Burnout In-Car View and Lockups

I have read many post complaining about no***pit view, we (playtesters) asked Bethesda to put this in but I guess they didn't think it was necessary,plus from testing the game I think it would be kind of hard to see the sides of your hood to make sure you don't cross the center line or hit the wall on a run.In other words so you could see where the front of your car is at all times,because of the lack of a***pit view doesn't make this a arcade game,plenty of people use arcade view in N2 when racing so they can see their whole car.I read one message that one guy took the game back or decide not buy it because of the lack of a***pit view,to me that is plain stupid,the view you use doesn't make the game good or bad. I have ran Burnout since the first day of testing in Win95 with no lockups using 3dfx,I believe most or all testers used the 3dfx version of the game (mistake on our part).But from one of the e-mails we recieved from Bethesda for the regular version you had to copy the Burnout.exe from the Xengine folder on the cd over the one on you hard drive,because of install problems on the regular version,hopefully the fixed that problem since it was in the early stages of testing.By give it a shot it might work. The best part of this sim YES SIM is in how many options you have to play with in the engine, ***, tires, suspension and so forth.You can take on setup that runs great in one car and it will run like ***in the next.So just give the game a couple days to grow on you,like I stated a few days ago I am a huge N2 fan and take my sim racing seriousily,but when I started testing Burnout I basically forgot about N2,we will start Mplayer testing soon and thats when the fun will start,from what I hear there might be prize money at stake (MIGHT!!!!), just like at your local dragstrips. If Don or I find or hear of any more problems or solutions to your problems with the game we will be glad to post them here.Please feel free to ask us any questions we will be glad to help if we can and if we don't have the answer we will do or best to find one.We do not get paid for this we just know how everyone feels about buggy games and Beta Testers that keep things to themselves. Have Fun Robert "GT86" Platts BlackHole MotorSports

> I have read many post complaining about no***pit view, we (playtesters) > asked Bethesda to put this in but I guess they didn't think it was > necessary,plus from testing the game I think it would be kind of hard to see > the sides of your hood to make sure you don't cross the center line or hit > the wall on a run.In other words so you could see where the front of your Hmm, I never see real drivers fly behind their car to get a better view... ;^) Different opinions, to me not having the option to sit IN the car is enough to skip it... l8er ronny -- |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:42:31 -0800, "Robert Platts"

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>I have read many post complaining about no***pit view, we (playtesters) >asked Bethesda to put this in but I guess they didn't think it was >necessary,plus from testing the game I think it would be kind of hard to see >the sides of your hood to make sure you don't cross the center line or hit >the wall on a run.In other words so you could see where the front of your >car is at all times,because of the lack of a***pit view doesn't make this >a arcade game,plenty of people use arcade view in N2 when racing so they can >see their whole car.I read one message that one guy took the game back or >decide not buy it because of the lack of a***pit view,to me that is plain >stupid,the view you use doesn't make the game good or bad. >Robert "GT86" Platts >BlackHole MotorSports

I agree about it being stupid. I personally don't sit in the back seat of a car so I can have a***pit view. I look out the windsheild. I see the hood and the road, thats all I need to see. All the gauges are there to place them where ever you need them. A***pit or dashboard view is really needed if it's a road race Sim, because it gives you a better view to the sides of the car and you can tell if someones coming up on you, the same with mirrors. But a drag racing Sim... I don't think so...If I'm going down the quarter in a matter of seconds at high speed, I'm not going to give a ***about the dash only keeping the car on the road pointed straight. The game is awesome period. I can almost smell the smoke after a burnout!

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> I have read many post complaining about no***pit view, we (playtesters) > asked Bethesda to put this in but I guess they didn't think it was > necessary,plus from testing the game I think it would be kind of hard to see > the sides of your hood to make sure you don't cross the center line or hit > the wall on a run.In other words so you could see where the front of your > car is at all times,because of the lack of a***pit view doesn't make this > a arcade game,plenty of people use arcade view in N2 when racing so they can > see their whole car.I read one message that one guy took the game back or > decide not buy it because of the lack of a***pit view,to me that is plain > stupid,the view you use doesn't make the game good or bad. > I have ran Burnout since the first day of testing in Win95 with no lockups > using 3dfx,I believe most or all testers used the 3dfx version of the game > (mistake on our part).But from one of the e-mails we recieved from Bethesda > for the regular version you had to copy the Burnout.exe from the Xengine > folder on the cd over the one on you hard drive,because of install problems > on the regular version,hopefully the fixed that problem since it was in the > early stages of testing.By give it a shot it might work. > The best part of this sim YES SIM is in how many options you have to play > with in the engine, ***, tires, suspension and so forth.You can take on > setup that runs great in one car and it will run like ***in the next.So > just give the game a couple days to grow on you,like I stated a few days ago > I am a huge N2 fan and take my sim racing seriousily,but when I started > testing Burnout I basically forgot about N2,we will start Mplayer testing > soon and thats when the fun will start,from what I hear there might be prize > money at stake (MIGHT!!!!), just like at your local dragstrips. > If Don or I find or hear of any more problems or solutions to your problems > with the game we will be glad to post them here.Please feel free to ask us > any questions we will be glad to help if we can and if we don't have the > answer we will do or best to find one.We do not get paid for this we just > know how everyone feels about buggy games and Beta Testers that keep things > to themselves. > Have Fun > Robert "GT86" Platts > BlackHole MotorSports

Bob, you can say what you like, a sim is not a sim with no***pit view! Tantrum has it in NDR and it works very well, besides you get a lot more viewing area in a door slammer than you do in a flopper! Trev

> I have read many post complaining about no***pit view, we > (playtesters) asked Bethesda to put this in but I guess they didn't > think it was necessary,plus from testing the game I think it would > be kind of hard to see the sides of your hood to make sure you don't > cross the center line or hit the wall on a run. Don't thousands of drag racers deal with this every time down the strip? I've never gone to a track to race, but in a Saturday Night Stop-light Grand Prix, I can manage to keep my car within my lane and not hit a wall... :-) And plenty of people use the in-car view so they can play the game to a higher limit of their ability. The fact that plenty of people use the F10 view doesn't argue that the in-cockpit view should not be an option anymore than the fact that plenty of people use Dvorak keyboards; shouldn't QWERTY keyboards still be an option? Anyone remember the fantastic Activision 2600 game by David Krane, "Dragster"? Now, that was a game we spent hours playing and didn't need a***pit view. Of course, that was around 15 years ago, and I would have expected the state of the art in drag racing "simulations" to have improved in those intervening years... ---Jim

>The best part of this sim YES SIM ..... <SNIP!!!> Bollocks!! A "game" without an in-car view is just that.. - a game!! A SIMulator however would requrie all the aspects of driving and simulating the real deal.. including the VERY important point of view aspect!! After I saw how they handled the X-car issue I opted not to buy the GAME - infact i seem to recall erasing the demo after some 10 minutes of testing! This time I didnt bother to d/l the demo ( dunno if they made one tho) nor did i bother to read much about the GAME. To me Bethsoft or whatever they're called, have showed us how little they really know about motorsports and that they're not able to simulate it in any way. For me its gonna take a VERY long time before i bother to d/l any stuff from them - let alone buy anything they've made.... As they say... it takes a long time to establish a brand or company, but so littlle to ruin it! Edwin Solheim, Norway ed_ on NROS The Paddock: http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock Cheek Junior Team: http://home.sol.no/~solhmrek

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>Anyone remember the fantastic Activision 2600 game by David Krane, >"Dragster"? >Now, that was a game we spent hours playing and didn't need a***pit >view. Of course, that was around 15 years ago, and I would have >expected the state of the art in drag racing "simulations" to have >improved in those intervening years...

It sounds like this is my que to reproduce part of the "About" file for my Dragrace the Game program: About DRAG RACE the GAME Copyright 1996 by Rod Heilfron Version 2.5 Distributed Exclusively by: Family Software 3164 Surrey Lane Aston, PA 19014 (610) 497-5561 ....... snip All Right! Enough with the tech changes. Now for the changes for the Racer: - The main screen now shows 330, 660 & 1000 foot times and speeds in addition to the 60 ft. and 1/4 mile that it showed before. - In addition to Dial-In you can now set a simple Delay Box setting. You can also adjust where your car Stages by using up some of your Rollout. The new adjustments will help make bracket racing more realistic. - The traction of the surface of each lane can be set. This can be used to simulate oil spilled on the lane or a freshly cleaned and coated track. - The static weight distribution of the car is now adjustable. - The height of the center of gravity is adjustable. This affects the dynamic weight distribution ( weight transferred from the front to the rear) during a race. This will probably cause some cars to get too much grip and will require changes to tire compound, launch RPM and clutch settings to prevent bogging the engine (and get them to run like they did in previous versions of the game. Sorry). - The number of drive wheels, both front and rear can now be set. You can have a 4x4 truck or one with dual rear wheels. - Race data graphs are easier to read. - Horsepower and Torque graphs are easier to read. - The computer's shift time is now measured in seconds instead of just a counter. This adds consistency if you race on computers that are different in speed. - Decals and custom paint jobs have been added to some of the race car bodies. - And of course new bodies have been added. **************************************************************************** ......snip The idea for the game was inspired by Dragster, a game for the Atari 2600 by David Crane. My buddies and I could sit for hours running the two dragsters against each other and trying to get them into the 5's. We would try different grips on the joystick and techniques for shifting in an effort to gain a .01 of a second over our opponent. ......snip Enjoy, Rod Heilfron At least I didn't leave out the***pit view because I didn't think anyone wanted one (I want it more than anyone), I left it out because I don't know how to program it. :-) Rod

> The idea for the game was inspired by Dragster, a game for the > Atari 2600 by David Crane. My buddies and I could sit for hours > running the two dragsters against each other and trying to get them > into the 5's. We would try different grips on the joystick and > techniques for shifting in an effort to gain a .01 of a second over > our opponent. I think I still have an old Polaroid shot of a run in the 5s (that you took so you could send in and get the Activision Dragster patch)... And the blown engine represented by turning the engine upside down in the car; great stuff! I didn't realize it was Crane, not Krane. Thanks for the correction. ---Jim

Trev: Trev, that is a silly statement.. Lots of people drive Nascar2 in F10 Mode and love it.. Its like saying that a manufacture that doesnt use DIGITAL POTS doesnt really make a steering system. I tell you what the people that bought the BURNOUT are really e***d about it.. It is a great pleasure to drive!!! Don Wilshe

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> I have read many post complaining about no***pit view, we (playtesters) > asked Bethesda to put this in but I guess they didn't think it was > necessary,plus from testing the game I think it would be kind of hard to see > the sides of your hood to make sure you don't cross the center line or hit > the wall on a run.In other words so you could see where the front of your > car is at all times,because of the lack of a***pit view doesn't make this > a arcade game,plenty of people use arcade view in N2 when racing so they can > see their whole car.I read one message that one guy took the game back or > decide not buy it because of the lack of a***pit view,to me that is plain > stupid,the view you use doesn't make the game good or bad.

Sorry, but I have to agree with "stupid"; the lack of a***pit view is unnacceptable in anything that claims to be a racing "sim". It is essential to the whola atmosphere and suspensions of disbelief. Any other view simply reminds me I'm playing a "game". But, I'll reserve final judgement unyil I see it -- maybe it would be suitable for a fun distraction from the real sims. Paul

>Trev, that is a silly statement.. Lots of people drive Nascar2 in F10 Mode Doesn't make it realistic. Especially when you beta tested it :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

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> >Trev, that is a silly statement.. Lots of people drive Nascar2 in F10 Mode > Doesn't make it realistic. > >and love it.. Its like saying that a manufacture that doesnt use DIGITAL > >POTS doesnt really make a steering system. I tell you what the people that > >bought the BURNOUT are really e***d about it.. It is a great pleasure > >to drive!!! > Especially when you beta tested it :-) > -- > Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

Hi Greg, This is a good case of consider the source<g>! If you want Drag racing wait til NDR is released, wont be long now :)! Trev

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>Trev: >> Bob, you can say what you like, a sim is not a sim with no***pit view! >> Tantrum has it in NDR and it works very well, besides you get a lot more >> viewing area in a door slammer than you do in a flopper! >Trev, that is a silly statement.. Lots of people drive Nascar2 in F10 Mode >and love it.. Its like saying that a manufacture that doesnt use DIGITAL >POTS doesnt really make a steering system. I tell you what the people that >bought the BURNOUT are really e***d about it.. It is a great pleasure >to drive!!! >Don Wilshe

Don, Trev didn't say anything about people driving outside the car, some people may love to race Nascar2 in F10 mode and the opportunity is there for them. But if it doesn't have an incar view, its not a sim. Todd.

> Trev, that is a silly statement.. Lots of people drive Nascar2 in F10 Mode > and love it.. Lots of people wouldn't drive Nascar2 at all if the F10 view were the ONLY option. Trips

>> Trev, that is a silly statement.. Lots of people drive Nascar2 in F10 Mode >> and love it.. >Lots of people wouldn't drive Nascar2 at all if >the F10 view were the ONLY option. Exactly. "A kill has been recorded". Opps, wrong NG :-) -- Header intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

He He.... Don Wilshe..... Still Love the Game.... Guess its cause I am just a drag racer... Thats what I do at NASCAR... Fastlaps, Quals and Sprints.. Don Wilshe

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> >> Trev, that is a silly statement.. Lots of people drive Nascar2 in F10 > Mode > >> and love it.. > >Lots of people wouldn't drive Nascar2 at all if > >the F10 view were the ONLY option. > Exactly. > "A kill has been recorded". Opps, wrong NG :-) > -- > Header intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

Greg and Trips you make a good point.. We have heard you believe me loud and clear. I am sure it will get strong consideration in BURN-OUT II. There still might be 1 or 2 that would buy nascar if the***put view doesnt exist. After all we have also been putting up with a bad prospective and and bad views out of that***pit since the inception of it.. Dont you love that view at BRISTOL.. I think that INDYCAR II view and prospective is 10 times better than NASCAR. Dam, I miss RICK GENTER!!! Don Wilshe

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> >> Trev, that is a silly statement.. Lots of people drive Nascar2 in F10 > Mode > >> and love it.. > >Lots of people wouldn't drive Nascar2 at all if > >the F10 view were the ONLY option. > Exactly. > "A kill has been recorded". Opps, wrong NG :-) > -- > Header intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

>Greg and Trips you make a good point.. We have heard you believe me >loud and clear. I am sure it will get strong consideration in BURN-OUT II. FWIW, I have not ruled out Burnout because of no***pit view. It will most likely be if bracket racing is all you can do. I want to compete in a Funny car or Top Fuel meet. I am not interested in giving a VW Bug a 15 second head start if you know what I mean. And I do believe that is the essence of bracket racing. If I am wrong please explain it properly :-) doesnt Right one or two, not 100,000 or 200,000. Frankly I never used it. -- Header intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

Greg: Funny Car and Top Fuel are there... Check out the web pages at [link lost in import] It has screen shots of all the pages and views of the cars... Robert Platt set fast speed at 331 MPH, 4.46 in TOP FUEL car.. That fast enough for you.... Don

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> >Greg and Trips you make a good point.. We have heard you believe me > >loud and clear. I am sure it will get strong consideration in BURN-OUT II. > FWIW, I have not ruled out Burnout because of no***pit view. > It will most likely be if bracket racing is all you can do. I want > to compete in a Funny car or Top Fuel meet. I am not interested > in giving a VW Bug a 15 second head start if you know what I > mean. And I do believe that is the essence of bracket racing. > If I am wrong please explain it properly :-) > >There still might be 1 or 2 that would buy nascar if the***put view > doesnt > Right one or two, not 100,000 or 200,000. > >exist. After all we have also been putting up with a bad prospective and > >and bad views out of that***pit since the inception of it.. Dont you > >love that view at BRISTOL.. I think that INDYCAR II view and prospective > Frankly I never used it. > -- > Header intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

Don one correction here it was 4.75 at 337 in a 66 Mustang back in beta 3.0,best I can get now is a 5.7 at 225 in a rail car and 6.4 at 197 in the Mustang. Robert "GT86" Platts BlackHole MotorSports

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>Greg: >Funny Car and Top Fuel are there... Check out the web >pages at [link lost in import] It has screen shots of >all the pages and views of the cars... Robert Platt set >fast speed at 331 MPH, 4.46 in TOP FUEL car.. That >fast enough for you.... >Don >> >Greg and Trips you make a good point.. We have heard you believe me >> >loud and clear. I am sure it will get strong consideration in BURN-OUT

II.

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>> FWIW, I have not ruled out Burnout because of no***pit view. >> It will most likely be if bracket racing is all you can do. I want >> to compete in a Funny car or Top Fuel meet. I am not interested >> in giving a VW Bug a 15 second head start if you know what I >> mean. And I do believe that is the essence of bracket racing. >> If I am wrong please explain it properly :-) >> >There still might be 1 or 2 that would buy nascar if the***put view >> doesnt >> Right one or two, not 100,000 or 200,000. >> >exist. After all we have also been putting up with a bad prospective

and >> >and bad views out of that***pit since the inception of it.. Dont you >> >love that view at BRISTOL.. I think that INDYCAR II view and prospective >> Frankly I never used it. >> -- >> Header intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

>Don one correction here it was 4.75 at 337 in a 66 Mustang back in beta >3.0,best I can get now is a 5.7 at 225 in a rail car and 6.4 at 197 in the >Mustang. But are the sub-5 times possible now? Also I did download the viewer so I do know what cars are modeled. When I clicked the burnout button there was lots of smoke, but the rears did not deform and get tall & narrow. Is that how it is in the game? This matters since it affects topspeed and everything else as far as I know (if it is modeled properly). Also, can I have race a whole race against funnycars? Or is it all bracket racing? Thanks! -- Header intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

How do you "drag race" in a NASCAR? Is that like sitting on the grid at Marty with pantyhose and a light summer dress on? ;-) Cheers! John

Greg, I would say yes! As last night I hit a 5.09. Although, you can't see tires grow and deform, this is taken into account with physics model. And yes you can race fast cars only. Right now I have the field covered pretty good at hardest level. Still easy to hit the wall or cross center line unless I detune it a touch. Regards, Pete > But are the sub-5 times possible now? Also I did download the viewer > so I do know what cars are modeled. When I clicked the burnout button > there was lots of smoke, but the rears did not deform and get tall & narrow.

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> Is that how it is in the game? This matters since it affects topspeed and > everything else as far as I know (if it is modeled properly). > Also, can I have race a whole race against funnycars? Or is it all > bracket racing? > Thanks! > -- > Header intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

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> >He He.... > >Don Wilshe..... Still Love the Game.... Guess its cause I am just a drag > >racer... Thats what I do at NASCAR... > How do you "drag race" in a NASCAR? Is that like sitting on the grid > at Marty with pantyhose and a light summer dress on? ;-) > Cheers! > John

John, good one, wish I had said that :)! Trev

Hey, if you use the over the hood view of the car, it is about as close as you can get to a***pit view, and it looks pretty good too. The game is fantastic. Being able to build different engines and see HP and Torque curves is awesome.

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>>Trev: >>> Bob, you can say what you like, a sim is not a sim with no***pit view! >>> Tantrum has it in NDR and it works very well, besides you get a lot more >>> viewing area in a door slammer than you do in a flopper! >>Trev, that is a silly statement.. Lots of people drive Nascar2 in F10 Mode >>and love it.. Its like saying that a manufacture that doesnt use DIGITAL >>POTS doesnt really make a steering system. I tell you what the people

that

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>>bought the BURNOUT are really e***d about it.. It is a great pleasure >>to drive!!! >>Don Wilshe > Don, Trev didn't say anything about people driving outside the car, some >people may love to race Nascar2 in F10 mode and the opportunity is there

for >them. But if it doesn't have an incar view, its not a sim. > Todd.

This has got to be one of the most un-educated arguements I have ever heard: "But if it doesn't have an incar view, its not a sim" In N2 your car cant flip. Does that make it any less a sim? In GP2 the car doesnt erupt into peices when you graze a wall. Does that make it any less a sim? Are you trying to tell me that if Bethesda did make an in-car veiw then it would be a sim? Because if that is the case, hell, I know that Bethesda has plans to come up with that in car view for you all that just HAS to have a bracket racing sim have a dashboard as well. Do you realize what 'SIM' means? It is short for Simulate. If a company represents a car, or a sport in a realistic manner than it would be SIMULATED. Because Bethesda simulated bracket racing and not dashboards does not make it any less a sim than N2 or any other driving sim. In fact, the car that I drive in the Sears Point sportsman races doesnt have a dashboard. Does that make it any less a car? It is a bracket racing sim, not a dashboard sim guys, get over it and just have fun. For the people that refuse to buy this SIM just for the fact that there is no in-car veiw.... it sounds like you just want an arcade game to go as fast as you can and wreck and then laugh about it all afterwards. You dont want to have a great SIM that challenges you when it comes to building a motor, transmission, suspension, or anything else with SIMULATING a bracket car. If that is what you really want, then you WILL go purchase BURNOUT! Because that is exactly what it is, a racing SIM. You know what would make BURNOUT a non-sim? If you did not have hundreds, if not thousands, of setup choices. Hell, N2 only allows you to setup the basics of a Winston Cup car. BURNOUT lets you set up so much more. Those setup choices would make it more a sim than most games on the market today......realism makes a sim, not in-car veiws. Im done.....

I overall was dissapointed with Burnout. I believe the car setup controls are not realistic at all and the speeds that such setups get is very overrated. Throw in the terrible sound and sense of speed and this game missed it's mark. Built a buddies Barracuda with this game, he gets mid 12's with his rev'd up 340 in this game it runs eights. Right. Bethdesa is on the right track, maybe next year! Q.B.M.

>This has got to be one of the most un-educated arguements I have ever heard: >"But if it doesn't have an incar view, its not a sim" >In N2 your car cant flip. Does that make it any less a sim? In GP2 the car >doesnt erupt into peices when you graze a wall. Does that make it any less a >sim? No it doesn't. Burnout's biggest flaw is a 5 second 66 mustang. In fact you can build a card that is so unrealistic it is quite funny. FWIW, the front bumper view is quite a good replacement for a***pit view. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

A playable demo of BURNOUT is now available for download from the PC Gamer web site (www.pcgamer.com). Bethesda Softworks

Are they having problems with their server? I had it 100% downloaded and it froze for quite a while, checked to see if the file was where I put it, it was, so I hit cancel on the download dialogue box. Went back to unzip the file--not there. Tried to download it again, and have not gotten a response in 24 hours. Just traffic?? Michael Tracy ==================================================