F1RS is Awfull! Version 2

Hello everyone, Thanks for all your postings. Just like to clear up a few things: - So the demo really is nothing like the game?? I mean it looks really good. I just don't want to waste more money on games that are no good (TOCA). - I'm not just defending GP2, It really is very realistic, you can really hold a massively long slide on a touch of opposite lock, with your foot down! The change in weight distribution as you brake and change direction is spot on. - Is F1RS better with Setups? Did they just give you a really terrible setup for the demo - it understeers like crazy and feels like an 4 tonne lorry. - How good is it with a steering wheel and pedals? Can everything be analog? Steering wouldn't in the demo. Well, I'm prepared to go to Piccadliy Circus this Saturday and get it and see for real. I just hope it's not another TOCA!! Matt

Compared to GP2, F1RS does tend to understeer more - but a decent setup can produce a neutral enough car for me. It drives differently to GP2. IMHO neither is 'better' or 'worse' as they both have good and bad points. They are simply different, and there's nothing wrong with that! I haven't tried setting the gear shift to analog, but everything else is <g> Go for it - as long as you've got the hardware, you won't be disappointed in it. It's definitely not TOCA ;-) Cheers, Richard

Believe me, it's not another TOCA!

Quoted text (7 lines)

>Hello everyone, >Thanks for all your postings. Just like to clear up a few things: >- So the demo really is nothing like the game?? I mean it looks really >good. I just don't want to waste more money on games that are no good >(TOCA).

The demo is nothing like the game IMHO. I had the French version of the DEMO and thought it sucked. I also had a P5-166 (I now have a P5-200MMX). The biggest problem though was the AI would cream you into the first turn at Monza. Much like CPR did/does. I just thought that sucked. The AI in the game is much more aware of you. In some cases as many people say they give up the corner more easily. But I like that. If you win the corner the other car should give it up. I don't go for that Jean Alesi ***:-) I think F1RS is too. It certainly met my expectation without actually driving a real F1 car. Yes the setups are much better. You can even crank the RPM of the engine up (don't remember that in GP2). The one problem with setups is that it seems impossible some times to set the camber of the rears properly. Some people say the camber in general is way off. But I have always been able to set the fronts. I had problems setting the rears though. Then I started messing with the ride height, and the rear temps evened out. If your pedals and wheel is on joystick #1 the demo will work properly. In the game you can pretty much set it up to whatever you wish. So while I have not tried putting the pedals on joystick #2 I think you can. Don't think it will be. Since you were trying the demo, that must mean you have a 3dfx card. You should be all set if your CPU is a P5-166 or better. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

The other day I pulled off an amazing 3rd gear slide at Melbourne. I was powering on, she starts to go, then perfect correction / gas combo & we're sliding smoothly. And today, exiting a hairpin (can't remember where..), I gassed it in 1st, and to my own amazement, saved a near 90 degrees sideways. The trick is LOTS & LOTS of practice, and for this trick, I began correcting almost before losing it ( As it should be .) > - I'm not just defending GP2, It really is very realistic, you can really > hold a massively long slide on a touch of opposite lock, with your foot > down! The change in weight distribution as you brake and change direction > is spot on.

HELLO. Have you ever saw a Formula 1 car do a powerslide? WTF If you like powerslides, get a sprint car sim. Formula 1 cars don't slide, they just go. The ability to powerslide just shows that these sims just aren't too realistic after all. I hate that the fastest way around a track is to slide around a turn. In real life, you'd be crying mama as you spun into a wall.

>HELLO. Have you ever saw a Formula 1 car do a powerslide? WTF If you like <...> I haven't seen, but I've heard that Ayrton Senna and Keke Rosberg have done. -Teemu. --

(snip) HELLO. Have you ever saw a Formula 1 car do a powerslide? (unsnip) Oh, yes indeedy, old son! That's *EXACTLY* why I am awaiting the release of GP Legends. Oh....you probably are too young to remember F1 without wings, automatic gizmos and pretzel-shaped circuits. Sorry. -- Bruce. (At home)

Granted, power-slides aren't common in F1, especially as the cornering speed goes up, and they also heat up the tires, but they aren't non-existent, either. For instance, both Schumacher and Villeneuve were sliding the cars a LOT coming off the last hairpin at Jerez last year. Rick

I think you'd better watch an F1 or 2 , think about it idiot, are you a champion F1 driver?. Ask M Schumacher whether or not his car can slide. They don't slide much when you don't want them to. wsiegler wrote this shit :

I think you'd better watch an F1 or 2 , think about it idiot, are you a champion F1 driver?. Ask M Schumacher whether or not his car can slide. They don't slide much when you don't want them to. And if he wanted it to, he'd be doing 150 sideways while drinking a coffee Shit For Brains wsiegler wrote this shit :

I think we might have another nomination for the ***s of the Universe club..... PAPA DOC President for life of the ***s of the Universe.... Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Infamous Pink Flamingo Pilot...

I have my Jochen Rindt painted Helmet ready to go....for GPL. Also F1 cars do presently slide....its not big daring slides...but they do slide. Go catch a ride with Alesi, sit on the airbox and go around Spa...you will see. PAPA DOC Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Infamous Pink Flamingo Pilot...

Um which game did you do this with? I almost assume it was GP2. -- Header intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. >The other day I pulled off an amazing 3rd gear slide at Melbourne. I was >powering on, she starts to go, then perfect correction / gas combo & we're >sliding smoothly. >And today, exiting a hairpin (can't remember where..), I gassed it in 1st, and >to my own amazement, saved a near 90 degrees sideways. The trick is LOTS & >LOTS of practice, and for this trick, I began correcting almost before losing >it ( As it should be .) >> - I'm not just defending GP2, It really is very realistic, you can really >> hold a massively long slide on a touch of opposite lock, with your foot >> down! The change in weight distribution as you brake and change direction >> is spot on.

On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:00:31 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >Yes the setups are much better. You can even crank the RPM of the engine >up (don't remember that in GP2). The setups seem pretty much the same to me. GP2 separated slow and fast damping, which is very useful for tuning your car to your driving style (don't remember that in F1RS). The telemetry function in GP2 was also better, an important branch of setting up the car. All in all IMO there's little difference between the two garages. F1RS is newer, that's all. Cheers! John

Well we now have tire temps across the tire and when they get it working correctly in F1 Racing sim will be quite a helpful aid. Currently it seems broken as changing camber sometimes affect temps and most times doesnt....wierdly I cannot get the inside of the front tires to at least come within 2 degrees of the outside...no matter what I do...strange...but Im still working. My Estoril Setup is now my favorite setup....as I have finally started getting it to turn in properly in high speed corners. The first turn complex is so cool to go thru now...at first it was a bear....of course the final turn is still giving me fits. Being delicate with the wheel seems to pay off. PAPA DOC Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Infamous Pink Flamingo Pilot...

>Currently it seems broken as changing camber sometimes affect temps >and most times doesnt....wierdly I cannot get the inside of the front >tires to at least come within 2 degrees of the outside...no matter >what I do...strange...but Im still working. My Estoril Setup is now my Don't forget that all suspension setting play a role in tire temps... Bill -------- "NASCAR is the Professional Wrestling of Motorsport." -Me-

>Currently it seems broken as changing camber sometimes affect temps >and most times doesnt....wierdly I cannot get the inside of the front >tires to at least come within 2 degrees of the outside...no matter >what I do...strange...but Im still working. I've also noticed that it doesn't affect the temps as much as I would expect. *However* it does seem to affect the handling of the car pretty much in line with my expectations. Since the only point of evening out the temps is to try and get balanced tyre wear (and even then it's rarely the case that the temps should be exactly the same) I'm happy enough to gauge the tyre wear by reference to the wear gauge and lap times. After all the latter of these is the only one that really matters ;-) Cheers, Richard

Why not go up to Oxford Street and get it from Electronics Boutique, then if you don't like it you can take it back. I'm sure you won't need to though it is nothing like TOCA. -- Sean Black

Ah, well yes I have. Schumacher in the rain at the Nurburgring when he was 4s a lap faster than everyone else was having fun booting it out of corners completely sideways. From memory at Canada a few years back Alesi was getting some good sideways action happening at the hairpin. > HELLO. Have you ever saw a Formula 1 car do a powerslide? WTF If you like > powerslides, get a sprint car sim. Formula 1 cars don't slide, they just > go. The ability to powerslide just shows that these sims just aren't too > realistic after all. I hate that the fastest way around a track is to slide > around a turn. In real life, you'd be crying mama as you spun into a wall.

I would like scales....yes I know thats a serious nitpick....but hey Im in a nit picking mood. Scales might be fun to play with....four wheel scales....and where is the toe adjustments...Im not joking..I have the Race to Win series of books and plan on opening them up to help me get some serious setups. Pierre Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Infamous Pink Flamingo Pilot...

>I've also noticed that it doesn't affect the temps as much as I would >expect. *However* it does seem to affect the handling of the car pretty >much in line with my expectations. Since the only point of evening out >the temps is to try and get balanced tyre wear Of greater importance is the potential for increased grip, no? If your temps and wear are more pronounced on the outside of the tyre it tells you that that area of the tyre is being asked to do more work by carrying a disproportionate amount of the work of the tyre. By evening out the temps you can make better use of the full width of the tyre, increasing overall grip and improving wear. That's not always the case, and average lap-times over the distance of your race fuel-load will be the ultimate guide as always. Cheers! John

>I would like scales....yes I know thats a serious nitpick....but hey >Im in a nit picking mood. Scales might be fun to play with....four >wheel scales....and where is the toe adjustments...Im not joking..I >have the Race to Win series of books and plan on opening them up to >help me get some serious setups. Careful, you'll be accused of taking this all too seriously ;-) Personally, I love the fact that the sims have now got to the point where we can take the info in the books by Carroll Smith & others and apply it to the sims <g> Cheers, Richard

>Of greater importance is the potential for increased grip, no? Yes, but... ...even temperature is not a very good measure of achieving maximum grip. I'm going to quote here from Carroll Smith's 'Drive to Win' since he probably knows far more about this than the combined knowledge of this ng: "Some racers try to set optimum camber by measuring tire temperature in the pits, adjusting camber until they achieve an even temperature distribution across the surface of the tire. This does not work. A properly inflated tire will give its best performance when it measures 10 to 15 degrees F. hot on the inside." He goes on to say that camber should be set to obtain maximum cornering performance - hence your initial statement is correct <g> Cheers, Richard

Quoted text (23 lines)

> >Of greater importance is the potential for increased grip, no? > Yes, but... > >If your temps and wear are more pronounced on the outside of the tyre > >it tells you that that area of the tyre is being asked to do more work > >by carrying a disproportionate amount of the work of the tyre. By > >evening out the temps you can make better use of the full width of the > >tyre, increasing overall grip and improving wear. > ...even temperature is not a very good measure of achieving maximum grip. > I'm going to quote here from Carroll Smith's 'Drive to Win' since he > probably knows far more about this than the combined knowledge of this > ng: > "Some racers try to set optimum camber by measuring tire temperature in > the pits, adjusting camber until they achieve an even temperature > distribution across the surface of the tire. This does not work. A > properly inflated tire will give its best performance when it measures 10 > to 15 degrees F. hot on the inside." > He goes on to say that camber should be set to obtain maximum cornering > performance - hence your initial statement is correct <g>

I`m going to put my foot in my mouth here probably, but how about braking distances ? If you go too far on camber wont that affect your contact surface when it`s time to use the anchors, and more importantly for this group, does our latest sims modell this ??? Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy

Ive been really screwing around with setups at Estoril cause its such a good testing track. I now have even temps across all tires and my times have never been quicker...(probably slow to y'all but 1:21 is quick for me)...but I still feel like Im not getting all I can out of the car....and this tweaking is a blast. But alas I cannot find my Race to Win series in the house...so will have to go to the storage room and dig around. This series of books is probably akin to Fighter Combat for Jet Sim Pilots....a bible of sorts. Really well done and Carroll Smith does a fantastic job of making the obscure clear. Bought them so long ago when I considered a serious attempt at becoming wonderful at driving. <VBG> Pierre Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Infamous Pink Flamingo Pilot...

>...even temperature is not a very good measure of achieving maximum grip. >I'm going to quote here from Carroll Smith's 'Drive to Win' since he >probably knows far more about this than the combined knowledge of this >ng: Two things... 1) Carroll Smith is talking about real world situations, affected by issues which may or may not be modelled in a sim. The real world information was found by informed speculation and by trial and error, and that is how it needs to be found in sims too (or Dave Kaemmer could just tell us exactly what is modelled and what will work!). 2) Even given parity of forces acting on the car between real world and sim, Carroll does not tell us (or perhaps only you do not tell us!) when the temperatures were taken, and with what equipment. A slowing down lap could affect temperatures to be measured in the pits (since the car and tyres would not be operating under full load), or perhaps they are comparing on-line realtime data as we are. Without knowing that apples are being compared to apples it is difficult to draw conclusions, for me at least. Additionally, given that Prost and Senna had different setup ethos (and driving styles) and Hill and Villeneuve also different styles of driving and setup, and both were with the same team and equipment, I'd say it's not a subject on which anyone can claim to have definitive knowledge. If the clock tells you it works, then it works, although to be honest I doubt that most of us would be consistent enough in driving over a full fuel load to be able to tell the difference. Cheers! John

Actually I agree with you :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. >Sorry, it was F1 Sim. The only game I play now ( except for a bit of GTA) >F1 's do slide, people here just haven't played it anywhere near enough to make >a real judgement on it's realism. This game is amazing. >Oh yeah, I watch & tape every GP (for 6 years), and went to Adelaide in 1994. >Nothing comes close to this game's realism. >> Um which game did you do this with? I almost assume it was GP2. >>snip

Sorry, it was F1 Sim. The only game I play now ( except for a bit of GTA) F1 's do slide, people here just haven't played it anywhere near enough to make a real judgement on it's realism. This game is amazing. Oh yeah, I watch & tape every GP (for 6 years), and went to Adelaide in 1994. Nothing comes close to this game's realism. > Um which game did you do this with? I almost assume it was GP2. >snip

>If you go too far on camber wont that affect your contact surface when >it`s time to use the anchors, and more importantly for this group, does >our latest sims modell this ??? To some extent this is true - very true in fact for bias ply tyres. But radial tyres don't lose much longitudinal performance (i.e. braking / accelerating) with increased camber. [this is paraphrasing Carroll Smith] As to whether the sims model this correctly, or even at all, depends on what the developer believes is right and whether they programmed it right according to that belief ;-) FWIW, excessive camber in N2 seems to reduce top speeds. I'm not sure about ICR2 (I don't think I was ever consistent enough to be able to tell <g>), GP2 doesn't model variable camber at all and I haven't experimented in F1RS as I find values around -7 / -8 to be perfectly adequate. Cheers, Richard

> To some extent this is true - very true in fact for bias ply tyres. But > radial tyres don't lose much longitudinal performance (i.e. braking / > accelerating) with increased camber. [this is paraphrasing Carroll Smith] Yes but is racing slicks radials, because when I put slicks on my roadcar I loose all the "feel" that I have when I`m using road tyres and I suppose this is because of the incredible stiff sidewalls, and since they don`t distort much, I`d guess that excessive camber would reduce the contact area while travelling in a straight line or..... Would be nice to know though :-) I`ve never noticed this in N2, thanks I`ll give it a try, got a race to run this weekend in the TPTCC Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy

% ...even temperature is not a very good measure of achieving maximum grip. % I'm going to quote here from Carroll Smith's 'Drive to Win' since he % probably knows far more about this than the combined knowledge of this % ng: % "Some racers try to set optimum camber by measuring tire temperature in % the pits, adjusting camber until they achieve an even temperature % distribution across the surface of the tire. This does not work. A % properly inflated tire will give its best performance when it measures 10 % to 15 degrees F. hot on the inside." % He goes on to say that camber should be set to obtain maximum cornering % performance - hence your initial statement is correct <g> I agree. However, I start my setups by attempting to achieve even temparatures. This is a starting point. From there one should alter the camber for cornering grip. I also believe there is a fine balance which also needs to be achieved. Too much camber (depending on the circuit and the driving style) can lead to blistering or excesive tire wear. I like to find a camber setting that will allow the tires to even out their temps while on straights, but allows for heat to build up during turns. This usually provides a good balance for performance and tire wear. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

True, but it does indicate that the commonly accepted wisdom that temperatures should be even is not accepted by every knowledgable race engineer. The effect on each sim will depend on what the developer believes to be the truth. But knowing that the developer *might* validly not subscribe to the even temperature theory means that it may not be worthwhile trying to slavishly even out the temperatures. The clock is all that matters - and being consistent enough that the clock *does* matter ;-) Cheers, Richard

A perfectly sensible approach, although not the one I normally use ;-). I don't tend to be so scientific and rely more on gut feel and tweaking based on previous experience. As such I use tyre temperatures more as a reality check than as something I'm positively trying to achieve. A more structured approach would probably result in a shorter development time - largely because I can end up going down some pretty blind alleys - but it's not really in my nature <g> Cheers, Richard

1:21 is quick to me. My best at Estoril is 1:23.850. Of course that was with a stock unmodified setup :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:16:26 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >I always thought so. When I setup the papy sims, I always tried >to get the maxium grip from all the tires. So I tried to get all the >tires the same temp. I always thought a by product of that, was >the balanced tire wear which I didn't really care about :-) It's an impossibility to have all four tyres the same temperature due to the differing loads upon them. What you want to do is have corners balancing across a diagonal - RF+LR = LF+RR. That is one approach anyway, and worked very well for me in ICR2. Not sure how it works in N2 though, I've not done enough setup development to know. Cheers! John

>>> HELLO. Have you ever saw a Formula 1 car do a powerslide? WTF If you like >>> powerslides, get a sprint car sim. Formula 1 cars don't slide, they just >>> go. The ability to powerslide just shows that these sims just aren't too >>> realistic after all. I hate that the fastest way around a track is to slide >>> around a turn. In real life, you'd be crying mama as you spun into a wall. Get a life. I saw Schu do one, RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, at the Senna curve in Montreal. Did the last part of the turn without using the steering wheel. At all. Sometime it helps to know what you're talking about....

>>>> HELLO. Have you ever saw a Formula 1 car do a powerslide? WTF If you like >>>> powerslides, get a sprint car sim. Formula 1 cars don't slide, they just >>>> go. The ability to powerslide just shows that these sims just aren't too >>>> realistic after all. I hate that the fastest way around a track is to slide >>>> around a turn. In real life, you'd be crying mama as you spun into a wall. > Get a life. I saw Schu do one, RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, at the >Senna curve in Montreal. Did the last part of the turn without using >the steering wheel. At all. > Sometime it helps to know what you're talking about.... It helps even more to quote the right person. DUH. Papadoc is a friend and I don't appreciate you crapping on him falsely. hehe. -- Header intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

Not to worry pilgrim....Im all the way around this group.<VBG> PAPA DOC

Quoted text (9 lines)

>> Sometime it helps to know what you're talking about.... >It helps even more to quote the right person. DUH. Papadoc is a friend >and I don't appreciate you crapping on him falsely. >hehe. >-- >Header intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Infamous Pink Flamingo Pilot...

On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:52:27 -0600, "Greg Cisko"

Quoted text (21 lines)

>>>>> HELLO. Have you ever saw a Formula 1 car do a powerslide? WTF If you >like >>>>> powerslides, get a sprint car sim. Formula 1 cars don't slide, they >just >>>>> go. The ability to powerslide just shows that these sims just aren't >too >>>>> realistic after all. I hate that the fastest way around a track is to >slide >>>>> around a turn. In real life, you'd be crying mama as you spun into a >wall. >> Get a life. I saw Schu do one, RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, at the >>Senna curve in Montreal. Did the last part of the turn without using >>the steering wheel. At all. >> Sometime it helps to know what you're talking about.... >It helps even more to quote the right person. DUH. Papadoc is a friend >and I don't appreciate you crapping on him falsely. >hehe.

Doh! Serves me right for reading the news at 2AM. Missed that little 'from' line. Next time I will get some sleep first... :) Sorry, Jeff

I dont believe that a powerslide is planned, but more a result of driving on the edge. When an F1 driver looks at a track do you think he says, Hmm, I think I powerslide through turns 3, 5, and 7?

>>>> HELLO. Have you ever saw a Formula 1 car do a powerslide? WTF If you like >>>> powerslides, get a sprint car sim. Formula 1 cars don't slide, they just >>>> go. The ability to powerslide just shows that these sims just aren't too >>>> realistic after all. I hate that the fastest way around a track is to slide >>>> around a turn. In real life, you'd be crying mama as you spun into a wall. > Get a life. I saw Schu do one, RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, at the >Senna curve in Montreal. Did the last part of the turn without using >the steering wheel. At all. > Sometime it helps to know what you're talking about.... Hmmm, don't want to flame Pierre here (btw are you French ??) BUT, Schumi is the God of powerslides at the Senna Curve in Montral... I saw him since he is in Formula1 at the track, and he is the ONLY who can do it. Not even Ayrton Senna. I saw Ukyo Katayama do it 1 time in practice and he hit the wall :-) Don't even bother wondering why it's all Red now in the Senna Corner grandstand (except me in blue!). They are all here to see Schumacher master this corner. Unbelievable... Btw you can do it with F1RS. Not like him but it can _look_ like a powerslide. Just my 2 Canadian (witch is about 1,4US !) Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard on NROS> Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ May the downforce be with you and Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) begin 666 ymenard.vcf M0D5'24XZ5D-!4D0-"DXZ3>EN87)D.T9R86[G;VES.TXN#0I&3CIY;65N87)D M3#M#14Q,.U9/24-%.DXO00T*5$5,.TA/344[1D%8.DXO00T*0412.TA/344Z M.SLQ,30V.2!/=FED92U#;&5R;6]N=#M-;VYT<F5A;"U.;W)D.U%U96)E8SM( M3E1!0DQ%.C$Q-#8Y($]V:61E+4-L97)M;VYT/3!$/3!!36]N=')E86PM3F]R M+F%W<'-S+F-O;2\-"E523#IH='1P.B\O=W=W+F%W<'-S+F-O;2\-"D5-04E, M.U!2148[24Y415).150Z>6UE;F%R9$!A=W!S<RYC;VT-"D5.1#I60T%21 T* ` end

hmmm this quoting stuff is Rocket Science right...??? Geez come on people actually read the posts your responding to. Not to flame you ymenard....<VBG> PAPA DOC

Quoted text (27 lines)

>Hmmm, don't want to flame Pierre here (btw are you French ??) BUT, Schumi is >the God of powerslides at the Senna Curve in Montral... >I saw him since he is in Formula1 at the track, and he is the ONLY who can >do it. Not even Ayrton Senna. I saw Ukyo Katayama do it 1 time in practice >and he hit the wall :-) >Don't even bother wondering why it's all Red now in the Senna Corner >grandstand (except me in blue!). They are all here to see Schumacher master >this corner. Unbelievable... Btw you can do it with F1RS. Not like him but >it can _look_ like a powerslide. Just my 2 Canadian (witch is about 1,4US >!) >Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard on NROS> Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ >May the downforce be with you and Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) >- Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. >- Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) >- Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) >begin 666 ymenard.vcf >M0D5'24XZ5D-!4D0-"DXZ3>EN87)D.T9R86[G;VES.TXN#0I&3CIY;65N87)D >M3#M#14Q,.U9/24-%.DXO00T*5$5,.TA/344[1D%8.DXO00T*0412.TA/344Z >M.SLQ,30V.2!/=FED92U#;&5R;6]N=#M-;VYT<F5A;"U.;W)D.U%U96)E8SM( >M3E1!0DQ%.C$Q-#8Y($]V:61E+4-L97)M;VYT/3!$/3!!36]N=')E86PM3F]R >M+F%W<'-S+F-O;2\-"E523#IH='1P.B\O=W=W+F%W<'-S+F-O;2\-"D5-04E, >M.U!2148[24Y415).150Z>6UE;F%R9$!A=W!S<RYC;VT-"D5.1#I60T%21 T* >` >end

Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Infamous Pink Flamingo Pilot...<G>

Pierre... Do you mean actually the thing at the bottom ?? It's my *vcf file who contains some information. With IE 4.0 or Communicator I think you are able to see them. If it bothers most of the newsgroup readers I put it out. Btw I didn't really understood the point you were trying to make... I was just making a fact that in Senna's curve Shumacher is the only driver who has the balls to make powerslides there. Did I said something that you didn't like ? If yes tell me I will make my possible to don't do it anymore. Btw are you French, or does your parents are French related ? I wrote : <snip>

Quoted text (12 lines)

>>begin 666 ymenard.vcf >>M0D5'24XZ5D-!4D0-"DXZ3>EN87)D.T9R86[G;VES.TXN#0I&3CIY;65N87)D >>M3#M#14Q,.U9/24-%.DXO00T*5$5,.TA/344[1D%8.DXO00T*0412.TA/344Z >>M.SLQ,30V.2!/=FED92U#;&5R;6]N=#M-;VYT<F5A;"U.;W)D.U%U96)E8SM( >>M3E1!0DQ%.C$Q-#8Y($]V:61E+4-L97)M;VYT/3!$/3!!36]N=')E86PM3F]R >>M+F%W<'-S+F-O;2\-"E523#IH='1P.B\O=W=W+F%W<'-S+F-O;2\-"D5-04E, >>M.U!2148[24Y415).150Z>6UE;F%R9$!A=W!S<RYC;VT-"D5.1#I60T%21 T* >>` >>end

Not to rain on the powerslide parade, but more often than not powersliding is not the fastest way around the track in a modern F1 car. If you are powersliding the wheels are spinning and not transferring power to the track as well as they should be. That said, I believe the recent Ferrari designs have required some "manhandling" in order to hustle them around the track quickly. Powersliding is a crowd pleaser, but it generally doesn't do too much for tyre wear, lap time, or chances of spinning off into the sh***y! Cheers! John

>Not to rain on the powerslide parade, but more often than not >powersliding is not the fastest way around the track in a modern F1 >car. If you are powersliding the wheels are spinning and not >transferring power to the track as well as they should be. That said, This is certainly true in F1RS. If I start spinning the rears with too much power out of the turns, I know that lap will not be good. It is actually quite noticable if you bother to watch :-) Ya I wonder how much the formula changes will***everything up. I am certainly not into grooved tires in the dry. Did they decide to drop the grooves or not? I read that the grooves was the reason that Goodyear pulled out of F1 after this year. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:01:21 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >Ya I wonder how much the formula changes will***everything up. >I am certainly not into grooved tires in the dry. Did they decide to drop >the grooves or not? I read that the grooves was the reason that Goodyear >pulled out of F1 after this year. The current rumour is that Goodyear will be persuaded to stay, but you're right, their original decision to leave was because of the grooves. Frankly I suspect that, like Honda, they realised they'd had their day. Despite what their advertising suggests, the Bridgestone appeared to be the better tyre last year, and the success of Goodyear was thanks more to McLaren, Williams and Ferrari than Goodyear themselves. With McLaren and Benneton optin for Bridgestone (and Fisichella already looking damn quick in a Bridgestone-shod Benneton) I think Goodyear may be getting a little nervous. As for the tyre, time will tell. I'm not a fan of them, in fact I'd like to see ground-effect, active-suspension, turbo-power, qualifying tyres, heck even the Brabham fan car, all made legal. F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle, let them rip. Instead of changing the cars year after year in a futile attempt to slow them down, spend some of that enormous research budget of improving the circuits to make them safer to race. That makes them better for all formulae, as well as for the spectators (I've heard of dung beetles refusing to go to Silverstone without a grandstand ticket - the space alloted for those without a ticket is _atrocious_. 70 to sit on stony dirt for two hours (or more like ten if you actually want to be close enough to see a car)? No thanks). Cheers! John

Quoted text (9 lines)

>As for the tyre, time will tell. I'm not a fan of them, in fact I'd >like to see ground-effect, active-suspension, turbo-power, qualifying >tyres, heck even the Brabham fan car, all made legal. F1 is supposed >to be the pinnacle, let them rip. >Instead of changing the cars year after year in a futile attempt to >slow them down, spend some of that enormous research budget of >improving the circuits to make them safer to race. That makes them >better for all formulae, as well as for the spectators

If your going to allow all those things back to F1,I think your budget will have to be pretty huge.You'll probably have to redesign the drivers so they can stand the G-force they would suffer in corners.Remember that F1 drivers were even talking about needing G-suits (like fighter pilots wear),a few years ago.Even with these I don't think anyone could suffer the forces that could be developed by a car designed to an unrestricted formula(using todays technology),certainly not for an entire Grand Prix.

Quoted text (11 lines)

> Instead of changing the cars year after year in a futile attempt to > slow them down, spend some of that enormous research budget of > improving the circuits to make them safer to race. That makes them > better for all formulae, as well as for the spectators (I've heard of > dung beetles refusing to go to Silverstone without a grandstand ticket > - the space alloted for those without a ticket is _atrocious_. 70 to > sit on stony dirt for two hours (or more like ten if you actually want > to be close enough to see a car)? No thanks). > Cheers! > John

After reading this I feel a little less lonely here on planet earth knowing now that there are actually other INTELLIGENT lifeforms here, hehehehehehe. My thoughts exactly. -- We are the Hosh! You will be assimilated! Lower your defences and surrender! Your technological and biological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Your culture will be adapted to service us. Resistance is futile. Have a nice &*($ing day!

It already is. Change is expensive, stability is not, and it is in changing the rules all the time that the gulf between the haves and have-nots becomes greater. In the meantime the spectacle becomes diminished, as the cars this year have less downforce than last years F3 regs. Cheers! John

Quoted text (7 lines)

> >have-nots becomes greater. In the meantime the spectacle becomes > >diminished, as the cars this year have less downforce than last years > >F3 regs. > Basically I agree, yet, Schumi was faster on grooved tires in Mugello > this year than last year. This lets me hope that the diminishment of > the spectacle is not so big that F1 degenerates to F3.

I think, F3 races are often more enjoyable than F1 races because they actually race each other instead of parading down the track waiting for a pit stop... Of course, nobody knows if the changes for this year will actually lead to more close contact racing... l8er ronny -- |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Quoted text (8 lines)

> It already is. Change is expensive, stability is not, and it is in > changing the rules all the time that the gulf between the haves and > have-nots becomes greater. In the meantime the spectacle becomes > diminished, as the cars this year have less downforce than last years > F3 regs. > Cheers! > John

The above statement is not true about this year's f1 cars having *less* downforce than last years f3 regs. The only thing changed about this year's cars is that the rear track has been narrowed. The sidepods haven't been narrowed much at all if any. Scummi has said that to brake for the fast corners the braking points are nearly the same. RC

Perhaps I should have said less grip rather than less downforce, but it is a fact that this year's F1 cars have less overall grip than 97 spec F3 cars. Regarding the new regs, I don't know where you heard that the cars are similar since they are significantly different in many ways from 1997. Width, grip, downforce, tyres, all different, and although braking points are the same (thanks to brake compounds remaining unchanged) the margin for error is significantly changed. Cheers! John

There are/is an unlimited powerboat category. The driver/pilot/captains in those seem to put up with high-G well in excess of anything dished out by today's F1 cars. -- Suck The Goat

I'm not referring to todays F1 cars or drivers.I havn't got the figures readily to hand, but I will retrieve them when I have time.It certainly was the case that some years ago,(Prost was still driving) that I read articles stating that many drivers were having trouble coping with the G-forces in the cars of the day.If they didn't restrict the Formula god knows what would happen.Have you ever noticed that each years restrictions always involve reducing cornering speeds? Remember that in an F1 car going through a long curve the forces exist at their peak for quite some time,which is far worse than a high instantaneous G force.Also look at the G-loadings that you face each lap braking ,accelerating and cornering many times a lap.Each application of G loading decreases your subsequent ability to resist furter G loading. I don't really follow powerboats,but most that I have seen use aerodynamics to firstly reduce drag by lifting the hull,or planes and then to achieve stability.I really doubt they would have very high sustained lateral G -loadings,but I'm intrigued now so I will try and find out. On Wed, 18 Feb 98 08:14:04 GMT, "Piers C. Structures"

Quoted text (15 lines)

>> If your going to allow all those things back to F1,I think your budget >> will have to be pretty huge.You'll probably have to redesign the >> drivers so they can stand the G-force they would suffer in >> corners.Remember that F1 drivers were even talking about needing >> G-suits (like fighter pilots wear),a few years ago.Even with these I >> don't think anyone could suffer the forces that could be developed by >> a car designed to an unrestricted formula(using todays >> technology),certainly not for an entire Grand Prix. >There are/is an unlimited powerboat category. The driver/pilot/captains >in those seem to put up with high-G well in excess of anything dished >out by today's F1 cars. >-- >Suck The Goat