Before I waste my time downloading the patch, is the AI fixed? Is
the AI fixed on the ovals? Or do they still slow down in the turns.
Frankly after playing F1RS, I am tempted to just delete CPR and
not worry about it anymore.
--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.
CPR patch verdict turns into GP2 versus F1RS argument
Asked whether the CART Precision Racing patch fixed the AI, several replied it did not and they had deleted the game. The thread turned into a long, heated argument between Greg Cisko, who said F1RS made GP2 obsolete, and Randy Magruder, John Wallace and Richard Walker, who preferred aspects of GP2's driving feel and menus. Later posts covered Microsoft's statements about further CPR support.
Automated summary.
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:29:35 -0600, "Greg Cisko"
>Before I waste my time downloading the patch, is the AI fixed?
No.
No.
Yes.
Been there, done that.
I'm not happy about doing that, CPR was a valiant attempt, but when
there's F1RS, ICR2 and GP2 it just doesn't cut it when compared to the
competition. I have the demo saved somewhere, and that'll do me until
V2.0 arrives.
Cheers!
John
>>Frankly after playing F1RS, I am tempted to just delete CPR and
>>not worry about it anymore.
>Been there, done that.
If you have been playing F1RS and like it, I *guarantee* you won't like
CPR. When I went back to CPR after a couple of weeks of F1RS, I was
repelled.
Save your time energy for something fun or useful (as in, doing
something other than trying to get CPR to work!)
I concur. <Click> Delete. Bye, bye CPR.
Too bad the 30 day return window has passed so I can't hit Microsoft
where it counts: in the bottom line. But even if I could get my 50
bucks back, nothing would replace all those hours I wasted on this dud.
Eagle Woman
Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me.
http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alison
The AI doesnt slow down for corners, but still drives bad. They still cause
big wrecks. Basically the game still stinks. I havent played F1RS, how is it?
But . . . You've probably hit 'em in the bottom line a lot worse than you
realize. I was just about to buy CPR because I thought there was a serious
commitment being made to support it. But thanks to your posts (and others,
of course, but mainly yours) I made up my mind to pass. Doesn't help your
pocketbook any, I know, but maybe the satisfaction you helped somebody else
put their money to better use (F1RS is on the way) is worthwhile. And I bet
I'm not the only one to follow this route, either. Thanks to all who told
it like it was and tell it like it is. (But I don't have a closed mind. If
they ever fix CPR . . . )
Jerry Morelock
<snip>
Quoted text (11 lines)
>Too bad the 30 day return window has passed so I can't hit Microsoft >where it counts: in the bottom line. But even if I could get my 50 >bucks back, nothing would replace all those hours I wasted on this dud. >Eagle Woman >Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. >http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alisonThanks for the info, I'll pass.
GP2? When there is F1RS, GP2 goes in the grabage can. Mine just did :-)
--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.
>If you have been playing F1RS and like it, I *guarantee* you won't like
>CPR. When I went back to CPR after a couple of weeks of F1RS, I was
>repelled.
I wish I had something tangible to collect from you on that guarantee,
Alison. I've spent a lot of time on both sims. For some reason, F1RS
is just too sterile for me. I wish I knew why, but all things
considered, I'll take GP2, warts and all, over F1RS. As far as CPR?
Well, on the tracks that I've spent time on, once I got my setups in
line with the new grip model, I rather had fun. My biggest problem is
still that the car spins too easily and is difficult to take back, but
I'm getting better. The AI is also much improved. They are doing a
darned good job at avoiding me as I spin around on the track :) I'm
not impuning F1RS...its clearly a more solid overall product right now
than CPR is, but I still think that CPR's tracks and graphics look
better and the game sounds a lot better too. The driving physics
still need work (no surprise), but I still think there is promise for
CPR if Microsoft keeps hacking away on it.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Contributing Reviewer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com
The AI is better, but still slows down too much in the turns. The road
courses are now competitive, the oval courses aren't. The only way I can
find to make oval courses competitive is to race on soft tires and stay in
5th gear! You can get a 1 lap lead on the entire field within 10 laps, wear
your tires out, then come in to change your tires, lose your lead... and do
it all over again. Actually it gets boring real quick for its lack of
realism. I hope this is not the last patch. If you just want to race road
courses, it is now a decent game. If you want to race a season...the ovals
ruin the realism by being too easy. I originally gave the game a 7.0 in our
Game Pad review, and with the slight AI improvement would probably bump it
up to a 7.8. After more time with the patch we will do a complete
re-review. CPR still doesn't even come close to F1RS though!
Ken
The Game Pad
http://gamepad.org/
Quoted text (7 lines)
> Before I waste my time downloading the patch, is the AI fixed? Is > the AI fixed on the ovals? Or do they still slow down in the turns. > Frankly after playing F1RS, I am tempted to just delete CPR and > not worry about it anymore. > -- > Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.Quoted text (8 lines)
>>If you have been playing F1RS and like it, I *guarantee* you won't like >>CPR. When I went back to CPR after a couple of weeks of F1RS, I was >>repelled. >I wish I had something tangible to collect from you on that guarantee, >Alison. I've spent a lot of time on both sims. For some reason, F1RS >is just too sterile for me. I wish I knew why, but all things >considered, I'll take GP2, warts and all, over F1RS. As far as CPR?It's awesome, if you play the Glide version on a Voodoo Graphics (not
Rush) card. I'd tell you to go read my review on my Web site, but I
haven't had time to do a formal review; I've been too busy racing it!
Eagle Woman
Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me.
http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alison
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:52:58 -0600, "Greg Cisko"
>GP2? When there is F1RS, GP2 goes in the grabage can. Mine just did :-)
Well, I'm not quite that enthusiastic about F1RS. It's good, but then
so is GP2 and the differening reasons are enough to make me keep them
both.
(The fact that both are currently gathering dust on my "unrequired
software" shelf may or may not be germane to the discussion!).
Cheers!
John
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:19:06 -0500, "Jerry Morelock"
Thanks for this feedback. Amid all the flames from people who love CPR,
I appreciate hearing that some people value my opinion. I'm of two
minds with the thought that my comments have influenced the sales of CPR
adversely.
On the one hand, if I can help some people avoid the kind of effort and
disappointment I've gone through, I'm very glad. And it's good to send
MS the message that CPR needs help, big time. Soon after its release,
Dean said that it was selling very well. But initial sales most likely
reflect the effectiveness of the advertising, while sales after a period
of time, when word of a product's quality gets around, are more likely
to reflect that quality.
On the other hand, some people do really like CPR, and I'd not want to
discourage people from trying it if it's really their thing. Also, if
diminishing sales cause TRI and MS to abandon the sim market as not
being lucrative enough, we're all a bit worse off. There are so few
racing sim manufacturers that the loss of one hurts all of us sim
racers.
I agree. I'd *love* it if CPR became the sim that its advertising says
it is, and which so many of its peripheral components suggest it might
be.
Eagle Woman
Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me.
http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alison
Quoted text (8 lines)
>But . . . You've probably hit 'em in the bottom line a lot worse than you >realize. I was just about to buy CPR because I thought there was a serious >commitment being made to support it. But thanks to your posts (and others, >of course, but mainly yours) I made up my mind to pass. Doesn't help your >pocketbook any, I know, but maybe the satisfaction you helped somebody else >put their money to better use (F1RS is on the way) is worthwhile. And I bet >I'm not the only one to follow this route, either. Thanks to all who told >it like it was and tell it like it is.Quoted text (8 lines)
>>If you have been playing F1RS and like it, I *guarantee* you won't like >>CPR. When I went back to CPR after a couple of weeks of F1RS, I was >>repelled. >I wish I had something tangible to collect from you on that guarantee, >Alison. I've spent a lot of time on both sims. For some reason, F1RS >is just too sterile for me. I wish I knew why, but all things >considered, I'll take GP2, warts and all, over F1RS.>Don't take this the wrong way, but this statement about GP2 being better
>than F1RS pretty much disqualifies you from knowing anything about
>this stuff IMHO.
Gee, how am I supposed to take that the *RIGHT* way? By the way, when
you write something like that, and don't back it up, its just a
personal cheap-shot.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Contributing Reviewer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com
Quoted text (8 lines)
>On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:52:58 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >>GP2? When there is F1RS, GP2 goes in the grabage can. Mine just did :-) >Well, I'm not quite that enthusiastic about F1RS. It's good, but then >so is GP2 and the differening reasons are enough to make me keep them >both.Quoted text (8 lines)
>On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:52:58 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >>GP2? When there is F1RS, GP2 goes in the grabage can. Mine just did :-) >Well, I'm not quite that enthusiastic about F1RS. It's good, but then >so is GP2 and the differening reasons are enough to make me keep them >both.>Look out. I've already been told by someone here that because I
>prefer GP2 I am "disqualified from knowing anything aboutthis stuff"
That someone would be me. At least you apparently understood my post :-)
Not at all. It is just that if you say something that is obvious rubbish,
you will
be called to task on it. Sorry.
--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.
Quoted text (7 lines)
>>Don't take this the wrong way, but this statement about GP2 being better >>than F1RS pretty much disqualifies you from knowing anything about >>this stuff IMHO. >Gee, how am I supposed to take that the *RIGHT* way? By the way, when >you write something like that, and don't back it up, its just a >personal cheap-shot.Quoted text (12 lines)
>>On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:52:58 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >>>GP2? When there is F1RS, GP2 goes in the grabage can. Mine just did :-) >>Well, I'm not quite that enthusiastic about F1RS. It's good, but then >>so is GP2 and the differening reasons are enough to make me keep them >>both. >Well maybe I played GP2 too much because I think it is ***in comparision. >What exactly about GP2 is better than F1RS in you opinion (other than the >race restart thing)?Hey! How do you restart a race in GP2? I could use that feature. After
first corner accidents, especially ...
Arto, "not too eager in reading manuals"
On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 18:24:31 -0600, "Greg Cisko"
> So when
>you say something stupid like GP2 being better than F1RS I guess I will
>call you on it.
>After I stop laughing...
Give up, you're making yourself look a right prat. In many ways, GP2 is
better than F1RS. In roughly the same number of ways, F1RS is better. As
with most sims, direct comparisons are meaningless. Just because you have
an *opinion* doesn't make you right.
And when it comes to the opinions that people look out for because they
know they are worth trusting, I don't recall your name being especially
high on the list....
You're entitled to your opinion, just as Randy is, but if you try
insisting that your opinion is the only one that matters you are digging
a *very* deep hole for yourself.
Cheers,
Richard
Quoted text (13 lines)
>On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 18:24:31 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >> So when >>you say something stupid like GP2 being better than F1RS I guess I will >>call you on it. >>After I stop laughing... >Give up, you're making yourself look a right prat. In many ways, GP2 is >better than F1RS. In roughly the same number of ways, F1RS is better. As >with most sims, direct comparisons are meaningless. Just because you have >an *opinion* doesn't make you right.On Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:27:17 -0600, "Greg Cisko"
>Well excuse me, I guess in order to realize that F1RS is better
>than GP2, you would have to know something about Formula
>One.
By that argument so would you - do you?
It doesn't, that's exactly the point.
Cheers!
John
Quoted text (8 lines)
>On Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:27:17 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >>Well excuse me, I guess in order to realize that F1RS is better >>than GP2, you would have to know something about Formula >>One. >By that argument so would you - do you?than GP2, you would have to know something about Formula
One.>>
How many real Formula One cars have you driven? Please share with us your
solid and reality-based experiences which demonstrate that the driving model is
more realistic in F1RS than GP2? Its easy for you to slam anyone who disagrees
with you, but you haven't actually provided any knowledgable case for what
you're saying.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/
Hey, I didn't say I was a Formula One guru, or an Bernie E. lover.
While I do know my far share of F1 that does not mean that
I know every thing. In fact you just have to know something about
F1 to know that the racing experience in F1RS far surpasses
the racing experience in GP2.
In GP2 you can start a session with hazy weather conditions and
have it clear up? Then have clouds go infront of the sun to make
it cloudy? No. But the changing conditions are part of F1 racing
and F1RS models this fantastically. The physics model in F1RS is
far better than the model in GP2, (which still had the riding rails
feel to it). All you have to do is run F1RS for a few hours with all
the cheats off and you should "get it". In F1RS the sense of speed
far exceeds what GP2 shows. I am constant amazed how the AI
will blast away from you coming out of the turns. This is exactly
what everyone sees from the F1 incar cameras.
OK another one. When driving in the rain (oh nuts GP2 did not
have rain) the physics of the car and handling is totally realistic.
Have I driven an F1 car? No of course not. But I know the real deal
when I see it. I liked GP2 when it was released. I was sad that it
lacked rain. No doubt it would have really screwed the framerate.
IMHO GP2 was just a 640x480 version of World Circuit without rain.
It still had the lame 20 second replays (Papy knows how to do replays
and F1RS is not far behind), no rain (when World Circuit had pretty
good rain), a complete and absolute rip off/excuse for modem/modem
play and no other software support from the MFR.
And you actually have the gall to claim that GP2 is better than F1RS?
HAHAHAHA. Sure the menu in GP2 was better, but so what? I guess
I care more about the driving/racing experience.
--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.
> GP2? When there is F1RS, GP2 goes in the grabage can. Mine just did :-)
Sin! I will keep it with GP1 in a very secure safe and pull it out
for special memorial occasions.
Glad to see you back to your honest self Alison! I thought you'd gone
the way of a misguided flock of sheep there for a while. This opinion is
very valid since anyone who's been around for a while knows that, like
many, you tried hard to like CPR (and be fair toward it) but it
ultimately lead you to endless frustration. My ultimate conclusion is
that there is much anti MS sentiment for very good reason. I severly
doubt CPR can be patched into anything worthwhile. Even a CPR II seems
doomed since it would be going up against the mighty (very probably
mighty) CART II (ICR3). Me thinks MS should get Win 98 and Direct X
right and leave the sims to the experts :) Sorry Bill, no one can
conquer the ENTIRE world, hehehehehehehehe.
Quoted text (29 lines)
> >>Frankly after playing F1RS, I am tempted to just delete CPR and > >>not worry about it anymore. > >Been there, done that. > If you have been playing F1RS and like it, I *guarantee* you won't like > CPR. When I went back to CPR after a couple of weeks of F1RS, I was > repelled. > Save your time energy for something fun or useful (as in, doing > something other than trying to get CPR to work!) > >I'm not happy about doing that, CPR was a valiant attempt, but when > >there's F1RS, ICR2 and GP2 it just doesn't cut it when compared to the > >competition. I have the demo saved somewhere, and that'll do me until > >V2.0 arrives. > I concur. <Click> Delete. Bye, bye CPR. > Too bad the 30 day return window has passed so I can't hit Microsoft > where it counts: in the bottom line. But even if I could get my 50 > bucks back, nothing would replace all those hours I wasted on this dud. > Eagle Woman > Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. > http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alisonQuoted text (7 lines)
> >Before I waste my time downloading the patch, is the AI fixed? Is > >the AI fixed on the ovals? Or do they still slow down in the turns. > >Frankly after playing F1RS, I am tempted to just delete CPR and > >not worry about it anymore. > The AI doesnt slow down for corners, but still drives bad. They still cause > big wrecks. Basically the game still stinks. I havent played F1RS, how is it?Good, finally some substance, okay lets talk.
Since I watch every F1 race and have played each F1 sim (yes, even
Power F1, God help me), I think I can say I know something about the
F1 experience. And the things that you mention are mostly
atmospheric, but lets get to it:
Nope. No weather. Edge: F1RS.
A repeat of the above. No more points scored for stating the same
thing twice.
Challenge taken:
In my opinion, so does F1RS in many ways.
I've spent a lot more than 'few hours" with it and yes all the cheats
are off. In spite of a heckuva lot of setup work, I still find that
the car pushes too much on entry and middle of the corner and wags too
loose on the exit. Part of this has to do with the crummy acceleration
curve relative to gas pedal travel. No matter what I set the gear
ratios to or how many setups I've downloaded off the Unofficial F1RS
site (that is, all of them <G>), I still get a 'threshhold'
accelerator effect whereby adding up to a certain % causes smooth
(albeit slow) acceleration, and then afterwards a wee bit more on the
throttle causes an accelerator spike and the revs max out. Its
absolutely maddening, particularly if you've still got a little wheel
lock exiting the corner. It treats me as if I'm breaking the car
loose, when all I'm REALLY doing is following what I learned in Skip
Barber and trying to smoothly apply throttle while releasing the car
after the apex. If you believe you can help me remedy this problem
and find that smoother rev curve I'll be happy to concede I'm wrong,
but until then you simply cannot convince me that this kind of
'digital-style' threshhold on the accelerator models real car physics!
Please. You must be running GP2 at 150% occupancy. F1RS feels like
it absolutely crawls. For all of CPR's faults, it sure does capture
the sense of speed well. I have to look down at the dash in F1RS to
see that I'm *really* doing 180 mph because things appear to be going
30-40 mph slower than that (and yes the frame rate is liquidy smooth
on my P300).
The AI is great most of the time. I still get whacked in the rear a
fair amount by AI cars in F1RS, and I'd say it looks mildly more
intelligent than the AI in Gp2, but not by much.
Since GP2 doesn't have rain, it would be unfair to rip it twice for
the same problem.
This is one doesn't even merit a substantive response its so out
there.
No, EVERYONE is still way behind Papy on this one. No one has done
replays as well. Not MS, not Papy, not Ubi, not MPS, NO ONE. F1RS
may be better than some of its peers, but its like, okay, we'll give
it a D while we give GP2 an F.
Weather again? Anyone else notice the single-mindedness of the
comparisons?
Which, I might add, is not technically supported in F1RS. You have to
use Kali to hack in IPX support.
Lets see, we've boiled your complaints mainly down to lack of rain and
YOUR assessment of the driving model, which I've disagreed with and
provided a great deal more backup than you have. Gee, is that ALL
there is to these two games? The physics model and the weather? I am
SOOOOO disappointed that you could be so mocking and venomous and yet
utterly fail to do a convincing job arguing substance.
So do I, and I think GP2 drives better. Sorry if you don't like it,
but tough.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Contributing Reviewer
Digital Sportspage
[link lost in import]
>Not at all. It is just that if you say something that is obvious rubbish,
>you will be called to task on it. Sorry.
"obvious rubbish"? Please. Grow up just a tad, will ya?
Randy
Randy Magruder
Contributing Reviewer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com
Quoted text (10 lines)
>Good, finally some substance, okay lets talk. >>In fact you just have to know something about >>F1 to know that the racing experience in F1RS far surpasses >>the racing experience in GP2. >Since I watch every F1 race and have played each F1 sim (yes, even >Power F1, God help me), I think I can say I know something about the >F1 experience. And the things that you mention are mostly >atmospheric, but lets get to it:I originally renamed this thread 'F1RS vs CPR'. I fixed it now. Sorry
for the repost. But I thought if I left it as CPR many people would pass :-)
I also wanted to add 2 more comments. One of the things I like most
about F1RS is the changing track conditions. Not necessarily the rain
either. During a session, you can actually see the shadows & sunlight
on the track changing from lap to lap. Very very cool. Also Randy, do
you have the box for 'Poll with interrupts enabled' unchecked?
Well I have watched every F1 race and played every F1 sim too (except
for power F1) .
Well some people seem to think it is that important.
I guess I don't know what to make of this since it doesn't happen to
me. It sounds like you are over driving it still. I can pretty much control
the car to do whatever I want. If I push too much trying to catch someone
then I notice I start pushing. I also notice that if I hit the gas too hard
on exit, the rears will break loose. Seems to be modeled pretty realistic
to me. In fact I notice that I have very fine control over the gas and
brake.
I have the gas pedal mashed down plenty and it does not cause the
accelerator to max out until the gear has reached it's maximum
speed. The lights do spike to red fairly quickly. But that is how it is
I believe. As soon as it hits amber shift.
Slow? Then lower your rear wing, crank up the power setting on the
engine or go to a lower gear setting on 6th. I just do not see this at
all. I may not be doing the best times, since I have not done setups
on more than silverstone but I certainly do not have the sense of
laboring around when I am driving. Within 10 minutes of trying
Canada in F1RS for the first time I got a 1:26 which is not fantastic
but it was with the stock setup. Blasting through the course was
an unbelievable experience. Great sense of speed.
Again when I smoothly apply throttle I am OK. When I apply more
throttle than I should I will break the wheels loose. I certainly do
not see this.
I don't see a digital type on/off throttle control at all. I would almost
suspect your control device or something. I will also admit that our
systems are sufficiently different where I can see a different controller
response than you. I had a friend over who has a T2, GP2 and Nascar2.
We both took a few laps in each game (a couple of months ago). I was
surprised at how he was mashing down the throttle and driving like
a dragracer. Naturally he did not even make the first turn at Monza
and was pretty embarrassed. So on my rig little throttle was needed
to do the job. Apparently he has to mash the gas to do the same
thing that 33% pedal movement does on my T2.
Nope GP2 was at around 100% or lower with my P5-200MMX.
Huh. I guess our definitions of sense of speed are different. I get
a liquidly smooth framerate and a great sense of speed. I don't
suppose you have broken down and gotten a 3dfx to try with F1RS ?
turns. This is exactly
I have not gotten whacked yet. In fact they will go into the gravel to
avoid a wreck.
I don't think it would be unfair at all. It was a huge omission.
OK.
Hopefully I have added more substance.
the driving/racing experience.
Right. Same for you and F1RS :-)
--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.
Quoted text (10 lines)
>Good, finally some substance, okay lets talk. >>In fact you just have to know something about >>F1 to know that the racing experience in F1RS far surpasses >>the racing experience in GP2. >Since I watch every F1 race and have played each F1 sim (yes, even >Power F1, God help me), I think I can say I know something about the >F1 experience. And the things that you mention are mostly >atmospheric, but lets get to it:On Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:58:41 -0600, "Greg Cisko"
>I wonder how many people with a P5-166 (or faster)/3dfx and F1RS will
>do more with GP2 other than compare it to F1RS. In other words it would
>be a complete waste of time for me to play GP2 anymore when I have
>F1RS. The variable weather and AI alone make the difference.
To what? GP2's AI was already very good, and F1RS' are way too easy by
comparison.
I played GP2 a hell of a lot more than I will play F1RS, although that
is down to available time more than anything else. GP2 at the time of
it's release was excellent, easily on a par with what F1RS has
achieved today, and to say that F1RS is "better" than GP2 is like
saying that A Ferrari F355 is better than a Ferrari Daytona. Of course
it is - now.
Cheers!
John
On Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:34:24 -0600, "Greg Cisko"
> The physics model in F1RS is far better than the model in GP2
IYHO of course. I personally find the driving in F1RS gives little
impression of the grip and power an F1 car has, whereas GP2 conveyed
this very well. F1RS feels like tip-toeing all the time.
Oops, bit of a contradiction there :-)
- GP2 had full lap replays
- F1RS' replays do not work at all well.
Or the eye-candy and replays, as it would seem from the above. GP2
falls down to F1RS with the added extras, 3dFX support, rain etc, but
then so does ICR2. When you look at the driving experience of each of
them then F1RS is no more a step forward from GP2 than it is from
ICR2. All are pretty much equivalent.
Cheers!
John
Quoted text (24 lines)
> On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 18:24:31 -0600, "Greg Cisko" > > So when > >you say something stupid like GP2 being better than F1RS I guess I will > >call you on it. > >After I stop laughing... > Give up, you're making yourself look a right prat. In many ways, GP2 is > better than F1RS. In roughly the same number of ways, F1RS is better. As > with most sims, direct comparisons are meaningless. Just because you have > an *opinion* doesn't make you right. > And when it comes to the opinions that people look out for because they > know they are worth trusting, I don't recall your name being especially > high on the list.... > You're entitled to your opinion, just as Randy is, but if you try > insisting that your opinion is the only one that matters you are digging > a *very* deep hole for yourself. > Cheers, > RichardJust one question. Do you have a P5-166 (or better) with a 3dfx card?
--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.
>On Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:34:24 -0600, "Greg Cisko"
>> The physics model in F1RS is far better than the model in GP2
>IYHO of course. I personally find the driving in F1RS gives little
>impression of the grip and power an F1 car has, whereas GP2 conveyed
>this very well. F1RS feels like tip-toeing all the time.
>>OK another one. When driving in the rain (oh nuts GP2 did not
>>have rain) the physics of the car and handling is totally realistic.
>>Have I driven an F1 car? No of course not.
>Oops, bit of a contradiction there :-)
>>IMHO GP2 was just a 640x480 version of World Circuit without rain.
>>It still had the lame 20 second replays (Papy knows how to do replays
>>and F1RS is not far behind), no rain (when World Circuit had pretty
>>good rain), a complete and absolute rip off/excuse for modem/modem
>>play and no other software support from the MFR.
>- GP2 had full lap replays
>- F1RS' replays do not work at all well.
>>And you actually have the gall to claim that GP2 is better than F1RS?
>>HAHAHAHA. Sure the menu in GP2 was better, but so what? I guess
>>I care more about the driving/racing experience.
>Or the eye-candy and replays, as it would seem from the above. GP2
>falls down to F1RS with the added extras, 3dFX support, rain etc, but
>then so does ICR2. When you look at the driving experience of each of
>them then F1RS is no more a step forward from GP2 than it is from
>ICR2. All are pretty much equivalent.
>Cheers!
>John
(snip)
F1RS feels like tip-toeing all the time.
(unsnip)
Do you *really* believe that it is possible to drive an F1 car at
ten-tenths and *not* be tip-toeing? Or are you driving in F1RS with all
the aids enabled? This sim gives a far better impression of the
nervousness of a F1 vehicle than GP2 does.
(snip)
GP2 had full lap replays
(unsnip)
Big deal!! One lap! And even that doesn't include the start and first
lap.
(snip)
Or the eye-candy
(unsnip)
So what you are saying is that the quality of the graphics is of little
importance to you when it comes to your overall enjoyment of a
simulation? Hmmmm.........still running an EGA card with 16 colours,
are we?!
And the menu system in GP2 sucks just as strongly as that in F1RS. The
sequence in which one has to labour away in order simply to change a
setting is as silly as that in the French product. Papyrus have the
best menu system of the lot in NASCAR2 and these other companies should
have learned something from them.
--
Bruce
(at work)
"Laziness is nothing more than the habit of resting before you get
tired."
(Jules Renard)
(snip)
GP2 at the time of
it's release was excellent, easily on a par with what F1RS has
achieved today, and to say that F1RS is "better" than GP2 is like
saying that A Ferrari F355 is better than a Ferrari Daytona. Of course
it is - now.
(unsnip)
Uhhhh, John.....this is called *progress*!!
Of course something can only be better *now*!! Then something else will
come along and exceed it....if not in all areas then at least in some.
This is exactly what F1RS has accomplished: in some areas there is no
significant improvement (***y menus to start with) and in others it
rocks (weather effects and graphcis under 3Dfx).
You can't halt progress......when there *is* progress. This is what
software/hardware is all about. GP2 was King*** for 3 years in the F1
sim arena and has now had its crown taken. Something else (not CART
PR!) will come along and take the crown off F1RS. here's hoping that
it's GP3!!
--
Bruce
(at work)
"Laziness is nothing more than the habit of resting before you get
tired."
(Jules Renard)
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:57:06 +1100, Bruce Kennewell
>Uhhhh, John.....this is called *progress*!!
<sigh> Yes, I _know_ that.
Does the progress in training, fitness and expectation make Senna a
better driver than Fangio was? Of course it does, but does the
counter-argument then follow that Fangio was therefore crap? It would
seem to be the case, according to the logicists around here.
I have no problem with people saying F1RS is a great game, but for
that train of thought to be taken a step further and conclude "Hey,
that means GP2 is tripe" is plain wrong.
Cheers!
John
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:51:09 +1100, Bruce Kennewell
>Do you *really* believe that it is possible to drive an F1 car at
>ten-tenths and *not* be tip-toeing? Or are you driving in F1RS with all
>the aids enabled? This sim gives a far better impression of the
>nervousness of a F1 vehicle than GP2 does.
GP2 conveys far better the impression of grip that you would expect
from a Formula One car. F1RS doesn't have that at all. In GP2 grip is
retained or lost in the margins of control at the edge of your and the
cars limits, but in F1RS this band seems much broader.
Come on Bruce, cheap shot - you know what I mean. Would it surprise
you to know that I prefer driving SODA to driving CPR? Eye-candy is
pretty much essential to any sim these days, but it still doesn't beat
a good physics model. That IMO is why so many people work with CPR,
because it looks like the sort of game you want to enjoy. SODA doesn't
fall into that category, but F1RS sure does - it just happens to be
quite good to drive in addition.
Cheers!
John
> GP2 conveys far better the impression of grip that you would expect
> from a Formula One car. F1RS doesn't have that at all. In GP2 grip is
> retained or lost in the margins of control at the edge of your and the
> cars limits, but in F1RS this band seems much broader.
Disagreed. I see no difference in this dept. I think many of the
ripple strips in GP2 were ridiculously unforgiving and once the rear got
out it seemed often that it was impossible to correct (or maybe I'm just
not as quick in the reflexs as I like to kid myself <G>). Also, I can
never remember, in GP2, getting the rear a little out of shape coming
out of a corner and then fish taling 4 or 5 times from one side of the
track to the other at Monza the other night on F1RS. This was mind
boggling. Maybe your setups are a little to conservative at the moment
and you will appreciate the dynamics of F1RS later on. I have not gotten
a buzz out of a computer game like this in a fair while now. Replays and
maybe menu system aside, F1RS is clearly the King of the castle :)
>GP2 conveys far better the impression of grip that you would expect
>from a Formula One car. F1RS doesn't have that at all. In GP2 grip is
>retained or lost in the margins of control at the edge of your and the
>cars limits, but in F1RS this band seems much broader.
I am sorry but I disagree. I was always pissed when I would watch a
real race and see the real cars fish-tailing out of corners. The only
game I had last year for F1 was GP2 and I don't remember doing this.
If you get out of shape a small amount you went around. In F1RS
you can fish-tail back & forth before you get your grip back. How
long was it in GP2 before you would get your grip back after going
off course? It is quite some distance/time in F1RS. This is another
subtle thing in F1RS that I don't remember in GP2. Hey if you really
want a narrow band, try a rain race once.
So F1RS *IS* quite good. Huh, judging from your first paragraph
I would almost think your thought it was crap. My apologies...
--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.
Quoted text (8 lines)
> Though the Cisko Kid is a little over enthusiastic, I must agree >with him that F1RS is better than anything on planet earth when it comes >to car sims. To those who disagree I say this. Get it configured >properly, get a good setup at your favourite track and PEAK. I just did >this at Monza (1.23.9 so far) and I am totally blown away. When you >start to get fairly good at a track and get the car performing near its >peak potential you will know what I mean. This sim is the best thing >since King size beds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:57:06 +1100, Bruce Kennewell
>GP2 was King*** for 3 years in the F1
>sim arena and has now had its crown taken.
Can someone out there *please* learn how to use a calendar <g> If GP2 is
to be the top F1 sim for 3 years then it has still got another 18 months
to go! Even GP3 might be out by then ;-)
I think I'm going to have to start posting a sim timeline FAQ.... <g>
Cheers,
Richard
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:51:09 +1100, Bruce Kennewell
>Do you *really* believe that it is possible to drive an F1 car at
>ten-tenths and *not* be tip-toeing? Or are you driving in F1RS with all
>the aids enabled? This sim gives a far better impression of the
>nervousness of a F1 vehicle than GP2 does.
In some ways yes. But what about Eau Rouge? A real challenge in GP2 but
in F1RS it is left, right, left and er, that's it. And yes, that is
obviously with all aids off.
I'm in two minds over F1RS's driving model. At Monaco it is a real blast,
and in general is great fun at slow corners - a real challenge. But it
definitely seems to over do aerodynamic grip at the expense of mechanical
grip. All the high speed corners in F1RS are too easy and no challenge at
all and just leave me cold :(
Overall, F1RS is - for my style of driving at least - much less of a
challenge than GP2.
No, they're not great, but still more use than F1RS which seems very
inconsistent in what it records, doesn't tell you which car you're
viewing (unless I've missed something obvious), has no sound, etc.
A Papy style replay - but *with* a driver's eye view - would be the best
option.
GP2 is certainly a lot better than F1RS in this area. At least it
remembers what your last choices were! There's no significant delay
getting from garage to track either.
N2 may have the best menu, but it too is far from perfect. If I nip into
the garage to alter the car's setup whilst practicing then the whole
practice session starts again. Why don't the AI keep going? If I want to
test my setup in traffic then it can take several laps for the AI to get
out of the pits and up to speed :(
Cheers,
Richard
> Also, I can
>never remember, in GP2, getting the rear a little out of shape coming
>out of a corner and then fish taling 4 or 5 times from one side of the
>track to the other at Monza the other night on F1RS. This was mind
>boggling.
Mind boggling it may be, but it sure ain't anything to do with F1 :(
Cheers,
Richard
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 07:09:24 -0600, "Greg Cisko"
>I am sorry but I disagree. I was always pissed when I would watch a
>real race and see the real cars fish-tailing out of corners. The only
>game I had last year for F1 was GP2 and I don't remember doing this.
>If you get out of shape a small amount you went around. In F1RS
>you can fish-tail back & forth before you get your grip back.
But modern F1 cars *cannot* fishtail wildly! They rely totally on
aerodynamic grip which gets all shot to hell once the car starts going
sideways. Fishtailing is a function of mechanical grip.
*Watch* those F1 cars when they get out of shape. Now ask someone who
isn't used to F1 and they will probably say "I never saw it get out of
shape". F1 cars simple do *not* fishtail all over the place unless the
driver is deliberately trying to do so at relatively slow speeds.
GP2 perfectly simulated the way that a F1 car can be caught if you
anticipate the car's actions but loses all grip once it actually starts
spinning.
In this respect, F1RS is like GP2 with OL on - too easy and not realistic
:(
An important first for F1RS. But not something to beat GP2 over the head
with!
Cheers,
Richard
>I'm in two minds over F1RS's driving model. At Monaco it is a real blast,
>and in general is great fun at slow corners - a real challenge. But it
>definitely seems to over do aerodynamic grip at the expense of mechanical
>grip. All the high speed corners in F1RS are too easy and no challenge at
>all and just leave me cold :(
I think you have F1RS and GP2 confused. But whatever.
So this means that you are getting pole positions and blowing
away the field, and winning championships after championships?
Against the EXPERT level?
--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.
>Hmm, so by implication drivers like John, Randy & myself are obviously
>just incompetent then? <g>
You said it not me :-)
Congrats to you all.
I think it also varies with the weather. You are playing with variable
weather, right? It is little things like this that make F1RS the only choice
at the moment.
Hmm...
I get the opposite impression. I guess not being a real race driver, all
of this is beyond me. BTW, what do you think Jean Alesi, H. Harold
Frentzen and Jean Christophe Buillon and those Renault engineers
were doing with the game? I'm affraid to say that if all those fellas
think F1RS is right, and it seems right to me personally when I play
the game, I don't care what you 3 hero's think :-)
To you GP2 drives more realisticly. And I think it is great.
It must be very painful to drive around and obsess about the poor
driving model. Every time you go into a turn it is in the back of your
mmind how it isn't right. I tried driving around the Montreal circuit
and see why Randy did not get a sense of speed in F1RS. I thought
maybe I was seeing it wrong. I finially figured he wasn't seeing the
same thing on his screen that I was seeing on mine. I guess we will
have to agree to disagree.
--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.
>But modern F1 cars *cannot* fishtail wildly! They rely totally on
>aerodynamic grip which gets all shot to hell once the car starts going
>sideways. Fishtailing is a function of mechanical grip.
Um. I am talking about fish tailing while accelerating out of slow
corners. I've seen the real F1 cars do it like everyone else has.
So don't come around here saying that they cannot do something
we have all seen.
Now you have it! Gotta hand it to you that driving experience is
really helping you out here.
I see. In general I find that F1RS and GP2 both simulate swaping ends
about the same. I have swapped ends in F1RS with no hope of recovery.
I have also lost traction while accelerating fish tailed, got off the gas
and recovered as I would expect it really happens. In GP2 you will
sawp ends more times than not, but I have saved some.
I agree. I think the changing weather conditions and shadows (which change
during a race/session) is more appropriate to use for that.
--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.
>Hmm, so by implication drivers like John, Randy & myself are obviously
>just incompetent then? <g>
Don't you just hate being incompetent? I know I sure do <G>
No mean feat. I actually clocked a few F1SA competitive times against
Aida with GP2 no aids. But boy was it work!! The problem was I could
do it in hotlapping, but in a race, trying to actually get through
traffic, the opposite lock help ON was necessary for me to stay
competitive through a long race.
With F1RS, I agree 100% on the mechanical grip. I'd say 90% of my
gripes with the driving model are what happens in slow corners and
hairpins. I just don't feel like I'm driving a high-performance car
around them.
Glad I'm not the only one to notice that.
I may have to buy a Monster 3D to see if it really is the elixer for
F1RS that people claim it is. Its hard for me to imagine, since I'm
running a P300 with a Riva board and the frame rate is pretty much
fluid with everything turned on, but I'm wondering if Ubi might have
'crippled' the D3D version by not allowing the tire details to be on
etc (at least judging from what Alison has told me). But my
observations about the physics model in F1RS closely mimic those of
yours and John's. I like it. I don't love it. Not yet.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Contributing Reviewer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com
Quoted text (10 lines)
>>>Overall, F1RS is - for my style of driving at least - much less of a >>>challenge than GP2. >Greg retorts: >>So this means that you are getting pole positions and blowing >>away the field, and winning championships after championships? >>Against the EXPERT level? >Can we possibly arrange a race between the two of you? My money is on >Richard...and I'll give odds.Well....it's all subjective, isn't it and, after all, merely a game :-)
--
Bruce.
(At home)
I don't think that these people are implying that "GP2 is tripe", simply
that "The King is dead, long live the King"!
GP2 was the epitome of F1 simulations.....*was*. The role has now, in a
lot of opinions, been usurped by F1RS. Perhaps within another 12-24
months there will be another to come along and take the crown. Let's
hope so otherwise the technology will have stagnated.
I doted on GP1....it had a permanent home on my computer(s). Then GP2
came along and knocked it off the pedestal, but I (and oodles of others)
didn't deride GP1. It had simply been overtaken by a "better" product.
That's the way things are and will forever be.
--
Bruce.
(At home)
>>Overall, F1RS is - for my style of driving at least - much less of a
>>challenge than GP2.
Greg retorts:
Can we possibly arrange a race between the two of you? My money is on
Richard...and I'll give odds.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Contributing Reviewer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com
>>Hmm, so by implication drivers like John, Randy & myself are obviously
>>just incompetent then? <g>
>You said it not me :-)
No, you said it, just in an underhanded manner. Richard just wanted
to get you on the record as calling both he and Richard (and myself
for that matter) incompetent drivers. You can wiggle on the hook if
you like, but that's what you've implied pretty clearly. There are a
lot of sim racers that know these guys from fierce F1SA hotlap charts
who are laughing at YOUR ignorance if you want to cut these two guys
down.
--
F1RS, the ONLY choice??? Gee, you really are a devoted little puppy
aren't you. Only ONE 3D board, only ONE racing sim. I guess there's
"the one" and then there's crap, right?
Is *this* the best you could come up with? Well, Greg. Lets see.
Jacques Villeneuve used GP2 to prepare for his first trip to Spa and
won pole, whereas he could only qualify 18th in the game. Jordan
drivers actually were using the Psygnosis model of Jerez to prepare
their drivers for it, and spent a great deal of time helping Psygnosis
tweak THEIR driving model, and that's for the Playstation. Then you
have guys like Mark Blundell and Mauricio Gugelmin (who won CART races
last year) testifying for the CPR physics model, oh and a bunch of
guys from the Indy Racing League provided a great deal of feedback on
the IRL sim. We obviously all have different opinions about those
games REGARDLESS of what big names spent time critiquing them, so why
should F1RS be any different? Oh yes. I forgot. It's "THE ONE".
Well, if you're that easy, then there's a lot of other games out there
that you should look into, because almost every one has had driver
input into the driving model.
Wow. Leaving room for two opinions? This is a big step forward for
you, Greg!
Try it in GP2 and ensure that your occupancy is <=100% in the process
and tell me you don't think GP2 feels faster.
There's a first for everything.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Contributing Reviewer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com
...
Hi Randy,
Hi kinda hope someone does. Because I am running pretty much the same
set-up computer wise and have the same gripes. I also have wondered if its
just because Ubi patched to D3D and if I am actually playing the same sim I
hear all the raves about. I myself am going to wait for V2 but if anyone
running Riva gets a chance to borrow or buy a VooDoo before then please let
us know. Aloha, Mike
Quoted text (8 lines)
> I may have to buy a Monster 3D to see if it really is the elixer for > F1RS that people claim it is. Its hard for me to imagine, since I'm > running a P300 with a Riva board and the frame rate is pretty much > fluid with everything turned on, but I'm wondering if Ubi might have > 'crippled' the D3D version by not allowing the tire details to be on > etc (at least judging from what Alison has told me). But my > observations about the physics model in F1RS closely mimic those of > yours and John's. I like it. I don't love it. Not yet.From the time that the very first .AVI of the pre-release beta was
shown, to the time that the product was withdrawn from official
production, three years has elapsed.
Now, if you want to add to that the time to the start of the ***y
media hype that heralded the fact that Crammond was well into the
programming, and add the almost 12-months that was added to its original
release date, before Bill Steely was bought out by Spectrum Holobyte and
everything went off the rails, the time period is closer to 5 years.
So if you want to get picky, grin or not, I can get equally as pedantic!
--
Bruce
(at work)
"Laziness is nothing more than the habit of resting before you get
tired."
(Jules Renard)
Eau Rouge, in F1RS, in a car that is set up properly, is very tricky.
If you can take Eau Rouge without lifting off and the car does not start
to feel twitchy, then you do not have the car set up to the optimum.
In the rain it is even more nervous.
Replays are simply un-necessary accessories........they serve no useful
purpose so whether they are good/bad/included/not included is immaterial
to me. What *is* useful is to spend a couple of laps in the***pit of
an AI car.....check out the speeds, gears and times and learn from it.
Now that facility *is* worth the HDD space.
Haven't you figured out the menu system and the save facility yet?
Whilst not user friendly it is certainly one of the more comprehensive
'save' systems. I have more configurations/setups combinations than you
could poke a stick at. I also have no problems in re-entering a saved
game. You won't learn much about it via the manual, only through
experimentation.
--
Bruce
(at work)
"Laziness is nothing more than the habit of resting before you get
tired."
(Jules Renard)
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:51:15 -0600, "Greg Cisko"
>Um. I am talking about fish tailing while accelerating out of slow
>corners. I've seen the real F1 cars do it like everyone else has.
>So don't come around here saying that they cannot do something
>we have all seen.
Go on then. Give a concrete example from the last couple of seasons.
<yawn>
The top GP2 drivers could catch slides OK. I don't see why making it
easier to drive a F1 car should be considered more realistic.
Cheers,
Richard
On Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:52:51 +1100, Bruce Kennewell
>From the time that the very first .AVI of the pre-release beta was
>shown, to the time that the product was withdrawn from official
>production, three years has elapsed.
So when was the first AVI released? Not until very late 95 / early 96.
You're still out by years.
No, you are just inventing facts to overcome a goof!
Cheers,
Richard
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:27:21 -0600, "Greg Cisko"
>So this means that you are getting pole positions and blowing
>away the field, and winning championships after championships?
>Against the EXPERT level?
Since you ask, I've been practicing for an off-line league race at
Silverstone. I am over half a second a lap faster than the AI - driving a
Forti....
I don't bother with championships. I don't have the motivation to run a
whole series against AI.
Cheers,
Richard
On Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:01:23 +1100, Bruce Kennewell
>Eau Rouge, in F1RS, in a car that is set up properly, is very tricky.
>If you can take Eau Rouge without lifting off and the car does not start
>to feel twitchy, then you do not have the car set up to the optimum.
I could just as easily retort that you haven't worked out how to set up a
stable car. If my car is stable and I'm lapping in the 1:48 - 1:49 range
then why should I deliberately make it drive worse?
Agreed. But you saw fit to comment on replays in a totally negative
manner, so don't blame me for responding ;-)
<sigh>
Please don't always assume you're talking to an imbecile. I'm not saying
that it's not a correct assumption, but are you sure you have enough
facts to base it on? <g>
Of course I know how to use the menu & save / load things. But please
tell me how to get it to remember my previous setup at a circuit.
Cheers,
Richard
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:43:13 -0600, "Greg Cisko"
>I think it also varies with the weather. You are playing with variable
>weather, right? It is little things like this that make F1RS the only choice
>at the moment.
Unfortunately, it also makes it a problem for off-line leagues :(
I'm all in favour of variable weather, etc. But it would be nice if F1RS
actually told you what the temperature and wind is and, just as
importantly, allows you to set them yourself!
It doesn't have to be that way. Apply a little intelligence & common
sense and who knows what might happen ;-)
Getting paid of course!
Or do you also believe the real drivers comments about CPR?
Hint: It's called 'product endor***t'
Yeah, sure. It may come as a shock to you but some people can enjoy more
than one sim for the good parts of those sims. If F1RS wasn't a top sim I
wouldn't drive it. But I don't write off other sims just because they are
not the 'latest thing'.
Tell Randy that, not me. Overall F1RS gives me a very good impression of
speed, at least as good as GP2.
Cheers,
Richard
>Don't you just hate being incompetent? I know I sure do <G>
You learn to live with it after a while though <g>
I'm still a hotlapper at heart but I've rather changed my driving style
over the last 6 months or so and concentrate more on driving a 'get to
the end of the race' approach. Around the time you were in F1SA I
couldn't finish a complete race without several spins, broken wings, etc
<g> Last season though I managed a complete WW race without a single
incident.
Actually, it's the slow corners that I like in F1RS and the fast ones
that don't seem to have captured the sensation of driving a F1 car at
it's limits.
Monaco in the rain feels just like it looked in last year's GP. No other
sim has come close to that experience.
Maybe it just reflects different driving styles.
I've got a PII 300 with Righteous 3D and I've never tried the D3D version
so I can't comment. It does appear though that the D3D version was
something of an afterthought by Ubisoft.
It's nearly there. It has introduced some important firsts but in
striving to add new things I think some care has been diverted away from
core sim essentials.
It should tide me over until GPL gets released though <g>
Cheers,
Richard
Quoted text (9 lines)
>On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:51:15 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >>Um. I am talking about fish tailing while accelerating out of slow >>corners. I've seen the real F1 cars do it like everyone else has. >>So don't come around here saying that they cannot do something >>we have all seen. >Go on then. Give a concrete example from the last couple of seasons.Quoted text (10 lines)
> > Also, I can > >never remember, in GP2, getting the rear a little out of shape coming > >out of a corner and then fish taling 4 or 5 times from one side of the > >track to the other at Monza the other night on F1RS. This was mind > >boggling. > Mind boggling it may be, but it sure ain't anything to do with F1 :( > Cheers, > Richard1) No car is *stable* if you are driving at ten-tenths. Ask any current
and previous F1 driver what it's like to try and take Eau Rouge flat out
in a car that is primarily set up for the rest of the circuit.
2) Replays *are* totally negative, irrespective of which simulation
they may be in. Some sims, however, present them in a better manner than
others. Papyrus have the best replay format of them all. However, I
still consider them un-necessary baggage.
3) If the cap fits, wear it. If you do not know how to save and load a
particular setup/configuration then ask Ubi Soft. Perhaps they can
explain it to you.
--
Bruce
(at work)
"Laziness is nothing more than the habit of resting before you get
tired."
(Jules Renard)
>1) No car is *stable* if you are driving at ten-tenths. Ask any current
>and previous F1 driver what it's like to try and take Eau Rouge flat out
>in a car that is primarily set up for the rest of the circuit.
Easy enough. Jacques Villeneuve did a good job describing it in his
book: Formula One, My Rookie Season. He basically said that it was
not hard, that it was very exciting because you are driving almost
straight up and you cant see anything, but that its one of those
curves where the faster you go, the more stable the car is. So you
fight your instinct to lift off and stay flat out on it and the
downforce helps you get through it alright. I thoroughly enjoyed his
book, and this description was memorable.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Contributing Reviewer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com
> But modern F1 cars *cannot* fishtail wildly! They rely totally on
> aerodynamic grip which gets all shot to hell once the car starts going
> sideways. Fishtailing is a function of mechanical grip.
The type of fish tailing refered to is not a 90deg sideways thing.
We're talking 20deg off pointing straight ahead max.
Fish tailing is something that requires staying on the throttle once
out of shape. How many F1 drivers are willing and able to do this.
That's why you don't see it much but you DO see it.
>> But modern F1 cars *cannot* fishtail wildly! They rely totally on
>> aerodynamic grip which gets all shot to hell once the car starts going
>> sideways. Fishtailing is a function of mechanical grip.
> The type of fish tailing refered to is not a 90deg sideways thing.
>We're talking 20deg off pointing straight ahead max.
Hey, don't tell him. He is a real race car driver (or something).
:-)
--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.
That may be the case. It is certainly possible to catch spins in GP2,
just ***y difficult.
Okay - you're running at Monza just now. My laps at monza are in the
1:22s range - how conservative is that....? :-)
Overall I'd say you're right, it absolutely creams GP2 in the graphics
and frame-ratedept. I score it far more closely than you in terms of
driving though, with GP2 a bit ahead on the overall experience. GP2
also wins out in areas like sound and setup. Overall F1RS is better I
think, but purely from a driving viewpoint I still prefer GP2.
Cheers!
John
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:43:13 -0600, "Greg Cisko"
>I get the opposite impression. I guess not being a real race driver, all
>of this is beyond me. BTW, what do you think Jean Alesi, H. Harold
>Frentzen and Jean Christophe Buillon and those Renault engineers
>were doing with the game? I'm affraid to say that if all those fellas
>think F1RS is right, and it seems right to me personally when I play
>the game, I don't care what you 3 hero's think :-)
Weak Greg, _very_ weak. I guess CPR is as good as F1RS in that case?
Hey, Mark Blundell said so didn't he, and I'm sure you'd believe him
above the evidence of even your own eyes.
Looks like it. You want us to say it's fantastic and as good as you
think it is. Richard and I both think it's very good, but the things
we are expecting and looking for are not there. As long as we are
looking for different things from the product I don't see how our
opinions could converge.
Cheers!
John
Quoted text (7 lines)
>LOL!! >Byron, *OF COURSE* it's "opinionated"!! >Every "I like/don't like" post here *is* opinionated!! :-) >I couldn't think of anything more boring than watching a 1.5 hour replay >of a computer game/sim. Good Lord.....you do that to 'wind >down'????!!!!Quoted text (13 lines)
>On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:43:13 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >>I get the opposite impression. I guess not being a real race driver, all >>of this is beyond me. BTW, what do you think Jean Alesi, H. Harold >>Frentzen and Jean Christophe Buillon and those Renault engineers >>were doing with the game? I'm affraid to say that if all those fellas >>think F1RS is right, and it seems right to me personally when I play >>the game, I don't care what you 3 hero's think :-) >Weak Greg, _very_ weak. I guess CPR is as good as F1RS in that case? >Hey, Mark Blundell said so didn't he, and I'm sure you'd believe him >above the evidence of even your own eyes.I must say that I don't recall ever seeing this in F1, and in more
than 10 years there's only once race I didn't watch right through
(Imola '94). I've seen cars have lurid slides (Berger in Monaco last
year, Alesi at Hockenheim two years ago, Schumacher in Argentina, that
sort of thing), but I've never seen "fishtailing" as you would see it
on a Saturday night with guys drag-racing their cars. That in itself
proves nothing though, as the drivers wouldn't do it regardless of
whether the cars could - if your wheels are spinning you are not
getting the best traction.
Not necessarily, lifting off while countersteering will cause the same
loss of grip at the rear. I made the mistake of doing this this in a
BMW 328i convertible that I was test driving and nearly gave myself a
heart attack :) I didn't really want to buy it, and taking it back
sadly bent would have been tough to explain :)
Cheers!
John
I agree. This is especially true with an on-line race (NROS) where you
can relive those hair-raising moments, the sad times, the victories :)
Cheers!
John
Hi Rik,
over on f1racingsim, a guy who has apparently driven a real Simtek a few
years ago says that he feels F1RS is doing a pretty good job - more
realistic WRT driving physics than GP2.
I must admit that while I think that GP2 two _feels_ more realistic, I also
think that the driving model of F1RS is more detailed, more like Papy's
ICR2. F1RS nicely modely the front axle stuff. Maybe the car is wobbling too
much (like ICR2). I also _feel_ more realistic in GP2, but my brain tells me
that the F1RS driving model is more detailed - and hence probably also more
realistic.
As for Randy, saying that he's a Papy beta tester hints at some slight bias
he might be having. I remember his comments on GP2 when that came out (I had
some long discussions with him :-) and he didn't seem to like it at all.
Although today we all merrily agree that GP2 was _the_ big thriller of it's
time...
Achim
Quoted text (11 lines)
> On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:27:21 -0600, "Greg Cisko" > >So this means that you are getting pole positions and blowing > >away the field, and winning championships after championships? > >Against the EXPERT level? > Since you ask, I've been practicing for an off-line league race at > Silverstone. I am over half a second a lap faster than the AI - driving a > Forti....> Replays are simply un-necessary accessories........they serve no useful
> purpose so whether they are good/bad/included/not included is immaterial
> to me. What *is* useful is to spend a couple of laps in the***pit of
> an AI car.....check out the speeds, gears and times and learn from it.
> Now that facility *is* worth the HDD space.
This is very opinionated. I have been running in many offline comps
using ICR2 over the last 6 months (including the Enduros) and there is
nothing better than winding down after a great run by watching your own
brilliance on replay (Caution - very untrue of a bad run <G>). With my
64 megs ram I have saved a good enduro run that lasted over 1 1/2 hours
from Elkart lake - and watched it a couple of times with great joy. I am
very disappointed that few other sims can match Papy in this dept
:(((((((
> I haven't spent much time at Monza with F1RS and certainly haven't peaked
> but I have a 1:23.0. Heck, I didn't even think that time was good enough
> to be worth submitting to the F1SA hotlap charts... ;-)
Well, for the record I'm at 1.22.6 now <G> with a ton of room for
improvement :)
I think I agree with a lot of this. As far as GP2 goes it was way to
harsh with ripple strips and the back end coming out so suddenly seemed
a little over exaggerated. Perhaps being accustomed to GP2 being this
way makes F1RS feel easy in comparison. And in F1RS's favour it can fish
tail and seems right over the ripple strips. As far as AI goes - I'm not
that far into it yet and have a heavy ICR2 schedule :)
> >I tried driving around the Montreal circuit
> >and see why Randy did not get a sense of speed in F1RS. I thought
> >maybe I was seeing it wrong.
> Try it in GP2 and ensure that your occupancy is <=100% in the process
> and tell me you don't think GP2 feels faster.
Funnily enough Canada is the track I did by far the most laps at
with GP2 and was the first track I tried with F1RS. It does seem slower
but I think it may be a fps issue as well. Also, the track is obviously
different from sim to sim. It's as though they are 2 different tracks
altogether - no corners feel the same from GP2 to F1RS at all.
LOL!!
Byron, *OF COURSE* it's "opinionated"!!
Every "I like/don't like" post here *is* opinionated!! :-)
I couldn't think of anything more boring than watching a 1.5 hour replay
of a computer game/sim. Good Lord.....you do that to 'wind
down'????!!!!
--
Bruce.
(At home)
> How the ***y hell would you know?
Sorry, your later comment about '20 degrees' clarifies things. It was the
statement 'fish tailing 4 or 5 times from one side of the track to the
other' that didn't seem to have any bearing on F1 ;-)
Cheers,
Richard
> The type of fish tailing refered to is not a 90deg sideways thing.
>We're talking 20deg off pointing straight ahead max.
OK, that clarifies things. I agree, that is realistic. But it's also
about the level that is achievable with GP2, so why is it an issue?
Maybe part of the problem is terminology. To me 'fish tailing' is what
you see in car chases at the movies <g> An F1 car never gets that far out
of shape without spinning due to the loss of aerodynamic downforce. It's
when people start claiming that it is realistic to catch ridiculous
errors that I get annoyed. If people want 'fun' driving models (e.g. GP2
with OL) then that's fine, but they're kidding themselves if they
consider it realistic.
Cheers,
Richard
> Offline league? Where please?
F1SA in the Sports Simulations forum (GO SPRTSIMS) on Compuserve. The
first trial race will be starting shortly. The full season will coincide
with the FIA calendar (as much as possible at least).
Cheers,
Richard
On Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:20:26 +1100, Bruce Kennewell
>1) No car is *stable* if you are driving at ten-tenths.
'ten-tenths' is a much abused and misleading term. How many times have
you heard a driver say that he was 'giving it 110%' or equivalent? If he
could do that and stay on the track then by definition, 'ten-tenths' is
driving within himself.
But to most sim drivers, 'ten-tenths' means that he expects to make
several serious mistakes during the course of a race.
But I *do* have a car that is setup to lap Spa at good speeds. If it is
too stable through Eau Rouge then why is the setup at fault? Isn't there
just the slightest chance that the driving model may be less than
perfect?
Seriously, have you found a way to get F1RS to automatically remember
your setup from one session to the other without having to remember to
save it and then load it (yes, I do know how to do it that way <g>)?
Every other sim has this ability and unless I'm being really dense I
haven't found it in F1RS and it would appear that many others haven't
either. I am sure that we would all be very grateful for your input.
Cheers,
Richard
> Well, for the record I'm at 1.22.6 now <G> with a ton of room for
>improvement :)
OK then, 1:22.4 <g> A mid 1:21 should be possible but it will require a
near perfect lap unless I discover some fairly significant way to improve
my setup / driving style.
Careful <g>
To be honest, I always thought GP2 was too harshly judged by many in
these two areas.
FIA safety regulations have considerably changed the height and nature of
kerbs since the 94 season. For instance, the GP2 kerbs at the chicanes in
Imola are roughly the same height as they used to be. A contributing
factor to people's expectations is that GP2's driving model is too
forgiving in slower corners (yes, it is not perfect <g>) which means that
it is possible to take chicanes at unrealistically high speeds without
making use of the kerbs. Trying to use the kerbs at those speeds then
becomes impossible. But slow down to real 1994 speeds and the kerbs can
be used. Probably not enough, but the situation isn't as bad as some make
out.
As for the back end, it *is* possible to drive at decent speeds in race
trim and make it through a whole race without spinning. But GP2's
feedback is very different to that from ICR2 or F1RS. It's all about
learning to anticipate rather than react. A high frame rate is also
essential though, which isn't exactly GP2's strong point <g>
Driving F1RS does demonstrate areas where GP2's model is far from
perfect. For instance it does 'stick' though the corners too much.
Strange really, but ICR2 never made me feel that GP2 got it wrong, but
F1RS - which I would classify being somewhere between GP2 & ICR2 in terms
of 'feel' - does make me think so. Maybe ICR2 & GP2 are too near the ends
of the driving model spectrum?
Cheers,
Richard
Richard....
The term "ten-tenths" was used back when I was involved actively in
m/racing and was simply a way of saying that you gave it your all. If
it has been bastardised since then, so be it, but I was using the
expression as I recall it being used.
See, with Spa, Eau Rouge is not representative of the greater percentage
of corners on the circuit. It is, in fact, the "oddball". Back in the
days before aerodynamics came into play a car would be set up for the
other 99% of the circuit....suspension settings being about the only
things that could be played with (apart from gearbox ratios). Eau Rouge
would be taken with a great deal of trepidation due to the rapid change
in direction and subsequently the wild changes in the direction of
forces acting on car and driver.
Therefore, for a driver to take that section of the circuit at anything
approaching "ten-tenths" (as per original meaning) meant that he really
was demonstrating enormous bravado.
With regard to your comment that you have a car that is too stable
through Eau Rouge, therefore the driving model may be less than perfect,
does it really matter?
This *is* a computer game that we are talking about, after all, that is
available to the public for less than $100. It is not a multi-million
dollar simulator.
And be honest.......what are the chances of *you* driving a current F1
car around Spa at racing speeds?! Zero? If so, then the fact that the
modelling of the dynamics in this or any other such simulation may be
less than 100% accurate is a moot point. You are never going to know
the difference anyway.
No...I haven't found a way to have F1RS automatically setup the
settings......which is why I already have a rather extensive library of
Configuration, Race Mode and Car settings. But this fact doesn't irk me
to the extent that I would bother complaining about it: that's the way
they've presented the menu system so I live with it. It is French,
after all!
--
Bruce.
(At home)
>> The type of fish tailing refered to is not a 90deg sideways thing.
>>We're talking 20deg off pointing straight ahead max.
>OK, that clarifies things. I agree, that is realistic. But it's also
>about the level that is achievable with GP2, so why is it an issue?
Because it seems more realistic and controlable compared to GP2.
As I said I could catch many spins in GP2. But I have cought many in
F1RS which turned into a slight fishtail coming out of a corner which
would have gone around in F1RS.
That isn't what I was talking about. So it seems that we were talking about
the same thing after all. That is great :-) FWIW, I am referring to the
slight
rearend wiggle/fishtail coming out of turns because of too much power.
Not really the 4-5 fishtail deal. However if the tires keep spinning from
over acceleration it can happen.
--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.
>But to most sim drivers, 'ten-tenths' means that he expects to make
>several serious mistakes during the course of a race.
Wow I guess I have no idea about this stuff at all. I thought ten-tenths
was driving as fast as physics would allow. i.e right on the hairy ends
for disaster. Right on the edge of spinning out or going off the track.
I never expect to make to make serious mistakes. But I guess it is
because I don't know anything about this stuff (thankfully).
Sure there is a chance the F1RS model is less than perfect. I believe
the arguement is that the driving model is much better than GP2 overall.
I guess not being a real driver I have no idea why this is not true.
If you are talking about car setups, no there isn't a way. You need to load
the setup for the car/circuit every time you restart F1RS. The GAME setup
is the same everytime until you change the mode MODE from GP to
Time Attack, but I doubt you are referring to this. It doesn't seem that
that big
of a deal to me to load my car setup every time I relaunch F1RS.
--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.
>Because it seems more realistic and controlable compared to GP2.
>As I said I could catch many spins in GP2. But I have cought many in
>F1RS which turned into a slight fishtail coming out of a corner which
>would have gone around in F1RS.
I meant "would have gone around in GP2". I guess I'm having a bad day :-)
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.
says...
Yeah, get the coupe, the convertible's too wobbly.
Brian
--
remove 'bye' from address to reply
>As for Randy, saying that he's a Papy beta tester hints at some slight bias
>he might be having.
A reasonable conclusion, but one that's not accurate, I'm afraid. I
tested the CPR patch for MS, and I've done some pre-release work for
other companies I can't name. I enjoyed testing for NASCAR 2 and SODA
for Papyrus but they are totally different kinds of racing than F1 or
CART. And I was NOT an ICR2 tester for them.
Many of my problems with GP2 at the time had to do with the lack of
weather and the heavy hardware requirements. The tracks also had a
lot of problems. I'm not sure what else you might be referring to.
Perhaps you could refresh my memory.
I think that ultimately if you look at the # of hours I spent on any
one sim, ICR2 would have to come out on top. GP2 and NASCAR/2 would
come in second.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Contributing Reviewer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com
On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:59:36 +1100, Bruce Kennewell
>With regard to your comment that you have a car that is too stable
>through Eau Rouge, therefore the driving model may be less than perfect,
>does it really matter?
No, in the overall scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. The rest
of Spa is very nice. Maybe I'm too much of a perfectionist....
Less <g>
No, but I relish the challenge offered by sims. I'm not a real driver and
never will be. Sims provide a means to get somewhere towards it and with
just about each major sim release it usually gets a little closer (IMHO,
CPR is the significant exception). F1RS is by far the closest in
simulating the entire experience and is closer than GP2 through slow
corners. But IMHO it's a slight step backward at the very high speed
corners.
I'm not down on F1RS, I just don't think it is better in every
department.
Shame, you had me believing for a moment <g>
Agreed, now I've got used to it, it's certainly livable with. But I did
lose some decent setups before I got used to it :(
And, boy does it show it <g>
Cheers,
Richard
Randy-- I'm certainly not going to insert my nose into this spin cycle,
but what ever happened to the CPR patch question, I wonder?
Have *you* heard anything about Build 90 being the last, best gasp
before TRI goes tripping to see g.o.d., or is Microsoft -- having
conceded round one of the DOJ bout in the hopes of conserving their
strength for the contempt battle to come -- about to have a ringside
conversion to righteousness in customer service and lay the gospel upon
us concerning the future of CPR? Or what?
Getcha free Netscape Communicator code right here, right now!!
Bart Brown
On second thought, do you think the thunderous silence of one hand
clapping means that CPR has been dissed and dismissed out of hand by the
NG's resident stim-heads? Although a couple "CPR-subject-head" threads
are still groaning around the wall of death in here, nothing substantive
has been said about the actual sim or its patches (I'm dependin' on ya,
son!) for many a diurnal twirl. Has the moving hand writ, and having
writ, moved on, or is there life in the old code yet? Give the damn
thing some CPR! Maybe we can get a pulse...
Bart Brown
Ever get the impression Bart Spencer is obsessed with Microsoft?
Check out his postings - see his ramblings and the unfolding
saga of his (fruitless) quest for a reply from MS.
Did you have a bad experience with Excel as a child, Bart?
He seems to miss MS the most - and wasn't he one of the people
who originally celebrated their departure from ras?
I think that's called IRONY.
And PITIFUL.
Dean has posted on the Apex site that there will be continued support and
there will be a CPR2.
(snip)
And, boy does it show it <g>
(unsnip)
Richard,
Before you start a session of F1RS, do what I do: uncork a bottle of
(French) Champagne, raise your (filled) glass in the direction of Paris
and hum several bars of "La Marseilles"!!
During the course of the game, empty the bottle of Champagne and, by the
end of your session, the menus will have started to make sense. :-)
--
Bruce
(at work)
"Laziness is nothing more than the habit of resting before you get
tired."
(Jules Renard)
On Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:44:24 +0100, "Joachim Trensz"
Hi Achim!,
It would be interesting to know if he had ever actually raced one -
driving a few laps in a hobbled car at a corporate event is a little
different to driving at realistic F1 speeds!
Still, even if it were the former that's a lot more experience than I've
got.
Must be different driving styles as I find F1RS slightly (but only
slightly) simpler than GP2. All those subtleties that we found in GP2
just don't seem to be there in F1RS. It may not be the driving model
though - I think that F1RS is hampered by using the Win95 joystick
routines. I really don't think they are up to the accuracy required by a
top sim :(
Everyone's opinion changes and I'll not hold an 18 month old opinion
against him ;-) As for the beta tester bit, yes it might show bias but it
also indicates that he is capable of providing good feedback on a sim.
That's not an easy thing to do. Like you I can say that something 'feels'
right or wrong, but actually trying to describe it in a manner that can
be taken on board by the developers is a rare skill, and one I really
wish I had - I would sell my mother to be a beta tester for GPL ;-))
Cheers,
Richard
I have absolutely no idea what's going with CPR from either
Microsoft's or TRI's point of view. All I can do is surmise, just
like you. My feeling is that Microsoft will probably look for some
other small development shop they can hand off next year's version to.
I seriously doubt we'll see any patches unless there's something in
TRI's contract which requires them to fix their existing code. Next
year's version could be a re-write, or simply an update once the new
development team learns the code. At this point, I just have no idea
what's going on. Its not great news for us CART fans.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Contributing Reviewer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com
Quoted text (13 lines)
> Ever get the impression Bart Spencer is obsessed with Microsoft? > Check out his postings - see his ramblings and the unfolding > saga of his (fruitless) quest for a reply from MS. > Did you have a bad experience with Excel as a child, Bart? > He seems to miss MS the most - and wasn't he one of the people > who originally celebrated their departure from ras? > I think that's called IRONY. > And PITIFUL.> Ever get the impression Bart Spencer is obsessed with Microsoft?
Paul --
Yes, I'm an unmedicated obsessive-compulsive, and completely biased
against Microsoft...what else could explain my asking the same question
over and over? Certainly MS/TRI has been *completely* responsive to the
same question from everyone else, right?
BTW, I can see by your message header that you're just an objective
seeker after truth:
<<Subject: Bart: get therapy buddy!
Date: 22 Jan 1998 23:46:01 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.>>
Say...WHAT was the name of that organization again? Must be a
coincidence...
So, since you brought it up, and you are, apparently, somehow connected
with MS, maybe you can tell us: have we seen the final patch to CPR v1,
or are you guys actually going to make an attempt at fixing the rest of
it?
I'm looking for my lithium right now...
Bart
> Dean has posted on the Apex site that there will be continued support and
> there will be a CPR2.
Yes, he has, and I've even read it. It doesn't quite answer the
question, though, does it? I would say a significant (to say the least)
majority of CPR players on this NG are of the opinion that Build 90 did
not, by a long shot, make CPR work as advertised these many moons by MS.
I could be wrong, according to mysterious Microsoft employee "PaulP"...
Bart
Hi Bart,
I dont know. Like I told Byron on the Apex site this morning, I am just
taking a few months off from my construction company. I just thought doing
some sim racing would be nice. I dont know what the original claims that MS
made even were. All I know is this, I am not finding reading the NG to be a
good way to relax. The general lack of tolerance for anyone to like
something that the "majority" deems unworthy is well.... depressing to say
the least. Good luck to you folks I hope you find what your looking for in
a sim. I really mean that in the best of ways. Cya, Mike
> > Dean has posted on the Apex site that there will be continued support and
Quoted text (10 lines)
> > there will be a CPR2. > Yes, he has, and I've even read it. It doesn't quite answer the > question, though, does it? I would say a significant (to say the least) > majority of CPR players on this NG are of the opinion that Build 90 did > not, by a long shot, make CPR work as advertised these many moons by MS. > I could be wrong, according to mysterious Microsoft employee "PaulP"... > Bart<<He seems to miss MS the most - and wasn't he one of the people
who originally celebrated their departure from ras?>>
By the by -- I didn't "celebrate" Microsoft's departure (though I like
the disingenuous way you use the third-person in referring to your own
organization); I celebrated the departure of a "representative" of MS
who was completely unprofessional in his official capacity.
His replacement, the long-lamented John Browne, made a big noise coming
in (essentially saying exactly what you've said: anyone who doesn't
worship the fabulousness of CPR is anti-Microsoft, and therefore
entirely dismissable), talking about how much he valued the NG's input,
and how he was here to listen, and how MS was going to support CPR 'til
the end of time, and how his door was always open... but, strangely, he
hasn't made peep one since that last message.
Other than poor old Dean Lester's announcement of the latest (Last? Who
knows? Microsoft does...) patch to CPR v1, there has been no detectable
MS presence in the NG -- excepting this potshot at my untherapized and
obviously mentally-unbalanced attempts to get MS to just answer one
simple question -- a question that ONLY MS can answer, and a question
that many others have asked and asked again to no avail whatsoever: Is
the latest patch announced by Dean Lester the last patch of CPR before
MS crows to the world again about the "greatest racing sim EVER
produced" and drops CPR v2 (with a generous update offer to those
saddled with the infirm version 1, I'm SO sure) onto the market?
Such a simple question. Such a huge evasion.
Bart "call me crazy" Brown
Quoted text (14 lines)
> >LOL!! > >Byron, *OF COURSE* it's "opinionated"!! > >Every "I like/don't like" post here *is* opinionated!! :-) > >I couldn't think of anything more boring than watching a 1.5 hour replay > >of a computer game/sim. Good Lord.....you do that to 'wind > >down'????!!!! > I just finished a 200 lapper at Martinsville on NROS last night and my > machine has the entire replay. Do I watch the whole thing? Nope, but > I can fast forward and fast backward to see certain highlights, close > encounters, great passes, etc. And if I see something I really like, > I can clip it and save it, then delete the big replay file. So yeah, > I like full race replays.Quoted text (16 lines)
> > The type of fish tailing refered to is not a 90deg sideways thing. > >We're talking 20deg off pointing straight ahead max. > OK, that clarifies things. I agree, that is realistic. But it's also > about the level that is achievable with GP2, so why is it an issue? > Maybe part of the problem is terminology. To me 'fish tailing' is what > you see in car chases at the movies <g> An F1 car never gets that far out > of shape without spinning due to the loss of aerodynamic downforce. It's > when people start claiming that it is realistic to catch ridiculous > errors that I get annoyed. If people want 'fun' driving models (e.g. GP2 > with OL) then that's fine, but they're kidding themselves if they > consider it realistic. > Cheers, > RichardQuoted text (8 lines)
> Overall I'd say you're right, it absolutely creams GP2 in the graphics > and frame-ratedept. I score it far more closely than you in terms of > driving though, with GP2 a bit ahead on the overall experience. GP2 > also wins out in areas like sound and setup. Overall F1RS is better I > think, but purely from a driving viewpoint I still prefer GP2. > Cheers! > JohnQuoted text (10 lines)
> Here's exactly what I mean. Sometimes when I come out of a corner in >2nd gear and get on the gas a little early I get the back coming out a >little. Doing this in ICR2 say, I would give it a good solid flick back >the other way and that's that. In F1RS this "solid flick" will >overcorrect the car and doing this again will overcorrect the car, etc >and thus what I refer to as "fishtailing". I think that when anyone >experiences this in F1RS that you'll agree it is very realistic. Maybe >some of you have better touch with the wheel than me and you'll never >know :) Probably one of the reasons I noticed this is because of the >habbits one can afford with ICR2.> Dean has posted on the Apex site that there will be continued support and
> there will be a CPR2.
Yes, but it looks like he may have meant that CPR 2 is the
continued support - or the track editor. A very vague and terrifying
message it is! If the first sentence I wrote is true then I can only say
"HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA, what a joke!"
> Exactly. It can also be very useful when practicing in traffic to see
>exactly how your car is aligned relative to the AI - something that the
>replays can give suprising evidence as to just how unsafe your safe
>overtaking manouvers are for eg :)
I would say that is probably the single most useful aspect of replays. I
hate to think how many times I thought I got cut off by the AI in N2 only
for the replay very clearly show that I hadn't held my line. Without
replays I would still be wrecking most races ;-)
Cheers,
Richard
> Richard,
> Before you start a session of F1RS, do what I do: uncork a bottle of
> (French) Champagne, raise your (filled) glass in the direction of Paris
> and hum several bars of "La Marseilles"!!
All Champagne is French. It is the type of sparkling wine produced in and
around the
Champagne region in France using specific winemaking techniques -
fermenting and
bottling the wine and then adding a little extra sugar and yeast to the
individual bottles.
The yeast ferments the excess sugar, yielding bubbles and increasing the
yeasty flavor of
the wine. The bottles are then tilted downwards and the dead yeast settles
in the neck of
the bottle, which is then frozen and removed and the bottle is then
recorked, shipped, and sold.
Quoted text (9 lines)
> Hi Bart, > I dont know. Like I told Byron on the Apex site this morning, I am just > taking a few months off from my construction company. I just thought doing > some sim racing would be nice. I dont know what the original claims that MS > made even were. All I know is this, I am not finding reading the NG to be a > good way to relax. The general lack of tolerance for anyone to like > something that the "majority" deems unworthy is well.... depressing to say > the least. Good luck to you folks I hope you find what your looking for in > a sim. I really mean that in the best of ways. Cya, MikeHehe hi Byron,
This is so odd that you always bring up posts that I
put up over a week ago? And to answer your question no like I said in this
very post ( see below) I own a construction company. Hence the name Mikes
Designs get it hehe. It would be fun to work for a computer company I
suppose. But I bet I make way more money than I would at a computer;-) You
know Byron in spite of our little spats I enjoy your posts they are kinda
odd but interesting. Feel free to E-mail me direct anytime while I am on
break here all I do is play at these sims and do the knee draggin stuff.
Aloha, Mike
> > Hi Bart,
> > I dont know. Like I told Byron on the Apex site this morning, I am just
> > taking a few months off from my construction company. I just thought doing
> > some sim racing would be nice. I dont know what the original claims that MS
> > made even were. All I know is this, I am not finding reading the NG to be a
> > good way to relax. The general lack of tolerance for anyone to like
> > something that the "majority" deems unworthy is well.... depressing to say
> > the least. Good luck to you folks I hope you find what your looking for in
> > a sim. I really mean that in the best of ways. Cya, Mike
> Are you working for MS on your break Mike?
Hi Byron,
Knee draggin refers to Sport Bike/ Superbike riding. I have
raced Motorcycles most of my life. Everything from MX, Enduro, TT, and Flat
Tack. Now that I am getting old <ggg> all my kidneys can handle is the road
race type bikes. Knee draggin is what you do through the turns. You have
probably seen pictures of this maybe lets see your in Australia right? Ever
get a chance check out the Super Bikes at Phillip Island. Ever hear of Troy
Corser he was hot in Super Bikes! I have not been following this year much
as I have been too busy with work but he went on to race GP bikes and last
time I checked well he was still getting used to it but I bet he will do
ok. Then of course you have Mick Doohan also from Australia in GP and he is
AWESOME!!!! Hehe Cya, Mike
Feel free to E-mail me direct anytime while I am on
