Nascar 3: How?

Can anyone tell me how to get a hold of the guys who are working on N3? Have a few I dea they might like. Thanx in advance

Really not a way to get a hold of them. They would not like their email addresses given out. There are alot of new ideas and features that will be going into N3, it is just a matter of which ones can make it in or not. Best thing to do is to post them here and then maybe someone that knows might forward a good idea to the design team. Brian

> Can anyone tell me how to get a hold of the guys who are working on > N3? Have a few I dea they might like. Thanx in advance The company is Papyrus, a division of Sierra, a division of CUC, a division of Cendant. :-) The paper mail address is: Papyrus One Arsenal Marketplace Watertown, MA 02172 A good approach is to discuss the ideas in rec.autos.sim. I assure you that Papyrus eyes are watching... And the ideas will benefit from public discussions. Keep in mind not every suggestion makes sense, and those that do may not make it into a given product. But it's worth making them for a lot of them do. Realistically, e-mail to some random person (or support, or feedback, or whatever) at Sierra will more likely end up in the bitbucket than in the hands of a producer or designer on the N3 team. ---Jim

Speaking of ideas for NASCAR3, my main hope is that you can make adjustments to the cars like they do in NASCAR - i.e., trackbar. Thanks for the heads up, Jim. :)

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>> Can anyone tell me how to get a hold of the guys who are working on >> N3? Have a few I dea they might like. Thanx in advance >The company is Papyrus, a division of Sierra, a division of CUC, a >division of Cendant. :-) >The paper mail address is: >Papyrus >One Arsenal Marketplace >Watertown, MA 02172 >A good approach is to discuss the ideas in rec.autos.sim. I assure you >that Papyrus eyes are watching... And the ideas will benefit from >public discussions. >Keep in mind not every suggestion makes sense, and those that do may >not make it into a given product. But it's worth making them for a lot >of them do. >Realistically, e-mail to some random person (or support, or feedback, >or whatever) at Sierra will more likely end up in the bitbucket than >in the hands of a producer or designer on the N3 team. >---Jim

This suggestion has probably been given but how about having tire blow outs like in real WC races. I even think the sun glare idea from NASCAR 2 is now possible with the advances in 3dfx technology, ect since N2. John

Since N3 will be using the same physics model as GPL, alot of the the things you can work with in the garage will be more real. Instead of shocks, you will have shocks and springs. Past Papyrus sims would not let you seperate this due to the physics that it used. If I am not mistaken, I think the trackbar will be another adjustment you can make but not sure on that. Brian

ummm, don't pit and you will get a tire blow out. :> I know what you mean here though, a more random chance of running over something and have a tire failure, either by it going down or blowing out. Hope so too. The sun glare screen shots we all before N2 looked pretty darn good. Brian

Hmmm, a mis-handling race car... which tire to change? We also shouldn't be able to look at certain things during the race... like tire temps, etc. I would think with a tire going down, the ability to look at some of this stuff gives an unfair advantage :) on second thought - keep it in! <grin>

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>>Speaking of ideas for NASCAR3, my main hope is that you can make >>adjustments to the cars like they do in NASCAR - i.e., trackbar. > This suggestion has probably been given but how about having tire >blow outs like in real WC races. I even think the sun glare idea from >NASCAR 2 is now possible with the advances in 3dfx technology, ect >since N2. >John

How about flat spotted tires after a spin?

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>> This suggestion has probably been given but how about having tire >> blow outs like in real WC races. I even think the sun glare idea from >> NASCAR 2 is now possible with the advances in 3dfx technology, ect >> since N2. >> John >ummm, don't pit and you will get a tire blow out. :> I know what you >mean here though, a more random chance of running over something and have >a tire failure, either by it going down or blowing out. >Hope so too. The sun glare screen shots we all before N2 looked pretty >darn good. >Brian

Hi, Actually, I have an idea for the replay system in N3. With N2 you can only use one clip in a replay (you click "cut" once to start a replay clip, and then you click "cut" again to stop and save it) For N3 maybe we could have mulitiple clips per replay. For example if you wanted to save 2 incidents that are stored in memory in one replay file. Or if you wanted mulitiple views of a wreck in one replay file. A slow-motion option would also be cool! (why not also have one of those "white-pen things" that B.P. uses on WC race broadcasts to highlight things!, or at least the ability to highlight certain cars in a replay, while shading or darkening everything else.) Just a few ideas, John

The one thing i would like in the replay is for the incar view instead of driving over to the right side of the car how bout making it the same view you have in the race. I like to look at replays to see diffrent lines and such but I cant get the real feeling for the line because the incar view has me sitting in the middle of the car. maybe make a drivers view? also another big one would be please in painkit give us fonts that we can use from our windows directory and let us beable to choose the font size. anyone else get frustrated using text in paintkit but you cant change the font size to fit on your car right? -- Brian Motisko BMR Racing #96 Jolt Cola, Hooters Ford taurus http://members.aol.com/bmotisko/private/index.htm http://www.concentric.net/~motisko/nasra.htm

> How about flat spotted tires after a spin? There are so many good ideas of additions to the Nascar sims. There are alot of ideas being tossed around that I'm not able to comment on but lets say this area of realism will be much improved over N2. Brian

Pretty neat concept too John. Only problem I see is that there are probably alot of other things that they would want to get into N3 before doing something that drastic in the replay system. Seeing that most people spend 95% plus of their simualation time driving the cars in real time, that those are the areas that will get the most attention. I would think the replay system will have some enhancements over N2 but don't know if they would be able to go as far as what you are thinking. Brian

> Hmmm, a mis-handling race car... which tire to change? We also > shouldn't be able to look at certain things during the race... like > tire temps, etc. I would think with a tire going down, the ability to > look at some of this stuff gives an unfair advantage :) on second > thought - keep it in! <grin> Driving cars on the computer compared to a real car is very lacking. With that in thought, sim producers have to give you other info to replace the info you get from being in a car itself. In a real car entering a turn, you best feel for what the car is doing is in the bottom of your seat along with how the wheel feels. You can't get this over a computer so they have to give you other areas to since this...aka the tire noise made in the turns. In a real Stock car, you can barely hear this if at all but in a Papyrus sim, It is big clue how what the car is doing. Same goes for the tire temp readout. It is just another tool to give the driver a better since in what the car is doing. Any unfair advantage I can get on an AI that just punted me in the wall while trying to pit, I'll take. :> Brian

I would like to see flat tires, flat spotted tires after a spin, oil/water debris if a car blows an engine, debris on track can puncture a tire, sun glare, seperate shock/springs (I guess that is coming), track bar, and NASCAR stopping its favortism of Gordon. Never mind... that last item would make the game unrealistic!! ;) Scott (Give DJ his points back from Watkins Glen and Jarrett is WC Champion)

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> > Seeing that most > >people spend 95% plus of their simualation time driving the cars in real > >time, that those are the areas that will get the most attention. > I guess 95% is about right! I usually look at replays just to see > something cool I did, and then it's back to racing! I'd rather see > even more realistic addons to n3 than changes to the replay system > anyway (It was just an idea I had while using the replay system last > night). SODA has a great new 3d physics model (and it's only the > beginning), I look forward to seeing what GPL and N3 are like! > Later, > John

-- /////////////////////////////////////////// // // // Scott B. Husted // // // // http://home.ptd.net/~sbhusted // // // // // // // ///////////////////////////////////////////

Those are all good ideas... I'd also like to see a bit more "eye candy," if possible, but mainly in replay--if a car suffers an engine failure or a fire, it starts smoking in the view from the race (so you know something is seriously wrong and it may be laying down oil or water), with more detail available in the replay (i.e., a car that's gonna drop out due to a fire has visible flames, but only in replay)... and my personal fave, being able to tell the crew chief to do partial repairs. (I know, it's sort of possible with N2, but it's more realistic to tell the crew what to fix before coming in rather than having to keep track of what panel they're working on...) Oh, yes, a couple other things I'd like to see... tape on the grille, a visible tow truck, and having reverse be a separate gear where you downshift to it and hit the gas to back up. RM Owner/Driver, Vulpine Racing #65 ACME Industries Ford Taurus (if we get it built in time for Daytona) http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~rmanning/vulpineracing.html

I did forget to mention the tow truck item =) A moving pit crew would be awesome... but could you imagine the load on the cpu =) I can hear the framerate complaints and storage requirements already =) Scott

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> >I would like to see flat tires, flat spotted tires after a spin, > >oil/water debris if a car blows an engine, debris on track can puncture > >a tire, sun glare, seperate shock/springs (I guess that is coming), > >track bar, and NASCAR stopping its favortism of Gordon. > >Never mind... that last item would make the game unrealistic!! ;) > Those are all good ideas... I'd also like to see a bit more "eye candy," if > possible, but mainly in replay--if a car suffers an engine failure or a fire, > it starts smoking in the view from the race (so you know something is seriously > wrong and it may be laying down oil or water), with more detail available in the > replay (i.e., a car that's gonna drop out due to a fire has visible flames, but > only in replay)... and my personal fave, being able to tell the crew chief to > do partial repairs. (I know, it's sort of possible with N2, but it's more > realistic to tell the crew what to fix before coming in rather than having to > keep track of what panel they're working on...) > Oh, yes, a couple other things I'd like to see... tape on the grille, a visible > tow truck, and having reverse be a separate gear where you downshift to it and > hit the gas to back up. > RM > Owner/Driver, Vulpine Racing #65 ACME Industries Ford Taurus (if we get it built > in time for Daytona) > http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~rmanning/vulpineracing.html

-- /////////////////////////////////////////// // // // Scott B. Husted // // // // http://home.ptd.net/~sbhusted // // // // // // // ///////////////////////////////////////////

LOL Scott. If I have anything to do with, Gordon's AI setting will have him blowing an engine 75% of the races he is in. :> Hey, I can dream can't I? hehehehehe No doubt! Maybe this year! Brian

Brian, I wont deny the kids got a load of driving talent. However.... I feel that a few too many occurences happen in his favor throughout a season. The DJ incident in WG really ticked me off. If it were Gordon... NO WAY would NASCAR have black flagged him with 3 laps to go when the car behind him said their was NO fluid coming out of the car. As far as N3.... I think Gordon should wreck in the pits all by himself so the game is realistic ;) Scott

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> > I would like to see flat tires, flat spotted tires after a spin, > > oil/water debris if a car blows an engine, debris on track can puncture > > a tire, sun glare, seperate shock/springs (I guess that is coming), > > track bar, and NASCAR stopping its favortism of Gordon. > > Never mind... that last item would make the game unrealistic!! ;) > LOL Scott. If I have anything to do with, Gordon's AI setting will have him > blowing an engine 75% of the races he is in. :> Hey, I can dream can't I? > hehehehehe > > Scott > > (Give DJ his points back from Watkins Glen and Jarrett is WC Champion) > No doubt! Maybe this year! > Brian

-- /////////////////////////////////////////// // // // Scott B. Husted // // // // http://home.ptd.net/~sbhusted // // // // // // // ///////////////////////////////////////////

I guess it is always on how real do you want the damage model. Alot of the wrecks that we survive in N2 and even stay on the lead lap put a real car out of the race. I'm hoping for more levels of damage. To be real, you should loose a lap even for a minor incident, where as it is in N2, you can crunch up the car a little and get it fixed and still stay on the lead lap at most of the tracks. I guess it would depend on the damage level and if the physics would allow you to change certain things to be fixed. The fire issue is always touchy since Nascar has a say-so in what is involved with the sim. Naturally, they don't want to see any fire in the accidents because of the nature of tragdady involved with fire in accidents. Personally, I would like to see it to on a rare occasion but I would not hold your breath on that one. You ever wonder why you don't see the car parts fly outside of the pit walls in N1 and N2 accidents?...you guessed it. Nascar does not want a game showing car parts flying up in the stands....one of their biggest fears. Thought about this last year when Ernie's hood flew up in the stands in the Daytona 500. Since you most rarely ever use the reverse in Nascar racing, I could not seeing this being a big issue. The tow truck and emergency vehicals was something I would like to see too. With Indy 500, the Papyrus sim in about 1989, wrecked cars would stay on the track for laps so a 6 car wreck could take 5 or 6 laps to clear up. I500's AI had the ability to negotiate the wrecked cars where later Papyrus sims that included multiple tracks, did not have this ability. That is why you would see the car vanish after 15 seconds. Ever notice the AI cars bunch up when there was a few cars wrecked on the track. Imagine putting a tow truck and rescue vehicals out there too. :> What a mess :> Good news is that along with the new physics comes new and smarter AI that should be smart enough to get around disabled cars on the track. If this is so, I hope the other vehicals make it in too but I'm sure there more to it than that. Only about 300 more days till we get to play this sucker. Damn, 1998 is going to be a long year. :> Brian

Really don't want to get into it here but I heard some other stories from sources close to it that said there were some very bad situations going on with Gordon and his team. Lets say that any other sport would of treated it like they did Pete Rose. Since hearing that, I'm not quite as intrested in Nascar as I use to be....might as well watch professi***wrestleing. :< Brian

: > Can anyone tell me how to get a hold of the guys who are working on : > N3? Have a few I dea they might like. Thanx in advance : A good approach is to discuss the ideas in rec.autos.sim. I assure you : that Papyrus eyes are watching... And the ideas will benefit from : public discussions. For what it's worth, my main wishes: 1) Smarter and more varied AI 2) More car adjustment options (probably already addressed by GPL-derived physics) 3) Variable track conditions during a race to make pit strategy and adjustments more challenging (*** laid down in the groove, changing track temperature, "marbles", etc.) 4) Improved user interface: - More adjustable steering range, sensitivity, and nonlinearity (ideally a garage adjustment for optimization to different tracks). - My ideal for reverse-gear (without need for more controller switches): When in 1st-gear, depressing and _holding_ the downshift button/lever would invoke reverse gear, with normal throttle control via the gas pedal. - faster menu system and "popup window" garage rather than leaving the track. - Assignable keystrokes for hotkeys. I hate alt-key-combos and fumbling for Pause. It would also be nice to have primitive macros, e.g. for setting multiple graphics options on/off at once. Also, controller or gamepad buttons should be assignable to pit-board functions. There's no ideal way to configure this for all dirvers or setups, so why not do the right thing and make it programmable like the controller functions are? -- Scott Willingham / Hewlett-Packard Laboratories

I guess 95% is about right! I usually look at replays just to see something cool I did, and then it's back to racing! I'd rather see even more realistic addons to n3 than changes to the replay system anyway (It was just an idea I had while using the replay system last night). SODA has a great new 3d physics model (and it's only the beginning), I look forward to seeing what GPL and N3 are like! Later, John

Well, GP2 had some pretty cool flames when your engine blew sometimes (I don't know about F1RS, I'll probably have to get a faster system than my P120 before I purchise it to really enjoy the game!). I don't think it would be much of a stretch to put these things in N3 (especially with 3dfx technology). I'll know the crash "eye candy" is good when I see wrecks like the one Steve Grissom had at Atlanta last March in a NASCAR game! (I was amazed to see him walk out and talk to reporters after that wild wreck!) I'd much rather see better gameplay in NASCAR3 than spetacular wrecks, I think competition and close racing is what NASCAR is about not crashes. (although they are eveviltably a part of motor racing.). John

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>> How about flat spotted tires after a spin? >There are so many good ideas of additions to the Nascar sims. There are alot >of ideas being tossed around that I'm not able to comment on but lets say this >area of realism will be much improved over N2. >Brian

That's good! thanks for the info.

Or if Jeff Burton had tagged him at Darlington on that last lap :)

>Oh, yes, a couple other things I'd like to see... tape on the grille, a visible >tow truck, and having reverse be a separate gear where you downshift to it and >hit the gas to back up. Tape on the grill... that's one I forgot! On the Crew Chief and partial repairs, how about a crew chief with some common sense? Common sense says that no matter what (unless you're 50 laps down or something), that you will stop repairs and say "go go go!" and beat the pace car, then have your crew chief come over the radio and say "come back in, we have more work to do..." I hate having to sweat it, and sometimes they don't let you off the jack soon enough, I get aggravated...

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>I guess it is always on how real do you want the damage model. Alot of the wrecks >that we survive in N2 and even stay on the lead lap put a real car out of the race. >I'm hoping for more levels of damage. To be real, you should loose a lap even for a >minor incident, where as it is in N2, you can crunch up the car a little and get it >fixed and still stay on the lead lap at most of the tracks. I guess it would depend >on the damage level and if the physics would allow you to change certain things to >be fixed.

You bring up some good points. The damage level needs to be more touchy. I'm also not crazy about taking the outside lane during races. Not that I can't handle the outside groove - the AI doesn't seem to notice me 75% of the time, and it's into the wall you go, while they continue on with no problems....

If that were Dale Earnhardt, Ernie Ervin, or Jimmy Spencer at Darlington... Jeff Gordon would never have won the Winston Million or the Championship. I think its speaks a bit about Jeff Burton as a racer.... he could have easily taken Gordon out. Scott

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> >I would like to see flat tires, flat spotted tires after a spin, > >oil/water debris if a car blows an engine, debris on track can puncture > >a tire, sun glare, seperate shock/springs (I guess that is coming), > >track bar, and NASCAR stopping its favortism of Gordon. > >Never mind... that last item would make the game unrealistic!! ;) > >Scott > >(Give DJ his points back from Watkins Glen and Jarrett is WC Champion) > Or if Jeff Burton had tagged him at Darlington on that last lap :)

-- ///////////////////////////////////////////////// // // // Scott B. Husted // // // // http://home.ptd.net/~sbhusted // // // // // // // // ICQ# 4395450 // // // /////////////////////////////////////////////////

I don't have much interest in improved catastrophes (flat tires, etc.), but want improvements in racing. I would like to see: Lock up of brakes and spinning rear wheels under acceleration on short tracks if you're not smooth. Slightly slower qualifying speeds for the AI, compared to race speeds. Force feedback on brakes is more important than steering, IMHO. Telemetry in replays (I know it's not allowed in WC; put a switch on it). bob

Actually, IIRC, Burton said after the race that he WAS trying to take Gordon out, but "flat missed him"... RM [link lost in import: /~rmanning/vulpineracing.html]

I think you missed your "quote" on that one... Its been a while, so Im not going to make a quote as you did. But I believe it was more to the effect that Burton was out to win and he was'nt going to hand the race to Jeff on a Silver Platter. He was going to have to work for it. Im sure Nascar would have had something to say about a statement like that. -- ============================================== = http://www.ctaz.com/~wyle = = The Wasteland BBS is FREE (520)-754-4731 = ==============================================

I know ideas are a dime a dozen, but how about your brakes wearing, especially at Martinsville!!! Of course, ONLINE, this becomes another excuse. :) But, it would add a touch of realism. Also I like hearing that the damage physics model in N3 could be more realistic. In both N1 & N2 if you have any damge at all you can usually get it repaired within two minutes. I'd like to see where when you get towed back to the pits/garage, or you limp back, your crew estimate time that it would take to fix the car, at least to driveable condition. How many times have we seen WC champions that did just that during the course of the season. Get into a wreck, and return later and pick up several positions, and valuable points. Ex. both Gordon & Martin at the fall dega race. Once again though, ONLINE this could be a bummer knowing you'd have to sit 30 minutes waiting on repairs, but I really think it would be cool. And for offline racing the same could hold true for the AI. Their status could be "Garage" while repairs were being made. I also would like to see when you run over debris the possibility of having a tire go down, or a piece of debris could cause damage to your car. How about trash on the grill, with the possibility of overheating? This kinda of goes along the lines of tape on the grill. Speaking of tape, how about the crew trying to use some of that 200 mph tape on damage at the tracks where areodynamics come into play! I still like the way Earnhardt's crew fabricated a fender this last year at Pocono! those are just a few :) Scott

> Lock up of brakes and spinning rear wheels under > acceleration on short tracks if you're not smooth. This is a huge deal and will be a big improvement over N2... I think you're confusing two somewhat different issues. One is a force-sensing brake pedal (as opposed to a position-sensing brake pedal as all current controllers). The other is actual feedback, which is really only relevant for out-of-round rotors, broken brake lines, etc. I think the former item buys you >95% of what's lacking in current pedal designs. The latter would be nice, but much more expensive than the former. It's allowed during test days, just not during race weekend practice, qual, happy hour, or race. ---Jim

F1RS (and some others like NFS) leave marks on the track that are still there when you return. Papy had once said it was impossible, but may have been at a time when the technology wasn't up to***(not sure). Cheers! Marc

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> A buddy and I were talking about starting your first race at a track with it > clean. No groove, and no *** marks on the walls. When a car slams the > wall, it then gets marked up, and when you return to the track, the marks are > still there. Same way with a groove. After many laps and races, the groove > slowly starts to show itself in relation to where cars drive. It was just an > unrealistic thought, since doing something like that would mean a huge .dat > file for each track, since the track would have to be broken up into tons of > pieces, instead of the big chucks it is now. It would still be cool though. > But one realistic thing we thought of was a working scoreboard. That really > shouldn't be that difficult to do. > Dave-

-- Marc J. Nelson Sim Racing News - http://www.simnews.com The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

A buddy and I were talking about starting your first race at a track with it clean. No groove, and no *** marks on the walls. When a car slams the wall, it then gets marked up, and when you return to the track, the marks are still there. Same way with a groove. After many laps and races, the groove slowly starts to show itself in relation to where cars drive. It was just an unrealistic thought, since doing something like that would mean a huge .dat file for each track, since the track would have to be broken up into tons of pieces, instead of the big chucks it is now. It would still be cool though. But one realistic thing we thought of was a working scoreboard. That really shouldn't be that difficult to do. Dave-

Note, however, that the tyre marks only exist during that session you are currently running. If you save, exit and then load the saved game, the marks will have disappeared. Also, the marks gradually fade as the session goes on......giving the impression (to me, anyway!) that the traffic passing over the particular spot wears away the original evidence of your excursion or excessive wheelspin/brake lockup. I do like the fact that the AI leave no tyre marks. This makes it far easier to be reminded each lap of your own mistake(s)! Sort of like a criminal being confronted by the incriminating evidence on a regular basis! :-) -- Bruce (at work) "Laziness is nothing more than the habit of resting before you get tired." (Jules Renard)

Just an after-thought: I have left a lot of Goodyear *** across the length and breadth of the world over the past fortnight! -- Bruce (at work) "Laziness is nothing more than the habit of resting before you get tired." (Jules Renard)

Since more and more sims are doing this type of thing, maybe Papy can add it too but I think it will all depend on the design engine that N3 will use. FYI and you probably already know this, but most races will start with a groove unless it has rained and washed the *** off of the track the night before. Still a good idea for the track to be dynamic. As far as the scoreboard goes, if you have time to look at it as you pass, you are going to slow. :> I really hope efforts can go into the first idea instead of the latter. Brian

On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:53:36 +1100, Bruce Kennewell >Also, the marks gradually fade as the session goes on......giving the >impression (to me, anyway!) that the traffic passing over the particular >spot wears away the original evidence of your excursion or excessive >wheelspin/brake lockup. There's a limit as to how much *** is displayed on the track. Do a standing start and really light up the tyres, complete the lap and stop about 50 yards short of the first *** mark. Light up the tyres again and you will see the previous *** being erased ahead of you! Cheers, Richard