Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe ======

Quoted text (12 lines)

>Well, if that is the case, why not issue an official media announcement >clarifying the position? >There are innumerable *** magazines out there and I'm sure that the >editors of every one would welcome your statement. >So how about it, Mr. Rich? >> Jo, >> If you don't beleive I am at MicroProse-Europe Customer Services try

calling

Quoted text (8 lines)

>> us one day on the telephone. >-- >Regards, >Bruce. >---------- >The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- >http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Quoted text (17 lines)

>Bruce, >When the first illegal editors started to appear for GP2 we in Customer >Services told by our QA people who were told by Geoff that all functions of >GP2 are NOT seperate.. Editing the car designed will effect sound or >performace, editing the sounds affect the AI, etc etc. Each part of GP2 was >written in a special way to check the validity of the other parts. This is >as I have said the information we were presented with. >All MicroProse products have licence aggreements which have now been tighted >to prevent any future editors on future games which would result in legal >charges. The programs are our copyright and the copyright of the authors >(in the case of GP2 - Geoff Crammond) and not subject to disassembling by >anyone without permission. >Regards, >Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe

Just to be clear, is this an official company line, or the ranting of an ego-massaging MPS Tech Support Employee? Z.

Quoted text (17 lines)

> Bruce, > When the first illegal editors started to appear for GP2 we in Customer > Services told by our QA people who were told by Geoff that all functions of > GP2 are NOT seperate.. Editing the car designed will effect sound or > performace, editing the sounds affect the AI, etc etc. Each part of GP2 was > written in a special way to check the validity of the other parts. This is > as I have said the information we were presented with. > All MicroProse products have licence aggreements which have now been tighted > to prevent any future editors on future games which would result in legal > charges. The programs are our copyright and the copyright of the authors > (in the case of GP2 - Geoff Crammond) and not subject to disassembling by > anyone without permission. > Regards, > Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe

This is on of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. If Microprose imposes this on us I will never buy another Microprose Game. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports

Slow down, Zonk. There WAS a dialog going on here -- a bit confusing perhaps, but a dialog nonetheless. I hope we don't start call names here. Regards, Kurt

> Just to be clear, is this an official company line, or the ranting of an > ego-massaging MPS Tech Support Employee? > Z. Why is everyone giving Mark Rich such a hard time. This is the first time I've ever seen someone from Microprose post in this ng. Surely he's in a position to give definitive answers to questions we'd all like answered. -- UK.

For me using an editor like GP2 edit gives a lot more fun to GP2. I like it, being able to change whatever i want. Richard Hasselt "A lot of people think racing is about going fast. But it's not. It's about going just slow enough to stay on the track."

And what,s most important for me being able to update the game to this 1998 season. I mean how much fun is it to drive 1994 (!) cars of such poor quality when you can drive the 1998 cars which look almost perfect. and don't forget the helmets. Richard Hasselt "A lot of people think racing is about going fast. But it's not. It's about going just slow enough to stay on the track."

Quoted text (12 lines)

>Path: >> Just to be clear, is this an official company line, or the ranting of an >> ego-massaging MPS Tech Support Employee? >> Z. >Why is everyone giving Mark Rich such a hard time. This is the >first time I've ever seen someone from Microprose post in this >ng. Surely he's in a position to give definitive answers to >questions we'd all like answered.

Andrew, if he is in a position to make such statements. Based on the his self-indicated role, and that apart from his .sig, he does not seem to be posting to this ng in anything but a personal manner. I'd just like clairification from both Mark, and The Bod's at MPS exactly what and who Mark is representing in these statements. As MPS are more than well aware, the majority- not saying all, of the performance based editors are legal to the letter of the law. I personally do work in the industry, but as this is a personal post, i'm not about to say who for. Quite simply i don't believe any person in a place of responsibility would make the statements that Mark has made, except in the worst case of bad judgement. Therefore, i am left with no option to conclude that Mark has seriosuly overstepped his (mark?), and i would like clarification on who's views the previous post by mark represent. Z.

Well looking at the FPS market I would say you almost *have* to include editors these days. However, if MPS think that they can miss something out of their product them slap down the hardworking individuals who create editors and expand the life of their product then they are not only misguided, but becoming amazingly arrogant. I'm sure that the people in here are amongst the most knowledgable sim racing fans in the world and if MPS turn us against them, they're going to have a hard time. MPS need to sit down and look at what they want to do... is it going to be like the last "computer boom" when the customer came second and the mighty dollar came first or are they going to give us what we want and deserve? If Mark is not representing MPS and rather voicing an opinion then he should at least make sure people know. If he's misquoted the MPS stance then he has exhibited a complete lack of professionalism and needs to make sure he finds out how his employer treats things like this before his actions get him in trouble Atlaz -> -> Bruce, -> -> When the first illegal editors started to appear for GP2 we in Customer -> Services told by our QA people who were told by Geoff that all functions of -> GP2 are NOT seperate.. Editing the car designed will effect sound or -> performace, editing the sounds affect the AI, etc etc. Each part of GP2 was -> written in a special way to check the validity of the other parts. This is -> as I have said the information we were presented with. -> -> All MicroProse products have licence aggreements which have now been tighted -> to prevent any future editors on future games which would result in legal -> charges. The programs are our copyright and the copyright of the authors -> (in the case of GP2 - Geoff Crammond) and not subject to disassembling by -> anyone without permission. -> -> Regards, -> Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe

I'm not relying on comments here. It's _experience_ I'm talking about. I have been driving (modified) GP2 for more hours than you watched TV your life<G>. The game runs perfectly well with carsets, new tracks and everything else. No matter what Mr. Crammond wanted you to believe! As for the editors being illegal and such: they're all for free, so if you see any harm in THAT, I don't think I'll waste more time replying. JoH Please remove *anti-spam* from the email when replying. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= When everything else failed, we can still become im- mortal by making an enormous blunder.... John Kenneth Galbraith =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Thank you Andrew! Mark

Quoted text (13 lines)

>> Just to be clear, is this an official company line, or the ranting of an >> ego-massaging MPS Tech Support Employee? >> Z. >Why is everyone giving Mark Rich such a hard time. This is the >first time I've ever seen someone from Microprose post in this >ng. Surely he's in a position to give definitive answers to >questions we'd all like answered. >-- >UK.

I think it's the misguided ravings of a borderline loony! Surely a compnay like Microprose would not risk placing the responsibility for Customer Service in the hands of this idiot?!

Quoted text (22 lines)

> >Bruce, > >When the first illegal editors started to appear for GP2 we in Customer > >Services told by our QA people who were told by Geoff that all functions of > >GP2 are NOT seperate.. Editing the car designed will effect sound or > >performace, editing the sounds affect the AI, etc etc. Each part of GP2 was > >written in a special way to check the validity of the other parts. This is > >as I have said the information we were presented with. > >All MicroProse products have licence aggreements which have now been tighted > >to prevent any future editors on future games which would result in legal > >charges. The programs are our copyright and the copyright of the authors > >(in the case of GP2 - Geoff Crammond) and not subject to disassembling by > >anyone without permission. > >Regards, > >Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe > Just to be clear, is this an official company line, or the ranting of an > ego-massaging MPS Tech Support Employee? > Z.

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Hey Andrew......go back and have another look. I didn't ask any questions relating to his "answers"!!!

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > Just to be clear, is this an official company line, or the ranting of an > > ego-massaging MPS Tech Support Employee? > > Z. > Why is everyone giving Mark Rich such a hard time. This is the > first time I've ever seen someone from Microprose post in this > ng. Surely he's in a position to give definitive answers to > questions we'd all like answered. > -- > UK.

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

"Dialogue"? Crap! The bloke through a load of garbage back at me! I never raised the question of editors!

Quoted text (15 lines)

> (Zonker) writes: > >Just to be clear, is this an official company line, or the ranting of an > >ego-massaging MPS Tech Support Employee? > >Z. > Slow down, Zonk. > There WAS a dialog going on here -- a bit confusing perhaps, but a dialog > nonetheless. I hope we don't start call names here. > Regards, > Kurt

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

No...they won't have a hard time because although the views expressed here *may* be from the "most knowledgable", they are certainly a miniscule representation of the total market. > I'm sure that the people in here are amongst the most knowledgable sim racing > fans in the world and if MPS turn us against them, they're going to have a > hard time. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Sorry Mark (if thats who you really are) thats not how copyrights work. Want to take it to court? I 'm there. Any author who wants to create an editor can. -- Jim Dunphy The Pits- www.theuspits.com > Bruce, > When the first illegal editors started to appear for GP2 we in Customer > Services told by our QA people who were told by Geoff that all functions of > GP2 are NOT seperate.. Editing the car designed will effect sound or > performace, editing the sounds affect the AI, etc etc. Each part of GP2 was > written in a special way to check the validity of the other parts. This is > as I have said the information we were presented with. > All MicroProse products have licence aggreements which have now been tighted > to prevent any future editors on future games which would result in legal > charges. The programs are our copyright and the copyright of the authors > (in the case of GP2 - Geoff Crammond) and not subject to disassembling by > anyone without permission. > Regards, > Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe > ====== > >Well, if that is the case, why not issue an official media announcement > >clarifying the position? > >There are innumerable *** magazines out there and I'm sure that the > >editors of every one would welcome your statement. > >So how about it, Mr. Rich? > >> Jo, > >> If you don't beleive I am at MicroProse-Europe Customer Services try > calling > >> us one day on the telephone. > >-- > >Regards, > >Bruce. > >---------- > >The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- > >http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

HERE HERE!! -- Jim Dunphy The Pits- http://www.theuspits.com

This is one of the stupidest remarks I've heard. The 3rd party editors add to the game asswipe and would help to drive sales if Micropose was so inclined.

Quoted text (17 lines)

> Bruce, > When the first illegal editors started to appear for GP2 we in Customer > Services told by our QA people who were told by Geoff that all functions of > GP2 are NOT seperate.. Editing the car designed will effect sound or > performace, editing the sounds affect the AI, etc etc. Each part of GP2 was > written in a special way to check the validity of the other parts. This is > as I have said the information we were presented with. > All MicroProse products have licence aggreements which have now been tighted > to prevent any future editors on future games which would result in legal > charges. The programs are our copyright and the copyright of the authors > (in the case of GP2 - Geoff Crammond) and not subject to disassembling by > anyone without permission. > Regards, > Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe

There is very little point in arguing as you are all set your minds on how things work in contridiction of that we have been told internally. The fact is that the editor programs for this game work by disassembling program code written and owned by someone else. To do this one must first obtain the permission of the copyright holder which as far as we in CS (Europe/UK) have been told has never happened. My understanding is that we are not going to jump up and down and shout stop using them, what's the point? We are also not going to go round to all the WWW sites and ask them to remove the editors - again what's that point? The reality is by editing code one has no permission to edit is illegal and "could" result in charges in some cases even though we have decided not to pursue this, but licence aggrements are supplied in the packages which all indicate the one is not allowed to edit the code and this is wrong. In the wake of GP2 I was told by the development department that these aggreements were tightened on all UK sourced products (the US ones already having such an agreement - if memory serves) that strongly indicate this line and I have been told that this "should" stop this on FUTURE products. I was also told that the company takes this very seriously and Geoff was not happy at the editors that started to appear shortly after publication. Whether this is correct or not, I do not know, this is simply what I was told. The editors do "break" the program according to our QA people in the UK who forwarded me this infomation a very long time ago and they upset the AI, sound, stability of the program, etc although the perfomance of the cars (going back to the original thread and not the resulting insults to me) are not affected and will continue to drive like 1994 cars as this is how they were programmed from performance data gathered during development. Why performance is unaffected I do not know, probably a different part of the program, I would not like to even guess. If anyone has any SERIOUS questions please send them to me instead of the insults and factually incorrect assumptions that made this simple answer to a simple queston so long. Regards, Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe >>Jo, >>If you don't beleive I am at MicroProse-Europe Customer Services try calling >>us one day on the telephone. >>We can then tell you directly the answer to any of your questions. >>Better to know than to fan the factually incorrect comments the others leave >>in the newsgroups. >I'm not relying on comments here. It's _experience_ I'm talking about. I have >been driving (modified) GP2 for more hours than you watched TV your life<G>. >The game runs perfectly well with carsets, new tracks and everything else. No >matter what Mr. Crammond wanted you to believe! >As for the editors being illegal and such: they're all for free, so if you see

Quoted text (10 lines)

>any harm in THAT, I don't think I'll waste more time replying. >JoH >Please remove *anti-spam* from the email when replying. >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >When everything else failed, we can still become im- >mortal by making an enormous blunder.... > John Kenneth Galbraith >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

>If anyone has any SERIOUS questions please send them to me instead of the >insults and factually incorrect assumptions that made this simple answer to >a simple queston so long. >Regards, >Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe Mark, Serious question: Are we to take the views as expressive of Microprose, be it MPS Europe, or MPS as a company, or take them as the expressed opinion of Mark Rich. If you are unwilling to answer this- which by and large you have so far, i guess i'll have to seek clarification from Jason Dutton at MPS's PR Department. Regards Z.

So... It is illegal to reverse engineer a file structure and create code based on this structure? Wrong... if this were the case surely MPS, id Software and a plethora of others would be rich as hell from taking people to court. Admittedly this is a grey area in UK software law from what I understand, but still it is not illegal. Distribution of copyright material *is* illegal however... Altering car colours etc. alters AI. Wrong again. Have you ever played GP2 Mark or is this just a "My boss told me this so it's true" comment like you get from most tech support people? The majority of GP2 drivers on this forum know that this is rubbish regardless of what you were told by these "QA people". We have asked you SERIOUS questions all along but you've avoided answering them and put us of with useless answers like this. You have sidestepped the issue of whether you're talking for yourself or for MPS and I guess some people are going to call for clarification soon. You may think you're talking to kids here Mark, but the majority of us aren't and even if we were, your attitude would still be inappropriate. If you want respect, please do more than come online saying "I work at MPS so listen to me" Atlaz -There is very little point in arguing as you are all set your minds on how -things work in contridiction of that we have been told internally. - -The fact is that the editor programs for this game work by disassembling -program code written and owned by someone else. To do this one must first -obtain the permission of the copyright holder which as far as we in CS -(Europe/UK) have been told has never happened. My understanding is that we -are not going to jump up and down and shout stop using them, what's the -point? We are also not going to go round to all the WWW sites and ask them -to remove the editors - again what's that point? The reality is by editing -code one has no permission to edit is illegal and "could" result in charges -in some cases even though we have decided not to pursue this, but licence -aggrements are supplied in the packages which all indicate the one is not -allowed to edit the code and this is wrong. - -In the wake of GP2 I was told by the development department that these -aggreements were tightened on all UK sourced products (the US ones already -having such an agreement - if memory serves) that strongly indicate this -line and I have been told that this "should" stop this on FUTURE products. -I was also told that the company takes this very seriously and Geoff was not -happy at the editors that started to appear shortly after publication. -Whether this is correct or not, I do not know, this is simply what I was -told. - -The editors do "break" the program according to our QA people in the UK who -forwarded me this infomation a very long time ago and they upset the AI, -sound, stability of the program, etc although the perfomance of the cars -(going back to the original thread and not the resulting insults to me) are -not affected and will continue to drive like 1994 cars as this is how they -were programmed from performance data gathered during development. Why -performance is unaffected I do not know, probably a different part of the -program, I would not like to even guess. - -If anyone has any SERIOUS questions please send them to me instead of the -insults and factually incorrect assumptions that made this simple answer to -a simple queston so long. - -Regards, -Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe - - -> ->>Jo, ->> ->>If you don't beleive I am at MicroProse-Europe Customer Services try -calling ->>us one day on the telephone. ->>We can then tell you directly the answer to any of your questions. ->>Better to know than to fan the factually incorrect comments the others -leave ->>in the newsgroups. -> ->I'm not relying on comments here. It's _experience_ I'm talking about. I -have ->been driving (modified) GP2 for more hours than you watched TV your -life<G>. -> ->The game runs perfectly well with carsets, new tracks and everything else. -No ->matter what Mr. Crammond wanted you to believe! -> ->As for the editors being illegal and such: they're all for free, so if you -see ->any harm in THAT, I don't think I'll waste more time replying. -> ->JoH ->Please remove *anti-spam* from the email when replying. ->=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ->When everything else failed, we can still become im- ->mortal by making an enormous blunder.... -> -> John Kenneth Galbraith ->=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - -

A wonderful answer to a question that was never asked. Would you PLEASE.....PLEASE simply respond to my question, which was posted here two days ago? > There is very little point in arguing as you are all set your minds on how > things work in contridiction of that we have been told internally. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Mr ?, All replies are answered "Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe" therefore are not the opinions of myself but the same line that is given via email, telephone and fax to anyone who contacts Customer Services in the UK. People are not treated any different in their response wherever it may be sourced from. UK support via myself will no longer be posting any more replies in this newsgroup that has led a small number of people to send further insults and accusations against me. Instead all replies to future problems, that are known to us left here, will be answered to the individial directly. Further clarrification of the company line may be obtained from PR as you wish, although the information we supply people at all levels is the same and it is my understanding that any "end-user" enquiries regarding our products will be forwarded back to CS for replying to. Regards, Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe >>If anyone has any SERIOUS questions please send them to me instead of the >>insults and factually incorrect assumptions that made this simple answer to

Quoted text (11 lines)

>>a simple queston so long. >>Regards, >>Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe >Mark, >Serious question: >Are we to take the views as expressive of Microprose, be it MPS Europe, or

MPS

Quoted text (9 lines)

>as a company, or take them as the expressed opinion of Mark Rich. >If you are unwilling to answer this- which by and large you have so far, i >guess i'll have to seek clarification from Jason Dutton at MPS's PR >Department. >Regards >Z.

Fine. This is what i was seeking clarification on. One would hope you are answering people directly as well as in a public forum anyway, should they ask questions. As for the insults, it's quite apparent that you have not realised to the level you have insulted participants of this group. If your comments are the public line of a company like Microprose than i guess we can understand why the company is in such a financial quagmyre. Who at anytime suggested i was interested in this manner as an end-user? I am interested in MPS statements as a person who works in the industry. Thanks for finally answering my question, Z.

Quoted text (9 lines)

>Jo, >If you don't beleive I am at MicroProse-Europe Customer Services try calling >us one day on the telephone. >We can then tell you directly the answer to any of your questions. >Better to know than to fan the factually incorrect comments the others leave >in the newsgroups. >Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe

Hi Mark, can you tell me then if tyre wear in gp2 depends on driving style (e.g., can you go easy on the tyres) as opposed to f1pg where a fixed amount of *** would be scratched off the tyres for every driven lap? Another thing I noticed and that I found quite strange: The other day I downloaded and installed the 98 track pack from www.gp2.com. I tried driving Canada, pole time was a low 1:18, I think, but then I did not like the ORDER of the tracks, so I re-installed the original tracks and copied the new Canada Track over the original one. Strangely enough lap times went up into the 1:23 area, although the track is basically the same... Can anyone shed some light on this situation? Thanks in advance for your comments, Uwe. -- Spam-proof e-mail: Uwe Schuerkamp <hoover at telemedia . de> http://www.telemedia.de/~hoover ////// Phone: +49-5241-80-10-66 Best of Scottish Folk: http://home.pages.de/~nsg >>> Blue Ribbon Campaign: Support Free Speech on the Internet <<<

Mark, Thanks for answering the questions we had asked. If you've been mailed personally with abusive comments I am sorry that there are people who feel that is the way to act. However, your answer has left me and, I'm sure, others worried about the future of MPS products as far as keeping them alive through third-party addons. I for one will be thinking carefully before picking any MPS product up again as a company that does not appreciate it's customers is one I don't want to support. Rgds Atlaz

> "Dialogue"? > Crap! The bloke through a load of garbage back at me! I never raised > the question of editors! Sure you did Bruce. You mentioned editors in your original question - magazine editors :) -- UK.

Hi Mark, My question would be did you ever try an editor like GP2edit by Steven Young. If not you should really give it a try. With this editor you do change the cars performance, if you want you can have a Larrousse (1994 original version) win every race. Richard Hasselt "A lot of people think racing is about going fast. But it's not. It's about going just slow enough to stay on the track." =================================================== My Homepage : http://over.to/rhasselt F1 Connections : http://over.to/f1connections Team Jordan Grandprix 2 Homepage : http://home.worldonline.nl/~barhorst/jordangp2.htm ===================================================

Atlaz schreef: I have to agree here.. Richard Hasselt "A lot of people think racing is about going fast. But it's not. It's about going just slow enough to stay on the track." =================================================== My Homepage : http://over.to/rhasselt F1 Connections : http://over.to/f1connections Team Jordan Grandprix 2 Homepage : http://home.worldonline.nl/~barhorst/jordangp2.htm ===================================================

Ooops....got me! :o)

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > "Dialogue"? > > Crap! The bloke through a load of garbage back at me! I never raised > > the question of editors! > Sure you did Bruce. You mentioned editors in your original question - > magazine editors :) > -- > UK.

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Quoted text (18 lines)

>>Serrious question: >>Are we to take the views as expressive of Microprose, be it MPS Europe, or MPS >>as a company, or take them as the expressed opinion of Mark Rich. >Out of interest, in August last year, I took issue with one of Mr Rich's >posts to this ng. He responded and I sent another email. This time someone >else wrote back: > Any retail title you see on a shelf that doesn't say something like " > Officially Licenced Product" or "Endorsed by MicroProse", ( or > something to that effect,) STEAR CLEAR OF THEM .... THEY ARE > ILLEGAL ...... If you do come across something like this, please > alert us as soon as possible. Last year, we gave away a bunch of > free stuff to customers for helping us ferret out this junk..... > I hope this answers your questions, and yes, you have my permission > to post this e-mail to your forum ( in it's entirety..)

Again, much to this guys protestation's they are simply not illegal. MPS might have you convinced that they are, and there are indeed behind the scenes many court action procedding, but not have been of the outcome so far that indicate this would be illegal. Some companies think these things are bad, somecomes (Eidos springs to mind) believe they are a very good part of the software world. Whether u would buy one or not comes down to the customer, i would see. If they are clearly not contianing any copyright code... then there can be no issue. Quite obviously, they may not be endorsed by MPS, but this does not exactly make it a bad product either. Z.

All, We can end this NOW How about MPS employee's identify themselves as valid MPS employee's by answering the following unpublished questions then I will keep a list of valid MPS email addresson my track editing site. Any worthwhile support engineer should be able to either know this or find this out. I ask this becuase I've already had correspondence with one person 'pretending' to be Geoff and they got it wrong! Q) What piece of information about GP2 track format is stored just before the JAM files Q) What is the maximum number of internal objects that can be stored in a Track File Q) What is the code for identifying internal objects in F1GP and GP2 track files Paul Hoad -- Dr Paul Hoad PhD BEng AMIEE Senior Software Developer (Java) 2 Milbanke Court Milbanke Way Bracknell Berkshire RG12 1RP England Work: +44 (0) 1344 426486 ext.104 Fax: +44 (0) 1344 426615 ICQ Number (UIN) 8719582

I eat my hat if Mr. Rich could answer that question (taking his "knowledge" of GP2 into account). What people "out there" found out can be read at the track manager page:(visit it!!) http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/7479/ I quote: "?The time multiplier. I don't think really that something like a time multiplier exists. It is only a try to describe this effect when you move a track from position to position. If you take a track file and put it to all available positions in GP2 (this means: you copy f1ct01.dat to all available slots: f1ct01.dat .. f1ct16.dat) you have only one circuit in the game, but in every slot. If you drive a fast lap on this track on every of the 16 ?positions, you won't feel any difference between the slots. Well, its still the same track why should make it a difference wether you drive it ?on slot 1or on slot 16. But the times shown by the computer differ a lot.?If you meassure the real time you need for a fast lap with a stop watch you will see, that the times are still the same. Only the times shown by the computer are differnt. This is caused by the "time multiplier".? " Jo Helsen Member of the Unofficial Public GP2 Support Team <G> Please remove *anti-spam* from the email when replying. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= When everything else failed, we can still become im- mortal by making an enormous blunder.... John Kenneth Galbraith =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> Why is everyone giving Mark Rich such a hard time. This is the > first time I've ever seen someone from Microprose post in this > ng. Surely he's in a position to give definitive answers to > questions we'd all like answered. Mark Rich has posted here many times since GP2 first appeared, and IMHO he has *NEVER* given a straight answer to a straight question? 8-) *Peter* (NB: remove asterix to e-mail)

Try answering that one Mr. Rich and if you can we will all apologize! -- Jim Dunphy The Pits- http://www.theuspits.com > All, > We can end this NOW > How about MPS employee's identify themselves as valid MPS employee's by > answering the following unpublished questions then I will keep a list of valid > MPS email > addresson my track editing site. Any worthwhile support engineer should be > able to either know this or find this out. > I ask this becuase I've already had correspondence with one person > 'pretending' to be Geoff and they got it wrong! > Q) What piece of information about GP2 track format is stored just before > the JAM files > Q) What is the maximum number of internal objects that can be stored in a > Track File > Q) What is the code for identifying internal objects in F1GP and GP2 > track files > Paul Hoad > -- > Dr Paul Hoad PhD BEng AMIEE > Senior Software Developer (Java) > 2 Milbanke Court > Milbanke Way > Bracknell > Berkshire > RG12 1RP > England > Work: +44 (0) 1344 426486 ext.104 > Fax: +44 (0) 1344 426615 > ICQ Number (UIN) 8719582

My final words on the topic are these: If it wasn't for all the people out there doing these "hacks" and editors I doubt that GP2 (or any other sim) would have lasted as long as it has. It isn't perfect, far from it. These people, like Steve Young, if nothing else have probably put money in Microprose pocket! Look at some of the pieces of ***software that are out there. Do they have the support out there like N2 or GP2 has? NO! We the people give new life and extend the play of what are other wise "unfinished" games. -- Jim Dunphy The Pits- www.theuspits.com

Hi, thanks for comments on the time multiplier. The situation doesn't apply to my scenario because I copied the new canada track from the 98trackpack at gp2 over the old canada track, so into the same slot, so to speak, renaming it in the process, and still times were vastly different (1:18 on the 98'track, 1:23 on the original). Cheers, uwe. -- Spam-proof e-mail: Uwe Schuerkamp <hoover at telemedia . de> http://www.telemedia.de/~hoover ////// Phone: +49-5241-80-10-66 Best of Scottish Folk: http://home.pages.de/~nsg >>> Blue Ribbon Campaign: Support Free Speech on the Internet <<<

We are having a talk concerning the companies involvement in the group in the thread named: Programmer/Publisher group posts Perhaps we can get them involved more and in a better way. Harald. Jim Dunphy heeft geschreven in bericht My final words on the topic are these: If it wasn't for all the people out there doing these "hacks" and editors I doubt that GP2 (or any other sim) would have lasted as long as it has. It isn't perfect, far from it. These people, like Steve Young, if nothing else have probably put money in Microprose pocket! Look at some of the pieces of ***software that are out there. Do they have the support out there like N2 or GP2 has? NO! We the people give new life and extend the play of what are other wise "unfinished" games. -- Jim Dunphy The Pits- http://www.theuspits.com

Jim... You are placing too much importance upon those who frequent this, and any other, games-specific newsgroup. We are but a grain of sand upon the beach of consumerism, our collective voices no greater than the chirrup of the sparrow in the vastness of the forest. What we might say and do will have very little overall effect upon the sale of any game, good or otherwise. Example:- CART Precision Racing was slammed in this forum from the day it appeared as a demo. This had neglible effect on the retail sales of the game in the important pre-Christmas period. In fact, the retail soutlet with whom I am associated sold every copy they had.

Quoted text (14 lines)

> My final words on the topic are these: > If it wasn't for all the people out there doing these "hacks" and > editors I doubt that GP2 (or any other sim) would have lasted as long > as it has. It isn't perfect, far from it. These people, like Steve > Young, if nothing else have probably put money in Microprose pocket! > Look at some of the pieces of ***software that are out there. Do > they have the support out there like N2 or GP2 has? NO! We the people > give new life and extend the play of what are other wise "unfinished" > games. > -- > Jim Dunphy > The Pits- http://www.theuspits.com

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Is the new track based on the original? It could be that it was started from scratch, and that the differences in layout are too small to be seen but still significant. Otherwise, it is possible that the authors fiddled with some of the physics-parameters which are stored IN the trackfile (air resistance, acceleration....). JoH Please remove *anti-spam* from the email when replying. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= When everything else failed, we can still become im- mortal by making an enormous blunder.... John Kenneth Galbraith =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% Jim... % You are placing too much importance upon those who frequent this, and % any other, games-specific newsgroup. % We are but a grain of sand upon the beach of consumerism, our collective % voices no greater than the chirrup of the sparrow in the vastness of the % forest. % What we might say and do will have very little overall effect upon the % sale of any game, good or otherwise. % Example:- CART Precision Racing was slammed in this forum from the day % it appeared as a demo. This had neglible effect on the retail sales of % the game in the important pre-Christmas period. In fact, the retail % soutlet with whom I am associated sold every copy they had. We are not necessarily trying to influence the "sucker born every minute" customer, but the actual producers of "quality" "racing" "simulations". Those programmers/designers/companines that are truly committed to creating a "true" racing simulation. The hungry mob that is trying to feed their "every new game" jones won't and don't pay attention to this group. This group is basically for the hard-core sim-junkies (and occassional trollers, idiots, and usual Usent riff-raff). -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Maybe if we were a little bit more vocal someone might hear! That is to the right people. -- Jim Dunphy The Pits- http://www.theuspits.com > Jim... > You are placing too much importance upon those who frequent this, and > any other, games-specific newsgroup. > We are but a grain of sand upon the beach of consumerism, our collective > voices no greater than the chirrup of the sparrow in the vastness of the > forest. > What we might say and do will have very little overall effect upon the > sale of any game, good or otherwise. > Example:- CART Precision Racing was slammed in this forum from the day > it appeared as a demo. This had neglible effect on the retail sales of > the game in the important pre-Christmas period. In fact, the retail > soutlet with whom I am associated sold every copy they had. cut...

Well up to this point, at least for GP2 we haven't had any support from the manufacture. I would have like to have seen a patch for GP2. Since the only sort of patches have come from the people out here, I'll support them and not Microprose. If there is to be a GP3 I hope things change. Up to this point Microprose, or it's author ( shame on you Geoff ), has done little, I'm being generious, nothing to support this game. Someone got rich from the 2 million or so copies sold. How about putting a little bit back to the people who gave them their BMW's? -- Jim Dunphy The Pits- www.theuspits.com > We are having a talk concerning the companies involvement in the group in > the thread named: > Programmer/Publisher group posts > Perhaps we can get them involved more and in a better way. > Harald. > Jim Dunphy heeft geschreven in bericht > My final words on the topic are these: > If it wasn't for all the people out there doing these "hacks" and > editors I doubt that GP2 (or any other sim) would have lasted as long as it > has. It isn't perfect, far from it. These people, like Steve Young, if > nothing else have probably put money in Microprose pocket! Look at some of > the pieces of ***software that are out there. Do they have the support out > there like N2 or GP2 has? NO! We the people give new life and extend the > play of what are other wise "unfinished" games. > -- > Jim Dunphy > The Pits- www.theuspits.com

See the problem here is I actually give a shit about what kind of product you and I buy and the quality of it. If we don't speak up and keep buying "unfinished and inaccurate" software, we have no one to blame buy our selves when the next piece of ***hits the shelves. It's not bad enough that the programmers have and are getting sloppier and lazy with there programs, writing programs of 100+ MB or more that only a year ago could be done with less than have that amount of code but we are forced to endure just bad games. Until we say ENOUGH!! we will get nothing better and don't deserve it. -- Jim Dunphy The Pits- www.theuspits.com > On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:19:28 +1000 Bruce Kennewell > % Jim... > % You are placing too much importance upon those who frequent this, and > % any other, games-specific newsgroup. > % We are but a grain of sand upon the beach of consumerism, our collective > % voices no greater than the chirrup of the sparrow in the vastness of the > % forest. > % What we might say and do will have very little overall effect upon the > % sale of any game, good or otherwise. > % Example:- CART Precision Racing was slammed in this forum from the day > % it appeared as a demo. This had neglible effect on the retail sales of > % the game in the important pre-Christmas period. In fact, the retail > % soutlet with whom I am associated sold every copy they had. > We are not necessarily trying to influence the "sucker born every > minute" customer, but the actual producers of "quality" "racing" > "simulations". Those programmers/designers/companines that are truly > committed to creating a "true" racing simulation. The hungry mob that > is trying to feed their "every new game" jones won't and don't pay > attention to this group. This group is basically for the hard-core > sim-junkies (and occassional trollers, idiots, and usual Usent > riff-raff). > -- > **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Now THAT should be the slogan for RAS!! Simple, straight to the point and it rhymes! :o) > we have no one to blame buy our selves when the next piece of ***>hits the shelves. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

No please, no more patches :o). I dont think Ubisoft will be patching their F1RS2, cause how "well" it worked with F1RS. I did some online racing with F1RS and the confussion on which of the patches the online racing worked best was total. The standing question was always - Which patch are you using? IMO it's okay to patch if there is a serious bug, or if the game doesn't work on a certain system (which is a serious bug), or there is a new 3D standard after the release, etc, but when the patches start to add features that should of been in the release then the line is crossed :o). If we accept this then we take the risk of never getting finished products in the future. Another thing with patches is that far from everybody who buy games are connected to the internet, thus having real problems getting the patches. Yet another thing is that writing patches is very, very time consuming, time much better spent on starting to work on the next version of the game. If I were producer of a racing sim I would get a lot of beta testers to drive it before it gets released, wait with the release until all planned features were working for hours without crashes on any of the most common systems, choose the beta testers so most of the systems get covered, AMD, Intel and Cyrix processorer, 3Dfx, rendition cards, etc. If there still were a serious bug after we released it, then I would turn the company upside down for the reason why we didn't find that bug before the release. A patch would be available both on the net and on every CD that comes along with a magazine. It seems as if this is the way Papyrus works :o). Their products has always worked perfectly out of the box. I bought GP2 for around 50 USD and drove it for 800 hours, I say Geoff has earned his fortune if he made one :o). /Christer, never believed that GP2 needed patching, we need a GP3, though, Geoff :o)

Quoted text (40 lines)

> Well up to this point, at least for GP2 we haven't had any support from the > manufacture. I would have like to have seen a patch for GP2. Since the only > sort of patches have come from the people out here, I'll support them and not > Microprose. If there is to be a GP3 I hope things change. Up to this point > Microprose, or it's author ( shame on you Geoff ), has done little, I'm being > generious, nothing to support this game. Someone got rich from the 2 million > or so copies sold. How about putting a little bit back to the people who gave > them their BMW's? > -- > Jim Dunphy > The Pits- http://www.theuspits.com > > We are having a talk concerning the companies involvement in the group in > > the thread named: > > Programmer/Publisher group posts > > Perhaps we can get them involved more and in a better way. > > Harald. > > Jim Dunphy heeft geschreven in bericht > > My final words on the topic are these: > > If it wasn't for all the people out there doing these "hacks" and > > editors I doubt that GP2 (or any other sim) would have lasted as long as it > > has. It isn't perfect, far from it. These people, like Steve Young, if > > nothing else have probably put money in Microprose pocket! Look at some of > > the pieces of ***software that are out there. Do they have the support out > > there like N2 or GP2 has? NO! We the people give new life and extend the > > play of what are other wise "unfinished" games. > > -- > > Jim Dunphy > > The Pits- http://www.theuspits.com

Quoted text (8 lines)

>We are not necessarily trying to influence the "sucker born every >minute" customer, but the actual producers of "quality" "racing" >"simulations". Those programmers/designers/companines that are truly >committed to creating a "true" racing simulation. The hungry mob that >is trying to feed their "every new game" jones won't and don't pay >attention to this group. This group is basically for the hard-core >sim-junkies (and occassional trollers, idiots, and usual Usent >riff-raff).

Michael, thanks for taking the words out of my mouth. I remember actually flaming MTM2 here, and I got a couple of e-mails from MS lurkers. I got into a good thread with 1 and a "reply-thats-all" with another, and I understood how those people think of us. We're a bunch of crazy people who are only 0.1% of their targeted market. But like you said Michael, and this thread somehow relates to the Programmer/Publisher thread also, we hope someday that our input will infact have a better opinion to upcoming racing titles, not for our personal benefit, but also to the benefit of each and every occasional gamers who buy any sort of racing title. At least lets continue to have some discussions here, and someday maybe they will learn that by communicating with us, it can only benefit their products. So, this is a direct message to all of you "official company reps and lurkers" : "Don't fear r.a.s. Know how to approach us, and you will only benefit from our opinion, knowledge and argumentation" But is this really the point of r.a.s. ?? Are we really on a mission to "save" the earth from those mighty bad racing games ? ;-) Let's at least try to continue on the good side here, I've never seen a cleaner newsgroup in years here.+ - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

Quoted text (8 lines)

> Bruce, > When the first illegal editors started to appear for GP2 we in Customer > Services told by our QA people who were told by Geoff that all functions of > GP2 are NOT seperate.. Editing the car designed will effect sound or > performace, editing the sounds affect the AI, etc etc. Each part of GP2 was > written in a special way to check the validity of the other parts. This is > as I have said the information we were presented with.

No wonder the game is so bogged down. It checks other parts of the game all the time. THat really seems like a stupid thing to do.

Quoted text (34 lines)

> All MicroProse products have licence aggreements which have now been tighted > to prevent any future editors on future games which would result in legal > charges. The programs are our copyright and the copyright of the authors > (in the case of GP2 - Geoff Crammond) and not subject to disassembling by > anyone without permission. > Regards, > Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe > ====== > >Well, if that is the case, why not issue an official media announcement > >clarifying the position? > >There are innumerable *** magazines out there and I'm sure that the > >editors of every one would welcome your statement. > >So how about it, Mr. Rich? > >> Jo, > >> If you don't beleive I am at MicroProse-Europe Customer Services try > calling > >> us one day on the telephone. > >-- > >Regards, > >Bruce. > >---------- > >The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- > >http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

-- Thank You Marc Johnson Outside of a dog, a book is a mans best friend. Inside of a dog, it is too dark to read -Groucho Marx