Who said slicks don't squeal?

Im just sittin here minding my own business watching the Busch qualifying when the #9 Yahoo car loses it and spins. I CLEARLY heard the tires SQUEAL. Not sure how you guys can argue that slicks don't squeal as I just heard it loud and clear. Make any excuse you want to convince yourself but youre just plain wrong as slicks obviously make a squealing noise when pushed beyond the limit... Mitch

That wasn't the argument. The argument was about whether slicks squeal *before* they lose grip. And according to several people with real life racing experience who added their commentary, they don't. "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9oRoc.48088$[email hidden]... > Im just sittin here minding my own business watching the Busch qualifying > when the #9 Yahoo car loses it and spins. I CLEARLY heard the tiresSQUEAL. > Not sure how you guys can argue that slicks don't squeal as I just heardit

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> loud and clear. Make any excuse you want to convince yourself but youre > just plain wrong as slicks obviously make a squealing noise when pushed > beyond the limit... > > Mitch > >

"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:9oRoc.48088$[email hidden]:

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> Im just sittin here minding my own business watching the Busch > qualifying when the #9 Yahoo car loses it and spins. I CLEARLY heard > the tires SQUEAL. Not sure how you guys can argue that slicks don't > squeal as I just heard it loud and clear. Make any excuse you want to > convince yourself but youre just plain wrong as slicks obviously make > a squealing noise when pushed beyond the limit... > > Mitch > > >

Who said slicks don't squeal? John

"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > That wasn't the argument. The argument was about whether slicks squeal > *before* they lose grip. And according to several people with real life > racing experience who added their commentary, they don't. > I agree with whomever said that. Slicks squeal usually at two times, when they begin to lose traction and in the case of a burnout in any drag racing series (IHRA/NHRA et al) they also squeal the second they stop spinning from their burnout to heat them up, right as they catch traction. Usually the noise made by a slick at or near its "limit" is more of a rub or grinding sound in my experience. NOW, ALL THAT SAID, if the original poster was talking about Busch Q for the upcoming event at Richmond, then yes, those tires WILL squeal when they slip from traction this week, there's brand new pavement and more importantly, squeal friendly sealer down up there this week. So not only will you hear squealing from the tires this week as they spin out, but that lovely putrid yellow smoke should make its return as well.

Correction; several people with real life experience(I don't even recall seeing this, but whatever) in a series besides the one mentioned by Mitch, added, etc., etc. At the same time, it was about before losing it. Of course, at the track, you would have heard the noise before it lost it too, along with every other car. Haqsau <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> That wasn't the argument. The argument was about whether slicks squeal > *before* they lose grip. And according to several people with real life > racing experience who added their commentary, they don't. > > > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9oRoc.48088$[email hidden]... > > Im just sittin here minding my own business watching the Busch

qualifying

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> > when the #9 Yahoo car loses it and spins. I CLEARLY heard the tires > SQUEAL. > > Not sure how you guys can argue that slicks don't squeal as I just heard > it > > loud and clear. Make any excuse you want to convince yourself but youre > > just plain wrong as slicks obviously make a squealing noise when pushed > > beyond the limit... > > > > Mitch > > > > > >

That's right, I heard F1 tires squeal. You normally don't hear it because of the engine noise. "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9oRoc.48088$[email hidden]... > Im just sittin here minding my own business watching the Busch qualifying > when the #9 Yahoo car loses it and spins. I CLEARLY heard the tiresSQUEAL. > Not sure how you guys can argue that slicks don't squeal as I just heardit

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> loud and clear. Make any excuse you want to convince yourself but youre > just plain wrong as slicks obviously make a squealing noise when pushed > beyond the limit... > > Mitch > >

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>From: "Mitch_A" [email hidden] >Date: 5/13/2004 4:03 PM Central Daylight Time >Message-id: <9oRoc.48088$[email hidden]> > >Im just sittin here minding my own business watching the Busch qualifying >when the #9 Yahoo car loses it and spins. I CLEARLY heard the tires SQUEAL. >Not sure how you guys can argue that slicks don't squeal as I just heard it >loud and clear. Make any excuse you want to convince yourself but youre >just plain wrong as slicks obviously make a squealing noise when pushed >beyond the limit... > >Mitch > >

Last year at the Indy 500 a car spun and crashed into the wall right in front of us. The reason everyone turned, gasped, and stood up was because of the very loud tire squealing :-D Todd Wasson Racing Software http://PerformanceSimulations.com http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

On Thu, 13 May 2004 21:03:01 GMT, "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Im just sittin here minding my own business watching the Busch qualifying >when the #9 Yahoo car loses it and spins. I CLEARLY heard the tires SQUEAL. >Not sure how you guys can argue that slicks don't squeal as I just heard it >loud and clear. Make any excuse you want to convince yourself but youre >just plain wrong as slicks obviously make a squealing noise when pushed >beyond the limit... > >Mitch >

OK, just to clear this up. I race slick-shod cars regularly, and instruct in them often, have done so for lots of years .. A slick tyre does NOT squeal under NORMAL HARD CORNERING, even at excessive slip-angles BUT .. DOES if a) Locked up or b) if WHEEL-SPINNING excessivly or c) Totally out of control and sliding SIDEWAYS EXCESSIVELY. You do get a "very" faint SQUAL (a bit like rubbing your finger over leather) at hi slip angles (but still not out of control) but only really when cold. Spectators can'tr hear it and you can't really hear it in your helmet or if loud engine noise It's the movement of the tyres tread that causes the distinctive tyre squeal you get in say GPL. Some road tyres will squeal at very low slip-angles. Maxx

Mitch_A wrote: > ...slicks ...make a squealing noise when pushed > beyond the limit... I think the original discussion years back was rather whether they squeal as loud and as early as they do in Papy's sims. Then the argument changed, as usually I'm tempted to say, as the discussion went on. Like the discussion about braking and being on the throttle at the same time, where loads of people said you couldn't do it for various reasons (because it ruined the brakes or whatever), then Schumacher's telemetry proved that he does it all the time and all of a sudden everybody had always exclusively claimed that you couldn't have done it in GPL cars - or something like that <g> Anyway, we need exaggerated and premature tire squeal in sims, no matter whether the real tires do it, simply to make up some for the seat of pants feeling we don't have in sims. Achim

Well, I know a guy who can do 2:11s in the GTR demo without corner cutting and without amplifying the tyre sounds. Excess tyre squealing should only be available as a driver aid if at all.

On Fri, 14 May 2004 20:54:36 +1000, "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Well, I know a guy who can do 2:11s in the GTR demo without corner cutting >and without amplifying the tyre sounds. Excess tyre squealing should only >be available as a driver aid if at all. From what I understand, Simbin has said that the tire sounds are a bug in the demo and will be normal (i.e. like GTR 2002) in the final release. And uh, has anyone come up with a logical reason why slicks wouldn't make scrubbing sounds before you've gone past the limit but grooved tires do (as I'd assume anyone who has driven a street car would know)? The in-car trans am stuff I've seen definitely has audible tire sounds when the driver is nearing the limit of traction. Jason

>It's the movement of the tyres tread that causes the distinctive >tyre squeal you get in say GPL. Some road tyres will squeal at >very low slip-angles. > >Maxx > Maxx! Welcome back! Glad to hear from you again. Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

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> OK, just to clear this up. I race slick-shod cars regularly, and > instruct in them often, have done so for lots of years .. > > A slick tyre does NOT squeal under NORMAL HARD CORNERING, > even at excessive slip-angles BUT .. DOES if a) Locked up or b) > if WHEEL-SPINNING excessivly or c) Totally out of control and > sliding SIDEWAYS EXCESSIVELY. > > You do get a "very" faint SQUAL (a bit like rubbing your finger > over leather) at hi slip angles (but still not out of control) but > only really when cold. Spectators can'tr hear it and you can't > really hear it in your helmet or if loud engine noise > > It's the movement of the tyres tread that causes the distinctive > tyre squeal you get in say GPL. Some road tyres will squeal at > very low slip-angles. > > Maxx >

I have also ran slicks and found that the racing surface also will change the usual "growl" sound when cornering hard to more of a squeal. I ran an RX-4 back in the '70s in SCCA racing and regularly shod it with slicks. It literally pushed like a dump-truck with the stock suspension and I had very loud squealing with that sucker on any hard turn slicks or not. Today, with the advent of racing radials, they do not tend to make as much noise until they break loose. With the old belted slicks, sometimes you hated to NOT hear something because that usually meant that you were down to the belts....:-). I guess what I am saying is that there are too many variables to say they squeal or don't squeal........:-). The car, track surface and even the brand and composition of the tire make a difference. All the tall, narrow tires that we ran in SCCA back in the 1960s were extremely noisy. Ed --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.686 / Virus Database: 447 - Release Date: 5/14/2004

Damien Evans wrote: > Well, I know a guy who can do 2:11s in the GTR demo > without corner cutting and without amplifying the tyre sounds. Impressive :) Achim

"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Fri, 14 May 2004 20:54:36 +1000, "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Well, I know a guy who can do 2:11s in the GTR demo without cornercutting > >and without amplifying the tyre sounds. Excess tyre squealing shouldonly

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> >be available as a driver aid if at all. > > From what I understand, Simbin has said that the tire sounds are a bug > in the demo and will be normal (i.e. like GTR 2002) in the final > release. > > And uh, has anyone come up with a logical reason why slicks wouldn't > make scrubbing sounds before you've gone past the limit but grooved > tires do (as I'd assume anyone who has driven a street car would > know)? The in-car trans am stuff I've seen definitely has audible > tire sounds when the driver is nearing the limit of traction. >

There are a number of variables for tweaking the tires sounds in GTR, and I rendered the point moot for myself by simply raising the scrub and skid volume levels very slightly. Did it too much at first and kept dialing it back until it was just audible. Might not need to do it with FF, but without, getting a hint on what's happening with the tires is important when the sim models tire wear. It still doesn't seem to convey the nuances of NR2003's tire sounds at present, but that could well change in later builds. The scrub sound is the more important of the two, as once you're in skid mode it's too late to be worrying about tire wear - the Armco is suddenly more important... ;-)

Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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> Mitch_A wrote: > > > ...slicks ...make a squealing noise when pushed > > beyond the limit... > > I think the original discussion years back was rather whether they > squeal as loud and as early as they do in Papy's sims. > > Then the argument changed, as usually I'm tempted to say, as the > discussion went on. Like the discussion about braking and being on the > throttle at the same time, where loads of people said you couldn't do it > for various reasons (because it ruined the brakes or whatever), then > Schumacher's telemetry proved that he does it all the time and all of a > sudden everybody had always exclusively claimed that you couldn't have > done it in GPL cars - or something like that <g> > > Anyway, we need exaggerated and premature tire squeal in sims, no matter > whether the real tires do it, simply to make up some for the seat of > pants feeling we don't have in sims. > > Achim

AMEN, Achim! Well-said! Until real, physical application of G-forces becomes a "driving aid" that can be enabled or disabled, we NEED audio feedback from the tyres to tell us what's going on in a racing sim. Lose the audible tyre feedback and you're heading dangerously close to the "arcade" realm, IMO. -- JB

"Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > Well, I know a guy who can do 2:11s in the GTR demo without corner cutting > and without amplifying the tyre sounds. Excess tyre squealing should only > be available as a driver aid if at all. Once realistic G-forces are available to me as a "driving aid," I'll agree with your statement about excess tyre squealing. And I disagree that existing sims (like those from Papy) have "excessive" tyre squeal -- it's just brought to the forefront to serve as fill-in for the missing physical sensations. In a static, 2D representation of a 3D activity, you have to find other ways to convey the actions that are usually detected by other sensory perceptions; in a fixed PC-based racing sim with no motion platform, all you have are auditory and visual perception cues, and you have to use these methods to fill in for the missing tactile and dimensional impressions you get from your inner ear and the seat of your pants (or your solar plexus, if you want to be pedantic). Maybe the guy who can do 2:11s is just very good with arcade racers, perhaps, so he's able to make-do in GTR because he's not used to getting ALL the necessary feedback cues . . . ;-) -- JB

"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > That wasn't the argument. The argument was about whether slicks squeal > *before* they lose grip. And according to several people with real life > racing experience who added their commentary, they don't. > > But aren't these the people that are so stupid that they can't even work out that puting air in the rears will make the car turn better? How could they possibly hear any tire squeal over all the metal rims grinding on the track?

"Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Mitch_A wrote: > > Anyway, we need exaggerated and premature tire squeal in sims, no matter > whether the real tires do it, simply to make up some for the seat of > pants feeling we don't have in sims. > > Achim

Perfect. :) Saved me a post.

On Fri, 14 May 2004 11:25:05 +0200, Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote: >Anyway, we need exaggerated and premature tire squeal in sims, no matter >whether the real tires do it, simply to make up some for the seat of >pants feeling we don't have in sims. > >Achim Achim, I agree with you on this. You can perhaps get across front-wheel slide feedback solely from really good Force Feedback (as you feel this almost exclusively via the steering wheel), unfortunately there are so many variables here that it rarely seems to provide the correct type of sensation (i.e. steering gets lighter). Rear slide is very, very subtle, even as a seat of the pants sensation and really, we need some audible feedback here to compensate for the lack of physical feedback Eldred : How you doin Buddy, I still read r.a.s. pretty regular and post very occasionally :) Maxx

"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Fri, 14 May 2004 20:54:36 +1000, "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> > wrote: The in-car trans am stuff I've seen definitely has audible > tire sounds when the driver is nearing the limit of traction. Likewise, I've heard Champ Cars have a slight squeal/chatter on the concrete apex patches at Mid-Ohio, esp in the slow Carousel. -jde

The strange thing is, I can hear the scrubbing sounds just fine without turning them up. Sure, they're not loud and if you've got dodgy speakers you probably won't hear them but they're there...

> AMEN, Achim! Well-said! Until real, physical application of G-forces > becomes a "driving aid" that can be enabled or disabled, we NEED audio > feedback from the tyres to tell us what's going on in a racing sim. > Lose the audible tyre feedback and you're heading dangerously close to > the "arcade" realm, IMO. That's one of the strangest things I've read in hear for a while. That's like somebody saying that we should have dumbed down physics in sims to make up for the lack of G-Forces. Maybe I'm just weird, but I feel like I have better feel in GTR than I did in GTR 2002 which had unrealistic screeching as opposed to GTR's subtle (but certainly present) scrubbing sounds.

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> > That wasn't the argument. The argument was about whether slicks squeal > > *before* they lose grip. And according to several people with real life > > racing experience who added their commentary, they don't. > > > > > > But aren't these the people that are so stupid that they can't even

work > out that puting air in the rears will make the car turn better? How could > they possibly hear any tire squeal over all the metal rims grinding on the > track? Er....no. Why would you say that?

Damien Evans wrote: > The strange thing is, I can hear the scrubbing sounds just fine without > turning them up. Sure, they're not loud and if you've got dodgy speakers > you probably won't hear them but they're there... What's audible or not often depends on the characteristics of your speakers or amp/preamp/soundcard hardware. You may indeed hear them well while others don't. Achim

Damien Evans wrote: ... > That's one of the strangest things I've read in hear for a while. That's > like somebody saying that we should have dumbed down physics in sims to make > up for the lack of G-Forces. Maybe I'm just weird, but I feel like I have > better feel in GTR than I did in GTR 2002 which had unrealistic screeching > as opposed to GTR's subtle (but certainly present) scrubbing sounds. If you replace a real life cue which is not present in a simulation with another cue giving your comparable information, that's one way of actually simulating things. It just depends on how it's done. Achim

Agreed. I find it confusing to have a sound in a sim that is not there in real life. But I think that people here are so used to having that noise in Papy sims that it has become a crutch for them. They think they need it, but they don't. Nevertheless I'm glad that in GTR they are allowing the volumes of the noises to be adjusted so that people that want it can have it and people who don't can tune it out. "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > That's one of the strangest things I've read in hear for a while. That's > like somebody saying that we should have dumbed down physics in sims tomake > up for the lack of G-Forces. Maybe I'm just weird, but I feel like I have > better feel in GTR than I did in GTR 2002 which had unrealistic screeching > as opposed to GTR's subtle (but certainly present) scrubbing sounds. > >

That's my point. The sound IS there in real life and Ive heard it, as in my example. Ive tinkered with the scrubbing volume and although it does help its not perfect (very little rear tire feedback). It is a pre-alpha demo so things may be much different in future incarnations. Big difference between dumbed down physics and a little tire noise feedback to know the limit of traction. Mitch "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Agreed. I find it confusing to have a sound in a sim that is not there in > real life. But I think that people here are so used to having that noisein > Papy sims that it has become a crutch for them. They think they need it, > but they don't. Nevertheless I'm glad that in GTR they are allowing the > volumes of the noises to be adjusted so that people that want it can haveit > and people who don't can tune it out. > > "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > That's one of the strangest things I've read in hear for a while.That's > > like somebody saying that we should have dumbed down physics in sims to > make > > up for the lack of G-Forces. Maybe I'm just weird, but I feel like Ihave > > better feel in GTR than I did in GTR 2002 which had unrealisticscreeching > > as opposed to GTR's subtle (but certainly present) scrubbing sounds. > > > > > >

"Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Damien Evans wrote: > > The strange thing is, I can hear the scrubbing sounds just fine without > > turning them up. Sure, they're not loud and if you've got dodgyspeakers > > you probably won't hear them but they're there... > > What's audible or not often depends on the characteristics of your > speakers or amp/preamp/soundcard hardware. You may indeed hear them well > while others don't. > True - using a crap Plantronics headset at the moment to keep from breaking any windows with my normal speakers. Didn't have to turn the tire sounds up much at all; just a bit did the trick.

To repeat my earlier reply to you in this thread, I don't think you and I are talking about the same thing. If I understand you correctly you are talking about squealing that happens after you lose grip, I am talking about the Papy tire squealing that happens slightly before losing grip. With racing slicks on a well conditioned track the former is realistic, the latter is not, and we just had testimony from a racing instructor in this thread verifying that. As long as I can set up GTR so that I don't have to hear tire squeal before losing grip I will be happy, the rest of you can do whatever you want. My opinion is that you can race a whole lot more consistently if you learn to nail your markers and watch your slip angle and ignore the noises, but some people just can't let go of the Papy noises so I guess we will have to have them available in all future driving games for the rest of eternity. "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VTspc.8912$[email hidden]... > That's my point. The sound IS there in real life and Ive heard it, as inmy > example. > > Ive tinkered with the scrubbing volume and although it does help its not > perfect (very little rear tire feedback). It is a pre-alpha demo sothings > may be much different in future incarnations. > > Big difference between dumbed down physics and a little tire noisefeedback > to know the limit of traction. > > Mitch >

I must say that I agree with you 100% here. Just because there is absolutely no way known to man that seat of the pants forces can be simulated by a sim, that is no excuse to trade this for a bit of exaggerated tyre squeal. It's just childish! And whilst on things of a confusing nature, I must say Haqsau, that I'm utterly bewildered that Papy haven't been consulting you on this stuff for years! Imagine how embarrassed they must be now. And the blunder they made with higher pressures in the rear actually making a car turn more. Talk about egg all over their faces! I've said they're a bunch of bloody fools right from the beginning! Ask anyone! KerPlonk! "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > To repeat my earlier reply to you in this thread, I don't think you and I > are talking about the same thing. If I understand you correctly you are > talking about squealing that happens after you lose grip, I am talkingabout > the Papy tire squealing that happens slightly before losing grip. With > racing slicks on a well conditioned track the former is realistic, the > latter is not, and we just had testimony from a racing instructor in this > thread verifying that. As long as I can set up GTR so that I don't haveto > hear tire squeal before losing grip I will be happy, the rest of you cando > whatever you want. My opinion is that you can race a whole lot more > consistently if you learn to nail your markers and watch your slip angleand > ignore the noises, but some people just can't let go of the Papy noises soI > guess we will have to have them available in all future driving games for > the rest of eternity. >

Haqsau had previously been saying that "real life" racers told him that they take air out of the rears to make their cars turn better. No one had ever heard of them and it's no wonder. :) If he's now refering to others that happen to have a clue - full apologies. "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > That wasn't the argument. The argument was about whether slickssqueal > > > *before* they lose grip. And according to several people with reallife

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> > > racing experience who added their commentary, they don't. > > > > > > > > > > But aren't these the people that are so stupid that they can't even > work > > out that puting air in the rears will make the car turn better? How

could > > they possibly hear any tire squeal over all the metal rims grinding onthe > > track? > > Er....no. Why would you say that? > >

Haqsau wrote: ... > ...learn to nail your markers and watch your slip angle and > ignore the noises That's what the noises are for - to indicate slip angle and magnitude of slip before they become visually determinable; a job in a real car done by the seat of pants feeling which is unavailable in sims. This is hence a valid and useful means of simulating the real thing. Tire noises change all the time btw, even before they lose grip, with every change of slip angle or slip magnitude. Even when you corner at moderate speeds, the tire's rolling noise changes, you just usually don't hear it inside the car. Achim

That's not what I said at all. I was talking about the effect of tire pressure on oversteer and understeer only, the rest of the conversation was all your misinterpretation of what I said. The effects of tire pressure are well known and well documented and I provided you with a large number of links that proved it, which you chose to ignore. Apparently you think that because you are fast in GPL that somehow means you know something about vehicle dynamics. It doesn't and you don't. Go read a book or two, or better yet take some classes. Right now you don't even know what you don't know. "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:40a6ee05$0$31679$[email hidden]... > Haqsau had previously been saying that "real life" racers told himthat > they take air out of the rears to make their cars turn better. No one had > ever heard of them and it's no wonder. :) If he's now refering to others > that happen to have a clue - full apologies. >

KerPlonk? Are you killfiling me? Oh god I hope so. "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:40a6eb6f$0$3038$[email hidden]... > I must say that I agree with you 100% here. Just because there is > absolutely no way known to man that seat of the pants forces can be > simulated by a sim, that is no excuse to trade this for a bit ofexaggerated > tyre squeal. It's just childish! > > And whilst on things of a confusing nature, I must say Haqsau, thatI'm

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> utterly bewildered that Papy haven't been consulting you on this stuff for > years! Imagine how embarrassed they must be now. And the blunder they made > with higher pressures in the rear actually making a car turn more. Talk > about egg all over their faces! I've said they're a bunch of bloody fools > right from the beginning! Ask anyone! > > KerPlonk! >

I don't buy the "seat of the pants" argument that everybody is falling back on. Or maybe I just don't understand the point correctly. But I don't believe that anyone can know the difference between 1.2 G and 1.3 G by seat of the pants feel. Yet that's what the argument seems to be, that you can tell by feel when you are nearing the limit. I disagree. I don't believe that anybody has sufficient sensitivity to be able to tell when they are pulling just the right amount of lateral force. In hundreds of laps in karts I have never experienced that. I can tell by feel when I go *over* the limit, and I can tell by feel if there is a sudden change in slip angle, but these are both things that I can also tell without the seat of the pants feel. Any good sim pilot will tell you that the first thing you have to learn is the difference between the direction you appear to be going and the direction you are actually going. That's something I learned back in the 80s when graphics and audio cues were poor and there weren't any force feedback devices available at a consumer level, flying based on visual feedback alone. In our case that translates to yaw angle, and visual information is all you need to determine it. Try it. Turn the tire sounds off and try a few laps. I don't think anybody here has, they would rather just argue about it. I'm saying that with the *right attention* to visual cues and to steering sensitivity one doesn't need any tire noises. I must also repeat that I do believe people should have the choice to turn them on or off. You can turn them on if you want but I don't want any game that forces them on. If one is used to how a real car sounds, and used to not pushing the car to the point of tire squeal, it is too confusing to go back and forth between the two. I like to race karts in real life. I don't like having to mentally change gears when going back and forth between karts and sims. If you hear tire squeal in a kart you just blew your lap. So one ends up either not pushing hard enough in the sim or pushing too hard in real life. It's much easier (for me) to just turn the tire noises off and drive both sims and real life the same way. "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > That's what the noises are for - to indicate slip angle and magnitude of > slip before they become visually determinable; a job in a real car done > by the seat of pants feeling which is unavailable in sims. > > This is hence a valid and useful means of simulating the real thing. > > Tire noises change all the time btw, even before they lose grip, with > every change of slip angle or slip magnitude. Even when you corner at > moderate speeds, the tire's rolling noise changes, you just usually > don't hear it inside the car. > > Achim

Haqsau wrote: > I don't buy the "seat of the pants" argument I see what you're getting at and you have a point. Still, call it seat of pants or whatever else, there's more situational awareness in a real car than there is in a sim, and the tire squeal can make up for for this to an extent. But I agree, it should be optional. It _is_ btw optional in Papy's sims. You can modify its volume in the Options and in one of the inis (I forget where exactly, but there's a parameter which allows you to tweak this). Achim

I know I can do that in NR2003, but is it possible in GPL also? I thought the only way to change it in GPL was to change the wav file. "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > It _is_ btw optional in Papy's sims. You can modify its volume in the > Options and in one of the inis (I forget where exactly, but there's a > parameter which allows you to tweak this). > > Achim

Well, in order for me to rise to the godlike level of your sim racing abilities, could you please explain to me -- in great detail -- how I can "watch my slip angle" without the proper seat-of-the-pants physical cues, and with nothing to provide some replacement indication? I already know how to nail my markers, so that part is no problem, but I wish to aspire to your Jedi-like level of greatness. I seek enlightenment, and apparently you are one of the enlightened. Of course, there's always a chance that by making do without some replacement cues (such as slightly amplified tyre sounds to give you info on slip angles) to replace the missing physical cues, maybe you have been able to achieve your harmonious zen state with the physics engine by adopting the mystical "damn-it-to-hell-I'm racing" method often used by arcade racers. Still, though, if that IS the pathway to sim racing enlightenment, I will walk that path with you, O Great Master -- and if depriving myself of physical sensations (and also sound cues to replace those missing physical sensations) will help me achieve greater enlightenment, then perhaps I should also unplug my speakers altogether to help me reach an even HIGHER plane than what you have already achieved. While I'm back there, I may also try disconnecting my monitor, and perhaps my wheel and pedals, too -- why would I need even those paltry visual cues or controller inputs to serve as crutches, when my ultimate goal is sim racing enlightenment? In real racing -- or even when driving a real car -- you don't have an electronic controller attached to a USB port, and there is no monitor filled with pixels being excited by electron bombardment (or diode switching, depending on your monitor type), so why do we rely on these things to enhance our sim racing experience when all they do is take you further away from what you get with the REAL driving experience? I weep openly here as I type, finally seeing the sim racing truth for what it is, for you have opened my eyes and enlightened me, O Great One. I bow down before you, and I will smote my ears if I ever hear an unrealistic tyre squeal again. Thank you. Thank you so very much. I pray that all sim racers experience similar enlightenment. I will now go climb into my car, turn the key, and drive, for as you have shown me, there is no reality in racing simulations, so the pursuit is ultimately fruitless and unrewarding due to its inherent lack of realism on all counts. At last, I have discovered your secret, O Great Master, because for you and your kind, the true sim racing experience can ony be achieved via a petroleum-powered conveyance with four tyres and wheels, and -- oh the cosmic joke of it all -- for you and your kind, "GTR" must truly mean "Go Try Reality." Somewhere the patron saint of reality must surely be smiling. -- JB "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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> To repeat my earlier reply to you in this thread, I don't think you and I > are talking about the same thing. If I understand you correctly you are > talking about squealing that happens after you lose grip, I am talking about > the Papy tire squealing that happens slightly before losing grip. With > racing slicks on a well conditioned track the former is realistic, the > latter is not, and we just had testimony from a racing instructor in this > thread verifying that. As long as I can set up GTR so that I don't have to > hear tire squeal before losing grip I will be happy, the rest of you can do > whatever you want. My opinion is that you can race a whole lot more > consistently if you learn to nail your markers and watch your slip angle and > ignore the noises, but some people just can't let go of the Papy noises so I > guess we will have to have them available in all future driving games for > the rest of eternity. > > > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:VTspc.8912$[email hidden]... > > That's my point. The sound IS there in real life and Ive heard it, as in > my > > example. > > > > Ive tinkered with the scrubbing volume and although it does help its not > > perfect (very little rear tire feedback). It is a pre-alpha demo so > things > > may be much different in future incarnations. > > > > Big difference between dumbed down physics and a little tire noise > feedback > > to know the limit of traction. > > > > Mitch > >

> for you and your kind, "GTR" must truly mean "Go Try Reality." > > Somewhere the patron saint of reality must surely be smiling. > > -- JB Funny! Nice one, JB! Mark Davison v8thunder.com

Please tell me this is somebody impersonating John Bodin. I cannot believe the real John Bodin would post utter crap like this. If this is the real John Bodin, I suggest that in the future you wait until evening to start drinking so heavily. "jbodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Well, in order for me to rise to the godlike level of your sim racing > abilities, could you please explain to me -- in great detail -- how I > can "watch my slip angle" without the proper seat-of-the-pants > physical cues, and with nothing to provide some replacement > indication? I already know how to nail my markers, so that part is no > problem, but I wish to aspire to your Jedi-like level of greatness. I > seek enlightenment, and apparently you are one of the enlightened. > > Of course, there's always a chance that by making do without some > replacement cues (such as slightly amplified tyre sounds to give you > info on slip angles) to replace the missing physical cues, maybe you > have been able to achieve your harmonious zen state with the physics > engine by adopting the mystical "damn-it-to-hell-I'm racing" method > often used by arcade racers. > > Still, though, if that IS the pathway to sim racing enlightenment, I > will walk that path with you, O Great Master -- and if depriving > myself of physical sensations (and also sound cues to replace those > missing physical sensations) will help me achieve greater > enlightenment, then perhaps I should also unplug my speakers > altogether to help me reach an even HIGHER plane than what you have > already achieved. While I'm back there, I may also try disconnecting > my monitor, and perhaps my wheel and pedals, too -- why would I need > even those paltry visual cues or controller inputs to serve as > crutches, when my ultimate goal is sim racing enlightenment? In real > racing -- or even when driving a real car -- you don't have an > electronic controller attached to a USB port, and there is no monitor > filled with pixels being excited by electron bombardment (or diode > switching, depending on your monitor type), so why do we rely on these > things to enhance our sim racing experience when all they do is take > you further away from what you get with the REAL driving experience? > > I weep openly here as I type, finally seeing the sim racing truth for > what it is, for you have opened my eyes and enlightened me, O Great > One. > > I bow down before you, and I will smote my ears if I ever hear an > unrealistic tyre squeal again. > > Thank you. Thank you so very much. > > I pray that all sim racers experience similar enlightenment. > > I will now go climb into my car, turn the key, and drive, for as you > have shown me, there is no reality in racing simulations, so the > pursuit is ultimately fruitless and unrewarding due to its inherent > lack of realism on all counts. At last, I have discovered your > secret, O Great Master, because for you and your kind, the true sim > racing experience can ony be achieved via a petroleum-powered > conveyance with four tyres and wheels, and -- oh the cosmic joke of it > all -- for you and your kind, "GTR" must truly mean "Go Try Reality." > > Somewhere the patron saint of reality must surely be smiling. > > -- JB >

I took it as a joke, albeit at your expense Hal. Surely not worth a flame war or personal attacks. This will just have to be one of those "we agree to disagree" situations :) Most here (myself included) want realism. Some things just cannot be simulated on a PC and this is one of those things. To make up for that lack of realism we need a way to simulate what you feel/hear/see in real life. Sound ques IMO fit the bill at the expense of a bit of reality. We all think it should be user adjustable though so we do agree on the important aspect of this discussion :). Squealing is the wrong term. I should be using "scrubbing" as the descriptive word. Mitch "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Please tell me this is somebody impersonating John Bodin. I cannotbelieve > the real John Bodin would post utter crap like this. If this is the real > John Bodin, I suggest that in the future you wait until evening to start > drinking so heavily. > >

"jbodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Well, in order for me to rise to the godlike level of your sim racing > abilities, could you please explain to me -- in great detail -- how I > can "watch my slip angle" without the proper seat-of-the-pants > physical cues, and with nothing to provide some replacement > indication? I already know how to nail my markers, so that part is no > problem, but I wish to aspire to your Jedi-like level of greatness. I > seek enlightenment, and apparently you are one of the enlightened. > > Of course, there's always a chance that by making do without some > replacement cues (such as slightly amplified tyre sounds to give you > info on slip angles) to replace the missing physical cues, maybe you > have been able to achieve your harmonious zen state with the physics > engine by adopting the mystical "damn-it-to-hell-I'm racing" method > often used by arcade racers. > > Still, though, if that IS the pathway to sim racing enlightenment, I > will walk that path with you, O Great Master -- and if depriving > myself of physical sensations (and also sound cues to replace those > missing physical sensations) will help me achieve greater > enlightenment, then perhaps I should also unplug my speakers > altogether to help me reach an even HIGHER plane than what you have > already achieved. While I'm back there, I may also try disconnecting > my monitor, and perhaps my wheel and pedals, too -- why would I need > even those paltry visual cues or controller inputs to serve as > crutches, when my ultimate goal is sim racing enlightenment? In real > racing -- or even when driving a real car -- you don't have an > electronic controller attached to a USB port, and there is no monitor > filled with pixels being excited by electron bombardment (or diode > switching, depending on your monitor type), so why do we rely on these > things to enhance our sim racing experience when all they do is take > you further away from what you get with the REAL driving experience? > > I weep openly here as I type, finally seeing the sim racing truth for > what it is, for you have opened my eyes and enlightened me, O Great > One. > > I bow down before you, and I will smote my ears if I ever hear an > unrealistic tyre squeal again. > > Thank you. Thank you so very much. > > I pray that all sim racers experience similar enlightenment. > > I will now go climb into my car, turn the key, and drive, for as you > have shown me, there is no reality in racing simulations, so the > pursuit is ultimately fruitless and unrewarding due to its inherent > lack of realism on all counts. At last, I have discovered your > secret, O Great Master, because for you and your kind, the true sim > racing experience can ony be achieved via a petroleum-powered > conveyance with four tyres and wheels, and -- oh the cosmic joke of it > all -- for you and your kind, "GTR" must truly mean "Go Try Reality." > > Somewhere the patron saint of reality must surely be smiling. > > -- JB

LOL. Great Stuff. Elrikk

Lol, good one. jbodin <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Well, in order for me to rise to the godlike level of your sim racing > abilities, could you please explain to me -- in great detail -- how I > can "watch my slip angle" without the proper seat-of-the-pants > physical cues, and with nothing to provide some replacement > indication? I already know how to nail my markers, so that part is no > problem, but I wish to aspire to your Jedi-like level of greatness. I > seek enlightenment, and apparently you are one of the enlightened. > > Of course, there's always a chance that by making do without some > replacement cues (such as slightly amplified tyre sounds to give you > info on slip angles) to replace the missing physical cues, maybe you > have been able to achieve your harmonious zen state with the physics > engine by adopting the mystical "damn-it-to-hell-I'm racing" method > often used by arcade racers. > > Still, though, if that IS the pathway to sim racing enlightenment, I > will walk that path with you, O Great Master -- and if depriving > myself of physical sensations (and also sound cues to replace those > missing physical sensations) will help me achieve greater > enlightenment, then perhaps I should also unplug my speakers > altogether to help me reach an even HIGHER plane than what you have > already achieved. While I'm back there, I may also try disconnecting > my monitor, and perhaps my wheel and pedals, too -- why would I need > even those paltry visual cues or controller inputs to serve as > crutches, when my ultimate goal is sim racing enlightenment? In real > racing -- or even when driving a real car -- you don't have an > electronic controller attached to a USB port, and there is no monitor > filled with pixels being excited by electron bombardment (or diode > switching, depending on your monitor type), so why do we rely on these > things to enhance our sim racing experience when all they do is take > you further away from what you get with the REAL driving experience? > > I weep openly here as I type, finally seeing the sim racing truth for > what it is, for you have opened my eyes and enlightened me, O Great > One. > > I bow down before you, and I will smote my ears if I ever hear an > unrealistic tyre squeal again. > > Thank you. Thank you so very much. > > I pray that all sim racers experience similar enlightenment. > > I will now go climb into my car, turn the key, and drive, for as you > have shown me, there is no reality in racing simulations, so the > pursuit is ultimately fruitless and unrewarding due to its inherent > lack of realism on all counts. At last, I have discovered your > secret, O Great Master, because for you and your kind, the true sim > racing experience can ony be achieved via a petroleum-powered > conveyance with four tyres and wheels, and -- oh the cosmic joke of it > all -- for you and your kind, "GTR" must truly mean "Go Try Reality." > > Somewhere the patron saint of reality must surely be smiling. > > -- JB > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>... > > To repeat my earlier reply to you in this thread, I don't think you andI > > are talking about the same thing. If I understand you correctly you are > > talking about squealing that happens after you lose grip, I am talkingabout > > the Papy tire squealing that happens slightly before losing grip. With > > racing slicks on a well conditioned track the former is realistic, the > > latter is not, and we just had testimony from a racing instructor inthis > > thread verifying that. As long as I can set up GTR so that I don't haveto > > hear tire squeal before losing grip I will be happy, the rest of you cando > > whatever you want. My opinion is that you can race a whole lot more > > consistently if you learn to nail your markers and watch your slip angleand > > ignore the noises, but some people just can't let go of the Papy noisesso I > > guess we will have to have them available in all future driving gamesfor > > the rest of eternity. > > > > > > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:VTspc.8912$[email hidden]... > > > That's my point. The sound IS there in real life and Ive heard it, asin > > my > > > example. > > > > > > Ive tinkered with the scrubbing volume and although it does help itsnot

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> > > perfect (very little rear tire feedback). It is a pre-alpha demo so > > things > > > may be much different in future incarnations. > > > > > > Big difference between dumbed down physics and a little tire noise > > feedback > > > to know the limit of traction. > > > > > > Mitch > > >

I respect your opinion but there is a reason I keep coming back to this point. You may have heard the argument about force-feedback versus the more expensive, non-FF wheels like the TSW line. There are some very fast people using non-FF wheels, and whenever the subject has come up the statement has been made that force feedback is too late to be useful, that your eyes will tell you what you need to know before the forces will. That argument still holds when it comes to audio, IMO. Your eyes will tell you what you need to know sooner and more reliably than the audio will. Trouble is, most people are used to having that audio cue from Papy games and so they don't *think* they can drive without it. But they most assuredly can. Anybody who can slide a car around a corner without losing it, or who is capable of rescuing a car from spin or a tankslapper, already has the intuitive feel necessary to drive by eye. Audio doesn't help you in those situations and frankly FF doesn't either. Seriously, there is no way audio or FF is of any help when you are trying to save a car from a spin, there is too much latency in both systems. What do you do? You look up the road in the direction you are trying to go, hold the throttle steady and steer out of it. You don't think about it, and you certainly don't listen for audio cues, you just do it, intuitively. If you can do that you already have the skill necessary to drive without the artificial tire sounds. And I believe most experienced sim racers are capable of doing that, therefore I believe most experienced sim racers do not *need* the artificial tire sounds. You will never know if you can walk without crutches until you throw them away and try it. And you can't quit if you fall down once either. Try it a few times, you might be amazed at how good you really are. ;o) "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_sNpc.49647$[email hidden]... > > To make up for that lack > of realism we need a way to simulate what you feel/hear/see in real life. > Sound ques IMO fit the bill at the expense of a bit of reality.

LOL. I misinterperated nothing. No need to read any books. I was watching F1 last week and they said they were adding some tyre pressure at the front to dial out some oversteer. You're just hell bent on trying to prove that you know better than sim companies that conflict with what YOU think YOU KNOW. You fit into the category of people that don't know how good and accurate some sims are and think it's just a big kiddies deal. Just because someone has a real life race car means nothing. People love to speak with authority when the truth is often that they don't have a clue! Those who own race vehicles aren't immune to this - even if they've been around for a while. There's a lot of people on this planet that have been getting a lot of things wrong for a long time. Further to this, I'd say fiddling with rear tyre pressures to adjust handling is insane - unless it's way off to start with. Once I get the temps even across the rears, they'd be the last thing I'd touch either in a pitstop or in the garage PS - I'm not that fast at GPL - anymore. Nor do I wish to be - NR2003 TA mod time. "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > That's not what I said at all. I was talking about the effect of tire > pressure on oversteer and understeer only, the rest of the conversationwas > all your misinterpretation of what I said. The effects of tire pressureare > well known and well documented and I provided you with a large number of > links that proved it, which you chose to ignore. Apparently you thinkthat > because you are fast in GPL that somehow means you know something about > vehicle dynamics. It doesn't and you don't. Go read a book or two, or > better yet take some classes. Right now you don't even know what youdon't

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> know. > > > "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:40a6ee05$0$31679$[email hidden]... > > Haqsau had previously been saying that "real life" racers told him > that > > they take air out of the rears to make their cars turn better. No one

had > > ever heard of them and it's no wonder. :) If he's now refering to others > > that happen to have a clue - full apologies. > > > >

Haqsau wrote: > I know I can do that in NR2003, but is it possible in GPL also? > I thought the only way to change it in GPL was to change the wav file. Opps, GPL is so old that I don't remember. Can't look it up either as I don't have it installed anymore. Sorry. Achim

"Fiddling with rear tyre pressures to adjust handling" is exactly what people have to do if they are racing in a showroom stock or other similarly restricted series. And in those circumstances it works exactly like I said it does, as shown by all the links I found that said exactly the same thing. How can you insist that you are right and that all these real world drivers are wrong? They wrote what they wrote based on personal experience, not theory. How can you deny that? My point can be demonstrated very easily. Start up GPL, pick a track, and go back to the default setup. The point is best illustrated with the Honda but you can probably see it with any of the others. All of the default setups that I have looked at have the front tire pressures set too low and the rears set too high. If you find one that is set to optimal pressures already, change cars or tracks until you find one that defaults to non-optimal pressures, otherwise this demonstration won't be possible. Now with a typical default setup, where the fronts are 3 or 4 psi lower than the rears, drive the car around for a few laps until you have a good feel for where, and by how much, it is understeering. Then set the tires to 20 psi all around, and drive it again. Surely you will agree that it does not understeer as much once you equalize the pressures. But you had to raise the front pressures and/or lower the rear pressures to do that, which according to you would make it understeer more. Clearly for this type of car the effect of tire pressure on slip angle has a greater effect on the handling than the effect of tire pressure on total wheel rate. That's what I am trying to explain, and that's how it works on all the real world examples that I provided. Now, is it possible we are not talking about the same thing? I'm talking about experience with cars where the spring rate is low compared to the tire rate, the sidewalls are relatively stiff, and the tire pressure is not going to make a huge difference on the total wheel rate. I'll agree that it is possible that with thinner sidewalls and stiffer springs the tire spring rate as a function of pressure could become more significant to the handling than the effect that pressure has on slip angle. Different tire compounds could also change this relationship. I have yet to experience that in a sim or in real life, but I can see how it could be possible. You would literally have to have a setup where the tire bulge is deflecting as much as the springs, under load, in order to experience this, but maybe in modern F1 that is the case. Your point about the F1 broadcast is well taken, although I don't consider a TV broadcast to be a reliable source of information. But I will give it the benefit of the doubt. So maybe the crux of our disagreement is that we are not really talking about directly comparable situations. Maybe. "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:40a7c9a2$0$31680$[email hidden]... > LOL. I misinterperated nothing. No need to read any books. I was > watching F1 last week and they said they were adding some tyre pressure at > the front to dial out some oversteer. You're just hell bent on trying to > prove that you know better than sim companies that conflict with what YOU > think YOU KNOW. You fit into the category of people that don't know howgood > and accurate some sims are and think it's just a big kiddies deal. Just > because someone has a real life race car means nothing. People love tospeak > with authority when the truth is often that they don't have a clue! Those > who own race vehicles aren't immune to this - even if they've been around > for a while. There's a lot of people on this planet that have been gettinga > lot of things wrong for a long time. > > Further to this, I'd say fiddling with rear tyre pressures to adjust > handling is insane - unless it's way off to start with. Once I get thetemps > even across the rears, they'd be the last thing I'd touch either in a > pitstop or in the garage > > PS - I'm not that fast at GPL - anymore. Nor do I wish to be - NR2003TA > mod time. >

In article <[email hidden]>, Haqsau <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted text (15 lines)

>To repeat my earlier reply to you in this thread, I don't think you and I >are talking about the same thing. If I understand you correctly you are >talking about squealing that happens after you lose grip, I am talking about >the Papy tire squealing that happens slightly before losing grip. With >racing slicks on a well conditioned track the former is realistic, the >latter is not, and we just had testimony from a racing instructor in this >thread verifying that. As long as I can set up GTR so that I don't have to >hear tire squeal before losing grip I will be happy, the rest of you can do >whatever you want. My opinion is that you can race a whole lot more >consistently if you learn to nail your markers and watch your slip angle and >ignore the noises, but some people just can't let go of the Papy noises so I >guess we will have to have them available in all future driving games for >the rest of eternity. > >

Have you actually tested your premis, that you do not need tyre squeal in order to drive as well? Can you drive as fast with or without tyre squeal using nr2003? Have you checked your lap times? It's alright stating this as fact, but seeing as you're the one who believes this to be the case, can you provide some data to prove this? -- Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :) GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -25.01

I don't think he was saying that the first thing you should change if you've got a wildly oversteering car is the tyre pressure. I think he meant that it's a possible fix to minor handling problems and only as a last resort.

"Haqsau" wrote: > I respect your opinion but there is a reason I keep coming back to this > point. You may have heard the argument about force-feedback versus themore > expensive, non-FF wheels like the TSW line. There are some very fastpeople > using non-FF wheels, and whenever the subject has come up the statementhas > been made that force feedback is too late to be useful, that your eyeswill > tell you what you need to know before the forces will. That argumentstill > holds when it comes to audio, IMO. Your eyes will tell you what you needto > know sooner and more reliably than the audio will. Trouble is, mostpeople > are used to having that audio cue from Papy games and so they don't*think* > they can drive without it. But they most assuredly can. I agree with you entirely becuase I learnt sim racing with graphics only - about 8 years before FF and even before I had a sound card - to maintain my marriage I turned off the Pc speaker at 1am.! However, there are many people who have learnt to replace the missing physics cues with FF and audio. In my view it is whatever works for them - there are no right or wrong answers. Peronally I think some fudged sound is better than a g-force meter on screen which would be another alternative cue. I appreciate your point of view but believe there are equally valid views on this subject. Cheers Tony

Okay, now that I've re-read it, I realize that my post came off WAY more caustic than I had intended -- a few smilies might have helped, because I was actually aiming more for humor rather than sarcasm, but I think the end result just seemed flat-out sarcastic, and that really wasn't my intention. My apologies for that. Very sorry. :-( -- JB "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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> Please tell me this is somebody impersonating John Bodin. I cannot believe > the real John Bodin would post utter crap like this. If this is the real > John Bodin, I suggest that in the future you wait until evening to start > drinking so heavily. > > > "jbodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Well, in order for me to rise to the godlike level of your sim racing > > abilities, could you please explain to me -- in great detail -- how I > > can "watch my slip angle" without the proper seat-of-the-pants > > physical cues, and with nothing to provide some replacement > > indication? I already know how to nail my markers, so that part is no > > problem, but I wish to aspire to your Jedi-like level of greatness. I > > seek enlightenment, and apparently you are one of the enlightened. > > > > Of course, there's always a chance that by making do without some > > replacement cues (such as slightly amplified tyre sounds to give you > > info on slip angles) to replace the missing physical cues, maybe you > > have been able to achieve your harmonious zen state with the physics > > engine by adopting the mystical "damn-it-to-hell-I'm racing" method > > often used by arcade racers. > > > > Still, though, if that IS the pathway to sim racing enlightenment, I > > will walk that path with you, O Great Master -- and if depriving > > myself of physical sensations (and also sound cues to replace those > > missing physical sensations) will help me achieve greater > > enlightenment, then perhaps I should also unplug my speakers > > altogether to help me reach an even HIGHER plane than what you have > > already achieved. While I'm back there, I may also try disconnecting > > my monitor, and perhaps my wheel and pedals, too -- why would I need > > even those paltry visual cues or controller inputs to serve as > > crutches, when my ultimate goal is sim racing enlightenment? In real > > racing -- or even when driving a real car -- you don't have an > > electronic controller attached to a USB port, and there is no monitor > > filled with pixels being excited by electron bombardment (or diode > > switching, depending on your monitor type), so why do we rely on these > > things to enhance our sim racing experience when all they do is take > > you further away from what you get with the REAL driving experience? > > > > I weep openly here as I type, finally seeing the sim racing truth for > > what it is, for you have opened my eyes and enlightened me, O Great > > One. > > > > I bow down before you, and I will smote my ears if I ever hear an > > unrealistic tyre squeal again. > > > > Thank you. Thank you so very much. > > > > I pray that all sim racers experience similar enlightenment. > > > > I will now go climb into my car, turn the key, and drive, for as you > > have shown me, there is no reality in racing simulations, so the > > pursuit is ultimately fruitless and unrewarding due to its inherent > > lack of realism on all counts. At last, I have discovered your > > secret, O Great Master, because for you and your kind, the true sim > > racing experience can ony be achieved via a petroleum-powered > > conveyance with four tyres and wheels, and -- oh the cosmic joke of it > > all -- for you and your kind, "GTR" must truly mean "Go Try Reality." > > > > Somewhere the patron saint of reality must surely be smiling. > > > > -- JB > >

I haven't really done a back-to-back comparison, all I know is that I run about the same lap time percentage in all sims, regardless of whether they have the tire noise or not. I typically run at about 101% to 103% of the alien lap times, regardless of whether it is GPL, EA F1 series, or Papy NASCAR series and mods. In GPL the noise is of course there. A few years ago I even tried using a louder sound in GPL to see if it helped, but it didn't. In NASCAR it doesn't seem like it's that obtrusive unless you turn it up deliberately, which I have not done. In the EA/ISI F1 games it seemed to change from version to version, some had squeal at the limit and some had squeal prior to the limit, and I don't remember which was which. But I also don't remember it having any effect on my driving ability. So in fairness I'm a bit off the pace in everything, but I haven't found the tire skid noise to be helpful when I have used it and I also know that some of these guys that are saying they need the noise aren't any faster than me, so it doesn't appear to be helping them either. Also I have downloaded some alien replays for the TA mod that, when watched from the cockpit view, hardly had any audible skidding. Scrubbing yes, skidding no. Maybe that's part of the disagreement? I have tried to make it clear that what I am against is hearing a *skidding* type of sound prior to actual skidding. I don't think I ever said I had a problem with a tire scrub noise. But since we have mostly been using the word "squealing" rather than skidding, maybe some people are confused about what I am trying to say. A scrubbing sound makes sense. I still don't personally find it to be helpful, but at least it makes sense and is not unrealistic. But hearing a skidding sound prior to actual skidding, as in GPL, does not make sense to me. As for GTR, which is where this discussion started in a different thread, I have no issues. I took a look at the ini file and found this: Vehicle Scrubbing VolMult="0.0000610352" Vehicle Scrubbing FreqGrip="-0.25000" Vehicle Scrubbing FreqSpeed="0.00195" Vehicle Skidding VolMult="0.0001220703" Vehicle Skidding FreqGrip="-0.25000" Vehicle Skidding FreqSpeed="0.00195" Vehicle Roadnoise VolSpeed="32.00000" Vehicle Roadnoise VolMult="0.0000050000" Vehicle Roadnoise FreqMin="0.80000" Vehicle Roadnoise FreqMult="0.00391" So it appears we will all be able to set the sounds up to suit our individual preferences. Haven't had time to play with them, but being able to change both the volume and frequency of scrubbing, skidding and road noise sounds, and being able to change the relationship of the frequency to both grip and speed, certainly ought to give everyone as much flexibility as they could possibly need to make it sound however they want. I think we can all be happy with that. "Peter Ives" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Have you actually tested your premis, that you do not need tyre squeal > in order to drive as well? Can you drive as fast with or without tyre > squeal using nr2003? Have you checked your lap times? > > It's alright stating this as fact, but seeing as you're the one who > believes this to be the case, can you provide some data to prove this? > -- > Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington) > Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email > If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :) > GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -25.01

Okay, now I'm getting your drift -- I am a non-Force Feedback person myself (TSW2 wheel, and I have tried FF, but haven't like it as much as my TSW2); putting things in these terms help me to see where you're coming from. I agree that you CAN and DO get a lot of this stuff from visual cues, too -- a slight bit of "slew" in the graphics can go a long way towards letting you know that the back end is starting to step out, which is probably why I'm able to get around okay in GTR without messing with the tyre sounds. In fact, I didn't really notice any "missing" tyre sounds in GTR until this discussion popped up here. The whole issue of "crutches" or "artificial aids" aside, though, I do think that enhanced audio combined with spot-on visual cues CAN go a long way towards making you feel like you KNOW exactly what happened -- the key is that these "added" cues need to be transparent enough that they aren't intrusive to the truly "sensitive" folks (like yourself, for example), while still useful enough to provide intuitive cues for the "average Joes" (like me or Achim, for example -- assuming that Achim doesn't mind being lumped in with the "average Joes"). This is where SELECTIONS, OPTIONS, and CHOICES become valuable in the marketplace: What is "intrusive" and "unrealistic" to some (customers and developers alike) may be "necessary" and "realistic" to others (and vice-versa). Codemasters made a similar blunder with RD2 when they included decent enough dead zone and saturation adjustments in their controller setup area, but failed to allow for an adjustable linearity setting or variable steering ratios in their car setups. They "assumed" that the more hardcore folks just always use fully-linear steering inputs, but that's a misconception -- I, for one, use a slightly non-linear steering setting in GPL, for example, because that's what works best with my TSW2 wheel. As for your point about trying do drive without artificially-enhanced tyre sounds, you really CAN take it a step further and see just how well you do without any sounds at all -- I use headphones when I drive, and on several occasions I've had to take my headphones off to take a phone call, but on a few occasions when I've just been hotlapping, I've continued to run laps even without the sounds, and it surprises me how well I'm able to run clean laps even without sound in GPL at places like Monaco. I would even go so far as to say that in some instances, things like tyre sounds and the sound of other cars around me may even DETRACT from my performance -- these sort of things seem to lead to an additional shot of adrenaline at times, which really can have a negative impact on my performance. That said, though, I'm actually in it for a bit of that adrenaline surge, and for me the tyre sounds help me to feel like it's more of a sim -- when you take out the tyre sounds, things start to feel much more arcade-like. I realize that the exaggerated tyre sounds aren't that realistic, but it's an additional feedback path that I like, and I feel that it enhances the "realism" of the sim racing experience for me. So, as I said, SELECTIONS, OPTIONS, and CHOICES what it's all about, and more developers need to offer more selections, options, and choices to better serve the broad fan base. If a developer can successfully address the issue of tyre sounds, for example, in a way that will keep both folks like you and like me happy at opposite ends of the spectrum, then we will BOTH be singing their praises, rather than having one or the other of us damning their implementation choices. And, FWIW, I'd wager that you're probably skilled enough as a sim racer to get by without those artificial Force Feedback cues . . . ;-) - JB "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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> I respect your opinion but there is a reason I keep coming back to this > point. You may have heard the argument about force-feedback versus the more > expensive, non-FF wheels like the TSW line. There are some very fast people > using non-FF wheels, and whenever the subject has come up the statement has > been made that force feedback is too late to be useful, that your eyes will > tell you what you need to know before the forces will. That argument still > holds when it comes to audio, IMO. Your eyes will tell you what you need to > know sooner and more reliably than the audio will. Trouble is, most people > are used to having that audio cue from Papy games and so they don't *think* > they can drive without it. But they most assuredly can. Anybody who can > slide a car around a corner without losing it, or who is capable of rescuing > a car from spin or a tankslapper, already has the intuitive feel necessary > to drive by eye. Audio doesn't help you in those situations and frankly FF > doesn't either. Seriously, there is no way audio or FF is of any help when > you are trying to save a car from a spin, there is too much latency in both > systems. What do you do? You look up the road in the direction you are > trying to go, hold the throttle steady and steer out of it. You don't think > about it, and you certainly don't listen for audio cues, you just do it, > intuitively. If you can do that you already have the skill necessary to > drive without the artificial tire sounds. And I believe most experienced > sim racers are capable of doing that, therefore I believe most experienced > sim racers do not *need* the artificial tire sounds. You will never know if > you can walk without crutches until you throw them away and try it. And you > can't quit if you fall down once either. Try it a few times, you might be > amazed at how good you really are. ;o) > > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:_sNpc.49647$[email hidden]... > > > > To make up for that lack > > of realism we need a way to simulate what you feel/hear/see in real life. > > Sound ques IMO fit the bill at the expense of a bit of reality.

Thanks, John, and I'm sorry I misinterpreted your intent. "jbodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Okay, now that I've re-read it, I realize that my post came off WAY > more caustic than I had intended -- a few smilies might have helped, > because I was actually aiming more for humor rather than sarcasm, but > I think the end result just seemed flat-out sarcastic, and that really > wasn't my intention. > > My apologies for that. Very sorry. > > :-( > > -- JB >

Well said. I agree with you on all counts. "jbodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Okay, now I'm getting your drift -- I am a non-Force Feedback person > myself (TSW2 wheel, and I have tried FF, but haven't like it as much > as my TSW2); putting things in these terms help me to see where you're > coming from. > > I agree that you CAN and DO get a lot of this stuff from visual cues, > too -- a slight bit of "slew" in the graphics can go a long way > towards letting you know that the back end is starting to step out, > which is probably why I'm able to get around okay in GTR without > messing with the tyre sounds. In fact, I didn't really notice any > "missing" tyre sounds in GTR until this discussion popped up here. > > The whole issue of "crutches" or "artificial aids" aside, though, I do > think that enhanced audio combined with spot-on visual cues CAN go a > long way towards making you feel like you KNOW exactly what happened > -- the key is that these "added" cues need to be transparent enough > that they aren't intrusive to the truly "sensitive" folks (like > yourself, for example), while still useful enough to provide intuitive > cues for the "average Joes" (like me or Achim, for example -- assuming > that Achim doesn't mind being lumped in with the "average Joes"). > > This is where SELECTIONS, OPTIONS, and CHOICES become valuable in the > marketplace: What is "intrusive" and "unrealistic" to some (customers > and developers alike) may be "necessary" and "realistic" to others > (and vice-versa). Codemasters made a similar blunder with RD2 when > they included decent enough dead zone and saturation adjustments in > their controller setup area, but failed to allow for an adjustable > linearity setting or variable steering ratios in their car setups. > They "assumed" that the more hardcore folks just always use > fully-linear steering inputs, but that's a misconception -- I, for > one, use a slightly non-linear steering setting in GPL, for example, > because that's what works best with my TSW2 wheel. > > As for your point about trying do drive without artificially-enhanced > tyre sounds, you really CAN take it a step further and see just how > well you do without any sounds at all -- I use headphones when I > drive, and on several occasions I've had to take my headphones off to > take a phone call, but on a few occasions when I've just been > hotlapping, I've continued to run laps even without the sounds, and it > surprises me how well I'm able to run clean laps even without sound in > GPL at places like Monaco. I would even go so far as to say that in > some instances, things like tyre sounds and the sound of other cars > around me may even DETRACT from my performance -- these sort of things > seem to lead to an additional shot of adrenaline at times, which > really can have a negative impact on my performance. > > That said, though, I'm actually in it for a bit of that adrenaline > surge, and for me the tyre sounds help me to feel like it's more of a > sim -- when you take out the tyre sounds, things start to feel much > more arcade-like. I realize that the exaggerated tyre sounds aren't > that realistic, but it's an additional feedback path that I like, and > I feel that it enhances the "realism" of the sim racing experience for > me. > > So, as I said, SELECTIONS, OPTIONS, and CHOICES what it's all about, > and more developers need to offer more selections, options, and > choices to better serve the broad fan base. If a developer can > successfully address the issue of tyre sounds, for example, in a way > that will keep both folks like you and like me happy at opposite ends > of the spectrum, then we will BOTH be singing their praises, rather > than having one or the other of us damning their implementation > choices. > > And, FWIW, I'd wager that you're probably skilled enough as a sim > racer to get by without those artificial Force Feedback cues . . . > > ;-) > > - JB >

>Agreed. I find it confusing to have a sound in a sim that is not there in >real life. But I think that people here are so used to having that noise in >Papy sims that it has become a crutch for them. They think they need it, >but they don't. The sound *is* there. I've heard the scrubbing sound when I've over-driven a turn in my real car. But I also had g-forces telling me what the car was doing. Absent some kind of tire noise feedback in a sim, how can *you* tell when you've approached the limit? Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

>In our case that translates to yaw angle, and visual >information is all you need to determine it. Try it. Turn the tire sounds >off and try a few laps. I don't think anybody here has, they would rather >just argue about it. I'm saying that with the *right attention* to visual >cues and to steering sensitivity one doesn't need any tire noises. I've run with no sounds at all, not sure if that's what you mean. I was lucky to even complete a LAP without crashing. Even in sims that DO have scrubbing tire sounds, I often can't tell what the car is doing. How the hell am I supposed to know *without* them?? But those of us who can't hear the sounds in GTR are running without tire sounds. I can't even tell when I've locked up a tire in the braking zone. My first indication is usually when I turn the wheel and nothing happens. That's not good in anyone's book... Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

>I respect your opinion but there is a reason I keep coming back to this >point. You may have heard the argument about force-feedback versus the more >expensive, non-FF wheels like the TSW line. There are some very fast people >using non-FF wheels, and whenever the subject has come up the statement has >been made that force feedback is too late to be useful, I have honestly never heard that before.

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> that your eyes will >tell you what you need to know before the forces will. That argument still >holds when it comes to audio, IMO. Your eyes will tell you what you need to >know sooner and more reliably than the audio will. Trouble is, most people >are used to having that audio cue from Papy games and so they don't *think* >they can drive without it. But they most assuredly can. Anybody who can >slide a car around a corner without losing it, or who is capable of rescuing >a car from spin or a tankslapper, already has the intuitive feel necessary >to drive by eye. Audio doesn't help you in those situations and frankly FF >doesn't either. Seriously, there is no way audio or FF is of any help when >you are trying to save a car from a spin, there is too much latency in both >systems. What do you do? You look up the road in the direction you are >trying to go, hold the throttle steady and steer out of it. You don't think >about it, and you certainly don't listen for audio cues, you just do it, >intuitively.

Actually, the sound *is* usually my first indication that something has gone wrong. I'm having a HELL of a time coming up to speed in N2k3. I find it damn near impossible to save a car that has started to spin on an oval, and get in tankslappers so often I've lost count. I can never tell when the car is about so snap back, so I usually end up spining the other way... -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

On 17 May 2004 01:53:18 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >The sound *is* there. I've heard the scrubbing sound when I've over-driven a >turn in my real car. Right. Tires make a scrubbing sound before they break traction. Anyone who has driven any kind of a car near the limit should be aware of this (street car, go kart, dragster, pickup truck, stock car, whatever). Jason

>Eldred : How you doin Buddy, I still read r.a.s. pretty regular >and post very occasionally :) I'm doing ok - I have a NEW sim to be slow in...(N2k3) Argh. Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

>"jbodin" <[email hidden]> wrote > I weep openly here as I type, finally seeing the sim racing truth for > what it is, for you have opened my eyes and enlightened me, O Great > One. o_O Step away from the bong -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"jbodin" <[email hidden]> wrote > Once realistic G-forces are available to me as a "driving aid," I'll > agree with your statement about excess tyre squealing. This reminds me of the G-Force level that SODA:Off-Road had back in those days. I wonder why it's not more used in sims by the developpers. I think LFS has something like that, no? -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Somewhere in this long and confusing thread I mentioned that I was not arguing about the scrubbing sound, I was arguing about the skidding sound. To me, "tire squeal" is the skidding sound. You should not hear a skidding sound until the tire breaks traction. That's all I ever meant, but it has been misinterpreted by almost everybody. "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On 17 May 2004 01:53:18 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > > >The sound *is* there. I've heard the scrubbing sound when I'veover-driven a

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> >turn in my real car. > > Right. Tires make a scrubbing sound before they break traction. > > Anyone who has driven any kind of a car near the limit should be aware > of this (street car, go kart, dragster, pickup truck, stock car, > whatever). > > Jason

Haqsau wrote: > Somewhere in this long and confusing thread I mentioned that I was not > arguing about the scrubbing sound, I was arguing about the skidding sound. > To me, "tire squeal" is the skidding sound. You should not hear a skidding > sound until the tire breaks traction. That's all I ever meant, but it has > been misinterpreted by almost everybody. Just for the sake of completeness, N2k3 has a scrubbing sound which comes in varying intensities before the tires loses grip. Achim

"Haqsau" wrote... > I respect your opinion but there is a reason I keep > coming back to this point. You may have heard the > argument about force-feedback versus the more > expensive, non-FF wheels like the TSW line. There > are some very fast people using non-FF wheels, Non-FF is faster, simply because one doesn't have to deal with forces reacted through the steering. > and whenever the subject has come up the statement > has been made that force feedback is too late to be > useful, that your eyes will tell you what you need > to know before the forces will. That's why GPL and NR2003 use adjustable prediction to combat this phenomenon, people are just too dense to use it. "latency is bad, lets use the minimum possible". Same with modem connections: can't get it into their Neanderthal skulls they should be using lower connection speeds without compression or error correction. > That argument still holds when it comes to audio, IMO. > <snip> > Seriously, there is no way audio or FF is of any help > when you are trying to save a car from a spin, there > is too much latency in both systems. There is also a minute latency in de video... Look, let's get a couple of things straight. 1) all tyres will produce some kind of noise when used at the limit. Whether this is heard as a squeal or something depends on several factors, but mostly on its speed relative to its size. Whether the racecar driver can actually hear this is besides the point. If racing games/sims were to have audio as heard by the driver wearing earplugs/helmet they would sound horrible and just wouldn't sell. 2) Force Feedback, if properly configured and set up is a great help in car control, consistency and immersion, _IF_ one is not concerned about ultimate speed. 3) The human brain can adapt to latencies in control systems of up to a second. So, what we have here is a matter of preference... > What do you do? You look up the road in the direction > you are trying to go, hold the throttle steady and > steer out of it. You don't think about it, and you > certainly don't listen for audio cues, you just do it, > intuitively. I don't know what I rely on, but, in the NR2003 and the 65 mod, I can feel what each contact patch is doing through the FF while I'm "just doing it". Engine drowns out any tyre noise in the '65 mod, so I'm not using audio cues there, but I don't know about other games. Can't drive '67 GPL with the sound off, that's for sure... no sense of speed. > <snip> > Try it a few times, you might be amazed at how good > you really are. ;o) I know exactly how good I am, thank you. <g> Jan. =---

"Mitch_A" wrote... > Im just sittin here minding my own business watching the Busch qualifying > when the #9 Yahoo car loses it and spins. I CLEARLY heard the tiresSQUEAL. > Not sure how you guys can argue that slicks don't squeal as I just heardit > loud and clear. Make any excuse you want to convince yourself but youre > just plain wrong as slicks obviously make a squealing noise when pushed > beyond the limit... I just watches Danish Touring Car Championship..... they run on slicks..... and they squeal..... loud and clear..... !!! My guess with the missing squealing would be that tyres have improved so much, that when you reach the limit where the tyres starts squealing, you are off the track anyway !!!

>Somewhere in this long and confusing thread I mentioned that I was not >arguing about the scrubbing sound, I was arguing about the skidding sound. >To me, "tire squeal" is the skidding sound. You should not hear a skidding >sound until the tire breaks traction. That's all I ever meant, but it has >been misinterpreted by almost everybody. Ok, *that* I'll agree with. So the problem is that some sims(F1C) ONLY have the squealing(skidding) sound. There's no 'in-between' sound for when you're on the limit. That could be why I have so much trouble driving the F1 car - no warning. Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

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>>In our case that translates to yaw angle, and visual >>information is all you need to determine it. Try it. Turn the tire sounds >>off and try a few laps. I don't think anybody here has, they would rather >>just argue about it. I'm saying that with the *right attention* to visual >>cues and to steering sensitivity one doesn't need any tire noises. > >I've run with no sounds at all, not sure if that's what you mean. I was >lucky >to even complete a LAP without crashing. >Even in sims that DO have scrubbing tire sounds, I often can't tell what the >car is doing. How the hell am I supposed to know *without* them??

Yeah, I'm replying to my own post... I ran some laps in N2K3 TPTCC at WG(boot) last night without tire sounds. It wasn't as difficult to get around without sounds as it was in GPL. However, I was a full 3 seconds slower without the tire sounds. Also, I'm sure I'm wearing the tires a lot more than if I could hear them. Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

EldredP wrote: >I find it damn near impossible to save a car that has started to spin on an oval, Well I didn't run N2k3 that often, but I noticed right away that seems to be actually the nature of these beasts. In GPL it's more or continously catching slides and making saves when you're on the edge and that's quite doable because the cars react so quickly to your countersteerin' action, but Nascars are like whales on wheels: once they go, unless you're hyper early, it's very easy to lose them altogether. (Reminds me of the Honda or BRM in GPL. Almost the same thing with all that huge mass at the rear.) Needless to say, gimme the GPL cars any day ;) 'Specially with the 65 Mod, the vehicles are so very catchable - a pleasure to drive. (It's only squeezing the very last bit of speed out of them that's hard, you've got less power so you really need to drive a good line.) > I'm having a HELL of a time coming up to speed in N2k3. Um... Not losing the car might help, I hear they go faster when you stay in 4th gear ;) Regards, Rudy ------------- GPLRank: -22

> > > I'm having a HELL of a time coming up to speed in N2k3. > >Um... Not losing the car might help, I hear they go faster when you stay >in 4th gear ;) > I'm open to suggestions on how to stay in control. As it is, the only thing I'm getting is pissed at always running last. I've already quit 2 NASCAR leagues, and I'm about *this* close to quitting altogether... Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

You certainly do fine in GPL. What is it in particular about N2K3 that you think could be messing you up? "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > I'm open to suggestions on how to stay in control. As it is, the onlything

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> I'm getting is pissed at always running last. I've already quit 2 NASCAR > leagues, and I'm about *this* close to quitting altogether... > > Eldred > -- > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Screamers League > IICC League > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > Hist. +82.34 MoH:na > N2k3 rank:in progress > Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin > Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro > US East

>You certainly do fine in GPL. What is it in particular about N2K3 that you >think could be messing you up? Not having the benefit of 5 years worth of practice, perhaps? Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

I dont buy that Eldred. If you can run GPL consistently then you have the required skills to go fast in N2k3. Mitch "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > Not having the benefit of 5 years worth of practice, perhaps?

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> > Eldred > -- > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Screamers League > IICC League > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > Hist. +82.34 MoH:na > N2k3 rank:in progress > Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin > Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro > US East

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >I respect your opinion but there is a reason I keep coming back to this > >point. You may have heard the argument about force-feedback versus themore > >expensive, non-FF wheels like the TSW line. There are some very fastpeople > >using non-FF wheels, and whenever the subject has come up the statementhas > >been made that force feedback is too late to be useful, > > I have honestly never heard that before. > Yep. The Bionic man has reported this on repeated occasions! A distinct 0.00000000000001 sec is detected.

>I dont buy that Eldred. If you can run GPL consistently then you have the >required skills to go fast in N2k3. Well, it isn't happening. It's also possible that N2k3 stresses my system so much that I'm not getting accurate inputs and feedback. I've resisted blaming my system for my poor performance, but I won't know that until I can update what I have. Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

That's entirely possible. Now that I have the new box I've cut 1 sec off my times. Which, aren't all that great, but I'll take that kind of improvement. Repeated as often as necessary... :) Mike On 18 May 2004 12:01:48 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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>>I dont buy that Eldred. If you can run GPL consistently then you have the >>required skills to go fast in N2k3. > >Well, it isn't happening. It's also possible that N2k3 stresses my system so >much that I'm not getting accurate inputs and feedback. I've resisted blaming >my system for my poor performance, but I won't know that until I can update >what I have. > >Eldred

EldredP wrote in news:[email hidden]: >>You certainly do fine in GPL. What is it in particular about N2K3 >>that you think could be messing you up? > > Not having the benefit of 5 years worth of practice, perhaps? > > Eldred I just starting playing with "the dark side" this past winter, and I'm not having to fight anything more than boredom on the superspeedways when there aren't enough cars/trucks to make traffic interesting. So I certainly don't have 5-year's worth of practice in NASCAR. It *is* a different style of driving. But I can't see where anyone who was respectable at one wouldn't be respectable at the other. (Well, maybe someone used to speedways wouldn't do quite as well on a road course in a GPL car... but you're going the other way.) -- Darryl

EldredP wrote: > I'm open to suggestions on how to stay in control. As it is, the only thing > I'm getting is pissed at always running last. I've already quit 2 NASCAR > leagues, and I'm about *this* close to quitting altogether... Hey, welcome back into the GPL fold! ;) (Seriously, you might want to try the 65 Mod. The Less Frustrating More Fun type of serious sim racing. At least you can keep THEIR rear ends tucked in if you make a tiny mistake...) Regards, Rudy