C.A.R.T Precision Racing

> Was just checking out all the features and screen shots of C.A.R.T PR and > WOW!Papy is going to have to get on the ball if thier going to beat this > one.Thier little SODA off road racing and the so called Grand Prix > legends,just aren't going to cut it in my book. GP Legends looks great to me. If it drives like N2 and ICR2 with more wheelspin/brake locking and has an onboard perspective it should be fun. After purchasing Power F1, Formula 1(both losers) recently I can only hope that Microsoft can come close to the driving model of ICR2. I agree that CART has the looks though, we'll just have to wait for the feeling though. ps X-Car was poop also! -- ___ _______ ________ ______ __ __ ______ ____ ___| |__ | __|__ __| _____| \ / / _____| \ | | _ \ |__ | | | | ____| \ \/ /| ____|| |\ | |_ ) | |_______| |__| |______| \ __ / |______|___| \____|________| "By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer meets thedefinition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C), it is unlawful to send any unsolicited adverti***t to such equipment. BySec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500, whichever is greater, for each violation."

In my humble opinion as a beta tester of CART PR, I can tell you that the physics are much better than ICR2, which I like and have played extensively. In fact, I would say that the physics might be better than N2 and GP2, the current champs. There is quite a bit to say on this, but I'll just throw in two examples for now: the front wheels actually turn the car (including the computer cars), rather than the car rotating around a central axis. This gives a very realistic feel, and look. You might have to see it in action to appreciate the difference. It also includes rain (finally) and you can choose rain tires. It is wild driving in the rain without them! Of course, you guys (and gals) will have to form your own opinions, and I look forward to hearing them. The demo should be out relatively soon. As always, for more info check out the web site shown below. Jim Getzen --------------------------------------------- Unofficial CART Precision Racing Headquarters http://members.home.net/getzen/ ---------------------------------------------

What I'd like to know is how well CART PR will run on my machine (P133+Rendition). I'm happy to upgrade to a Rendition V2100 chip for much improved Direct3D performance + backwards compatibility, but I'd like to know if the testers are busy using P200+ MMX machines with 3dfx boards in them. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

> Was just checking out all the features and screen shots of C.A.R.T PR and > WOW!Papy is going to have to get on the ball if thier going to beat this > one.Thier little SODA off road racing and the so called Grand Prix > legends,just aren't going to cut it in my book. It does look good but I would wait before saying it will kick GPL's tail. I know Sentell and the guy is a damn perfectionist because he was once one of us....a lowly tester/game player that loved sims. I think the two will be so differant that they will be hard to compare. I'll take my hat off to Microsoft because the screen shots look great but that all I can tell right now. I have seen alot of screen shots and sometimes they don't measure up to game play. Time will tell but I'm like you, I can't wait to see it in action. Brian

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> >In my humble opinion as a beta tester of CART PR, I can tell you that > >the physics are much better than ICR2, which I like and have played > >extensively. In fact, I would say that the physics might be better > >than N2 and GP2, the current champs. > Well, ICR2 isn't exactly a new product, but still is an awesome sim. > I think hats off to Papyrus for having a 3 <or so> year old Sim that > still is competitive with the latest and greatest. > Plus, as good as CART PR looks, it's still being sold by MS. It'll > have to be AWESOMELY good for me to buy it :)

Maybe you'll get a free copy...

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> Rich > ---- > Senior System and Database Administrator > Premiere Technologies, Inc - http://www.premierecom.com > ---- > For Internet based racing, visit the IGN: > http://www.applink.net/rscott/ign/welcome.htm > ---- > "There are only two industries on this planet that would use a term like "user" for its customers: > the computer industry and the drug cartels."

>Nice to see you here more regularly anyway, hope they'e keeping you >busy developing what will keep us busy in the future (or something >like that...!) You guys have noooooooooo idea... it's got ME drooling, I'll tell you that! Thanks for the welcome back. -- Papyrus Design Group, Inc. My opinion, not Papyrus' or Sierra's.

Hi Getzen, I wanted to read these words! Recentry products are just a acade games.( Moto Racer, IRC etc) I want new Simulators! I could understand physics and situational represations are great. Well, How about AI cars? We'll be able to do side by side battle with them? Nascar2 and GP2 have good AI cars. Running with 20 or 40 cars are really exciting. of course, Online race are exciting too. Yoshihiko MInami

R: Relative to the rest of the racing market their extrodinary. Is it perfect? No. Is it better than almost anything? Yes. Q.B.M.

>Relative to the rest of the racing market their extrodinary. Is it perfect? >No. Is it better than almost anything? Yes. N2 AI is FAR from perfect. Set the ai 101% or greater and try to pass them. They will always cut down on you if any part of their car is still visible through the right side of your windshield. It's really pathetic if you ask me. So the AI guy at Papy quit. That is not an excuse for them to just ignore fixing the ai totally. A number of people in the sim community seem to be able to do a better job than Papy at programming the AI. Perhaps Papy should look to hire one of these chaps. Blight, The Black Death

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> >> NASCAR 2 has good AIs?? Hmm.. I really don't think so. The AIs are the > >"dumbest" > >> I have ever seen from Papy... If the N2 AIs are so good, then why the AI > >> updates?? > >> The AIs in N2 are blind!! Especially when you are underneath them.. > >> GP2 on the other hand, they have "brains".. > >> Ciao > >> Julian Data > >R: > >Relative to the rest of the racing market their extrodinary. Is it perfect? > >No. Is it better than almost anything? Yes. > >Q.B.M. > Are they N2 AIs perfect than other sims, if you are comparing them to GP2 or > even SODA?? HAH! NOPE! Don't get my wrong, I love Papy sims. Yet the AI still > need some improvements. They still race they way did in N1. They don't challenge > you. When you pass them, they just "drop back". > So where's the competition with the AIs?? Is it just a pass and that is it? Or > when they try to come up on you, you can just stay in the line or even "slow" > down. They don't pass on the outside. Again where's the challenge??? > I hope N3 really gets a facelift and an AI improvement. I look forward in > purchasing another Papy sim..; )

...and they are completely blind in the pits. Just 20 minutes ago one of the guys followed me into the pits at Talladega (he was smoking, I needed tires) and smashed into my back. Oh, and I put in all the patches... l8er ronny -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Hey Julian. Don't really understand this statement. I think the AI in N2 is better because of this because they will make you back off. If they AI goes high and gives me the line every time I sneeze near him, then I would rather just drive by myself. I like the idea that the AI will fight me for the position and If don't get "really" under him, I better back out and follow. I like it better. There are other weaknesses in the AI but I wanted to address this one in paticular. Brian

>> NASCAR 2 has good AIs?? Hmm.. I really don't think so. The AIs are the >"dumbest" >> I have ever seen from Papy... If the N2 AIs are so good, then why the AI

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>> updates?? >> The AIs in N2 are blind!! Especially when you are underneath them.. >> GP2 on the other hand, they have "brains".. >> Ciao >> Julian Data >R: >Relative to the rest of the racing market their extrodinary. Is it

perfect? >No. Is it better than almost anything? Yes. >Q.B.M. Agreed. Try...say around 112% (+) difficulty. Then let me know how 'dumb' the AI is. Unlike N1...they don't just get faster...cheers...d.

Death) writes: >>Relative to the rest of the racing market their extrodinary. Is it perfect? >>No. Is it better than almost anything? Yes. >N2 AI is FAR from perfect. Set the ai 101% or greater and try to pass >them. They will always cut down on you if any part of their car is >still visible through the right side of your windshield. It's really >pathetic if you ask me. <snip>.........kinda sounds like RACING to me. cheers...d.

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>Death) writes: >>>Relative to the rest of the racing market their extrodinary. Is it >perfect? >>>No. Is it better than almost anything? Yes. >>N2 AI is FAR from perfect. Set the ai 101% or greater and try to pass >>them. They will always cut down on you if any part of their car is >>still visible through the right side of your windshield. It's really >>pathetic if you ask me. ><snip>.........kinda sounds like RACING to me. cheers...d.

Rarely does any real racer come down on you when you are half way alongside him (coughJeffGordonahemahg). All the AI cars in N2 do this. Kill, The Black DEATH

NASCAR 2 AI: R: I still stand by my words. You guys aren't taking the whole racing genre in scope as I said above. Heck yes there is room for improvement, a lot. But still it beats the medium for racing AI in this industry. So what is the consensus for the best AI add on's? Thanks. Q.B.M.

: Well, anytime you'd care to give us an idea we're all ears (just be : sure to wipe your chin first of all!) :) Or perhaps Papy would like : to hire a Marketing guru to help them with the analysis, development : and promotion of these drool-inducing beauties? : Worth a try.... ;-) : Cheers! : John John, nice of you to offer yourself up, if you need any help... :) Chuck

The only good AI is when they drop the A. Racing over modem or network can't be beat. NFS SE had 8 player over a network. CPR will also have 8 people over a network. Too bad they didn't make Hawaii for ICR2 (like all of the ads said they were going to). -- -------------------------------------

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>Are they N2 AIs perfect than other sims, if you are comparing them to GP2 or >even SODA?? HAH! NOPE! Don't get my wrong, I love Papy sims. Yet the AI still >need some improvements. They still race they way did in N1. They don't challenge >you. When you pass them, they just "drop back". >So where's the competition with the AIs?? Is it just a pass and that is it? Or >when they try to come up on you, you can just stay in the line or even "slow" >down. They don't pass on the outside. Again where's the challenge???

Have you tried TPTCC Julian? The AI that The Pits guys have created is _very_ challenging. They will pass you on the inside or outside, and just plane run over you if they have to. That tells me that Papyrus has done a good job with the AI, but they have disabled it or made it less aggresive. I assume this is controlled with the track.txt files. Papyrus should provide an option to have rookie/amatuer/pro AI opponents. -- Pat Dotson

Hate to tell you this, but if you're crashing with the AI then the chances are it's your fault <g> Why should the AI let you through? Rarely do any real racers assume that the guy they are passing will roll over & let them through when they are not already ahead! Take your time, be 100% sure that you are holding your line (review any crashes via the replays and be _very_ critical of your own line holding), try passing the AI coming out of the corners rather than entering them, even try passing round the outside and, above all, PASS SLOWLY <vbg> The N2 AI are a little thick at times but their racing isn't half as bad as many would make out. As long as you are patient and take into consideration that they won't give way just because you want them to, there is little excuse for racing wrecks. You'll still get caught up in someone elses wreck from time to time of course <g> Cheers, Richard

Oh I always need help - do you know how 128Mb DRAM and Micron's 64Mb development will influence the DRAM market in coming months? My boss expects me to - I'd rather apply myself for something more rewarding, like GPL or N3 :) Cheers! John

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>>Rarely does any real racer come down on you when you are half way >>alongside him (coughJeffGordonahemahg). All the AI cars in N2 do >>this. >Hate to tell you this, but if you're crashing with the AI then the >chances are it's your fault <g> Why should the AI let you through? Rarely >do any real racers assume that the guy they are passing will roll over & >let them through when they are not already ahead!

I did not say that real racers would just roll over. I was saying that they would give the guy on the inside racing room. I would be perfectly "happy" if the AI would race me *** the outside. Unfortunately, if you can get them to stay in the high line, they don't generally show much interest in racing hard. Of course, some wrecks are a result my imperfect line-holding. Many are not. I really think I should be allowed to pass entering the corner. Rarely can I get such a run off the corner as to have the pass done by the end of the straight. Have a nice day, Unholy

But it's a two way thing. In real life WC, they won't try and take the inside unless they can clearly do so - so the guy on the outside knows that it is OK to give way because the other guy has been fair. If someone new came along and dived down the inside all the time then the others would make sure that he never finished a race until he learnt otherwise ;-) But AI that good are a long way off, so the options are to either make them too easy or to make them cut you off if you haven't clearly got the position. The latter is the better solution, IMHO, provided that they are consistent enough about it. Agreed, that is a problem. I thought so too, but it is now something like 4 50% races in a row since I've been involved in a wreck. Interestingly since trying _really_ hard to be careful myself the AI as a whole have been less likely to wreck themselves <g> I've gone 50% races at Bristol, the Glen, etc without damaging the sheet metal, so it can be done. (of course we can all guess what will happen in my next race now <vbg>) Depends on the track of course. At C***te for instance, there is absolutely no reason to _ever_ pass into the corners since it is much easier and safer to pass out of them. At Phoenix, though, you do have to pass into the corners, but you must get as near level as the AI as possible first - and be ready to back off and wait if not. At Bristol a different technique still; just sit there below them until they get loose out of a corner, even if it takes several laps - and pass high if they try blocking the low line which some of the AI will do. Cheers, Richard

% >I did not say that real racers would just roll over. I was saying % >that they would give the guy on the inside racing room. % But it's a two way thing. In real life WC, they won't try and take the % inside unless they can clearly do so - so the guy on the outside knows % that it is OK to give way because the other guy has been fair. If someone % new came along and dived down the inside all the time then the others % would make sure that he never finished a race until he learnt otherwise % ;-) % But AI that good are a long way off, so the options are to either make % them too easy or to make them cut you off if you haven't clearly got the % position. The latter is the better solution, IMHO, provided that they are % consistent enough about it. First (in order to be true to the subject line): The early reports I've heard about the AI in CART PR is that there is NONE! With that said, I am not so sure that AI that good is not that long away. I (along with a couple others) have been delving deep into the AI in N2. It appears that Papyrus provided alot of good things in their AI engine, but blew it with the instructions to the AI. We are working on providing better instructions. For a very good example of what I am referring to, try the Marinsville AI enhancement at http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver/utilitie.htm [address restored] This is enhancement is a "early" version. Since then, I think we have learned quite alot more about the interactions between the "instructions" and the AI engine in NASCAR2. Hopefully we will be able to produce even better results at other tracks. We are currently working on Michigan, Darlington, and Bristol with C***te cued up for the next challenge. <snip> % Depends on the track of course. At C***te for instance, there is % absolutely no reason to _ever_ pass into the corners since it is much % easier and safer to pass out of them. At Phoenix, though, you do have to % pass into the corners, but you must get as near level as the AI as % possible first - and be ready to back off and wait if not. At Bristol a % different technique still; just sit there below them until they get loose % out of a corner, even if it takes several laps - and pass high if they % try blocking the low line which some of the AI will do. And this is a prime example of the poor instructions Papy gave their AI. They just go to sleep on the front stretch at C***te. The opposite is true at Michigan, where they go to sleep attacking the corners. Very unrealistic in my humble opinion. These are just a few of the issues we are addressing with our N2 AI project. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

And, I might add, things are looking good on Michael and crew's new AI updates... you guys will enjoy. Would love to tell more, but my lips are sealed... Andre