Racing Sim Bashers

I just started reading this news group and I can't help but get the impression that all the whiners and Sim bashers are 14 year old's that can't drive a real car. And when the Sim doesn't get their rocks off, they start bashing it. I am at least one person that's grateful for all the time and man hours that these companies put into these racing sims. I'm not saying that all ***es are not warranted, but it seems to me that if your old enough to buy the game , you should be smart enough to figure out by examining the box if its arcade or a true Sim. Take Daytona for example, its very clear by looking at the box its a arcade game. I try to rate them overall not because its missing a view I wish it had and find it doesn't have. Hell if people would just wait a few days to find out the pros and cons of the game, then they wouldn't have to waste their money or they wouldn't have anything to *** about would they. So if it doesn't have a dashboard view, SO WHAT. How can one missing view in your opinion destroy the whole game? Personally I like the full view that most sims have, you know all you see is the road. That view usually is more life like to me and it usually gives more of a sensation of speed to me. I think a lot of us seem to forget that these Sims are still just games. My best advice is to wait and read the group, form your opinion and if it sounds good buy it, if theirs a lot of complaints don't buy it. After all it's a little too late to *** after you've thrown your money on the counter. If your a 14 year old playing with daddys computer, and has nothing better to do than whine about a dashboard view, then go to drivers training, get a license, get a real car, and turn the dammed computer off!

snip > So if it doesn't have a dashboard view, SO WHAT. How can one > missing view in your opinion destroy the whole game? Oh, it can!!! This is not limited to car simulations. Imagine Longbow2 only offered a behind-the-heli-view (TM), no serious simmer would even look at it! The word "simulation" implies realism, of course limited to the current available hardware. But flying behind your car has nothing to do with driving a car! l8er ronny snip I'd love to see you run after your car, trying to keep it on the road ;^) -- |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Ronny, Who said that you only have a chase view from the car in Burnout,I myself us the hood view, which I wish N2 and other racing sims have but lack one of the biggest draw backs to a***pit view is you see no hood, so you can't judge distances very well.I have been racing sims for 5 years now,here are games that come to mind that were suppose to be sims that arent, Daytona USA (JUNK), ABC's Indy Car (EVEN MORE JUNK), TEST DRIVE, NEED FOR SPEED 1 and 2..What makes a good sim is how realistic the car feels and,how realistic it is in setting up the car.Burnout does both of these very well.So if you choose to not buy the sim because of 1 view,thats your lost and your money.Just goto the webpage and checkout the screenshots it might change your mind.Oh yeah Xcar was meant to be a sim.Oh to answer someones question about what type cars are in the game you have the choose of over 20 cars and 20 actual tracks.The cars range from a 56 Corvette to a Rail car,you can race in bracket racing or plain heads up (which I like best in my 66 Mustang).The only draw back tot he game to me is there are only 2 fords in the game :(.Just a little Joke. This is a true Sportsman Darg Sim to me if you look at the whole game and are not limited to a view decison.OH is N2 not a sim because you don't have seprate Shocks and Spring settings or track bar adjustments,and even though you have a cocokpit view in N2 you can't see the hood, so you can judge how close to the car infront of you better,always what about the lack of making your own engines and shaving the sheetmetal for aerodynamics.NO this not make N2 not a sim N2 is a great sim but there are limitations in all Sims in one form or another.Just take out Burnouts screenshots and even you can try it out at your local Computer store you might change your mind. Robert "GT86" Platts BlackHole MotorSports

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>snip >> So if it doesn't have a dashboard view, SO WHAT. How can one >> missing view in your opinion destroy the whole game? >Oh, it can!!! This is not limited to car simulations. Imagine >Longbow2 only offered a behind-the-heli-view (TM), no serious >simmer would even look at it! >The word "simulation" implies realism, of course limited to >the current available hardware. But flying behind your car >has nothing to do with driving a car! >l8er >ronny >snip >> If your a 14 year old playing with daddys computer, and has >> nothing better to do than whine about a dashboard view, then >> go to drivers training, get a license, get a real car, and >> turn the dammed computer off! >I'd love to see you run after your car, trying to keep it on the road >;^) >-- > |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, > ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. > |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, > '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

> Ronny, > Who said that you only have a chase view from the car in Burnout,I > myself us the hood view, which I wish N2 and other racing sims have but lack > one of the biggest draw backs to a***pit view is you see no hood, so you > can't judge distances very well.I have been racing sims for 5 years now,here In many real cars you don't see the hood unless you stretch your neck, I don't think these cars are involved in more accidents than other cars. I don't need to see the hood in N2 because I GUESS where it ends. Hey, like in REAL LIFE (TM)... ;^) Agreed... Oh, well! The standard reply... Of course it's my money, but how can it be my loss if I don't like it. IMHO this ONE (1) view is the most important of all. Your preferences are different, that's cool! Oh my, I liked the screenshots of CPR! My racing buddy and I spooged over them for months, the rest is history... ;^) l8er ronny -- |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

What cars have you been driving that you couldn't see the hood,every car I have owned or driving I've been able to see the hood.Well except for one and that was OLd's version of a miny van the Shiloutte.Oh I meant to say Xcar wasn't meant to be a sim not was. >> Ronny, >> Who said that you only have a chase view from the car in Burnout,I >> myself us the hood view, which I wish N2 and other racing sims have but lack >> one of the biggest draw backs to a***pit view is you see no hood, so you >> can't judge distances very well.I have been racing sims for 5 years now,here

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>In many real cars you don't see the hood unless you stretch your neck, I >don't think >these cars are involved in more accidents than other cars. I don't need >to see >the hood in N2 because I GUESS where it ends. Hey, like in REAL LIFE >(TM)... ;^) >> are games that come to mind that were suppose to be sims that arent,

Daytona >> USA (JUNK), ABC's Indy Car (EVEN MORE JUNK), TEST DRIVE, NEED FOR SPEED 1 >> and 2..What makes a good sim is how realistic the car feels and,how >Agreed... >> realistic it is in setting up the car.Burnout does both of these very >> well.So if you choose to not buy the sim because of 1 view,thats your lost

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>Oh, well! The standard reply... Of course it's my money, but how can it >be >my loss if I don't like it. IMHO this ONE (1) view is the most important >of >all. Your preferences are different, that's cool! >> and your money.Just goto the webpage and checkout the screenshots it

might

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>> change your mind.Oh yeah Xcar was meant to be a sim.Oh to answer someones >Oh my, I liked the screenshots of CPR! My racing buddy and I spooged >over them >for months, the rest is history... ;^) >l8er >ronny >-- > |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, > ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. > |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, > '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Well that does depend upon your seating-posistion. I've driven a bunch of cars were i couldnt see the end/front of the hood (THATS what he's talkong about Rob - not the part of the hood thats close to the windshield.) If you really want to know some cars you cant see the front of the hood in try this... Fiat Strada Abarth, Toyota HiAce, VW Transporter, Morris Mini, VW Beetle, Citroen CX TRI, Opel Combo, Pontiac Figero, Ford Escort, Volvo S40, etc, etc, etc..... Like they say " its depends upon your point of view" !! Anyway... I truly belive that had Burnout had a In-car view... seeing the front/egde of the car wouldnt be such a big problem.... look at a top-fueler etc... The driver is seated miles behind the front wheels - thus getting a very lean line of vision to the front tires, whilch inturn should make him see them... I willing to bet that most drag-racers in top--fuel etc. do infact see the front tires when they drive. Ofcourse i could be wrong... never sat in one. Anyway knowing both yourown and the cars limits is all part of racing. Hell look at N2... you dont see the cars "edges" from the***bit!! And NO! - using external view is not at all the same as driving from "within" the ***bit!! Edwin Solheim, Norway ed_ on NROS The Paddock: http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock Cheek Junior Team: http://home.sol.no/~solhmrek

Drivers: I can see why the***pit view might of not made the 1st version of the BURN-OUT Sim.. You have over 20 cars and each require a different dash board of very intensive graphics. Its a night mare of a job and would require a team of graphics artist. With a single chasis game like NASCAR or INDYCAR you have but 1 dashboard. But with BURN-OUT you have hell, 20 cars.. Rail, Funny Cars, Pro Stock, Coupes, etc ,etc.. you get the picture.. I think it would be cool sitting in the seat of a FUNNY car and look at the dash or***pit. Imagine: 1). You get in the car!! 2). You see the dash***pit 3). You do the burnout 3a). The***pit fills up with smoke, you cant see do do.. 4). Some guys comes up and raises the hood. 4a). They check some gauges. You tell the guy to modify your fuel flow, etc 5). They lower the hood.. 6). You do the run.. Maybe you get a fire inside.. You see flames and you start *** on the smoke. Tell you what guys, the***pit isnt just a view.. Its an adventure.. Lets play the game, have some fun and see what Bethesda comes up with next.. Don Wilshe

FWIW I drive a '71 Corvette that has a nose that just sorta drops off, can't see the end of it from behind the wheel. (Maybe if I drove it like a Shrinermobile with my head stickin' outta the Tee top I could) :) No offense y'all Shriners, I owe you a lot! Doesn't stop me from driving the heck outta it though. You just know after a while where the hood ends. Joe. > What cars have you been driving that you couldn't see the hood,every car I > have owned or driving I've been able to see the hood.Well except for one and > that was OLd's version of a miny van the Shiloutte.Oh I meant to say Xcar > wasn't meant to be a sim not was.

Well I guess the reason I can see the end of the hood in just about any carhas to do with me being 6'2" tall,So I can't fit in those smaller cars anyway except for the escort,I dated a girl at had a Escort and was able to see the hood and top of the fenders fine. Robert "GT86" Platts BlackHole MotorSports >FWIW >I drive a '71 Corvette that has a nose that just sorta drops off, can't see the >end of it from behind the wheel. (Maybe if I drove it like a Shrinermobile with >my head stickin' outta the Tee top I could) :) No offense y'all Shriners, I owe >you a lot! Doesn't stop me from driving the heck outta it though. You just know

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>after a while where the hood ends. >Joe. >> What cars have you been driving that you couldn't see the hood,every car

I >> have owned or driving I've been able to see the hood.Well except for one and >> that was OLd's version of a miny van the Shiloutte.Oh I meant to say Xcar >> wasn't meant to be a sim not was.

One of the biggest problems with all these sims is the lack of peripheral vision. Driving a real race car is nothing at all like the "tunnel-vision" view that you get through the "viewport" of your monitor screen. I used to own and drive a fuel dragster a number of years ago, so I can answer your question that yes, you can definitely see the front wheels and use them to "aim" the car. However, you can also see stuff while racing such as your opponent's front wheels out of the corner of your eye! This is difficult to show on a flat monitor. Maybe the "behind the car" view actually works better this way since you can see your opponent while you're racing. Of course, my first dragster was a "slingshot" chassis, so I was pretty much did have a behind-the-car view! -- Doug Gordon (Remove "nospam." from e-mail address) >Robert Platts wrote... >>What cars have you been driving that you couldn't see the hood..... snip!! >Well that does depend upon your seating-posistion. I've driven a bunch of >cars were i couldnt see the end/front of the hood (THATS what he's talkong >about Rob - not the part of the hood thats close to the windshield.) >If you really want to know some cars you cant see the front of the hood in >try this... >Fiat Strada Abarth, Toyota HiAce, VW Transporter, Morris Mini, VW Beetle, >Citroen CX TRI, Opel Combo, Pontiac Figero, Ford Escort, Volvo S40, etc, >etc, etc..... >Like they say " its depends upon your point of view" !! >Anyway... I truly belive that had Burnout had a In-car view... seeing the >front/egde of the car wouldnt be such a big problem.... look at a top-fueler >etc... The driver is seated miles behind the front wheels - thus getting a >very lean line of vision to the front tires, whilch inturn should make him >see them... >I willing to bet that most drag-racers in top--fuel etc. do infact see the >front tires when they drive. Ofcourse i could be wrong... never sat in one. >Anyway knowing both yourown and the cars limits is all part of racing. Hell >look at N2... you dont see the cars "edges" from the***bit!! And NO! - >using external view is not at all the same as driving from "within" the >cockbit!! >Edwin Solheim, Norway >ed_ on NROS >The Paddock: http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock >Cheek Junior Team: http://home.sol.no/~solhmrek

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> Drivers: > I can see why the***pit view might of not made the 1st version of the > BURN-OUT Sim.. You have over 20 cars and each require a different > dash board of very intensive graphics. Its a night mare of a job and would > require a team of graphics artist. With a single chasis game like NASCAR > or INDYCAR you have but 1 dashboard. But with BURN-OUT you > have hell, 20 cars.. Rail, Funny Cars, Pro Stock, Coupes, etc ,etc.. you > get the picture.. I think it would be cool sitting in the seat of a FUNNY > car and look at the dash or***pit. Imagine: > 1). You get in the car!! > 2). You see the dash***pit > 3). You do the burnout > 3a). The***pit fills up with smoke, you cant see do do.. > 4). Some guys comes up and raises the hood. > 4a). They check some gauges. You tell the guy to modify your fuel flow, etc > 5). They lower the hood.. > 6). You do the run.. Maybe you get a fire inside.. You see flames and > you start *** on the smoke. > Tell you what guys, the***pit isnt just a view.. Its an adventure.. Lets play > the game, have some fun and see what Bethesda comes up with next.. > Don Wilshe

Right Don, too bad it got left out, think of the fun you'd have sitting in the***pit in your TF or FC in "NHRA Drag Racing" :)! Trev

>Right Don, too bad it got left out, think of the fun you'd have sitting >in the***pit in your TF or FC in "NHRA Drag Racing" :)! I was thinking the same exact thing :-) That NHRA game does look cool. I'm thinking it is what I'm looking for. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

Hark - is that violins I hear? Pardon me if I'm mistaken, but surely Bethesda decide how many cars to put in the game and how many different***pits they would need? One ***pit per "class" of car would be enough, or even randomise the gauge positions within each class to creat a "unique"***pit for each car. This is hardly rocket science. Frankly I doubt very much if that is the reason, or if it is then I must say my opinion of Bethesda's planning versus their impression of what a real sim should contain has dropped several notches. It's clear that making a sim involves compromises, that goes without saying, but the position of the driver's eyes doesn't number among them. Cheers! John

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> >>Right Don, too bad it got left out, think of the fun you'd have sitting > >>in the***pit in your TF or FC in "NHRA Drag Racing" :)! > >Hmmmm, bashing the competition is the one thing guaranteed to reflect > >badly upon your own product. As a drag-racing fan I'd have thought you > >would be happy that more products are now on the market - competition > >is good for the consumer. > Well I for one am glad Trev appears to be a real guy. i.e. no BS and > says what is on his mind. He could be here as a private citizen, and > not Mr. TSW. > -- > Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. > >Cheers! > >John

I doubt it since Trev is working on the NHRA game.

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>Drivers: >I can see why the***pit view might of not made the 1st version of the >BURN-OUT Sim.. You have over 20 cars and each require a different >dash board of very intensive graphics. Its a night mare of a job and would >require a team of graphics artist. With a single chasis game like NASCAR >or INDYCAR you have but 1 dashboard. But with BURN-OUT you

This does *NOT* justify the omission. F1RS has different dashes for all of the different cars - no problem there. Face it, Bethesda just didn't listen to, or care about what the testers/public thought on this matter. I really cannot fathom what they were thinking when they did not include a***pit view in a supposed "sim." I mean, do *you* drive from the hood of your car?

Hey Doug I agree on the lack of peripheral vision. We should all soon have 3 monitors on our desks. Wouldnt that be cool. I remember an Atari Arcade game many years ago and that was the big appeal for me was the use of 3 screens that would wrap around you and give you a very realistic feeling. BTW Someone got rich off all the Quarters I dumped in that game. Later George

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>One of the biggest problems with all these sims is the lack of peripheral >vision. Driving a real race car is nothing at all like the "tunnel-vision" >view that you get through the "viewport" of your monitor screen. I used to >own and drive a fuel dragster a number of years ago, so I can answer your >question that yes, you can definitely see the front wheels and use them to >"aim" the car. However, you can also see stuff while racing such as your >opponent's front wheels out of the corner of your eye! This is difficult to >show on a flat monitor. Maybe the "behind the car" view actually works >better this way since you can see your opponent while you're racing. Of >course, my first dragster was a "slingshot" chassis, so I was pretty much >did have a behind-the-car view! >-- >Doug Gordon >(Remove "nospam." from e-mail address) >>Robert Platts wrote... >>>What cars have you been driving that you couldn't see the hood.....

snip!!

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>>Well that does depend upon your seating-posistion. I've driven a bunch of >>cars were i couldnt see the end/front of the hood (THATS what he's talkong >>about Rob - not the part of the hood thats close to the windshield.) >>If you really want to know some cars you cant see the front of the hood in >>try this... >>Fiat Strada Abarth, Toyota HiAce, VW Transporter, Morris Mini, VW Beetle, >>Citroen CX TRI, Opel Combo, Pontiac Figero, Ford Escort, Volvo S40, etc, >>etc, etc..... >>Like they say " its depends upon your point of view" !! >>Anyway... I truly belive that had Burnout had a In-car view... seeing the >>front/egde of the car wouldnt be such a big problem.... look at a >top-fueler >>etc... The driver is seated miles behind the front wheels - thus getting a >>very lean line of vision to the front tires, whilch inturn should make him >>see them... >>I willing to bet that most drag-racers in top--fuel etc. do infact see the >>front tires when they drive. Ofcourse i could be wrong... never sat in

one. >>Anyway knowing both yourown and the cars limits is all part of racing. Hell

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>>look at N2... you dont see the cars "edges" from the***bit!! And NO! - >>using external view is not at all the same as driving from "within" the >>cockbit!! >>Edwin Solheim, Norway >>ed_ on NROS >>The Paddock: http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock >>Cheek Junior Team: http://home.sol.no/~solhmrek

Hmmmm, bashing the competition is the one thing guaranteed to reflect badly upon your own product. As a drag-racing fan I'd have thought you would be happy that more products are now on the market - competition is good for the consumer. Cheers! John

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>>Right Don, too bad it got left out, think of the fun you'd have sitting >>in the***pit in your TF or FC in "NHRA Drag Racing" :)! >Hmmmm, bashing the competition is the one thing guaranteed to reflect >badly upon your own product. As a drag-racing fan I'd have thought you >would be happy that more products are now on the market - competition >is good for the consumer.

Well I for one am glad Trev appears to be a real guy. i.e. no BS and says what is on his mind. He could be here as a private citizen, and not Mr. TSW. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

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> >Right Don, too bad it got left out, think of the fun you'd have sitting > >in the***pit in your TF or FC in "NHRA Drag Racing" :)! > Hmmmm, bashing the competition is the one thing guaranteed to reflect > badly upon your own product. As a drag-racing fan I'd have thought you > would be happy that more products are now on the market - competition > is good for the consumer.

Well, he's praising his wheels on this ng, so he's just consistent... ;^) l8er ronny -- |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

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> > Hey Doug I agree on the lack of peripheral vision. We should all soon have 3 > > monitors on our desks. Wouldnt that be cool. I remember an Atari Arcade > > game many years ago and that was the big appeal for me was the use of 3 > > screens that would wrap around you and give you a very realistic feeling. > > BTW Someone got rich off all the Quarters I dumped in that game. > I have been thinking that we could have, say, an outside 1/8th on > either side of the screen that sort of wrapped around like one of those > bubble rear vision mirrors. This would be a good alternative to head > panning I think which seems to just disorient me completely. The mirrors > in ICR2 do a decent job but is small and only shows the cars and not the > rest of the track, etc. [snip]

I'm a GP2 driver (as well as model car racer - the ultimate external view?!! - and quick (ish) road driver) and I find the mirrors in my ICR2 demo very disorientating - every time a car overtakes me I think it's spun behind me! I have no problem running wheel-to-wheel in GP2 - in fact, I love the way the AI will do that with you (much like the best few RCers I've run against). I watch them approach in my mirrors, leave them a car width as they come alongside me and don't close that gap until I see them either ahead of me or (preferably!) in the mirrors again. They do something similar for me (most of the time) and I enjoy the racing. I also find I can reverse GP2 in the mirrors pretty accurately (having practised something similar in a real Ford P100 through a warehouse a few times the other summer) which has to be a good sign. Jonny --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Hodgson | TTech Predator | | than win by two laps | LSU Archery Club and Orchestra | ---------------------------------------------------------------------

> Well I for one am glad Trev appears to be a real guy. i.e. no BS and > says what is on his mind. He could be here as a private citizen, and > not Mr. TSW. Hi Greg, I just calls em like I sees em and them as dont like it can just K,M,A if you know what I mean<g>! Trev

> Hey Doug I agree on the lack of peripheral vision. We should all soon have 3 > monitors on our desks. Wouldnt that be cool. I remember an Atari Arcade > game many years ago and that was the big appeal for me was the use of 3 > screens that would wrap around you and give you a very realistic feeling. > BTW Someone got rich off all the Quarters I dumped in that game. I have been thinking that we could have, say, an outside 1/8th on either side of the screen that sort of wrapped around like one of those bubble rear vision mirrors. This would be a good alternative to head panning I think which seems to just disorient me completely. The mirrors in ICR2 do a decent job but is small and only shows the cars and not the rest of the track, etc. Until we have head gear that moves the view as we move our head and provides true 180 deg peripheral vision then I think this might be worth a try. As far as 3 monitors go, if you can lend me a couple George then I'm all for it :)

Agreed ! Who really cares -XCAR & BURNOUT are to sim racing what CPR & ABC INDYCAR are to racing ! NOTHING but a WASTE OF MY TIME :) > >I can see why the***pit view might of not made the 1st version of the > >BURN-OUT Sim.. You have over 20 cars and each require a different > >dash board of very intensive graphics. Its a night mare of a job and would

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> >require a team of graphics artist. > Hark - is that violins I hear? > Pardon me if I'm mistaken, but surely Bethesda decide how many cars to > put in the game and how many different***pits they would need? One >***pit per "class" of car would be enough, or even randomise the > gauge positions within each class to creat a "unique"***pit for each > car. This is hardly rocket science. > Frankly I doubt very much if that is the reason, or if it is then I > must say my opinion of Bethesda's planning versus their impression of > what a real sim should contain has dropped several notches. It's clear > that making a sim involves compromises, that goes without saying, but > the position of the driver's eyes doesn't number among them. > Cheers! > John

On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 07:47:06 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >Well I for one am glad Trev appears to be a real guy. i.e. no BS and >says what is on his mind. He could be here as a private citizen, and >not Mr. TSW. It wasn't Mr TSW I had in mind, it was Mr "New NHRA sim co-developer". I'm sure Trev's comments are entirely objective, but it never pays to make any comment on your competitors that could be construed as negative. It generally comes back around to bite you in the end. Cheers! John

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>On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 07:47:06 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >>Well I for one am glad Trev appears to be a real guy. i.e. no BS and >>says what is on his mind. He could be here as a private citizen, and >>not Mr. TSW. >It wasn't Mr TSW I had in mind, it was Mr "New NHRA sim co-developer".

Well the last guy I was not aware of. And in that light you would be correct, i.e. uncool. Unless he was really posting here as a private citizen (with no financial gain). -- Header intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.