Bethesda's Burnout - Players Choice Edition Release Date Nov. 98

First of all, no I have nothing against Bethsoft. They are new to the SimRacing market, and they will learn from their errors. IMHO, they spent too much time making patches AFTER the release, they should at least done a targeting market report on what is good and what is not. IMHO always, this is mostly my little opinion. Same thing can be said to Papyrus. It's normal you like the company, since you are a beta testor for them. I don't recall them asking us in public (best exemple would be r.a.s.) about what we want or what we don't want. It's a normal job for a beta tester to actually help them on what they want or not. So they aren't better than any company on the market, they just do their job well. Hmm, they aren't the first SimRacing title to receive it. I don't like this. Especially the day (maybe even before) the game is out. It's more "Hey guys buy our product. There is some flaw so buy it, and wait in 8months for a better version, since the one you will buy isn't perfect". Same thing goes for C:PR (who is "supposed" to have a version 2), TOCA, etc... Like I said, they aren't the only company who does this. Microprose did some research for Gp2, same thing for Papyrus. They are doing a business, and the poinf of this is to go take the customer to buy an actual title. Normal marketing. Nothing "better" here. Hehe "legend". Oook. ;-) Finally, I know that this is a "between the line" punt to Papyrus. I know this, you know that Don. I know since years in the SimRacing community, and just by your words I know you don't like Papyrus job (for many reason, and don't tell me one of them is that you aren't testing there). But I never said it was "bad", it's just obvious for me (but not to the everybody Simracer). I don't flame you not at all, I just wonder if the point of this post or nothing more than : "Check this out everybody and Papyrus. I am beta tertOr for Bethsoft, and they actually listen to the beta tertOrs.". All in <ironic>, but there is some fact here. Nothing against you, but it's just obvious. I wouldn't be surprised if you cross-posted this in T.g.s.n. <g> ;-) Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) --"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

>I know that Julian Data, Already a legend in the Sim World, If I wasn't laughing so hard I would think this was a troll. Legend. Right. Hey, all you fellas are legends. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

"ymenard", I think you hit the nail on the head !! Since when does a few people on the inside ( BETA TESTERS ) speak for the WHOLE sim world ? Last time I asked about this sim only got one responce , not from the guy who posted this orinally . I just get tired of some of the few selected so-called sim expert gurus who get to beta test , and tell us things like this >>> Oh I got to do this for these people ! If you are going to brag about it , save some time , just look in the mirror , you will see the person who is really interested in it. As for info , reviews & new ideas , things like that will keep people interested. I tend to listen to either Doug Broda or Dave Thurman, they un-biased reviews of many racing sims in the last months Read some of them at the below URL , sim review page :: http://sim***world.simplenet.com

>First of all, no I have nothing against Bethsoft. They are new to the >SimRacing market, and they will learn from their errors. >IMHO, they spent too much time making patches AFTER the release, they should >at least done a targeting market report on what is good and what is not. >IMHO always, this is mostly my little opinion. And yet, F1RS is now on it's what??? It's 9th patch? I don't hear folks howling because they are listening to their customers. BTW. Ubisoft have released these 9 patches in about 6 months...How long did it take Papyrus to get ONE patch out for N2?

Hey, I think we need to give Bethesda a break here. First thing, they did do a drag racing sim, something no one else wanted to touch. Second, they did a damn good job of it out the box. Third, They take the time to listen to their customers and redo certain things they may not have gotten right. Fourth, A player's edition would be fantastic, because in beginning development, you never know how things are going to go over with the public. Now they know what we want and are able to give it to us. Finally, This is an example of a development company doing all they can to make their product the best it can be. Imagine if they had released the game without any support, didn't do any patches, and didn't do anything to improve the gameplay of the game. A couple of beta testers can't give the feedback to Bethsoft that a bunch of speed crazed nitro breathing lunatics that make up the Burnout community can. Hey, some of us really appreciate what Bethsoft has done for their game. Id software did this with Quake and Quake II and look at what those games have become. Without support from the developer, the game can never be the best it will be Enjoy the view of my Taillights, Russ

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>>I know that Julian Data, Already a legend in the Sim World, >If I wasn't laughing so hard I would think this was a troll. >Legend. Right. Hey, all you fellas are legends. >-- >Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

THEN PAPY HAD TO COME OUT WITH A PATCH FOR THE PATCH :) Robert "GT86" Platts BlackHole MotorSports http://www.ivga.com/bhmotorsports Pro Series Racing League http://home.earthlink.net/~garywin

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>>First of all, no I have nothing against Bethsoft. They are new to the >>SimRacing market, and they will learn from their errors. >>IMHO, they spent too much time making patches AFTER the release, they >should >>at least done a targeting market report on what is good and what is not. >>IMHO always, this is mostly my little opinion. > And yet, F1RS is now on it's what??? It's 9th patch? I don't hear folks >howling because they are listening to their customers. BTW. Ubisoft have >released these 9 patches in about 6 months...How long did it take Papyrus

to >get ONE patch out for N2?

Russell, thank you for putting Don's message in the proper perspective. I don't pretend to speak for Don or anyone else but when you see a company taking the direction that Bethesda has decided to, than I will more than openly give my full support! What Don can't go into detail about, because of NDA's is a much bigger game plan that is starting to take place. I think he has a reason to be e***d and all of us will just have to wait and see what unfolds. The fact that the company has chosen to listen to us, the end user is different from most of the other software houses. How do I know because I have tested for a few others. Do I have any supposed bias? No because I have enjoyed everyone of my associations and continue to do work for several of them. Am I a legend! Don't think so! Does, Julian think he is a legend? Doubt it very much! Is he good? Yes, better than most. Is what Julian is now doing going to benefit us the end user? Yes, because he is taking his real life engine and chassis building experience and putting it into the guts of a computer sim. Perhaps the fact he can take a V6 Buick Grand National(his former street car) and get it to run 7.85 at 180+ in the quarter mile impresses the hell out of me! Pete

Greg, whats the definition of a Legend? There are many things that a person may or may not be judged upon. I suspect its up to an individual to decide whether somebody is a legend. If Don thinks, Julian is a Legend thats his perogative. If Don is enthusiastic about somebodys abilities or products, he is free to make those claims. Whether you or I choose to hold with those same beliefs is another matter. But I would probably be right in assuming(and yes I know what this word breaks down into) that if you asked anybody that follows this news group or others like it, or had spent any time on Hawaii or Ten, you would know who these two people are! Legendary, infamous up to you to decide! But if I asked people who you are! What answers would we recieve! Pete P.S. Haven't achieved legendary status, but thank you for considering me!

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> >I know that Julian Data, Already a legend in the Sim World, > If I wasn't laughing so hard I would think this was a troll. > Legend. Right. Hey, all you fellas are legends. > -- > Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

Francois, now lets get your opinions correct! ------------------- Bethesda is new to the sim market they will learn from their mistakes! This is true! They have decided to take a different approach, lets ask the consumer what he wants! Just like very other sim maker out there! Whoops, i'm sorry I have never been asked before! Guess, you missed that one! ------------------ Spend too much time making patches! Hmmm, double edged sword here! We could go the route of some companies and never do a patch. No names mentioned. But lets do a sequel every year. Or we could do a patch only because thousands of people scream we will never buy your products as long as we live. Or we could do dozens of patches until we get it right. Or we could ask everybody what they want to see in the game and then try and get somebody with a working knowledge of that sim and then get it right. --------------------- Hmmm tough call! Individual has a problem with a software company, so that means if he likes something it must be terrible. So lets trash him. Well I have no axe to grind with Papy, in fact, I think I have a pretty good one with them. So does that mean I to am blacklisted because I might agree with Don? I don't always agree with him and in fact have disagreed more times then not. ----------------------- You don't like the fact that people hype the games before its release. Ok why don't you erase GPL from your hard drive right now and show them shameless hussies what you think! ----------------------- No company ever has the right to bring out a new or revised product because if they had done the perfect game the first go round there would never be the need. Yikes, if your right the software world will come to a standstill. No new games, no upgrades taking into account better coding, faster graphics faster hardware. Dam your tough! I just hope you show the same zeal in refusing to buy Nascar3. How dare them take advantage of us like this!!! You are truly visionary in your outlook! Stick to your guns and refuse GP3 and Cart Racing. Snub your nose at them. Show them what the real world is all about. -------------------- They aren't the only comapny doing this! Your right they all openly solict our points of view and ask us to tell us what we want to see in their next game! I will be on the phone in the morning giving them shit! I missed their postings and I will ask why they don't ever ask these questions at other companies when I'm beta testing for them. -------------------------- Don is making a veiled attempt to have us all trash Papy.Its all hidden in the text through sub-liminal messages. Julian Data is a legend! Your right, dam! I missed this one entirely! What would I ever do without your translations! --------------------------- By the way I am not flaming you! I'm just having trouble flowing this thread as English is my first language! Je ne ce pas! (ymenard) Pete

> Greg, whats the definition of a Legend? There are many things >that a person may or may not be judged upon. I suspect its up to an >individual to decide whether somebody is a legend. If Don thinks, Julian >is a Legend thats his perogative. If Don is enthusiastic about somebodys If I want to laugh about it, that is my perogative :-) Hey no problem. I am no legend and don't claim to be. I just claim to like Formula One racing games ( I do quite a bit of nascar2 over the modem with a friend though). As I recall Mr data was giving me ***about 3dfx graphics in racing games. I thought he was full of ***back then, and still do. I figured F1RS would prove everyone wrong, and it has. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

Dave, perhaps you didn't see the post, but the top ten requests from all users will be implemented or at least will try to be. As far as beta testing goes, yes it isn't fair that some get to do it and others don't. Bragging, isn't the way to do it. But sometimes when somebody asks why I should be able to answer a question and not others well maybe all those untold, non-paid hours I have put in sometimes have allowed me a better insight as to what is happeneing. As far as helping anyone, I certainly try! If somebody asks for my setups out right I will say no. But, if you want help in learning how to go faster I try. There have been a few people where I have not got back to with email because some days, I get 75 or more and they get lost, but not intentionally If you want to beta test all you have to do is ask! I have asked many times and got excepted. I have also been asked to do it. I spend far too many hours playing and testing but thats my choice. If I manage to contribute in some small way I'm happy! Pete

I don't recall the message, but if I get the drift of your message correctly, then, yes, I would agree with you. If enough time and effort is put into something then it can be done properly. But in this day and age it doesn't seem to be the norm. When, I yell at my head office for installing some crappy application on my system and they tell me the fixes I have suggested can't be done! And I suggest how they might do it. They offer me a job and tell me to come fix it. But I haven't taken them up on it yet! :-) The 3dfx does if my understanding is correct, from my friends who are coders is easier to program for than many other cards. Time is money and its the law of the land. So thats what becomes the standard and then you can either fight or switch. Rightly or wrongly! Pete

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> > Hey no problem. I am no legend and don't claim to be. I just claim > to like Formula One racing games ( I do quite a bit of nascar2 over > the modem with a friend though). As I recall Mr data was giving me > ***about 3dfx graphics in racing games. I thought he was full > of ***back then, and still do. I figured F1RS would prove everyone > wrong, and it has. > -- > Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

For what?...They seem to be doing pretty good with a hit on their hands. Tantrum aside... Yes. Burnout, yes...X-Car, no - They left everyone hangin' in the breeze on this title. That's what beta-testing's for. A few patches aside, why should someone have to either pay extra, or download a huge update, that wasn't thought-out for the initial release? I like developing products, but hate to think that the Burnout copy I have is more or less out-dated a month (or so) after it hit the shelves. Bad form. They should have an ear to the rails before release. I think they knew, however, what many drag-racing-die-hards wanted many moons back. They're doing a fine job with Burnout. X-Car. X-Car. <cough> X-Car. This may be so, but having betas shields the company from a TON of silly e-mail. As do I. If Bethesda handles things right, Burnout may just become another sim-classic. I see your lights, didn't you see the blue flag?...You're about to be lapped! ;) Cheers! Marc -- Marc J. Nelson Sim Racing News - http://www.simnews.com <remove '_*_' before replying>

Marc, you have made some very good points. And I won't rehash what has already been said. I agree that things may have been done incorrectly in the past and this does mean that you fix it or suffer the consequences. Regardless, of what some people may think the beta testers have had a positive influence on the game since its release. I know I may get trashed for blowing my own horn or that of some of the others but i'll all come out in the wash eventually. As far as deflecting criticism from the company, maybe, but all the concerns expressed here, have found there way back to the powers that be. Good bad or indifferent. I have answered any questions raised on my own with no coaching or encouragement from anybody. And any opinions I have expressed are my own views. Right or wrong. The coders are still too busy trying to track down little bugs to rectify and thats where they should be. Pete > > Hey, I think we need to give Bethesda a break here. > For what?...They seem to be doing pretty good with a hit on their > hands. > > First thing, they did do a drag racing sim, something no one else wanted to

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> > touch. > Tantrum aside... > > Second, they did a damn good job of it out the box. > Yes. > > Third, They take the time to listen to their customers and redo

certain

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> > things they may not have gotten right. > Burnout, yes...X-Car, no - They left everyone hangin' in the breeze > on this title. > > Fourth, A player's edition would be fantastic, because in beginning > > development, you never know how things are going to go over with the

public.

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> That's what beta-testing's for. A few patches aside, why should > someone have to either pay extra, or download a huge update, that > wasn't thought-out for the initial release? I like developing > products, but hate to think that the Burnout copy I have is more > or less out-dated a month (or so) after it hit the shelves. > > Now they know what we want and are able to give it to us. > Bad form. They should have an ear to the rails before release. I > think they knew, however, what many drag-racing-die-hards wanted > many moons back. > > Finally, This is an example of a development company doing all they can

to

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> > make their product the best it can be. > They're doing a fine job with Burnout. > > Imagine if they had released the > > game without any support, > X-Car. > > didn't do any patches, > X-Car. > > and didn't do anything to improve the gameplay of the game. > <cough> X-Car. > > A couple of > > beta testers can't give the > > feedback to Bethsoft that a bunch of speed crazed nitro breathing

lunatics

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> > that make up the Burnout community can. > This may be so, but having betas shields the company from a TON > of silly e-mail. > > Hey, some of us really appreciate > > what Bethsoft has done for their game. > As do I. > > Id software did this with Quake and > > Quake II and look at what those games have become. Without support

from the

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> > developer, the game can never be the best it will be > If Bethesda handles things right, Burnout may just become another > sim-classic. > > Enjoy the view of my Taillights, > I see your lights, didn't you see the blue flag?...You're about to > be lapped! ;) > Cheers! > Marc > -- > Marc J. Nelson > Sim Racing News - http://www.simnews.com > <remove '_*_' before replying>

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>> Hey, I think we need to give Bethesda a break here. >For what?...They seem to be doing pretty good with a hit on their >hands. >> First thing, they did do a drag racing sim, something no one else wanted to >> touch. >Tantrum aside...

HAHAHA............Um why has there been no info on this tasty piece of vaporware from Tantrum lately? Oh wait it must be in the stores, it's already past the end of April......oops I mean the the end of May is coming fast :^) Cmon Tantrum, do you want my money or not? hehehe Bob

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> HAHAHA............Um why has there been no info on this tasty piece of > vaporware from Tantrum lately? > Oh wait it must be in the stores, it's already past the end of April......oops > I mean the the end of May is coming fast :^) > Cmon Tantrum, do you want my money or not? > hehehe > Bob

Good things come to those... -- (please remove '_*_' when replying) Sim Racing News - http://www.simnews.com The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

First of all, sorry for being late, but Im sure some people know I was involved in a car accident (how ironic life is...). Pete wrote: > Francois, now lets get your opinions correct! >------------------- Fran?ois !!! ;-) >>Bethesda is new to the sim market they will learn from their mistakes! >This is true! They have decided to take a different approach, lets ask >the consumer what he wants! Just like very other sim maker out there! >Whoops, i'm sorry I have never been asked before! Guess, you missed that >one! Naw, it's more "lets aks our beta testOr what he wants!". I never saw any Bethsoft rep asking us "Hey guys your all what makes us live, so what do you want in the game, what you want to be fixed, etc...". They just do like any other company. Don, as he did in the other newsgroup (T.g.s.n.), thinks that they are the God of SimRacing (hehe everybody knows it me ;-))) ) because they ask HIM and the other beta testOrs (hehe with Don it's testOrs, not testers (inside joke)). Just look out the T.g.n.s. newsgroup. There is TEN and Papyrus there posting and asking us what do WE, the normal SimRacing community, what do we want. So it's Beta Testers AND Mr. Everybody. I don't see this comming from bethsoft, so I don't know why Don thinks like this. Btw, I have nothing against Don, I know him since many years, and this post is somehow serious and also humoristic between him and me.

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>>Spend too much time making patches! >Hmmm, double edged sword here! We could go the route of some companies >and never do a patch. No names mentioned. But lets do a sequel every year. >Or we could do a patch only because thousands of people scream we will >never >buy your products as long as we live. Or we could do dozens of patches >until we >get it right. Or we could ask everybody what they want to see in the game >and then >try and get somebody with a working knowledge of that sim and then get it >right.

Well, I perhaps mis-wrote this quote. What I want to say is that... You know when Burnout went on the shelves.. well just 2days after it's release they were already saying that they were working on Burnout2 (IMHO that was an error from them). That's a good way to get rid of the hype LOL. Instead it looks they took a different approach, since they saw that the original product had too many flaws to make people buy a better version (all hype lost). They worked on it, but it clearly evident that they shipped the product way too soon. What I wanted to say is "Work on a better version instead of shipping it fast, so you spend less time making patches !".

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>Hmmm tough call! >Individual has a problem with a software company, so that means if he likes >something it must be terrible. So lets trash him. >Well I have no axe to grind with Papy, in fact, I think I have a pretty >good one >with them. So does that mean I to am blacklisted because I might agree with >Don? I don't always agree with him and in fact have disagreed more times >then not.

No problem with BethSoft. I actually like what they are doing with the SHRA league (it's the only SimRacing company who actually cares about multiplayer racing, with Papyrus (No I am not including Microsoft)). I am just making evident some fact about Don, and his relation with Burnout. Many examples like this could be found on the T.g.s.n. newsgroup, where he (this is resumed) "Geeze Papyrus you suck looks at Bethsoft they did a better job with Burnout". And here is another evident post, but for the entire SimRacing community, not only targeted at Papyrus. It's not a conspiracy theory about Bethsoft paying Don for telling stuff like that, but it's close. Just look about 2days ago Don posted : "SHRA goes international !!!" Uh so ? It's the Internet ? that was soo evident. It looked like SPAM. Or better : "ORDER BURNOUT. CALL 1-800-567-5309". Geeze no wonder why I wrote in this header "This infomercial was paid in part by Bethsoft Inc." >You don't like the fact that people hype the games before its release. >Ok why don't you erase GPL from your hard drive right now and show >them shameless hussies what you think! Who said that I have GPL on my HD ;-) . Seriously, thats mainly in part that we KNOW it will be good. You know it's like a Star Wars movie. It's Science-Fiction. There is MANY SciFi Movies, but they sometimes hype too much (like Independance Day or somehow GodZilla, who all sucked and had BIG hype). But when you see the same thing for Star Wars, you just know this ain't Godzilla, it's a Star Wars movie, it HAS to be good. Same thing goes with Papyrus titles. Analogy well said I think. Bethsoft last racing game is Micro Machines (lol it was still fun), so there is no base where we can say "according to previous titles, it can't suck".

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>No company ever has the right to bring out a new or revised product >because if they had done the perfect game the first go round there would >never be the need. >Yikes, if your right the software world will come to a standstill. No new >games, >no upgrades taking into account better coding, faster graphics faster >hardware. >Dam your tough! I just hope you show the same zeal in refusing to buy >Nascar3. >How dare them take advantage of us like this!!! >You are truly visionary in your outlook! Stick to your guns and refuse GP3 >and >Cart Racing. Snub your nose at them. Show them what the real world is all >about.

Haha over-quoting. I know that would be the perfect world. There is no white-black in SimRacing, it's all grey. There is no perfect game or "too crap to exist" game. They all have good or bad points, and they can be big or little bad/good points. There is a limit still. Don't pass all year doing patches, or you will never be competitive against the others. I remember Mike Lescault from Papyrus saying "Heck we could continue to make Nascar1 better with patches today, but what would be the benifit ? Those people who work on patches aren't there to make a newer better version 2". >They aren't the only comapny doing this! Agree, "Move along, move along" (Star Wars reference)

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>Don is making a veiled attempt to have us all trash Papy.Its all hidden in >the >text through sub-liminal messages. Julian Data is a legend! >Your right, dam! I missed this one entirely! What would I ever do without >your >translations!

Yep, that true. Even if Don will never said it publicly, I KNOW that. I'm sure he's ROTF reading this presently. Heh Don, am I true ;-) It's just that Mr. Everybody won't really all understand my post, it's more a semi-opinion to Don Wilshe, Ahhh the Don King of Racing. > By the way I am not flaming you! I'm just having trouble flowing this >thread as English is my first language! Same thing here. And writing with 1 arm (the other is fractured at 2places). And Im still able to race with my wheel !! (can't brake or press gas, my knees hurt too much). So I have my GP1 wheel with brake on the left peddle, gas on the left red button, and steering with the same hand !!) >Je ne ce pas! (ymenard) I don't this know ? (translation) ;-) "Je ne sais pas"

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>ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote: >> First of all, no I have nothing against Bethsoft. They are new to the >> SimRacing market, and they will learn from their errors. >> IMHO, they spent too much time making patches AFTER the release, they >should >> at least done a targeting market report on what is good and what is not. >> IMHO always, this is mostly my little opinion. >> Same thing can be said to Papyrus. It's normal you like the company, >since >> you are a beta testor for them. I don't recall them asking us in public >> (best exemple would be r.a.s.) about what we want or what we don't want. >> It's a normal job for a beta tester to actually help them on what they >want >> or not. So they aren't better than any company on the market, they just >do >> their job well. >>PCE is Players Choice Edition. >> Hmm, they aren't the first SimRacing title to receive it. >> I don't like this. Especially the day (maybe even before) the game is >out. >> It's more "Hey guys buy our product. There is some flaw so buy it, and >wait >> in 8months for a better version, since the one you will buy isn't >perfect". >> Same thing goes for C:PR (who is "supposed" to have a version 2), TOCA, >> etc.. >> Like I said, they aren't the only company who does this. Microprose did >some >> research for Gp2, same thing for Papyrus. They are doing a business, and >> the poinf of this is to go take the customer to buy an actual title. >Normal >> marketing. Nothing "better" here >> Hehe "legend". Oook. ;-) >> Finally, I know that this is a "between the line" punt to Papyrus. I >know >> this, you know that Don. I know since years in the SimRacing community, >and >> just by your words I know you don't like Papyrus job (for many reason, >and >> don't tell me one of them is that you aren't testing there). But I never >> said it was "bad", it's just obvious for me (but not to the everybody >> Simracer). >> I don't flame you not at all, I just wonder if the point of this post or >> nothing more than : >> "Check this out everybody and Papyrus. I am beta tertOr for Bethsoft, and >> they actually listen to the beta tertOrs.". >> All in <ironic>, but there is some fact here. Nothing against you, but >it's >> just obvious. I wouldn't be surprised if you cross-posted this in >T.g.s.n. >> <g> ;-) >> Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) >> Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. >> Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club >> Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) >> Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) >> --"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't >realise >> how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

Ymenard: We need to get you a 3dfx card and let you test BURNOUT. He he Yes you have discovered my cover. My current contract with Bethesda is for $1,000,000 a year. Dam Canadian dollars... Don Wilshe Ymenard I have never doubted you were a friend.. Thanks for the lengthly input!!!

Perhaps, you should visit SHRA.com and then the Launchpad and read the news being posted there. Or you could go up on where.to.race or epix servers and see the people participating in the testing and giving input into the game. Your being out of touch with reality amazes me at times. Especially, when you make statements on products that you don't like because they don't have a***pit. Whether Don, thinks he is God of Ten or ras or what ever shouldn't be the thing that is biasing your views on a game. It wasn't that long ago that you kept reminding us how you where the leader of this newsgroup because you could post the most diatribe on here. If thats what you are basing your opinions then you must have some special ability that most of us aren't capable of achieveing! What does Don's opinion of another product have to do with the discussion of burnout? If I give an opinion of one aspect of *** that you don't like, that means all other points of view I make are flawed as a result of this! You missed the point of this thread completely! Not surprisingly! F1RS has released 9 patches now! How many patches has Ten and Papy made to Nascar2? At least they are concerned about getting it right! I don't know of very many companies that get it right first time out of the box! Perhaps, you could list those masterpieces for the rest of us! Of course you haven't been able to follow the thread in regards to the beta testers and other suggesting the game wasn't done correctly and Bethsoft deciding to make the corrections required. But this point seems to escape the idealic world you live in! What!!!!!!!!!!! No problem with Bethsoft!!!!!!!! You have been trashing them in every post! Boy are you ever a switch hitter! You jump from one side of the plate to the other with the grace of a drunk! Yes all us beta testers are being paid mega bucks for doing this work! If Don is exuberant about this product, then he should be severally reprimanded it for it! How dare him express his feelings, when he hasn't recieved permission from the leader of ras! The reason he posted the message on where to get Burnout was because it was soldout and not available in all markets. But again Bethesda should have got written approval from you before ever attempting to do this! Ahhh, Papy makes good products but nobody else can! Terrific logic again, my appologies! Sorry, I over quoted you! Its so easy to get carried away with your sound reasoning at times. Some day I will take mind up reading so that I too can follow the line of thinking you are using. Sorry, french isn't my first language! But I was trying to express the thought you are a strange person to understand at times!

Pete and I wrote in a lengthy thread:

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>> Naw, it's more "lets aks our beta testOr what he wants!". I never saw >any >> Bethsoft rep asking us "Hey guys your all what makes us live, so what do >you >> want in the game, what you want to be fixed, etc...". They just do like >any >> other company. Don, as he did in the other newsgroup (T.g.s.n.), thinks >> that they are the God of SimRacing (hehe everybody knows it me ;-))) ) >> because they ask HIM and the other beta testOrs (hehe with Don it's >testOrs, >> not testers (inside joke)). > Perhaps, you should visit SHRA.com and then the Launchpad and read the >news being posted there. Or you could go up on where.to.race or epix >servers and >see the people participating in the testing and giving input into the game. >Your being >out of touch with reality amazes me at times. Especially, when you make >statements on >products that you don't like because they don't have a cockpit. > Whether Don, thinks he is God of Ten or ras or what ever shouldn't be the >thing >that is biasing your views on a game. It wasn't that long ago that you >kept reminding us >how you where the leader of this newsgroup because you could post the most >diatribe on >here. If thats what you are basing your opinions then you must have some >special ability >that most of us aren't capable of achieveing!

I understand your point, but I still don't see them here. Just check out what Papyrus and TEN are doing with us on the NROS. It's the same thing that Bethsoft is doing, even more. We are constantly upgrading with them the system, and let me say there is many activities at PreTEN (beta test server for TEN). And please, Don is the GOD of the GODS. He is unique in the world, and only crazy people like me can REALLY understand his machiavelic plan to destroy the whole Universe <vbfg> ;-)) Wow did I say I never tried Burnout ? I only stated that until it doesn't have a cockpit view, It cant be a realistic simulator, and only a game. IMHO. IIIIMMMHHHOOO. Yeah sure I am somehow always against Bethsoft, but do you really think it's because I don't like the effort. Nope. I am just doing the same thing I did with Microprose, Microsoft and ESPECIALLY Papyrus. If you think I have a too large mouth to help people. well go stick a shoe in it, I don't care. I know what Im doing, and be sure that on the NROS newsgroup I have put some great help on resolving some problems in the system. You just don't understand that I am not flaming those companies, just letting them always awake.

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>> Just look out the T.g.n.s. newsgroup. There is TEN and Papyrus there >> posting and asking us what do WE, the normal SimRacing community, what do >we >> want. So it's Beta Testers AND Mr. Everybody. I don't see this comming >> from bethsoft, so I don't know why Don thinks like this. >> Btw, I have nothing against Don, I know him since many years, and this >post >> is somehow serious and also humoristic between him and me. > What does Don's opinion of another product have to do with the discussion >of burnout? If I give an opinion of one aspect of gaming that you don't >like, that means >all other points of view I make are flawed as a result of this!

Ah ha ! See you don't know everything about this thread. There is a lenghty story with Don about his relation with Papyrus and the beta testing group. Why don't you think he said in another post here "Hehe Frank we must put you beta tester for Bethsoft and buy you a 3dfx card (witch I would be happy !)". There is much more here that what you think, and thats why I say that there is some people that don't understand what I said, it's normal. >> >>Spend too much time making patches! > You missed the point of this thread completely! See my above answer below. I just wrote "Spend too much time making patches!", and after quoted the paragraph under. No need to flame me on 1 little sentence, since it was the start of my explanation above. Cheap shot ;) .

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>> know when Burnout went on the shelves.. well just 2days after it's >release >> they were already saying that they were working on Burnout2 (IMHO that >was >> an error from them). That's a good way to get rid of the hype LOL. >> Instead it looks they took a different approach, since they saw that the >> original product had too many flaws to make people buy a better version >(all >> hype lost). They worked on it, but it clearly evident that they shipped >the >> product way too soon. What I wanted to say is "Work on a better version >> instead of shipping it fast, so you spend less time making patches !". > Of course you haven't been able to follow the thread in regards to >the beta testers and other suggesting the game wasn't done correctly and >Bethsoft deciding to make the corrections required. But this point seems to >escape the idealic world you live in!

"Not able to follow the thread" Huh ?? are you serious. I was just some place we call an hospital, since I was involved in a car accident. How ironic life is ! <g> and you flame me after. You just DON'T UNDERSTAND my relation between Don, Bethsoft and Papyrus.

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>SHRA >> league (it's the only SimRacing company who actually cares about >multiplayer >> racing, with Papyrus (No I am not including Microsoft)). I am just >making >> evident some fact about Don, and his relation with Burnout. Many examples >> like this could be found on the T.g.s.n. newsgroup, where he (this is >> resumed) "Geeze Papyrus you suck looks at Bethsoft they did a better job >> with Burnout". > What!!!!!!!!!!! No problem with Bethsoft!!!!!!!! You have been trashing >them >in every post! Boy are you ever a switch hitter! You jump from one side of >the >plate to the other with the grace of a drunk!

I said I don't have problems with the company, not the title. Another misunderstanding. I appreciate the effort pretty much, coming from people where the last racing game was Micro Machine 2. And you continue flaming me with some cheap shots while NOT UNDERSTANDING the whole point.

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>> not only targeted at Papyrus. It's not a conspiracy theory about >Bethsoft >> paying Don for telling stuff like that, but it's close. Just look about >> 2days ago Don posted : >> "SHRA goes international !!!" Uh so ? It's the Internet ? that was soo >> evident. It looked like SPAM. >> Or better : >> "ORDER BURNOUT. CALL 1-800-567-5309". Geeze no wonder why I wrote in this >> header "This infomercial was paid in part by Bethsoft Inc." > Yes all us beta testers are being paid mega bucks for doing this work! >If Don is exuberant about this product, then he should be severally >reprimanded it for it! >How dare him express his feelings, when he hasn't recieved permission from >the leader of ras! >The reason he posted the message on where to get Burnout was because it was >soldout >and not available in all markets. But again Bethesda should have got >written approval from >you before ever attempting to do this!

See, another flame WITHOUT UNDERSTAND THE POINT. Cheap shots. We had a good thread with some argument until you start playing the immature and writing cheap flame shots. Sorry, but I have no need to argue with this since you don't UNDERSTAND THE WHOLE POINT about this thread.

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>> >Ok why don't you erase GPL from your hard drive right now and show >> >them shameless hussies what you think! >> Who said that I have GPL on my HD ;-) . Seriously, thats mainly in part >that >> we KNOW it will be good. You know it's like a Star Wars movie. It's >> Science-Fiction. There is MANY SciFi Movies, but they sometimes hype too >> much (like Independance Day or somehow GodZilla, who all sucked and had >BIG >> hype). But when you see the same thing for Star Wars, you just know this >> ain't Godzilla, it's a Star Wars movie, it HAS to be good. >> Same thing goes with Papyrus titles. Analogy well said I think. >Bethsoft >> last racing game is Micro Machines (lol it was still fun), so there is no >> base where we can say "according to previous titles, it can't suck". > Ahhh, Papy makes good products but nobody else can! Terrific logic >again, my appologies! >> Haha over-quoting. I know that would be the perfect world. There is no >> white-black in SimRacing, it's all grey. There is no perfect game or "too >> crap to exist" game. They all have good or bad points, and they can be >big >> or little bad/good points. >> There is a limit still. Don't pass all year doing patches, or you will >never >> be competitive against the others. I remember Mike Lescault from Papyrus >> saying "Heck we could continue to make Nascar1 better with patches today, >> but what would be the benifit ? Those people who work on patches aren't >> there to make a newer better version 2". > Sorry, I over quoted you! Its so easy to get carried away with >your sound reasoning at times.

Hmm, so I won this point. Good.

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>> Yep, that true. Even if Don will never said it publicly, I KNOW that. I'm >> sure he's ROTF reading this presently. Heh Don, am I true ;-) It's just >> that Mr. Everybody won't really all understand my post, it's more a >> semi-opinion to Don Wilshe, Ahhh the Don King of Racing. > Some day I will take mind up reading so that I too can follow the >line of thinking you are using.

See, thats why I don't know why you flame me when you don't know the whole deal about me, Don, Bethsoft and Papyrus. There is soo more things than you think. And you flame me like shit because you don't understand what I am saying. Sorry but I think it's stupid. >> 2places). And Im still able to race with my ... read more »

ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in article <6l6p28$[email hidden]>... > I understand your point, but I still don't see them here. Just check out > what Papyrus and TEN are doing with us on the NROS. It's the same thing that > Bethsoft is doing, even more. We are constantly upgrading with them the > system, and let me say there is many activities at PreTEN (beta test server > for TEN). You know I would love to debate this with you but NDA's with several companies prohit me. All I can say is that you are wrong! The companies you mention all take a very different approach in dealing with game development and the approach that Bethesda has decided to undertake is unique! It is also a huge departure from the way they have done things in the past. If things continue to develope the way they are I think you will see this approach become the norm. With the benefit being better product for us the end user. > And please, Don is the GOD of the GODS. He is unique in the world, and only > crazy people like me can REALLY understand his machiavelic plan to destroy > the whole Universe <vbfg> ;-)) > Wow did I say I never tried Burnout ? I only stated that until it doesn't > have a cockpit view, It cant be a realistic simulator, and only a game. > IMHO. IIIIMMMHHHOOO. Yeah sure I am somehow always against Bethsoft, but > do you really think it's because I don't like the effort. Nope. I am just > doing the same thing I did with Microprose, Microsoft and ESPECIALLY > Papyrus. If a program realistically models something correctly then it simulates it. Just because there is no cockpit doesn't make it any less of a simulation in terms of drag racing. Yes the eye candy is nice but I would much rather have the program act realistically! The realism is what we as playtesters have been trying to achieve. The graphics will come later as will sound. If I get my way it will have it all. > If you think I have a too large mouth to help people. well go stick a shoe > in it, I don't care. I know what Im doing, and be sure that on the NROS > newsgroup I have put some great help on resolving some problems in the > system. You just don't understand that I am not flaming those companies, > just letting them always awake. I have never said that you have too large a mouth! I have never said you don't try and help people. In fact I have the highest regard for those that have the patience and take the time to help others. The way I look at it if you help solve a persons problem or difficulty in getting the game to work properly, they will have that much more time to enjoy it. There is a fine line between offering constructive criticisms and flaming a product or a person. You make your point and move on! I personally think you have crossed that line on many occasions. Everyone has a right to their opinion and I respect that but if a person wants to throw the gloves down and challenge someone or something, then you should be prepared to recieve as well as give. > Ah ha ! See you don't know everything about this thread. There is a lenghty > story with Don about his relation with Papyrus and the beta testing group. > Why don't you think he said in another post here "Hehe Frank we must put you > beta tester for Bethsoft and buy you a 3dfx card (witch I would be happy > !)". There is much more here that what you think, and thats why I say that > there is some people that don't understand what I said, it's normal. You're wrong I have heard both sides of the story from both parties and you don't know the whole story! It hasn't ever posted on ras or Ten newgroups. As far as 3dfx, wake up and smell the coffee! Its number 1 whether you like it or not! > "Not able to follow the thread" Huh ?? are you serious. I was just some > place we call an hospital, since I was involved in a car accident. How > ironic life is ! <g> and you flame me after. You just DON'T UNDERSTAND my > relation between Don, Bethsoft and Papyrus. I may know a lot more about all those parties than you think. But they can work out their own problems. > I said I don't have problems with the company, not the title. Another > misunderstanding. I appreciate the effort pretty much, coming from people > where the last racing game was Micro Machine 2. And you continue flaming me > with some cheap shots while NOT UNDERSTANDING the whole point. Ahh, your cheap shots at Don or Burnout are okay but mine against you are uncalled for! I do understand the whole point far better than you realize! > >> And here is another evident post, but for the entire SimRacing community, > >> not only targeted at Papyrus. It's not a conspiracy theory about > >Bethsoft > >> paying Don for telling stuff like that, but it's close. Just look about > >> 2days ago Don posted : > >> "SHRA goes international !!!" Uh so ? It's the Internet ? that was soo > >> evident. It looked like SPAM. > >> Or better : > >> "ORDER BURNOUT. CALL 1-800-567-5309". Geeze no wonder why I wrote in this > >> header "This infomercial was paid in part by Bethsoft Inc." As was discussed in another thread many areas have not been able to get the game. Don responded by offering a way to get the game! Yes Don gets exuberant at times and is an emotional person. But if you don't like his posts just ignore them. But if you want respond, then I feel I can as well. I don't always agree with Don but he has made some very valuable contributions in some areas and pissed people off in others. But none of us are perfect and we all make mistakes and have flaws. You also wrongly assume we are being paid to PR Burnout! We aren't we just like what we see going on behind the scenes and that can't be talked about. You aren't privy to any of this, so maybe it is hard for you to understand why we are so enthusiastic. > See, another flame WITHOUT UNDERSTAND THE POINT. Cheap shots. We had a > good thread with some argument until you start playing the immature and > writing cheap flame shots. Sorry, but I have no need to argue with this > since you don't UNDERSTAND THE WHOLE POINT about this thread. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen! Why do you persist in telling me I don't understand the whole point. Is it possible that it is you who doesn't? no > >> white-black in SimRacing, it's all grey. There is no perfect game or "too > >> crap to exist" game. They all have good or bad points, and they can be > >big > >> or little bad/good points. > >> There is a limit still. Don't pass all year doing patches, or you will > >never > >> be competitive against the others. I remember Mike Lescault from Papyrus > >> saying "Heck we could continue to make Nascar1 better with patches today, > >> but what would be the benifit ? Those people who work on patches aren't > >> there to make a newer better version 2". Not to knock Mike, as he his a nice guy! But Mike once personally told me that "a drag racing game would never cut it and there was no market for it!" Well I disagreed with him then and think that I have been vindicated by the demand that seems to be there, judging by the sales of Burnout and the upcoming NHRA Drag Racing. Maybe only us North American and Aussie fans would agree but there are a lot of drag racing fans! But to get back to your point, why would any company keep patching a game! They are in business to make money and turn a profit. This isn't going to happen if they are going to survive. You fix your serious flaws and move on to the next project. The fact that a company spends the time and effort to get the sim or game right speaks well of the fact they want to make the end user happy. So he will continue to buy their products. > > Sorry, I over quoted you! Its so easy to get carried away with > >your sound reasoning at times. > Hmm, so I won this point. Good. I was being facetious! > >> Yep, that true. Even if Don will never said it publicly, I KNOW that. I'm > >> sure he's ROTF reading this presently. Heh Don, am I true ;-) It's just

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> >> that Mr. Everybody won't really all understand my post, it's more a > >> semi-opinion to Don Wilshe, Ahhh the Don King of Racing. > > Some day I will take mind up reading so that I too can follow the > >line of thinking you are using. > See, thats why I don't know why you flame me when you don't know the

whole > deal about me, Don, Bethsoft and Papyrus. There is soo more things than you > think. And you flame me like shit because you don't understand what I am > saying. Sorry but I think it's stupid. Hmm, your the only one I don't understand! My appologies! > >> Same thing here. And writing with 1 arm (the other is fractured at > >> 2places). And Im still able to race with my wheel !! (can't brake or > >press > >> gas, my knees hurt too much). So I have my GP1 wheel with brake on the > >left > >> peddle, gas on the left red button, and steering with the same hand !!) Sorry, to hear about your accident! Hopefully, you will recover to your old self soon! :-) > I am just writing this from my opinion, but there is soo much more than you > think, and thats why you don't understand what I am saying sometimes. It > should be only me and Don in this thread, for obvious reasons. No need to > start doing cheap shots to me about past experiences I did. We should had > stayed with mature arguments, thing that I stayed in. So this is a personal vendetta against Don! Gee, I will bow out as I don't want to intrude on your private discussion. The old addage is you live by the sword you die by the sword! And the pen is mightier than the sword. or so I'm told! :-) Get well soon!

Pete and I "threaded" :

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>> I understand your point, but I still don't see them here. Just check out >> what Papyrus and TEN are doing with us on the NROS. It's the same thing >that >> Bethsoft is doing, even more. We are constantly upgrading with them the >> system, and let me say there is many activities at PreTEN (beta test >server >> for TEN). > You know I would love to debate this with you but NDA's with several >companies prohit me. All I can say is that you are wrong! The companies you >mention all take a very different approach in dealing with game development >and the approach that Bethesda has decided to undertake is unique! It is >also a huge departure from the way they have done things in the past. If >things continue to develope the way they are I think you will see this >approach >become the norm. With the benefit being better product for us the end user.

Who said that rec.autos.simulators was the only medium of conversation here... You know I would be happy to know some thing at Bethsoft. You know I have things I could say also... It's a give and take thing here... (Note you will receive some thing by the mail) I would like to know what makes Bethsoft unique... For me it's just the same thing that Papyrus and TEN is doing with beta-testers or how can I say... "selected group" of people. If it's unique and better, I would be please to see how it can be done. Still I have to agree that for a "rookie", Bethsoft is doing 10000000times better than Microsoft, Microprose and Codemaster all at the same time.

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>only >> crazy people like me can REALLY understand his machiavelic plan to >destroy >> the whole Universe <vbfg> ;-)) >> Wow did I say I never tried Burnout ? I only stated that until it doesn't >> have a cockpit view, It cant be a realistic simulator, and only a game. >> IMHO. IIIIMMMHHHOOO. Yeah sure I am somehow always against Bethsoft, >but >> do you really think it's because I don't like the effort. Nope. I am >just >> doing the same thing I did with Microprose, Microsoft and ESPECIALLY >> Papyrus. > If a program realistically models something correctly then it simulates >it. Just because there is no cockpit doesn't make it any less of a >simulation >in terms of drag racing. Yes the eye candy is nice but I would much rather >have the program act realistically! The realism is what we as playtesters >have been trying to achieve. The graphics will come later as will sound. >If I get my way it will have it all.

I just don't see Drag racers hanging on the hood or 10feet behind the car. It's my opinion on what is a simulator and what is not. If the only thing they would add would be a cockpit view (and I know its was "supposed to come", but they slowed down these days on that news), I would consider Burnout as a true drag racing simulator. Even with poor non-3dfx graphics (thats a whole other deal).

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>shoe >> in it, I don't care. I know what Im doing, and be sure that on the NROS >> newsgroup I have put some great help on resolving some problems in the >> system. You just don't understand that I am not flaming those companies, >> just letting them always awake. > I have never said that you have too large a mouth! I have never said >you don't try and help people. In fact I have the highest regard for those >that >have the patience and take the time to help others. The way I look at it if >you >help solve a persons problem or difficulty in getting the game to work >properly, >they will have that much more time to enjoy it. > There is a fine line between offering constructive criticisms and flaming >a product or a person. You make your point and move on! I personally think >you >have crossed that line on many occasions. > Everyone has a right to their opinion and I respect that but if a person >wants to throw the gloves down and challenge someone or something, then you >should be prepared to recieve as well as give.

Well, I respect the opinions of everybody, but there is a limit. If I see somebody telling "Hey DaytonaUSA is a pure hard-core racing simulator, I will correct him, not because I don't respect his opinion, but to give to the rest of the community a alternative view. This is mostly my goal here, and I know some poeple don't like this (same thing goes with the NROS). The alternative view. I won't ever "post and move along". This is just for me some sort of getting on my knees thing, I would never do this. If somebody has a different opinion, I will calmly (ok not always but MOST of the time) ask "Why ? Who ? What ? When ? Where ?". I have always the "alternative view". Any title on the market. Any companies. I don't fear being ridiculised in public (heck there is soo much past things that nobody is jumping on that last sentence). Just a way of acting, maybe is not the greatest, but I like it.

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>> Ah ha ! See you don't know everything about this thread. There is a >lenghty >> story with Don about his relation with Papyrus and the beta testing >group. >> Why don't you think he said in another post here "Hehe Frank we must put >you >> beta tester for Bethsoft and buy you a 3dfx card (witch I would be happy >> !)". There is much more here that what you think, and thats why I say >that >> there is some people that don't understand what I said, it's normal. > You're wrong I have heard both sides of the story from both parties >and you don't know the whole story! It hasn't ever posted on ras or Ten >newgroups.

Sorry, about "story" it was inside talking, nothing public whas done about this. It's from mouth to mouth, opinion to opinion, constatation to constatation, facts to facts. Heck see, even Don doesn't controdict me on this, since I am one of the few who knows about it. > As far as 3dfx, wake up and smell the coffee! Its number 1 whether >you like it or not! Im pretty happy with my Rendition card. Since I have only racing simulators and will only run them, I have no point at the moment of buying a 3dfx card. I have other places (especially in upgrading my NROS "car") to spend my money. It would only result for me at better game in F1RS and Burnout. Nothing more, no need for me to spend 180 bucks on that. Especially since 90% of my racing time comes from Papyrus simulators.

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>> "Not able to follow the thread" Huh ?? are you serious. I was just some >> place we call an hospital, since I was involved in a car accident. How >> ironic life is ! <g> and you flame me after. You just DON'T UNDERSTAND >my >> relation between Don, Bethsoft and Papyrus. > I may know a lot more about all those parties than you think. But they >can work out their own problems.

That's it !!! <That was my point, just differently said>. But don't think I know nothing, heck no !!!

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>> I said I don't have problems with the company, not the title. Another >> misunderstanding. I appreciate the effort pretty much, coming from >people >> where the last racing game was Micro Machine 2. And you continue flaming >me >> with some cheap shots while NOT UNDERSTANDING the whole point. > Ahh, your cheap shots at Don or Burnout are okay but mine against >you are uncalled for! > I do understand the whole point far better than you realize!

No !!! It's not cheap shots against Don !!! I have no problem, had no problems with him ever !!! And if the point is far better than I think (but I don't think that, lets continue somewhere else than here, I have no problem with that).

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>community, >> >> not only targeted at Papyrus. It's not a conspiracy theory about >> >Bethsoft >> >> paying Don for telling stuff like that, but it's close. Just look >about >> >> 2days ago Don posted : >> >> "SHRA goes international !!!" Uh so ? It's the Internet ? that was >soo >> >> evident. It looked like SPAM. >> >> Or better : >> >> "ORDER BURNOUT. CALL 1-800-567-5309". Geeze no wonder why I wrote in >this >> >> header "This infomercial was paid in part by Bethsoft Inc." > As was discussed in another thread many areas have not been able to get >the game. Don responded by offering a way to get the game! Yes Don gets >exuberant >at times and is an emotional person. But if you don't like his posts just >ignore them. But >if you want respond, then I feel I can as well. I don't always agree with >Don but he has >made some very valuable contributions in some areas and pissed people off >in others. >But none of us are perfect and we all make mistakes and have flaws. > You also wrongly assume we are being paid to PR Burnout! We aren't we >just like what we see going on behind the scenes and that can't be talked >about. You >aren't privy to any of this, so maybe it is hard for you to understand why >we are so >enthusiastic.

Like I said, I have nothing against Don, all the original post was a "sarcastic" and humoristic post that well resumed the last 4-5 months (can even get back a whole 2 year and a half) about me, him, and our relations with official people and companies. Don and I have to be considered in the same basket. And about Don getting paid, hehehe I know he is not, and I understand the whole enthousiastic about being beta testOr (hehe "O" ;-) ). Same thing can be said on any other companies.

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>> See, another flame WITHOUT UNDERSTAND THE POINT. Cheap shots. We had a >> good thread with some argument until you start playing the immature and >> writing cheap flame shots. Sorry, but I have no need to argue with this >> since you don't UNDERSTAND THE WHOLE POINT about this thread. > If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen! Why do you >persist in telling me I don't understand the whole point. Is it possible >that >it is you who doesn't?

Maybe. I just see the point that Bethsoft doing better than any other companies for ... read more »