NRO - Going towards 1998

Drivers: Great here is an update from TEN NASCAR Project Manager, Sean Butcher!!!! Read it and wheep.... I was wondering if PAPRYUS got a sign up free for all of us that signed up for TEN with the NASCAR 2 release... I cant figure they would have done that for free. I apologize to all the IVGA MEMBERS that I recommended that you sign up. Jan or Feb or now... Well you read it for yourself, but for sure its August/Sept/Oct/Nov or 1998 if at all. Don Wilshe, IVGA ================================================================================================================== July 3, 1997 A lot has happened since my last update. We now have a game running on a Solaris server, which can be launched from the TEN software, and yes, we can race! We are currently in the process of eliminating bugs, trying to make sure that all the game creation options work as they are supposed to, and that the game is stable and reports back all the information needed. Development is progressing steadily, but continues to take somewhat longer than original estimates. We have set certain stability and performance requirements that the game needs to achieve. TEN and Papyrus want this product to succeed, so we have set extremely high standards for it. TEN and Papyrus are in the process of trying to meet these requirements but we don't have a firm date for when they will be met (we are mostly tuning and bug hunting). The upshot of this is that a late July release is unlikely. Currently, we can't give a prediction of the release date until these requirements are met. Please bear with us. We'll let you know as soon as we have more information. Sean Butcher ================================================================================================================== Gee... Why didnt they just port over HAWAII's NASCAR 1 it wasnt that bad....

As a prior developer you well know that programming can sometimes be a very time-insensitive process. This is something that's being 'developed' in-house at TEN. I think it WILL come out, but I also think TEN was wrong to start advertising 'vaporware'. Unfortunately, in the age of selling products that don't yet exist, companies are more worried about perception, then in reality. Microsoft has mastered the process of marketing products that don't exist. I wish companies would stop this practice, but I suppose it's here to stay. Hints are one thing, marketing is another... Rich I apologize to all the IVGA

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> As a prior developer you well know that programming can sometimes be > a very time-insensitive process. This is something that's being > 'developed' in-house at TEN. I think it WILL come out, but I also > think TEN was wrong to start advertising 'vaporware'. Unfortunately, > in the age of selling products that don't yet exist, companies are > more worried about perception, then in reality. > Microsoft has mastered the process of marketing products that > don't exist. I wish companies would stop this practice, but I suppose > it's here to stay. Hints are one thing, marketing is another... > Rich > I apologize to all the IVGA > >MEMBERS that I recommended that you sign up. Jan or Feb or now... Well > >you read it for yourself, but for sure its August/Sept/Oct/Nov or 1998 > >if > >at all. > >Don Wilshe, IVGA > > Please > >bear with us. We'll let you know as soon as we have more information. > >Sean Butcher > >==================================================================================================================

Well in the mean Time TEN is making a fortune off of us since we all signed on at the first of the year .We are just paying for a spot I guess since I have no other use for TEN.I think we need to get some type of refund.Just a Thought -- Paul Carillon http://members.aol.com/sschevy454 http://www.oilout.com/nros/hts/ http://www2.netwide.net/n2ros/midwest/default.asp

Have to agree with you Paul. I believed TENs' advertising back in December during their membership drive and signed up. Seven months of paying was reasonable enough time to expect some sort of explanation or progress. The answer to my post was..." well you can quit and rejoin when NROS starts, at a higher rate". Great answer, the type that would get one of my employees fired on the spot if they dared use it on a customer. That this type of marketing is the status quo doesn't make it right. They really should have remained quiet on it. Sure it would have made some mad, ( what doesn't ?) but at least it wouldn't have cost a lot of us 105 bucks just to be told to quit and rejoin. Regards, Greg Avella

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> > Well in the mean Time TEN is making a fortune off of us since we all > >signed on at the first of the year .We are just paying for a spot I > >guess since I have no other use for TEN.I think we need to get some type > >of refund.Just a Thought > >-- > >Paul Carillon > Have to agree with you Paul. I believed TENs' advertising back in December > during their membership drive and signed up. Seven months of paying was > reasonable enough time to expect some sort of explanation or progress. > The answer to my post was..." well you can quit and rejoin when NROS starts, > at a higher rate". Great answer, the type that would get one of my employees > fired on the spot if they dared use it on a customer. > That this type of marketing is the status quo doesn't make it right. They > really should have remained quiet on it. Sure it would have made some mad, > ( what doesn't ?) but at least it wouldn't have cost a lot of us 105 bucks > just to be told to quit and rejoin. > Regards, > Greg Avella

Wanna light a fire under the ole boys??? get a class action suit going against them... I bet they wont be near as Smug when faced with paying back all the money they received to date.... hell, it Worked for AOL subscribers,,,,and Aol has gotten Much better since. I still remember when I first got NR2...I did the sign up thing,,,,searched all over the web,,,,,could not BELIEVE that it wasnt happening yet,,,,and finally decided it was just a higly planned money scam,,,,apparently... (havent seen anything to disprove me, yet) -- Sit down,,Strap in,,Shut up,,Hang on,,Go fast,,Turn left,,Kiss Trophy Girl GGGGGGgoooo #3,,,31,,,28,,,94,,,6,,,5,,,18,,,8,,, Handy^man

> As a prior developer you well know that programming can sometimes be > a very time-insensitive process. This is something that's being > 'developed' in-house at TEN. No, it's not really being 'developed' by TEN. The difficult and time-consuming part of the work is being done by Papyrus, by Papyrus employees, in Watertown. TEN has some work to do, but as far as I know, the part that's taking time is making sure that N2 is up to running unattended, cheating-resistant, reliable races over a WAN. That's all in Papy's court. TEN just has to provide the network, accounting, and machine room space... ---Jim

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> >> > Well in the mean Time TEN is making a fortune off of us since we all > >> >signed on at the first of the year .We are just paying for a spot I > >> >guess since I have no other use for TEN.I think we need to get some type > >> >of refund. > >> >-- > >> >Paul Carillon > >> Have to agree with you Paul. I believed TENs' advertising back in December > >> during their membership drive and signed up. Seven months of paying was > >> reasonable enough time to expect some sort of explanation or progress. > [snip] > >> Regards, > >> Greg Avella > >Wanna light a fire under the ole boys??? get a class action suit going > >against them... > >I bet they wont be near as Smug when faced with paying back all the > >money they received > >to date.... hell, it Worked for AOL subscribers,,,,and Aol has gotten > >Much better since. > [snip] > >-- > > Handy^man > Unless you signed up for an NROS-specific account, I'm not sure what > they did wrong. TEN does support many other games. The AOL situation > involved very poor or no service to it's subscribers. Even though TEN > doesn't support NASCAR 2 as of yet, the one game many of us would even > bother to play on their network, they still provide reasonable support > to play other popular games. > Yes, they should've waited until NROS was working before advertising > for it. But they didn't deceive anyone by saying it WAS available for > play when they started taking people's money. > My suggestion: contact TEN and see if they'll put a hold on your > account, including the lower rate, until you decide to reactivate it > at a later date (i.e., when NROS is working). > Kyle Langston > ______________________

you are, sir,,,,correct,,,,and I stand corrected,,,, :) I cancelled promptly,,,,and still figure to resign when and IF N2 is available,,,,,I did NOT care for any of the other games,,,,, -- btw,,,,thanks for the critique,,,,,I need that once in a while.... sometimes I vent before I think ???? gotaa remember,,,think twice,,,and post once ;) Sit down,,Strap in,,Shut up,,Hang on,,Go fast,,Turn left,,Kiss Trophy Girl GGGGGGgoooo #3,,,31,,,28,,,94,,,6,,,5,,,18,,,8,,, Handy^man

Just a second. Not saying that is WAS available may be true in a legal sense. However, my frequent phone calls to TEN and conversations with the the TEN personnel always led me to believe that implementation was coming ..."anytime, now"... "real soon"..."they're almost finished testing it" a blah blah blah. There is a distinction here. They TOOK the money based upon the advertising campaign for the NROS. The intent to sell A product was there. Perhaps they followed the letter of the law in the campaign but anyone can see that (NROS) was the bait. I couldn't care less if it takes two years to implement the NROS. I'll be there when it's done. However, the " tough crap,buddy..you bought our advertising...should have known better" attitude of TEN is discouraging. I shouldn't have to "know better". Regards, G Avella

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> > As a prior developer you well know that programming can sometimes be > > a very time-insensitive process. This is something that's being > > 'developed' in-house at TEN. I think it WILL come out, but I also > > think TEN was wrong to start advertising 'vaporware'. Unfortunately, > > in the age of selling products that don't yet exist, companies are > > more worried about perception, then in reality. > > Microsoft has mastered the process of marketing products that > > don't exist. I wish companies would stop this practice, but I suppose > > it's here to stay. Hints are one thing, marketing is another... > > Rich > > I apologize to all the IVGA > > >MEMBERS that I recommended that you sign up. Jan or Feb or now... Well > > >you read it for yourself, but for sure its August/Sept/Oct/Nov or 1998 > > >if > > >at all. > > >Don Wilshe, IVGA > > > Please > > >bear with us. We'll let you know as soon as we have more information. > > >Sean Butcher > > >================================================================================================================== > Well in the mean Time TEN is making a fortune off of us since we all > signed on at the first of the year .We are just paying for a spot I > guess since I have no other use for TEN.I think we need to get some type > of refund.Just a Thought > -- > Paul Carillon > http://members.aol.com/sschevy454 > http://www.oilout.com/nros/hts/ > http://www2.netwide.net/n2ros/midwest/default.asp

DEAD ON !!!! I was wondering when these rumblings would start and they SHOULD !! Has anyone checked on the legality of trying a different alternative perhaps through a dos type dial in ?? NASCAR wouldn't touch it obviously but would we care if we could FINALLY run even 20 cars in a live race ???? David Hudson

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>> As a prior developer you well know that programming can sometimes be >> a very time-insensitive process. This is something that's being >> 'developed' in-house at TEN. >No, it's not really being 'developed' by TEN. >The difficult and time-consuming part of the work is being done by >Papyrus, by Papyrus employees, in Watertown. TEN has some work to do, >but as far as I know, the part that's taking time is making sure that N2 >is up to running unattended, cheating-resistant, reliable races over a >WAN. That's all in Papy's court. TEN just has to provide the network, >accounting, and machine room space...

I was under the assumption <as was everyone else>, that the app was being ported from a DOS app to a Client-Server UNIX Application, Jim. How is this being developed in-house at Papyrus by folks who aren't Client-Server/Unix programming people? Much different then writing a DOS/Win95 Winsock Application. You're message is very different from the one sent out by Sean Butcher. Rich

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> > Well in the mean Time TEN is making a fortune off of us since we all > > signed on at the first of the year .We are just paying for a spot I > > guess since I have no other use for TEN.I think we need to get some type > > of refund.Just a Thought > > -- > > Paul Carillon > > http://members.aol.com/sschevy454 > > http://www.oilout.com/nros/hts/ > > http://www2.netwide.net/n2ros/midwest/default.asp > DEAD ON !!!! I was wondering when these rumblings would start and they > SHOULD !! Has anyone checked on the legality of trying a different > alternative perhaps through a dos type dial in ?? > NASCAR wouldn't touch it obviously but would we care if we could > FINALLY run even 20 cars in a live race ???? > David Hudson

Technically speaking software could be written to re-create Hawaii for N2. However without a modified version of Nascar2 executable there would be serious security problems. Legally this is another question. mykey

> I couldn't care less if it takes two years to implement the NROS. I'll > be there when it's done. However, the " tough crap,buddy..you bought our > advertising...should have known better" attitude of TEN is discouraging. > I shouldn't have to "know better". Uh-oh; I fully agreed with you until your last sentence. The growing idea that consumers shouldn't have to use their brain is discouraging... ---Jim

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> >No, it's not really being 'developed' by TEN. > >The difficult and time-consuming part of the work is being done by > >Papyrus, by Papyrus employees, in Watertown. TEN has some work to do, > >but as far as I know, the part that's taking time is making sure that N2 > >is up to running unattended, cheating-resistant, reliable races over a > >WAN. That's all in Papy's court. TEN just has to provide the network, > >accounting, and machine room space... > I was under the assumption <as was everyone else>, that the app was > being ported from a DOS app to a Client-Server UNIX Application, Jim.

You are correct. It's being done by Papy personnel, who are learning the Unix side of things. N2 in multiplayer mode is already a client-server app, with the distinction that one machine contains both a server and a client. It's being converted to a pure client server architecture, with the server running on Solaris machines. Solaris is not Intel-endian, the server now has no need for any of the graphics, and the rules enforcement and cheating-prevention need to be increased over the N2 IPX multi shipped in the box. That's all Papy-work, not TEN-work. I didn't see his message, but I'm pretty familiar with who's doing what, and I'm certain that Papy personnel are performing the "hard" part of the port. I'm sure that TEN isn't sitting on their butts, but I don't believe they have any hand in working on the NASCAR-specific portions of the code, merely in the accounting and connection part of the equation, and acting as a technical resource for the Papy programmers porting the server. ---Jim

Well, there are people who work at Papy who came from other companies who use different development environments than Win95/DOS. For instance, I used to work on Ultrix and OSF/1 (digital unix, its called now) doing client/server network applications. ryan smart

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>> I couldn't care less if it takes two years to implement the NROS. I'll >> be there when it's done. However, the " tough crap,buddy..you bought our >> advertising...should have known better" attitude of TEN is discouraging. >> I shouldn't have to "know better". >Uh-oh; I fully agreed with you until your last sentence. The growing >idea that consumers shouldn't have to use their brain is discouraging... >---Jim

I certainly didn't mean to infer that one shouldn't exercise the grey matter, just that I shouldn't be expected by TEN to " know better" than to believe their advertising. Btw, some time back you mentioned that you did your Thesis on simulating a race car. I'd like to read that if possible. Is it archived at a University for public perusal? Regards, G Avella

<sniped negative crybaby drivel> Well in the mean Time TEN is making a fortune off of us since we all Nice blanket generalizations. First of all, how do you know "TEN is making a fortune off of us"? Have you audited TEN's books or something? You do not have a clue as to what the financial health is at TEN. I seriously doubt that the number of people who joined and have stayed on is as high as you think. When you say, we all signed on at the first of the year, you make it sound like all of R.A.S. signed up. Speak for yourself, I didn't sign up and have enough of a clue to wait until the thing is announced officially. Geez, talk about cranial rectalitis! Third and final flame, If "you have no other use for TEN" and have stuck with it for all these months, why should anyone refund your money? Being ***/martyr/ignorant/too lazy to cancel your account, is no grounds for a refund IMO. You are probably a great guy and all but your post really makes me want to puke. Take responsibility for your own actions and quit it with the small minded "us vs. them mentality". Bryan Grauss SF, CA

> Btw, some time back you mentioned that you did your Thesis on > simulating a race car. I'd like to read that if possible. Is it > archived at a University for public perusal? Wasn't me. My thesis was on digital design tools, compiling text descriptions of finite state machines, reducing boolean expressions, and generating files to burn PALs... And I don't think my thesis is archived at MIT, but maybe it is. I probably have the***files somewhere, but honestly, it's not that interesting... (Now, if it were on vehicle simulation, that would be another story...) ---Jim

Most of the rumors piping from both TEN and Papyrus were hinting at a Spring-97 start date, (quote from TEN tag inside N2 box: "NASCAR RACING LEAGUE...COMING IN EARLY '97...ONLY ON TEN.") so signing on in December didn't seem like such a bad thing - especially since TEN made an offer for an additional savings of $15-off the regular $29.95 price...good for the rest of '97... I think at the time, many were tired of the long distance charges by dialing into Hawaii, so the offer was an attractive one. From what I can remember, TEN's offer for $14.95 expired in early January. As the months passed, each new bit of news indicated a setback of only a few weeks (to work-out a bug here, a bug there), so one could reason that it was OK to hang onto the TEN account... Personally, I don't think TEN should have to refund anything (vaporware is vaporware), but perhaps they should have been more cautious in their ads. Not a flame, just my $.02 Cheers! Marc Marc J. Nelson Sim Racing Online / Sim Racing News / The Sim Project http://members.aol.com/simracing

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>> > Well in the mean Time TEN is making a fortune off of us since we all >> >signed on at the first of the year .We are just paying for a spot I >> >guess since I have no other use for TEN.I think we need to get some type >> >of refund.Just a Thought >> >-- >> >Paul Carillon >> Have to agree with you Paul. I believed TENs' advertising back in December >> during their membership drive and signed up. Seven months of paying was >> reasonable enough time to expect some sort of explanation or progress. >> The answer to my post was..." well you can quit and rejoin when NROS starts, >> at a higher rate". Great answer, the type that would get one of my employees >> fired on the spot if they dared use it on a customer. >> That this type of marketing is the status quo doesn't make it right. They >> really should have remained quiet on it. Sure it would have made some mad, >> ( what doesn't ?) but at least it wouldn't have cost a lot of us 105 bucks >> just to be told to quit and rejoin. >> Regards, >> Greg Avella >Wanna light a fire under the ole boys??? get a class action suit going >against them... >I bet they wont be near as Smug when faced with paying back all the >money they received >to date.... hell, it Worked for AOL subscribers,,,,and Aol has gotten >Much better since. >I still remember when I first got NR2...I did the sign up >thing,,,,searched all over the web,,,,,could not BELIEVE that it wasnt >happening yet,,,,and finally decided it was just a higly planned money >scam,,,,apparently... (havent seen anything to disprove me, yet) >-- >Sit down,,Strap in,,Shut up,,Hang on,,Go fast,,Turn left,,Kiss Trophy >Girl >GGGGGGgoooo #3,,,31,,,28,,,94,,,6,,,5,,,18,,,8,,, > Handy^man

I'd love to hear you explain in court during such a suit why you signed up in December for something that was coming in Spring. btw: Spring starts in late March. Really guys, I also wanted to sign up real bad back then, thinking NROS was right around the corner, but after going to TEN's website, reading the press releases, learning that NROS would require TEN v.1.2, waiting for 1.2, figuring out that a Spring release could be anywhere from late March to late June, seeing 1.2 released, reading the N2 newsgroup that started at TEN, hearing the news that late July was a possibility, reading the announcement that late July might not happen, etc., etc. Still waiting like everyone else. The information was there. Unfortunately, I'll admit, it did take a bit of work to get, but it was there. Kurt

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> >> > Well in the mean Time TEN is making a fortune off of us since we all > >> >signed on at the first of the year .We are just paying for a spot I > >> >guess since I have no other use for TEN.I think we need to get some type > >> >of refund.Just a Thought > >> >-- > >> >Paul Carillon > >> Have to agree with you Paul. I believed TENs' advertising back in December > >> during their membership drive and signed up. Seven months of paying was > >> reasonable enough time to expect some sort of explanation or progress. > >> The answer to my post was..." well you can quit and rejoin when NROS starts, > >> at a higher rate". Great answer, the type that would get one of my employees > >> fired on the spot if they dared use it on a customer. > >> That this type of marketing is the status quo doesn't make it right. They > >> really should have remained quiet on it. Sure it would have made some mad, > >> ( what doesn't ?) but at least it wouldn't have cost a lot of us 105 bucks > >> just to be told to quit and rejoin. > >> Regards, > >> Greg Avella > >Wanna light a fire under the ole boys??? get a class action suit going > >against them... > >I bet they wont be near as Smug when faced with paying back all the > >money they received > >to date.... hell, it Worked for AOL subscribers,,,,and Aol has gotten > >Much better since. > >I still remember when I first got NR2...I did the sign up > >thing,,,,searched all over the web,,,,,could not BELIEVE that it wasnt > >happening yet,,,,and finally decided it was just a higly planned money > >scam,,,,apparently... (havent seen anything to disprove me, yet) > >-- > >Sit down,,Strap in,,Shut up,,Hang on,,Go fast,,Turn left,,Kiss Trophy > >Girl > >GGGGGGgoooo #3,,,31,,,28,,,94,,,6,,,5,,,18,,,8,,, > > Handy^man > I'd love to hear you explain in court during such a suit why you > signed up in December for something that was coming in Spring. > btw: Spring starts in late March. > Really guys, I also wanted to sign up real bad back then, thinking > NROS was right around the corner, but after going to TEN's website, > reading the press releases, learning that NROS would require TEN > v.1.2, waiting for 1.2, figuring out that a Spring release could be > anywhere from late March to late June, seeing 1.2 released, reading > the N2 newsgroup that started at TEN, hearing the news that late July > was a possibility, reading the announcement that late July might not > happen, etc., etc. Still waiting like everyone else. > The information was there. Unfortunately, I'll admit, it did take a > bit of work to get, but it was there. > Kurt

AS I SAID in an earlier post : the best way to benefit the consumer is for some competition between companies : Is it feasible for an Alternative to NRO ?? Would we REALLY care whether the gods of NASCAR endorsed it or not ? If twenty racers could race against each other that would soothe the cravings . Perhaps we should all check with a tech support person working for our ISP's and really find out what is involved . David Hudson

I totally agree with you on the consumer benefitting from competition. Unfortunately, I don't think anybody could do it (more than 2/3 racers going head-head) for N2 without Papy helping. Papy also has an agreement with Ten that gives Ten some sort of sole source to online *** with N2. It looks like if any serious competition is going to come along it would have to be another game. Haven't heard anything serious from any other games. Would I really care if Nascar didn't endorse it? Probably not too much. When this thing gets going on Ten, there will be many leagues and pickup races in addition to the NROS. The NROS will just be the big cheese of all the leagues. Kurt

I signed up for TEN for approxamitly 10 minutes after I found there was no support for N2 or NROS at the time and I am still waiting, but they didnt get a red cent from me and when it comes time to re-subcribe to get in the nros then I will...until then I'll spend my money on better things....like beer! Drive hard...turn left...and by all means...use the draft! Team Buttless Motorsports #61 Pohanka Auotomotive Group Chevy Monte Carlo