I am pleased to announce that Papyrus is releasing an add-on package
for NASCAR Racing 2 this fall based on the Busch Grand National
series. The game will feature 10-13 tracks from the series as well as
up to 30 Grand National drivers. A Busch calendar will also be
included in the package to allow you to compete for the Grand National
championship.
To address the rumors I have read on RAS - no, we will not be
including Daytona or IMS. I will post more info after we secure all
of the appropriate licenses.
-----------------------------
Matt Marsala
Producer
Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Notable threadFlame warPapyrus announces Busch Grand National add-on for NASCAR 2
Papyrus producer Matt Marsala announced a fall add-on for NASCAR Racing 2 based on the Busch Grand National series, with 10–13 tracks, up to 30 drivers and a Busch calendar. He confirmed that the engine could not support separate physics for Grand National cars, so the pack would add only tracks, cars and a calendar. Many welcomed the short tracks, but Barton Brown and others attacked Papyrus over unfixed AI and patch problems, and the long thread descended into bickering.
With Matt Marsala (Papyrus); Jim Sokoloff
Automated summary.
> I am pleased to announce that Papyrus is releasing an add-on package
> for NASCAR Racing 2 this fall based on the Busch Grand National
> series. <snip>
> -----------------------------
> Matt Marsala
> Producer
> Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.
But will it work? Do you guys ever test this stuff -- perhaps with a
variety of mainboards, CPUs, and graphic cards -- to see if there's a
slight chance you might find a small bug every once in a while? Call me
crazy, but it *could* happen that a product of yours might be released
that would actually load up and work right out of the box, with no
patches on top of bandaids on top of field dressings. You never know...
Bart Brown
Quoted text (15 lines)
> I am pleased to announce that Papyrus is releasing an add-on package > for NASCAR Racing 2 this fall based on the Busch Grand National > series. The game will feature 10-13 tracks from the series as well as > up to 30 Grand National drivers. A Busch calendar will also be > included in the package to allow you to compete for the Grand National > championship. > To address the rumors I have read on RAS - no, we will not be > including Daytona or IMS. I will post more info after we secure all > of the appropriate licenses. > ----------------------------- > Matt Marsala > Producer > Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.Cool, Busch race on Sat, followed by a Cup race on Sunday. I wonder, will
there be a difference in performance/handling between the two series? Oh
yeah, a GL version would be nice, my Monster 3D wants to race too......
Dave Baker
Houston, TX
On Wed, 28 May 1997 20:02:03 +0000, "Barton S. Brown"
You are already blasting them and the product hasn't even come out
yet? What does a company have to do to satisfy you people? Give them
a chance for once. I know that there were problems with the N2 patch,
etc. but there is no sense holding a grudge.
Todd
**********************************************
Todd Walker
T-Type on IRC
Homepage: http://cust.iamerica.net/twalker
1986 Buick Regal T-Type
**********************************************
Quoted text (17 lines)
>> I am pleased to announce that Papyrus is releasing an add-on package >> for NASCAR Racing 2 this fall based on the Busch Grand National >> series. ><snip> >> ----------------------------- >> Matt Marsala >> Producer >> Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc. >But will it work? Do you guys ever test this stuff -- perhaps with a >variety of mainboards, CPUs, and graphic cards -- to see if there's a >slight chance you might find a small bug every once in a while? Call me >crazy, but it *could* happen that a product of yours might be released >that would actually load up and work right out of the box, with no >patches on top of bandaids on top of field dressings. You never know... >Bart BrownBart hit it right on the head with his asking if it would work. Hell
They've already produced 3 patches and Nascar2 is still screwed up.
Why shouldn't we hold grudges Hell we payed $50 bucks (at least I did
anyway) for it and here it is almost 6 months later still no fix for
my biggest problem ( AI period, pitting,Caution, etc....) and yet now
they announce an add on for it.
Honestly it appears to me that Papy/Sierra doesn't really give a ***
about this due to the fact that they're trying desperately to get NRO
up and running. In which there will be no pitting or caution problems
due to all human drivers. Charlie Heath acknowledged that there are
problems with the AI but wont reveal how, when, or even if Papy/sierra
palns to fix it. Regardless of whether or not you're having as big a
problem with the AI as some of us are you still should support our
gripe with not getting a fix for it. Like I said once before I didn't
have a lurching problem but I still felt that those of you who did
should have gotten the fix. What we're asking for is no different.
I would say that the (AI) is probably the only bug (that I'm aware of
anyway) left to fix so why do they avoid it like the plague?
You just CAN'T please some people, no matter what you do.
--
Bruce
----
"To be or not to be? Well, I'd rather 'be', if you don't mind!"
YES! Finally! Hickory, Myrtle Beach, Homestead, Nazareth, Milwaukee, and
the REAL short tracks!
> >>The game will feature 10-13 tracks from the series as well as
> >>up to 30 Grand National drivers.
> YES! Finally! Hickory, Myrtle Beach, Homestead, Nazareth,
> Milwaukee, and
> the REAL short tracks!
I hope the Homestead track is the new configuration (true oval, which
is under construction) rather than the rectangle...
Jim
Gees I'm still trying to get through my first championship and you want to give
us more tracks. I'm never gonna get a chance to run GP2 again......<g>
Rob Yates
Australia.
so don't buy it if you don't like it. make your own game. see if u can make
it any better
ALLRIGHT!!!!!
Finally some new tracks that we can all race on instead of the
same old ones just touched up a bit. Just think we can race on South
Boston, Hickory, Nashville, Indianapolis Raceway Park, Homestead
(hopefully with new track configuration), Myrtle Beach, Nazareth,
Milwaukee, Las Vegas, Gateway, California, and Texas. Thats a lot of new
tracks, I'd better get some more memory for my CPU. While your waiting go
visit PIT ROAD at www.pitroad.com.
GREAT Racing to all of ya,
Aaron Markham
PIT ROAD
Geez do you believe this guy? He writes this now but he's the one
that started the ( Boycott the ICR2/N2 converter thread ).
Tom your email address is right on the money
only mispelled a little jyrk == jerk
>Thats a lot of new
> tracks, I'd better get some more memory for my CPU.
More memory isn't really an issue. Only one track is loaded at a time.
More hard drive space, now that's maybe something we all could use... :)
--Jim
Quoted text (8 lines)
> But will it work? Do you guys ever test this stuff -- perhaps with a > variety of mainboards, CPUs, and graphic cards -- to see if there's a > slight chance you might find a small bug every once in a while? Call me > crazy, but it *could* happen that a product of yours might be released > that would actually load up and work right out of the box, with no > patches on top of bandaids on top of field dressings. You never know... > Bart BrownUnfortunately, no. The current engine does not allow for multiple
physical models within the game. We will do what we can to tweak the
driver ratings, but beyond that this product will just include new
tracks, cars, and a calendar.
-----------------------------
Matt Marsala
Producer
Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.
What a load of Horse shit If it did there wouldn't have been a need
for a patch and then they had to patch the patch. and as far as all
the issues being addressed (another load of horse shit) yeah right
Matt are you reading this I personally Emailed you on the AI matter
and you still haven't addressed it. You've answered several post in
here today I'm asking now what about the AI ? When can we see
satisfaction?
Some people have no respect for a Kiss Ass either
"Dont buy the new product" you say. Well what the hell about
the product I've already bought that promised realism.
You say you dont have an AI problem well maybe you got like the only
perfect copy or something I dont know but mine sure is screwed up.
You see I personally like to run with Damage on and its just not
possible to actually run a serious race with the AI as screwed up as
it is. "No-one but you complains" You said that too but has it ever
occurred to you that alot of the people that own Nascar2 dont even
read this Newsgroup. Besides that there are a handful of people in
here that have said that they also experience AI problems. For your
information it has NOTHING to do with being configured to run on ones
system. Everything works fine but the AI is still shitty. Artificial
Intellegence indeed. "it happens every now and then" Well what if
your lurching problem only happened every now and then would you still
expect Papy to fix it? I think yes.
Now I'm done
Matt Marsola We're still waiting for a reply
I hope it is the rectangle to many ovals as it is.
Kerry Grant
Quoted text (11 lines)
> > >>The game will feature 10-13 tracks from the series as well as > > >>up to 30 Grand National drivers. > > YES! Finally! Hickory, Myrtle Beach, Homestead, Nazareth, > > Milwaukee, and > > the REAL short tracks! > I hope the Homestead track is the new configuration (true oval, which > is under construction) rather than the rectangle... > Jim> You are already blasting them and the product hasn't even come out
> yet? What does a company have to do to satisfy you people? Give
>them a chance for once. I know that there were problems with the N2
> patch, etc. but there is no sense holding a grudge.
> Todd
<snippity-doo-dah)
Let's see here:
"What does a company have to do to satisfy you people?"
Ahhh...I'll take a wild shot...deliver on their promises?
"Give them a chance for once."
Which "once" would that be? The first N2 patch? The second? The apparent
inability to address the issues that everybody wanted fixed in the first
place?
Actually, I though I was being rather pleasant. I truly *don't*
understand how a company with Papyrus' intelligence and Sierra's "finger
on the pulse" can design a game for fairly well-defined platforms, the
technical specifications of which are well-known, and still have
incredibly buggy games at release. I'm not a programmer, nor do I play
one on TV, but it seems that with a finite number of board and chip
combinations possible, it should be relatively straightforward to test
the product to the extent that there is SOME confidence it will work out
of the box. If business apps were released this way (well, Microsoft
gets away with it, yes -- but they're the 800-pound exception), the
software companies would not last very long.
If you're willing to accept paying $50-$60 for a game, then having to
patch it repeatedly like an old garbage scow, goody for you. I'm not.
Bart Brown
> N2 worked just fine, right out of the box, on just about everything.<
And that's acceptable?
>Its not Sierra OR papy's job to ensure that YOU have a compatible system, they make the game run on an IBM compatible setup under windows
and under DOS. the rest is up to you.<
Wrong. Sierra/Papyrus knows their market. They know (I should hope) that
people are using Cyrix/AMD/whatever/Matrox/Intergraph/whatever -- the
system requirements on the box state IBM PC or compatible. It's up to
THEM to ensure their product IS compatible with known
commercially-available clones. If it's not, then the box requirements
should state specifically that it's not.
<There were some minor problems with the origional program that people
pointed out and asked to have corrected, these things have been
addressed, and corrections continue on even now to make it the way the
sim-racers in the world WANT it to be.>
Funny, people in this NG haven't considered them "minor problems"
They do if they want to stay in business
As you've amply demonstrated. You don't know me at all, yet you've
referred to me, a complete stranger to you, in the following terms:
"just to try and hammer a little sense into your obviously
sesame seed sized brain running on a quarter-pounder of grease for
fuel"
"stay in your mcnugget munching, french-frie feeding world
and watch nascar on TV."
I don't recall using any defamatory language in this newsgroup to make a
point. Are you so bereft of intelligent argument that *you* have to
resort to this muck?
And then this:
"Leave the sim-world to those of us that are more
than happy to enjoy the game and appreciate having someone else
design-market-and work on it for us instead of wasting our time and
yours by posting this incorrigable drivel about 'making sure things
work'"
I missed the NG announcement about Someone dying and leaving you in
charge. As for "wasting time" by my (according to DOH!TrenT!) insane
insistence that things I purchase work, how much of a waste of time and
money is it when people buy products in the belief that they will
perform as advertised, and then spend the next several months
downloading patches and reconfiguring systems, just to discover NEW
bugs. Caveat venditor...
Physician, heal thyself.
No you didn't, you just gave in to an immature desire to proclaim to the
world that I am an idiot so *you* could look good by comparison. I don't
think it worked.
BTW, did you ever own a Yugo?
Bart Brown
>I am pleased to announce that Papyrus is releasing an add-on package
>for NASCAR Racing 2 this fall based on the Busch Grand National
>series. The game will feature 10-13 tracks from the series as well as
>up to 30 Grand National drivers. A Busch calendar will also be
>included in the package to allow you to compete for the Grand National
>championship.
YEA!!! MORE TRACKS!! BUSCH SERIES!!!! HELL YES!!
Er.....I mean. Cool. <G>
Benjamin (who is _obviously_ looking forward to this)
<<If your not going to put up with it, DON'T and go away..>>
Dohhhhhh! Excellent riposte, dude -- right on the money. You've
certainly taught me the meaning of humility...
Bart
Wayne -- It's a school night, isn't it?
Bart
Quoted text (15 lines)
> I am pleased to announce that Papyrus is releasing an add-on package > for NASCAR Racing 2 this fall based on the Busch Grand National > series. The game will feature 10-13 tracks from the series as well as > up to 30 Grand National drivers. A Busch calendar will also be > included in the package to allow you to compete for the Grand National > championship. > To address the rumors I have read on RAS - no, we will not be > including Daytona or IMS. I will post more info after we secure all > of the appropriate licenses. > ----------------------------- > Matt Marsala > Producer > Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.Quoted text (9 lines)
|! Official French r.a.s.s.m. Cool guy !| |! Official French r.a.s. cool guy !| |! Official Star Wars geek fan !| |! Official Anti-trekkies SW *** !| |! Official Jedi Master of NSWL !| |! Official SW Gonk religion fan !| |! #1 rec.autos.simulator post writer !| |! Best French SimRacer on the 'net !| |! Official Annoying long signature guy (thanks Eric!) !|Quoted text (37 lines)
>> You are already blasting them and the product hasn't even come out >> yet? What does a company have to do to satisfy you people? Give >>them a chance for once. I know that there were problems with the N2 >> patch, etc. but there is no sense holding a grudge. >> Todd ><snippity-doo-dah) >Let's see here: >"What does a company have to do to satisfy you people?" >Ahhh...I'll take a wild shot...deliver on their promises? >"Give them a chance for once." >Which "once" would that be? The first N2 patch? The second? The apparent >inability to address the issues that everybody wanted fixed in the first >place? >Actually, I though I was being rather pleasant. I truly *don't* >understand how a company with Papyrus' intelligence and Sierra's "finger >on the pulse" can design a game for fairly well-defined platforms, the >technical specifications of which are well-known, and still have >incredibly buggy games at release. I'm not a programmer, nor do I play >one on TV, but it seems that with a finite number of board and chip >combinations possible, it should be relatively straightforward to test >the product to the extent that there is SOME confidence it will work out >of the box. If business apps were released this way (well, Microsoft >gets away with it, yes -- but they're the 800-pound exception), the >software companies would not last very long. >If you're willing to accept paying $50-$60 for a game, then having to >patch it repeatedly like an old garbage scow, goody for you. I'm not. >Bart Brown>> so don't buy it if you don't like it. make your own game. see if u can make
>>it any better
>Geez do you believe this guy? He writes this now but he's the one
>that started the ( Boycott the ICR2/N2 converter thread ).
>Tom your email address is right on the money
>only mispelled a little jyrk == jerk
at least i won't comment on a damn product before it releases. Like I said
if you think is buggy, go make one that's not. Also what different does it
make if I talk about the ICR2 converter. I said it is my opinion. But did
you? I don't think so.
Quoted text (32 lines)
>>N2 worked just fine, right out of the box, on just about everything. >What a load of Horse shit If it did there wouldn't have been a need >for a patch and then they had to patch the patch. and as far as all >the issues being addressed (another load of horse shit) yeah right >Matt are you reading this I personally Emailed you on the AI matter >and you still haven't addressed it. You've answered several post in >here today I'm asking now what about the AI ? When can we see >satisfaction? >>Some people have no respect for anyone. >Some people have no respect for a Kiss Ass either >"Dont buy the new product" you say. Well what the hell about >the product I've already bought that promised realism. >You say you dont have an AI problem well maybe you got like the only >perfect copy or something I dont know but mine sure is screwed up. >You see I personally like to run with Damage on and its just not >possible to actually run a serious race with the AI as screwed up as >it is. "No-one but you complains" You said that too but has it ever >occurred to you that alot of the people that own Nascar2 dont even >read this Newsgroup. Besides that there are a handful of people in >here that have said that they also experience AI problems. For your >information it has NOTHING to do with being configured to run on ones >system. Everything works fine but the AI is still shitty. Artificial >Intellegence indeed. "it happens every now and then" Well what if >your lurching problem only happened every now and then would you still >expect Papy to fix it? I think yes. >Now I'm done >Matt Marsola We're still waiting for a replyQuoted text (13 lines)
> >> so don't buy it if you don't like it. make your own game. see if u can > make > >>it any better > >Geez do you believe this guy? He writes this now but he's the one > >that started the ( Boycott the ICR2/N2 converter thread ). > >Tom your email address is right on the money > >only mispelled a little jyrk == jerk > at least i won't comment on a damn product before it releases. Like I said > if you think is buggy, go make one that's not. Also what different does it > make if I talk about the ICR2 converter. I said it is my opinion. But did > you? I don't think so.Call me puerile but ROFLPIMP, and I don't do that very often :)
--
Cheers!
John (SRN-Europe)
(Remove "NOSPAM" from address before replying...)
Just change the driver strength from 100% to 99%. I've found that works
pretty
good to simulate BGN racing.
DNR Enterprises
http://members.aol.com/dredick825/index.html
===============================================
Home of the largest BGN site on the 'Net...49 cars and counting!
Why only 30? Having only 39 now is bad enough!
Earl
hey bart, chill out a little! :)
It's postings like this that keep companies from posting and helping
users. Give them a chance.
--
Lannie Schafroth
Pathworks Network Administrator Iowa Network Services, Inc.
Voice: 515 830-0443 4201 Corporate Drive
Fax: 515 830-0123 West Des Moines, IA 50266
Any statements herein are my own opinion and not that of my employer.
Quoted text (42 lines)
>>>N2 worked just fine, right out of the box, on just about everything. >>What a load of Horse shit If it did there wouldn't have been a need >>for a patch and then they had to patch the patch. and as far as all >>the issues being addressed (another load of horse shit) yeah right >>Matt are you reading this I personally Emailed you on the AI matter >>and you still haven't addressed it. You've answered several post in >>here today I'm asking now what about the AI ? When can we see >>satisfaction? >>>Some people have no respect for anyone. >>Some people have no respect for a Kiss Ass either >>"Dont buy the new product" you say. Well what the hell about >>the product I've already bought that promised realism. >>You say you dont have an AI problem well maybe you got like the only >>perfect copy or something I dont know but mine sure is screwed up. >>You see I personally like to run with Damage on and its just not >>possible to actually run a serious race with the AI as screwed up as >>it is. "No-one but you complains" You said that too but has it ever >>occurred to you that alot of the people that own Nascar2 dont even >>read this Newsgroup. Besides that there are a handful of people in >>here that have said that they also experience AI problems. For your >>information it has NOTHING to do with being configured to run on ones >>system. Everything works fine but the AI is still shitty. Artificial >>Intellegence indeed. "it happens every now and then" Well what if >>your lurching problem only happened every now and then would you still >>expect Papy to fix it? I think yes. >>Now I'm done >>Matt Marsola We're still waiting for a reply > AI works just fine if YOU KNOW how to drive around the track. Apparently >you have no clue of what you are doing. You probably put your car on the >outside part of the pits, use the apron to pass, jump the freaking start, >etc... Learn how to play with the AI first before you start ***ing about >it. >Return the freaking game if you don't want it instead being a dork here. If >you want it so perfect, write your own if you can or you can go real racing. >There isn't any sim that is perfect. So shut the hell upQuoted text (13 lines)
> >But will it work? Do you guys ever test this stuff -- perhaps with a > hey bart, chill out a little! :) > It's postings like this that keep companies from posting and helping > users. Give them a chance. > -- > Lannie Schafroth > Pathworks Network Administrator Iowa Network Services, Inc. > Voice: 515 830-0443 4201 Corporate Drive > Fax: 515 830-0123 West Des Moines, IA 50266 > Any statements herein are my own opinion and not that of my employer.Quoted text (19 lines)
> > >> so don't buy it if you don't like it. make your own game. see if u can > > make > > >>it any better > > >Geez do you believe this guy? He writes this now but he's the one > > >that started the ( Boycott the ICR2/N2 converter thread ). > > >Tom your email address is right on the money > > >only mispelled a little jyrk == jerk > > at least i won't comment on a damn product before it releases. Like I said > > if you think is buggy, go make one that's not. Also what different does it > > make if I talk about the ICR2 converter. I said it is my opinion. But did > > you? I don't think so. > Girls, Girls!! It's amazing what kind of shameless bickering one > product announcement can generate. > God Bless, > SteveQuoted text (46 lines)
>> >But will it work? Do you guys ever test this stuff -- perhaps with a >> hey bart, chill out a little! :) >> It's postings like this that keep companies from posting and helping >> users. Give them a chance. >> -- >> Lannie Schafroth >> Pathworks Network Administrator Iowa Network Services, Inc. >> Voice: 515 830-0443 4201 Corporate Drive >> Fax: 515 830-0123 West Des Moines, IA 50266 >> Any statements herein are my own opinion and not that of my employer. >You're absolutely right, Lonnie -- I don't know how I could have been >such a selfish and short-sighted fool. Thanks to you and TrenT and >Little Tommy for setting me on the right path. I realize now it was just >stupid of me to expect a company to release a product that actually >worked as advertised. I mean, if the wheels fell off my new car, I >wouldn't have any right to complain, would I? Same thing here. I don't >know what came over me. >Please Papyrus/Sierra -- don't take the ravings of an anal-retentive >lunatic to represent the majority opinion in this newsgroup you have so >blessed and nurtured after taking our money. Really, most people here >ENJOY a product they purchase and then can't use for X number of >weeks/months until a patch comes out that they can't use for X number of >weeks or months, ad infinitum. I know this is only a niche market for >you, but please don't take your shiny toys away and cut your own throats >by not promoting your ever-improving ever-improving ever-improving >ever-improving ever-improving ever-improving ever-improving products >that we stand in line to buy like ***s on payday. >And if some company comes along and actually produces a sim that works >like it says on the box it will, you know my personal loyalty to >Sierra/Papyrus -- because of your responsiveness, caring, and concern >for your customers, of course -- will ensure that I would never, ever >covet another company's product, no matter how good it is. >Tommy, Trent, Lannie -- heap on me whatever punishment you feel would >somehow appease the gods at Sierra/Pap and bring peace and harmony once >again to your lives. >I humbly beseech you, in the name of Leisure Suit Larry, >Bart Brown: Just change the driver strength from 100% to 99%. I've found that works
: pretty
: good to simulate BGN racing.
That may work for the AI, but how does one handicap the Human driver?
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Quoted text (29 lines)
>> > >> so don't buy it if you don't like it. make your own game. see if u can >> > make >> > >>it any better >> > >Geez do you believe this guy? He writes this now but he's the one >> > >that started the ( Boycott the ICR2/N2 converter thread ). >> > >Tom your email address is right on the money >> > >only mispelled a little jyrk == jerk >> > at least i won't comment on a damn product before it releases. Like I said >> > if you think is buggy, go make one that's not. Also what different does it >> > make if I talk about the ICR2 converter. I said it is my opinion. But did >> > you? I don't think so. >> Girls, Girls!! It's amazing what kind of shameless bickering one >> product announcement can generate. >> God Bless, >> Steve >Honestly, Tom makes a very valid point. >#1 people complain that the game is a sim and that it should be >completely realistic BEcause it is a sim. > I say its as GD close as it is going to get.. The fact is, when >things are made and sold in the world they ARE NOT REQUIRED to be >perfect...and anytime you buy something you take the risk that it WON'T >deliver what it promises.says...
Why would they write the patch if they don't give you people enough
supports.
Quoted text (50 lines)
>>> >But will it work? Do you guys ever test this stuff -- perhaps with a >>> hey bart, chill out a little! :) >>> It's postings like this that keep companies from posting and helping >>> users. Give them a chance. >>> -- >>> Lannie Schafroth >>> Pathworks Network Administrator Iowa Network Services, Inc. >>> Voice: 515 830-0443 4201 Corporate Drive >>> Fax: 515 830-0123 West Des Moines, IA 50266 >>> Any statements herein are my own opinion and not that of my employer. >>You're absolutely right, Lonnie -- I don't know how I could have been >>such a selfish and short-sighted fool. Thanks to you and TrenT and >>Little Tommy for setting me on the right path. I realize now it was just >>stupid of me to expect a company to release a product that actually >>worked as advertised. I mean, if the wheels fell off my new car, I >>wouldn't have any right to complain, would I? Same thing here. I don't >>know what came over me. >>Please Papyrus/Sierra -- don't take the ravings of an anal-retentive >>lunatic to represent the majority opinion in this newsgroup you have so >>blessed and nurtured after taking our money. Really, most people here >>ENJOY a product they purchase and then can't use for X number of >>weeks/months until a patch comes out that they can't use for X number of >>weeks or months, ad infinitum. I know this is only a niche market for >>you, but please don't take your shiny toys away and cut your own throats >>by not promoting your ever-improving ever-improving ever-improving >>ever-improving ever-improving ever-improving ever-improving products >>that we stand in line to buy like ***s on payday. >>And if some company comes along and actually produces a sim that works >>like it says on the box it will, you know my personal loyalty to >>Sierra/Papyrus -- because of your responsiveness, caring, and concern >>for your customers, of course -- will ensure that I would never, ever >>covet another company's product, no matter how good it is. >>Tommy, Trent, Lannie -- heap on me whatever punishment you feel would >>somehow appease the gods at Sierra/Pap and bring peace and harmony once >>again to your lives. >>I humbly beseech you, in the name of Leisure Suit Larry, >>Bart Brown >Bart you are the man brother, I'm glad to see somebody with some >balls. Papyrus we are not happy with the support that you've provided >we demand satisfaction. We DEMAND it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I really don't see how anyone can argue that the AI is fine, so I agree
with you there. Unfortunately has Charlie has said, it's beyond the scope
of a simple patch. The AI has continually evolved as part of the
progression of games: ICR, N1, ICR2, and now N2. It would seem as though
it's not a simple matter of just making a few changes, and would require an
extensive rewite of the game (i.e. N3, but not as an upgraded N2). I would
like to see this as much as everyone else, but it may be awhile. If I had
to guess I'd say we may first see the new AI in Grand Prix Legends, as that
should pretty much be a completely new sim from the ground up. Perhaps if
it works there, N3 can come as a derivitive of it.
--
Quoted text (39 lines)
> > But will it work? Do you guys ever test this stuff -- perhaps with a > > variety of mainboards, CPUs, and graphic cards -- to see if there's a > > slight chance you might find a small bug every once in a while? Call me > > crazy, but it *could* happen that a product of yours might be released > > that would actually load up and work right out of the box, with no > > patches on top of bandaids on top of field dressings. You never know... > > Bart Brown > You know...THESE type of comments are what***me off beyond > belief....just to try and hammer a little sense into your obviously > sesame seed sized brain running on a quarter-pounder of grease for > fuel:: > N2 worked just fine, right out of the box, on just about everything. Its > not Sierra OR papy's job to ensure that YOU have a compatible system, > they make the game run on an IBM compatible setup under windows and > under DOS. the rest is up to you. There were some minor problems with > the origional program that people pointed out and asked to have > corrected, these things have been addressed, and corrections continue on > even now to make it the way the sim-racers in the world WANT it to be. > Papy doesn't HAVE to do any of this. If you want to flame and***and > *** and moan about it not being JUST the way YOU want it, DONT buy the > damned thing, stay in your mcnugget munching, french-frie feeding world > and watch nascar on TV. Leave the sim-world to those of us that are more > than happy to enjoy the game and appreciate having someone else > design-market-and work on it for us instead of wasting our time and > yours by posting this incorrigable drivel about "making sure things > work" > Some people have no respect for anyone. > GET OVER YOURSELF. > there i'm done now...just needed to say that. > TrenT > -- > CatchMeIfU.........................Can*all extraneous BS cut out since we know what this was about already ;)*
In all the crossfire i think the point was mislaid, My origional problem
wasn't with you asking about a fix, or even posting again and again about
it, but it was the WAY the posts were made, the point i wanted to make
was that when you want to make a comment, try being civil, yeah maybe
they wont answer you, thats up to them, still there is no reasoning for
screaming and slamming them. as i've said its THEIR option to put any
further effort into. its not required. They don't HAVE to...you see?
Fortunately for us they are working on things and do listen to us
here. But all of us, myself included need to remember that there is no
real reasoning for screaming hollaring and insults in these posts, THATS
was teh point of my origional statements way back when...and thats what I
think everyone has forgotten. We all read these posts to learn about new
things and to post about problems we find or ideas we come up with.
Let's just be civil about it.
I thank you skarecrow for posting in a pleasent and calm manner to my
letter, it was a rephreshing change and was much more easily read and
understood... thank you.
TrenT
--
CathMeIfU.......................................Can
<Major snip>
<snip>
real reasoning for screaming hollaring and insults in these posts, THATS
was teh point of my origional statements way back when...and thats what
I think everyone has forgotten.<
TrenT, you old peacemaker you--
Not to belabor the obvious, but take a moment to go back and re-read
both *my* original posts and *yours*. Take your time. Read them aloud.
Ask a friend to read them, without revealing who authored which. Ask
your friend about the meaning of the word "civility". Ask your friend
which post was an uncivil, insulting, and unwarranted personal roasting.
Have a coke and a couple aspirin, take a nap. Meditate on the oneness of
all things and the world of cause and effect, and the famous Zen phrase
"form is emptiness, emptiness is form". Then write back.
Have a great day
Bart
Quoted text (15 lines)
> I am pleased to announce that Papyrus is releasing an add-on package > for NASCAR Racing 2 this fall based on the Busch Grand National > series. The game will feature 10-13 tracks from the series as well as > up to 30 Grand National drivers. A Busch calendar will also be > included in the package to allow you to compete for the Grand National > championship. > To address the rumors I have read on RAS - no, we will not be > including Daytona or IMS. I will post more info after we secure all > of the appropriate licenses. > ----------------------------- > Matt Marsala > Producer > Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.Quoted text (15 lines)
> > I am pleased to announce that Papyrus is releasing an add-on package > > for NASCAR Racing 2 this fall based on the Busch Grand National > > series. The game will feature 10-13 tracks from the series as well as > > up to 30 Grand National drivers. A Busch calendar will also be > > included in the package to allow you to compete for the Grand National > > championship. > > To address the rumors I have read on RAS - no, we will not be > > including Daytona or IMS. I will post more info after we secure all > > of the appropriate licenses. > > ----------------------------- > > Matt Marsala > > Producer > > Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.The only road course the BGN'ers run on is Watkins Glen. The rest are
ovals.
DNR Enterprises
[link lost in import]
================================================
Home of the #1 BGN site on the 'Net...50 cars, utilities, and more!
Quoted text (24 lines)
> > > I am pleased to announce that Papyrus is releasing an add-on package > > > for NASCAR Racing 2 this fall based on the Busch Grand National > > > series. The game will feature 10-13 tracks from the series as well as > > > up to 30 Grand National drivers. A Busch calendar will also be > > > included in the package to allow you to compete for the Grand National > > > championship. > > > To address the rumors I have read on RAS - no, we will not be > > > including Daytona or IMS. I will post more info after we secure all > > > of the appropriate licenses. > > > ----------------------------- > > > Matt Marsala > > > Producer > > > Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc. > Any new roadcourses? Or don`t they run them in BGN? > -- > Matthew Birger Knutsen > Cheek Racing Cars > Flatebyveien 5, N-1792 Norway > Fax (+47) 69 19 02 55 > Mobile: (+47) 92 44 66 50Well said......
--
Lannie Schafroth
Pathworks Network Administrator Iowa Network Services, Inc.
Voice: 515 830-0443 4201 Corporate Drive
Fax: 515 830-0123 West Des Moines, IA 50266
Any statements herein are my own opinion and not that of my employer.
Quoted text (25 lines)
> > Some people have no respect for anyone. > >> GET OVER YOURSELF. > >> there i'm done now...just needed to say that. > >> TrenT > >> -- > >> CatchMeIfU.........................Can > >Well Done Trent !!!!!!!!!!!!!! > >'nough said. > >Mike > Well said...... > -- > Lannie Schafroth > Pathworks Network Administrator Iowa Network Services, Inc. > Voice: 515 830-0443 4201 Corporate Drive > Fax: 515 830-0123 West Des Moines, IA 50266 > Any statements herein are my own opinion and not that of my employer.> >The game will feature 10-13 tracks from the series as well as
> >up to 30 Grand National drivers.
> Why only 30? Having only 39 now is bad enough!
Licensing, no doubt. Just as now, you'll very likely be able to import
other drivers and car paint jobs from the 'net. That sentence doesn't
imply that you can have only 30 in a race, merely that only some number
will be included in the BGN pack...
---Jim
*ROTFL*
Yes bart, again I AM sorry that my post was directerd at you, I have no
beef with you personally. but it seems as though we needed something to
get people to stop and think, maybe I was wrong, and if so, I am sorry.
But, we're thinking now, aren't we?
I hope there's no hard feelings, Again My blasting wasn't personal to
you, but to the general method of posting that we all have used in the
past...I'm sorry if it came at your expense.
TrenT
--
CatchMeIfU.........................Can
No problem, TrenT; but please, in future, forward all complaints,
gripes, beefs, soliloquies, calumny, vituperation, and any questions
about life in general to:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
To whom I have given complete power of attorney in all matters relating
to automotive simulators and outer space adventures. He the MAN!
Bart
Quoted text (11 lines)
> > >The game will feature 10-13 tracks from the series as well as > > >up to 30 Grand National drivers. > > Why only 30? Having only 39 now is bad enough! > Licensing, no doubt. Just as now, you'll very likely be able to import > other drivers and car paint jobs from the 'net. That sentence doesn't > imply that you can have only 30 in a race, merely that only some number > will be included in the BGN pack... > ---JimQuoted text (17 lines)
> > I am pleased to announce that Papyrus is releasing an add-on package > > for NASCAR Racing 2 this fall based on the Busch Grand National > > series. > <snip> > > ----------------------------- > > Matt Marsala > > Producer > > Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc. > But will it work? Do you guys ever test this stuff -- perhaps with a > variety of mainboards, CPUs, and graphic cards -- to see if there's a > slight chance you might find a small bug every once in a while? Call me > crazy, but it *could* happen that a product of yours might be released > that would actually load up and work right out of the box, with no > patches on top of bandaids on top of field dressings. You never know... > Bart Brown<badly needed snip>
>Papy gave you the patches for free.<
Donny boyo-- That's an illusion of the worst sort. Think about it.
BTW, if you hadn't caught the gist of my other posts, there is no one
who could possibly despise the practices, products, and policies of
Microsoft more than I, so comparing Sierra/Papyrus in any way with the
Gates Machine is, in the words of the late, great Samuel Johnson, "like
setting the point of precedence between a louse and a flea, sir."
Get my drift?
Bart Brown
Okay, I'll jump in to the fire here. Are we going to fix the AI in
NASCAR 2...no we are not. The resources needed for that are working
on other projects. Could we take them off and have them work on
fixing the AI in NASCAR 2, yes we could. We could also have them fix
the AI in IndyCar 1, but we won't. If we did that, then we would
never be able to move on to other products. I can assure you, we did
what we could for NASCAR 2 and the AI. Are there problems? Yes, but
we are working on fixing those issues in future products.
Do we test our software? You bet...we spend lots of time and money
testing our games. Does that mean we have tested every single
possible configuration on the market...no...we have not...that would
take years to do. Can we spend more time testing our products? Yes
we can, and in the future we will.
I am sorry if that is not the answer you wanted to here but it is the
truth. I can promise you that we are dedicated to making the best
racing sims on the market. We will continue to raise the bar and do
the best games we possibly can. Will they ever be perfect? No,
probably not. But we will keep trying.
Adam Levesque
General Manager
Quoted text (32 lines)
>>N2 worked just fine, right out of the box, on just about everything. >What a load of Horse shit If it did there wouldn't have been a need >for a patch and then they had to patch the patch. and as far as all >the issues being addressed (another load of horse shit) yeah right >Matt are you reading this I personally Emailed you on the AI matter >and you still haven't addressed it. You've answered several post in >here today I'm asking now what about the AI ? When can we see >satisfaction? >>Some people have no respect for anyone. >Some people have no respect for a Kiss Ass either >"Dont buy the new product" you say. Well what the hell about >the product I've already bought that promised realism. >You say you dont have an AI problem well maybe you got like the only >perfect copy or something I dont know but mine sure is screwed up. >You see I personally like to run with Damage on and its just not >possible to actually run a serious race with the AI as screwed up as >it is. "No-one but you complains" You said that too but has it ever >occurred to you that alot of the people that own Nascar2 dont even >read this Newsgroup. Besides that there are a handful of people in >here that have said that they also experience AI problems. For your >information it has NOTHING to do with being configured to run on ones >system. Everything works fine but the AI is still shitty. Artificial >Intellegence indeed. "it happens every now and then" Well what if >your lurching problem only happened every now and then would you still >expect Papy to fix it? I think yes. >Now I'm done >Matt Marsola We're still waiting for a replyQuoted text (63 lines)
> Okay, I'll jump in to the fire here. Are we going to fix the AI in > NASCAR 2...no we are not. The resources needed for that are working > on other projects. Could we take them off and have them work on > fixing the AI in NASCAR 2, yes we could. We could also have them fix > the AI in IndyCar 1, but we won't. If we did that, then we would > never be able to move on to other products. I can assure you, we did > what we could for NASCAR 2 and the AI. Are there problems? Yes, but > we are working on fixing those issues in future products. > Do we test our software? You bet...we spend lots of time and money > testing our games. Does that mean we have tested every single > possible configuration on the market...no...we have not...that would > take years to do. Can we spend more time testing our products? Yes > we can, and in the future we will. > I am sorry if that is not the answer you wanted to here but it is the > truth. I can promise you that we are dedicated to making the best > racing sims on the market. We will continue to raise the bar and do > the best games we possibly can. Will they ever be perfect? No, > probably not. But we will keep trying. > Adam Levesque > General Manager > >>N2 worked just fine, right out of the box, on just about everything. > >What a load of Horse shit If it did there wouldn't have been a need > >for a patch and then they had to patch the patch. and as far as all > >the issues being addressed (another load of horse shit) yeah right > >Matt are you reading this I personally Emailed you on the AI matter > >and you still haven't addressed it. You've answered several post in > >here today I'm asking now what about the AI ? When can we see > >satisfaction? > >>Some people have no respect for anyone. > >Some people have no respect for a Kiss Ass either > >"Dont buy the new product" you say. Well what the hell about > >the product I've already bought that promised realism. > >You say you dont have an AI problem well maybe you got like the only > >perfect copy or something I dont know but mine sure is screwed up. > >You see I personally like to run with Damage on and its just not > >possible to actually run a serious race with the AI as screwed up as > >it is. "No-one but you complains" You said that too but has it ever > >occurred to you that alot of the people that own Nascar2 dont even > >read this Newsgroup. Besides that there are a handful of people in > >here that have said that they also experience AI problems. For your > >information it has NOTHING to do with being configured to run on ones > >system. Everything works fine but the AI is still shitty. Artificial > >Intellegence indeed. "it happens every now and then" Well what if > >your lurching problem only happened every now and then would you still > >expect Papy to fix it? I think yes. > >Now I'm done > >Matt Marsola We're still waiting for a replySo that means they want more of your money. And oh those products will
work.
Ha!ha!ha!ha!ha!ha!ha! Great customer relations straight from the companies
mouth. I hope the marketing director gets ahold of this.
Adam -- just some selected quotes:
Maybe I'm overly analytical, but it's very hard to reconcile your
assertion that you are "dedicated to making the best racing sims on the
market" with your earlier statement that "in future" you will spend more
time testing your products. Everything in your message is future,
future, future...you're "working on fixing those issues in future
products," "We will continue to raise the bar..."
What you and Sierra seem to be saying here -- correct me if I'm wrong,
please -- is pretty much what several people in this newsgroup -- myself
included -- have been saying all along: "We got the product out, even
though we knew it wasn't quite ready for prime-time, so we could make
some money. Sure there are problems, but trust us -- our future releases
will be MUCH better."
I think in the world of commerce, most people base trust or lack thereof
on past performance. Please explain to us what there is about your past
performance that would make us likely to trust that your *future*
performance isn't going to be much the same?
I'd also like to know, although you certainly have no obligation to tell
me, what has become of Papyrus in the big Sierra melting-pot. As I had
mentioned before, the latest issue of "Interaction" contains -- as far
as I can tell -- not a single reference to the company once known as
Papyrus. Yet your address seems to indicate that Papyrus still survives
as a separate entity. You may think I ask this as an item of pure
gossip, but what I'm really interested in is the level of autonomy a
company like yours can retain in a corporate environment like Sierra's.
If, as it seems, the answer is spinning down to "none", then that says a
great deal about the future of games gathered under Sierra's wing.
Regards
Bart Brown
Quoted text (8 lines)
> I can assure you, we did what we could for NASCAR 2 and the AI. Are there problems? Yes, but we are working on fixing those issues in future products. > Can we spend more time testing our products? Yes we can, and in the future we will. > I can promise you that we are dedicated to making the best racing sims on the market. We will continue to raise the bar and do the best games we possibly can. > Adam Levesque > General Manager >Quoted text (8 lines)
>Okay, I'll jump in to the fire here. Are we going to fix the AI in >NASCAR 2...no we are not. The resources needed for that are working >on other projects. Could we take them off and have them work on >fixing the AI in NASCAR 2, yes we could. We could also have them fix >the AI in IndyCar 1, but we won't. If we did that, then we would >never be able to move on to other products. I can assure you, we did >what we could for NASCAR 2 and the AI. Are there problems? Yes, but >we are working on fixing those issues in future products.>>So that means they want more of your money. And oh those products will
>>work.
>>Ha!ha!ha!ha!ha!ha!ha! Great customer relations straight from the companies
>>mouth. I hope the marketing director gets ahold of this.
Come ON, dude...get a life. Like Adam stated, they CAN'T possibly test
every game for EVERY type of configuration (different video cards, sound
cards, CPU's, mother boards...). I'd like to see YOU take the time to develop
a SIM like N2 and test it out on EVERY single type of 'puter there is, and
then YOU see how long it takes....
Jimmy
Julian,
I was referring to trying a single game (or sim), even games like Quake,
Doom, Flight Simulator, ANYTHING really...
I guess that's why they put MINIMUM requirements on the side of the box, and
not MAXIMUM....
No, this has nothin' to with Hawaii.
Jimmy
Quoted text (13 lines)
>>>Err.. "Public Beta"????? Umm.. Hawaii?? Do you mean something like >>>that??; ) >>>Julian "Mr. Turtle" Data > Julian, > I was referring to trying a single game (or sim), even games like Quake, >Doom, Flight Simulator, ANYTHING really... > I guess that's why they put MINIMUM requirements on the side of the box, and >not MAXIMUM.... > No, this has nothin' to with Hawaii. > Jimmy> I'd like to see YOU take the time to develop
> a SIM like N2 and test it out on EVERY single
> type of 'puter there is, and then YOU see how
> long it takes....
It doesn't even need to be something as complicated
as a racing sim... *Any* software program is going to
have problems on *somebody's* machine... Case in
point: I installed a clock utility on my computer. It
dings every hour... it bugged me, so I took it off...
deleted it completely... but yet my computer still
dings.... every hour.... stupid bug from a tiny utility
and the one-man development team doesn't have
a clue what's wrong...
- Mike.
================================================================
= R.I.P. Scott Brayton: February 20, 1959 - May 17, 1996
= R.I.P. Jeff Krosnoff: September 24, 1964 - July 14, 1996
= R.I.P. Jim Chapman: January 24, 1916 - October 10, 1996
================================================================
I am not even referring to the simple fact that some of their programs
don't work on some machines. It is their take it and stick it attitudes
that bother me. Without the customers they have no business. They should
be gracious that we bought their product and yet what I have read in the
posts from this company, is that we are here for them and not the other
way around.
Now if they don't plan to support the customers and what they ask for,
then maybe thaey could at least offer them their money back. I have
enjoyed my products over the years and am quite satisfied. The difference
is that I haven't bought Nascar Racing 2. You see I could care less about
Nascar, but I can see where these people are coming from. I bought Indycar
2 in February 1996 and now we find out that Sierra has abandoned this
program only a little over a year. Thank god for this newsgroup or there
would never have been any updates on this product.
Just remember what Ghandi said and he did say it. You are here for the
customers. The customers are not here for you. We can spend our
entertainment dollars elsewhere and then where will your company be.
People in this newsgroup are not trying to pester you about issues. Some
of these questions come from new people that have just started out on the
net and this may be the first time that they have asked one of these
questions that you have read a thousand times. So have some patience it
really does pay.
> Yeah but it does have everything to do with customer support I suggest
> you read his reply again. Adam clearly states they will not fix N2.
> They only plan to address issues like the AI in "future products."
When you bought N2, did you buy some kind of package for a lifetime
subscription to all NASCAR-related products that Papyrus ever released?
I sure didn't see that bundle offered.
N2 is a finished product, with some flaws; N3 will address some of those
flaws, but it will probably not be PERFECT. Remember, "shipping" is a
feature too. N2 might be short something which really torques you, but
it's shipped, and lots of people are enjoying the best NASCAR simulator
available today.
On-going support for show-stoppers should always be a priority with
companies, but no company can afford to continually pour resources into
improving existing products for free. That's what the next rev is for.
Ship the one you've got, patch what NEEDS patched, and move on to
producing the next killer racing sim.
---Jim Sokoloff
>It doesn't even need to be something as complicated
>as a racing sim... *Any* software program is going to
>have problems on *somebody's* machine...
True, but this is more of a comment on current operating systems like
Windows and their limitations. With reliable, consistently functioning
operating systems (such as DOS for example) is was possible (and much
easier!) to write software that worked on all machines.
Joe
>When you bought N2, did you buy some kind of package for a lifetime
>subscription to all NASCAR-related products that Papyrus ever released?
>I sure didn't see that bundle offered.
No but I did purchase Nascar2 under a false impression expecting and
I quote from the summer 1997 issue of Interaction page 47. " includes
16 different tracks, all featuring incredible realism." this was taken
from the Nascar2 adverti***t on that page. The AI is so screwed up
how can they promise "Incredible realism" on all tracks. Hell the
General manager has admitted himself that the AI has problems. Not
only did he admit it but also came across with a I dont give a shit
attitude as well.
As far as shipping being a feature thats about the silliest thing I've
heard yet in the AI argument. Of course if you feel its a feature you
can bet you paid for that too.
On-going support for show-stoppers should always be a priority with
I agree that all companies should learn and apply remedies to their
mistakes into new products but dont realease a half ass program
(knowingly) and then deny customers support for it. When I say Half
ass I mean the sims really only good for one thing and thats online
racing. It's very obvious that Papyrus/Sierra released the sim like
it is because they're more interested in getting NRO going in which
there will be no need for AI due to human drivers and I might add they
released it in time for the Christmas cahs in. We're not dumb-asses
you know. Then on top of that to have the General Manager himself
admit that they thoroughly tested N2 ( if they did then they certainly
knew it was screwed up.) He also said they did their best with N2
certainly sounds to me like they knew it was there. Then he said "No
We're NOT going to fix it." You expect us to bow down and take that
lightly? Hell no!! He also said "we will continue to raise the bar."
I believe they need to lower it a bit now they cant get over this
hurdle so why would they want to try to jump the next one? I'll tell
ya why because they've already got your money for N2.
The whole point is they knew it had problems when we bought it and we
didn't but now that we do (which now they admit) they say too bad.
What the hell kind of customer support is that?
Ding,Ding Ding Ding (heard in background)
is that you?
Quoted text (8 lines)
>When you bought N2, did you buy some kind of package for a lifetime >subscription to all NASCAR-related products that Papyrus ever released? >I sure didn't see that bundle offered. >N2 is a finished product, with some flaws; N3 will address some of those >flaws, but it will probably not be PERFECT. >---Jim SokoloffSure, the AI has problems, and yes Adam has admitted that it has. Would
you like him to do otherwise? Should development on future products
cease so that the NASCAR2 AI can be fixed? Well, I'm not alone in my
opinion: NASCAR2 is perfectly playable in its current condition. Hey
guys relax, this is a game after all - it's not a military simulation
with billions of dollars spent on getting every aspect of it working
perfectly, and you probably spent less than $60 to own the best racing
package on a PC. Not bad, I'd say. Pretty much every game product on
the market today has its flaws. Do you play Red Alert? What about the
AI in this game? Everyone I know thinks RA is a superb game - yes it
is, but don't tell me the AI is without its problems (sure it's neat
considering the real-time element, but there's a long way to go). And
since my work revolves around Lotus Notes, cc:Mail and Exchange, I can
confidently say that complex business software is just the same - even
Lotus and Microsoft can't always squash the bugs, and we're in big money
territory here.
I'm curious to know that given a certain number of designers, artists,
developers and an amount of cash, what your project outline for NASCAR 3
or Grand Prix Legends might look like. How much of a resource (man
years) would you like commited to AI code, and what measures would you
have in place to ensure that at the end of the development cycle, that
your AI was left with no significant operational issues. And how would
you KNOW that no bugs remained? The answer is simple - you can't know.
At the end of development, the code is frozen and tested as much as
possible - the fatal bugs (crashes etc) must be fixed first, and then
gameplay issues, but you know, AI is such a complex element of a game
that you're just not going to fix it all - and fixing one aspect could
unknowingly***up something else that doesn't reveal itself until the
game goes out onto the market. The bottom line is, once you reach the
deadline, you go with what you've got - it's the only way to survive.
Every deadline pushed back is money, and a great deal of money. Added
to that you've then got producers, designers and artists sitting around
for weeks waiting for developers to fix the last product before a new
project can commence.
The world is not as simple as you try to make out. Yes you can always
learn from past mistakes, and Papyrus are as guilty of making mistakes
as the rest of them, but business is the driver and the issues must be
understood.
NRO is important to Papyrus, and yes, Christmas sales (late November,
early December) are signficantly higher than during the rest of the
year. Bonus points if you can spot any other developers releasing
software on the run-up to the festive season.
The whole point is that there are some fantastic new simulations on the
horizon from Papyrus. Wouldn't you like to experience new software
technology rather than keep on playing the old stuff?
My final point regards your comment that Adam isn't particularly
concerned about the quality of his products or the feedback from
Papyrus' customers. Not true, because if you ever met the guy, you'd
know straight away that nothing could be further from the truth - the
software development business is such that if you're not completely
dedicated and enjoying what you're doing, you're in the wrong job...
more so when the company is primarily concentrating on one genre of
package, in this case racing simulation!
Mike Laskey
NASCAR 2 Racing s/w tester.
Looking at the differnce between he current N2 and the upcoming Grand Prix
Legends, I'd say there are quite a number of improvements that can be
incorporated into N3.
--
Quoted text (17 lines)
>>>>Err.. "Public Beta"????? Umm.. Hawaii?? Do you mean something like >>>>that??; ) >>>>Julian "Mr. Turtle" Data >> Julian, >> I was referring to trying a single game (or sim), even games like Quake, >>Doom, Flight Simulator, ANYTHING really... >> I guess that's why they put MINIMUM requirements on the side of the box, and >>not MAXIMUM.... >> No, this has nothin' to with Hawaii. >> Jimmy >Yeah but it does have everything to do with customer support I suggest >you read his reply again. Adam clearly states they will not fix N2. >They only plan to address issues like the AI in "future products."Quoted text (9 lines)
> No but I did purchase Nascar2 under a false impression expecting and > I quote from the summer 1997 issue of Interaction page 47. " includes > 16 different tracks, all featuring incredible realism." this was taken > from the Nascar2 adverti***t on that page. The AI is so screwed up > how can they promise "Incredible realism" on all tracks. > The whole point is they knew it had problems when we bought it and we > didn't but now that we do (which now they admit) they say too bad. > What the hell kind of customer support is that?, AI is such a complex element of a game
The AI isn't a little problem that just arose after the sim went to
market. Its a MAJOR problem when the cars are crahsing into each
other all over pit road. I'm not talking about crashing into you at
the beginning of pit road either. I'm talking about the cars
crashing and bouncing off walls toward the middle of pit road. Not to
mention the caution laps getting screwed up big time. You people make
it out as if we're just ***ing for the hell of it. Nascar2 has
Major problems and they refuse to fix it. I can assure you I'm not
the only one that has had the pitroad cars crashing problem. I have
several friends that aren't online that have these same problems.
Matt Marsala told me if I wasn't happy with it to take it back and get
a refund. Do you honestly think that Papyrus would take the same
stand on fixing it if they thought that everyone that purchased
Nascar2 would take it back. If they honestly thought people would
take it back they wouldn't encourage you to get a refund and take the
I'm not going to fix it attitude. If they believed even 40% of the
people would take it back well brother we'd have a fix by the end of
the month.
My point exactly. The NRO is more than likely why we're not going to
get a fix. I'm going to take a guess here but I'm sure you'll be one
of the first to join up on Ten and the NRO. So at least after they
get that going you wont have a problem with the AI. Very clever
Marketing dont you think Release a sim thats half-ass and tell the
people that purchased it in order to get the fix you'll need to buy
Nascar3 or of course you can sign up on Ten and the NRO and not have
to deal at all with AI problems.
>When you bought N2, did you buy some kind of package for a lifetime
>subscription to all NASCAR-related products that Papyrus ever released?
>I sure didn't see that bundle offered.
When you buy a new car and find all kinds of problems with it, do you
just say "Oh well, it will be fixed in the next model and I'll just
wait and buy that?!?!!!" I don't think so.
***************************************************************
* Scott Davis - Singer/Songwriter and a heck of a nice guy *
* *
***************************************************************
> Just remember what Ghandi said and he did say it. You are here for the customers.<
Which Ghandi would that be...the one who runs the 7-11 on the Simpsons?
;)
Bart
> Bart & Scarecrow, I'm not going to initiate some flame war here, I know you're both pretty close minded >
Aaahh. so THAT'S the problem. Thanks for the info.
Did I sneeze?
Bart
NASCAR 2 Racing s/w tester.<<
Another unbiased opinion...
Bart
No. I'm sorry that I actually have an education and have learned a few
things in life. Did you know that Mahatma Ghandi sold clothing before he
became the leader of India. Go read up on history, before you make fun of
me. Their is actually a famous quote that he made though I didn't put the
whole thing up here for sake of brevity. I am sorry that I'm not like some
of the rejects on this newssgroup that can only flame someone and not try
to understand where they are coming from. Please go read about Ghandi he
was a great leader and alot of people on this newsgroup could learn from
his teachings. He was a great listener, unlike some people on this
newsgroup who speak without listening.
No doubt, especially the 3d physics engine. That's probably the most
important to me, probably just because I'm a Physics and CS major.
Besides, as multiplayer technology gets better, we won't even want to
race against the AI anymore. Racing against humans will always be
better than AI because the unpredictability of a human could never
really be modelled completely accurately (in theory anyways).
Quoted text (72 lines)
>> No but I did purchase Nascar2 under a false impression expecting and >> I quote from the summer 1997 issue of Interaction page 47. " includes >> 16 different tracks, all featuring incredible realism." this was taken >> from the Nascar2 adverti***t on that page. The AI is so screwed up >> how can they promise "Incredible realism" on all tracks. >> The whole point is they knew it had problems when we bought it and we >> didn't but now that we do (which now they admit) they say too bad. >> What the hell kind of customer support is that? >Let's see...I own Longbow (AI Bugs, even after patches!), Jack Nicklaus >4 (Bugs!), The Wing Commander series (Bugs!), NHL '97 (serious AI >Bugs!), GP2 (AI Bugs!), MS Flight Sim 6.0 (Bugs!), Office 97 Pro (Bugs >and Macro Viruses!), Visual Basic 5.0 & C++ (Bugs!), and 3D Studio >(Bugs!). >Bart & Scarecrow, I'm not going to initiate some flame war here, I know >you're both pretty close minded- But if you can develop a sim with AI >that has NO bugs, that'll be a first. >Let me try to help you both understand what a simulation program is: >it's merely software, carrying out a predetermined, calculated or random >set of instructions. It isn't human, therefore, it can't possibly think >like a human would in every situation. >Now, about NASCAR 2- I just completed a championship season without >using any of the official patches (I did use a pre-patch fix for >Atlanta). I won a good amount of races and the points championship, >damage on, realistic mode, 100% AI. No, not every situation was >resolved by the computer drivers exactly as would be in real life, but I >still had a lot of fun. However, I did feel a great amount of realism >in the sim. >Before you continue bashing Papyrus and its employees who jump in here >to communicate with you (unlike any other sim company), let's review >what Papyrus has accomplished for you, the gamer: >1989- Indianapolis 500, The Simulation- first PC based racing sim to >feature a full field of cars. First PC based racing sim to create >incidents and mechanical failures by the AI opponents. >1993- IndyCar Racing- First PC based racing sim to feature a paintshop >so players could make their own cars. First PC based racing sim to use >texture mapping to create realistic decals and designs on cars. First >PC based racing sim to feature instant replay that lasted longer than 20 >seconds. >1994- NASCAR Racing- First PC based racing sim to tackle NASCAR >competition with realistic tracks, including accurate scenery. First PC >based racing sim to offer every NASCAR track licensable. First PC based >racing game to offer texture mapped, SVGA video in a full race field. >1995/96- IndyCar Racing II- First PC based racing game to be released in >three versions at once- Windows, DOS, MAC. First PC based racing game >to feature rendition support. >1996- NASCAR Racing 2- First PC based racing game to offer spotter >audio. First NASCAR genre game to offer rendition, first PC based >racing game to offer Dale Earnhardt and a host of other Winston Cup >stars. >So, where would we sim racing fanatics be without Papyrus? Playing Bill >Elliott's bug-filled NASCAR challenge? Days of bugs and Thunder? GP2? >I am grateful for Papyrus being the first to stand up and tackle the >NASCAR world with such ferocity. Heck, even Busch driver Steve Park >attributed his 5th place finish at Dover to his 800+ laps driven on the >monster mile in NASCAR 2! He mentioned this live on TNN motorsports >after the race. I look forward to the continuing evolution of the >computer racing sim, thanks in large part to Papyrus. >God Bless, >SteveTom I'm going to explain it one more time to you since you seem to be
very slow. Theres nothing you can do to stop the cars from crashing
into each other on pit road. This has happened even when I was on the
track and elected not to pit.
Where do you see this? I have owned NASCAR 2 since it first came out.
Never saw this...about the only REAL problem I ever saw was the Atlanta pit
thing, where the AI's would "fake" pit, turning toward pit road on the last
yellow lap, then turn back out to the track.
After I installed the first patch, I never saw any green lines at C***te,
nor did I have the T2 problem with jerking to the right.
Again, never saw any of this...
Still not sure what "major problems" we're talking about here...
The AI's I have race "fair", if ya wannna call it that...Sure, they may shut
the door on you goin' into turn one at Dover, or beat and bang on ya at
Bristol, but, hell, that's racin'.....Back off if ya have to !!!
Jimmy
***"My wife says if I go racin' one more time, she's gonna leave me...God, I'm
gonna miss her!"***
Quoted text (7 lines)
> >When you bought N2, did you buy some kind of package for a lifetime > >subscription to all NASCAR-related products that Papyrus ever released? > >I sure didn't see that bundle offered. > When you buy a new car and find all kinds of problems with it, do you > just say "Oh well, it will be fixed in the next model and I'll just > wait and buy that?!?!!!" I don't think so.Hi,
I augree, Papyrus has made incredible contributions to sim racing.
I can still remember the day I first saw a magazine article about
NASCAR Racing I that my friend showed me back in 1994. I remember
saying "everything looks so real!". Back then I was using an old Mac
LC, I switched to a PC about 10 months ago. On the Mac I had 3 racing
sims. The Deul Test Drive II (in black and white!), Ferrari Grand
Prix and Bill Elliott's NASCAR Challenge (at least they were in 16
colors!). In BENC on the Mac version, you couldn't even qualify at
Sears Point, there was a bug that made the program crash! Ferrari
Grnad Prix was probably the best racing sim on my Mac, but none of
them even hold a candle to the Papyrus sims. Keep raising the bar
Papy!
John
P.S. Are there any Mac users that played Ferrari Grnad Prix 2.0 for
hours like I did? :)
"There will be a rain-dance on friday, weather permitting."
-- George Carlin
>Nascar2 would take it back. If they honestly thought people would
>take it back they wouldn't encourage you to get a refund and take the
>I'm not going to fix it attitude. If they believed even 40% of the
>people would take it back well brother we'd have a fix by the end of
>the month.
No, the real truth of that scenario is that there would be no Papyrus
and no affordable NASCAR simulator because the perfection you're
demanding requires an enormous amount of time and funding to accomplish.
Microprose almost went down the pan waiting for Geoff Crammond to finish
GP2, and whilst he did a great job of creating the game, GP2 has its own
set of problems which whilst obviously different to NASCAR's, are no
less minor in reality. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying the NASCAR2
AI cars SHOULD move through each other in the pit lane or have this
magical spin recovery mode (I hate that at least as much as you do), but
considering the age of the AI design, the close, competitive racing it
produces I believe is enjoyable and actually quite remarkable. But of
course for future products, it is time to move on and develop new
improved code.
FWIW, other packages have similar problems: EF2000 has planes that taxi
through each other, Grand Prix 2 has cars that repeatedly bounce off
each other, Flying Corp appears to have aircraft that artifically leap
vertically to narrow altitude difference, and Quake AI, well, hmmm,
enough said! There are no perfect games, unless you believe the hype
surrounding the forthcoming Dungeon Keeper.
Unfortunately living in England makes any interaction with TEN and NRO
unviable and I'm not aware of any plans for UK dial-up servers required
for low latency connections for a full field of racers... so even though
I regularly link up machines with several of my friends around town, I
will require AI for the forseeable future. And it's with this viewpoint
that I have tested Papyrus' products, because I understand that several
months after the player has forgotten all about the glossy stuff, it's
the AI that makes or breaks the racing. But I am a realist and I know
what can be fixed and what else will have to wait for the next product
down the line.
--
Mike Laskey
I really don't get it man. I think there's some sort of common
misconception that getting a computer to act exactly like a human is
possible. AI is a technology that is still fairly new and is still
evolving. IMO it's definitely the hardest part to code in any game.
3D math and physics is all formulas, trying to model an unpredictable
human is impossible to do accurately with the equipment that we're all
running. They can only get by with so many calculations per frame,
Most of those go into the 3d and the physics engine. So what do you
want to trade up? You can't have it all. When we're all running
500mhz Alpha workstations, then you'll get your realistic, evolving
AI. Right now Programming AI is for games is mostly just finding a
good algorithm that doesn't eat up too much CPU and still appears
realistic. Papyrus' algorithms could be better definitely, but it
takes a lot of time to work out things like that. They can only patch
a program so many times. They could squander all their resources
patching the AI (which isn't that bad in the first place), but they'll
go broke before they ever get it right. How can you expect them to do
that? They released the product saying it was realistic, and it is.
It's the most realistic sim out there IMO. However I don't think any
of this will change your mind as it already seems made up. I had to
speak my mind anyway. Bottom line is if you don't like it, fine. You
won't buy any more of their products.
< A bunch of refreshingly intellegent <compared to alot of the more
recent BS threads in this newsgroup> comments by Steve snipped>
HERE HERE! Well put. Great post.
--
Mike Schreiner
http://city-guide.com/CNSRL
CNSRL Homepage
http://pages.prodigy.com/CNSRL
Mirror Site
Quoted text (9 lines)
>> >When you bought N2, did you buy some kind of package for a lifetime >> >subscription to all NASCAR-related products that Papyrus ever released? >> >I sure didn't see that bundle offered. >> When you buy a new car and find all kinds of problems with it, do you >> just say "Oh well, it will be fixed in the next model and I'll just >> wait and buy that?!?!!!" I don't think so. >But did you pay $49.95 or #18,000.00 for the new car?Quoted text (10 lines)
> >>The AI isn't a little problem that just arose after the sim went to > >>market. Its a MAJOR problem when the cars are crahsing into each > >>other all over pit road. > Where do you see this? I have owned NASCAR 2 since it first came out. > Never saw this...about the only REAL problem I ever saw was the Atlanta pit > thing, where the AI's would "fake" pit, turning toward pit road on the last > yellow lap, then turn back out to the track. > After I installed the first patch, I never saw any green lines at C***te, > nor did I have the T2 problem with jerking to the right.>One thing is for sure I will not buy the same sim twice
>which is what nascar3 is gonna be. Nascar2 with better AI.
>Thats all its gonna be I mean there's nothing left to improve,
When N3 comes out, I advise you to take a few weeks and make that
determination as to what's improved and whether it's worth it to you.
If it's not, don't buy it. I don't think that you have enough
information to make that decision today, but perhaps you do. Your
call.
So there are very noticable differences between N1 and N2, yet you
feel you got screwed buying N2 because it was just the same as N1?
(Cut to Monty Python: Red, no wait, Blue! (AAaAiiiiieeeeh)) Surely it
can't be both ways.
---Jim, who bought more than one copy of N2, and I don't feel I got
cheated at all... :-) <-- For the humor impaired.
Quoted text (7 lines)
>>When you bought N2, did you buy some kind of package for a lifetime >>subscription to all NASCAR-related products that Papyrus ever released? >>I sure didn't see that bundle offered. >When you buy a new car and find all kinds of problems with it, do you >just say "Oh well, it will be fixed in the next model and I'll just >wait and buy that?!?!!!" I don't think so.>>But did you pay $49.95 or #18,000.00 for the new car?
>Doesn't matter how much you payed its still the same principle.
That's your problem, boy, you expect the same level of support for a
$50 game as you do a $12,000 or $30,000 or $90,000 vehicle. The
failure in your system is the vendor of the $50 computer GAME.
---Jim
>I was referring for doing a "public beta", which more than just beta
>testers are confined to the product but to the public as well.. Just
>like Hawaii. Here you will get a lot of system configurations.. ; )
Yup, and you'll get a flood of next-to-useless e-mail. Beta testing a
product is not for everyone. The beta testers I've worked with have
been very cognizant of the job they had to perform, they're very
capable of configuring their own system, and it's helpful to companies
to have beta testers who don't need hand-holding and whose defect
reports are clear, to the point, and repeatable.
Look at the number of people who still can't get their systems
properly configured to run games on their own, and you'll probably
realize that the 1% of defect reports from a public beta would not be
noticed in time by our QA department, because they'd have their hands
full slogging through report after report from people who think that
beta-testing IS free-demo.
---Jim
Quoted text (8 lines)
>>It doesn't even need to be something as complicated >>as a racing sim... *Any* software program is going to >>have problems on *somebody's* machine... >True, but this is more of a comment on current operating systems like >Windows and their limitations. With reliable, consistently functioning >operating systems (such as DOS for example) is was possible (and much >easier!) to write software that worked on all machines.This is a cop out ! When you buy a product, regardless of it's price $5 or
$50000 you expect the best for your money not somthing that is flawed. The
AI is not improved. The game should be an improvment not a dress up. The
game was built up to be a great improvment, but it is in fact a great
dress up. I have not complained about this before but given your comment
of support for a $50 game I felt it was necessary. If you market somthing
make it good and we will come back for more when production gets in the
way of quailty you lose as well as your customers. The bottom line is
quailty means money, little quality means little money, think about it.
I'm sure your tired of hearing this so I appreaciate your time and just
wanted you and your company to understand our positions.
Outlaw Alf
Go 24 Straight to victory Lane
Outlaw Designs Nascar Sim Page
http:\\members.aol.com\outlawalf\index.htm
I agree with Outlaw Alf. It's obvious that money doesn't mean that much
to some of the people in this newssgroup. Some people have to work hard to
make that $50. I think that the arrogance and flippant attitudes of people
in this newssgroup are reflective of their answers.
And if this is the attitude of Sierra ( that it is only $50), then their
company is in alot of trouble. Look out in the real world. Sierra doesn't
have enough of a customer base to shove off. If they upset half of their
customers over these issues, then will it be worth it to them to release
the next product knowing that it is going to sell abouty half as many
programs. Only time will tell.
I don't see Win 97 is any better than Win 95
Quoted text (9 lines)
>>>But did you pay $49.95 or #18,000.00 for the new car? >>Doesn't matter how much you payed its still the same principle. >That's your problem, boy, you expect the same level of support for a >$50 game as you do a $12,000 or $30,000 or $90,000 vehicle. The >failure in your system is the vendor of the $50 computer GAME. >---JimDon't buy it if u don't have the money. Like people said, racing is a very
expensive sports. Go play soccer or something
I don't really have a problem with the AI. AI is AI. Every Sim is
different, every car/driver is sort of different. Every real person
is different.
The real problem lies in the functions/features that were not
delivered. N2 was sold and the next logical step up from N1. To me
that means that it should include everything that N1 has and then
some, plus enhancements. The way N2 looks and plays, it should NOT
have been N2 but a patch to N1. The only real difference between the
two is one has a spotter and the other doesn't. Sure N2 drives
different, looks different, plays different, etc, but none of those
things are neccessarily any better than before, just different.
I think that N2 was just a rewritten and modified N1 with a lot of
spagetti code fixed. Consider:
N1 - No spotter N2 - spotter
N1 - tracks N2 - same tracks with DIFFERENT graphics
N1 - Save game N2 - No save game
N1 - Chat N2 - Crippled chat
N1- 486CPU N2 - at least a Pentium
And the code they couldn't dress up was deleted......
<just an opinion>
Quoted text (22 lines)
> >>When you bought N2, did you buy some kind of package for a lifetime > >>subscription to all NASCAR-related products that Papyrus ever released? > >>I sure didn't see that bundle offered. > >When you buy a new car and find all kinds of problems with it, do you > >just say "Oh well, it will be fixed in the next model and I'll just > >wait and buy that?!?!!!" I don't think so. > I also didn't go driving up to my Jeep dealer when the '97 Grand > Cherokees came out and say, "Hey, the new ones have the flipper back > glass, if you don't install that on my car, I'm going to: > a) return my truck > b) flame Jeep endless on the internet > c) sue you > d) go cry and whine to my mommy." > After all, my '96 Grand Cherokee is all that different from the '84 > Cherokee I have. Surely in 12 years, Jeep could have fundamentally > revolutionized the SUV, but they felt that they had to release my > truck late in the year, when the public is expecting to buy new cars. > ---JimHARDY-HAR-HAR! That's a good one.
War and space travel are expensive too. I don't say I'm participating
in them because I've played a computer game.
--
Quoted text (9 lines)
>> >The game will feature 10-13 tracks from the series as well as >> >up to 30 Grand National drivers. >> Why only 30? Having only 39 now is bad enough! >Licensing, no doubt. Just as now, you'll very likely be able to import >other drivers and car paint jobs from the 'net. That sentence doesn't >imply that you can have only 30 in a race, merely that only some number >will be included in the BGN pack...Thank God somebody gets it.
Quoted text (20 lines)
>> >>The AI isn't a little problem that just arose after the sim went to >> >>market. Its a MAJOR problem when the cars are crahsing into each >> >>other all over pit road. >> Where do you see this? I have owned NASCAR 2 since it first came out. >> Never saw this...about the only REAL problem I ever saw was the Atlanta pit >> thing, where the AI's would "fake" pit, turning toward pit road on the last >> yellow lap, then turn back out to the track. >> After I installed the first patch, I never saw any green lines at C***te, >> nor did I have the T2 problem with jerking to the right. >This happens all the time in modem racing (AI cars crashing in the pits >and in a big wreck). Also cars that don't catch up to the pack under >yellow. >-- >I think people can figure out the spam filter to reply to me.. >Kel >Calgary, Alberta CANADAQuoted text (18 lines)
>There are parts of Nascar2 covered by WARRANTY that do not work as >described >in the owner's manual. >If the problem is covered by a warranty, the manufacturer should be >required >to fix the problem. Not require you to buy next years model. >I realize the money levels are different but where do you draw the line? >Your $18,000 Jeep shouldn't have as much support available as a $40,000 >BMW? >However if the company realizes that a model has problems they can be >FORCED >to return the money paid for the vehicle. (Lemon Laws) >mykey>>Doesn't matter how much you payed its still the same principle.
>That's your problem, boy, you expect the same level of support for a
>$50 game as you do a $12,000 or $30,000 or $90,000 vehicle. The
>failure in your system is the vendor of the $50 computer GAME.
And of course, that should have been "is NOT the vendor of the $50
computer GAME"...
---Jim
>There are parts of Nascar2 covered by WARRANTY that do not work as
>described
>in the owner's manual.
Which parts are those exactly?
The manufacturer should be required to fix the problem, or refund your
money for claims made within the warranty period.
---Jim Sokoloff
Quoted text (12 lines)
>>There are parts of Nascar2 covered by WARRANTY that do not work as >>described >>in the owner's manual. >Which parts are those exactly? >>If the problem is covered by a warranty, the manufacturer should be >>required >>to fix the problem. Not require you to buy next years model. >The manufacturer should be required to fix the problem, or refund your >money for claims made within the warranty period. >---Jim Sokoloff>>He was a great listener, unlike some people on this newsgroup who speak without listening.<<
Umm...maybe you didnt catch the other guy's smiley face at the end of the
message...It was obvioulsy an attempt at humor but I guess not all of us
caught that. Dont start flaming people for no reason please, nobody like
to read those.
Quoted text (35 lines)
>>>There are parts of Nascar2 covered by WARRANTY that do not work as >>>described >>>in the owner's manual. >>Which parts are those exactly? >>>If the problem is covered by a warranty, the manufacturer should be >>>required >>>to fix the problem. Not require you to buy next years model. >>The manufacturer should be required to fix the problem, or refund your >>money for claims made within the warranty period. >>---Jim Sokoloff >What about the misleading adverti***ts. Please dont try to justify >that. Look Maybe the problems we're experiencing are only in modem >play. I dont know although I have witnessed the cars crashing on >pitroad during single play as well. Still you have no right to tell >us that what we're seeing isn't that bad. Hell man I cant get 40 laps >in without it screwing the whole race up. I didn't actually buy >Nascar 2 to race by myself. my friends and I Like to hook up and >race a season modem to modem and its impossible in Nascar2 but I would >like to mention that we all had very good races with Nascar1. Thats >why I said had I known that Papyrus would jerk us around on fixing >bugs I'd never even bought it. According to you Nascar3's gonna be so >much more anyway. Yeah thats what they said about Nascar2! >We purchased Nascar2 with the impression that it was a major Upgrade >and improvement. Of course we know by your post that you were'nt >under this impression. Hey we dont all work for Papy you know so >we're forced to learn info on up and coming stuff by you people. Then >we find out for Ourselves you try to convince us that we're imagining >it or its " not that bad." As far as refund I dont want my money back >I want what was advertised. "Authentic racing from qualification to >championship, includes 16 tracks all featuring incredible realism" >well 20 cars crashing on pit road is not realism and I dare you to say >it is.go wreck your car into pieces, see if they will take it back
I can still remember, back in 1989, when I got my first soundcard! It was
this great AdLib thing and the first game I tried was Indianapolis 500.
Well, THAT TOTALLY FREAKIN' ROCKED!! Speakers right behind me, and go! And
then, when I finally saw Indianapolis 500 on a color screen, I knew for
sure: sims wouldn't get any better than this! And then I got Indycar,
NASCAR, and all the rest, you know the story.
THANKS PAPYRUS, KEEP UP THE *VERY* GOOD WORK. You guys are the only reason
I upgrade my PC now and then... (I don't really need an overclocked Pentium
to run Word!)
--
Formula T2 Upgrade Page - http://huizen.dds.nl/~jjcox
Here in the Netherlands we have a great word for whining about
'principles': KOPPIGHEID, which is OBSTINACY in English.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
--
Formula T2 Upgrade Page - http://huizen.dds.nl/~jjcox
> It's what was promised,
> what even the manual states that we did NOT receive the product that
> we were lead to believe we would get.
> Nomo Respect
Did you read a copy of the manual before you bought the game? Did what
you read in the manual influence your decision to purchase the game? I
haven't raced in multiplayer mode yet, but I have raced an entire season
solo. I never saw any AI cars crashing into each other on pit road,
though others in this group have said they do. I also didn't have to
restart any race during that season because of some bug ruining an
event.
So, in terms of Sierra's claims of performance (ie. realistic handling,
competition, etc.), I think it's top dog as far as computer sims go. I
think Longbow is one of the greatest computer flight sims ever produced,
yet it's got some bugs, even after applying patches. In six*** years
of computing, I have yet to see one full app that doesn't have at least
one bug. I think Papyrus' presence in this group, coupled with their
willingness to produce patches that included features you demanded (such
as save race) should say something about their effort to please you.
God Bless,
Steve
On Mon, 09 Jun 1997 13:26:23 -0400, Steve Vandergriff
No, did not read the manual prior to buying the game. But saw Sierra
adverti***ts claiming those items to be in the game, that later
after buying the game the manual stated that they WERE in the game.
So, yes the adverti***ts (false) influenced greatly in my decisions
into purchasing it. And not like most people, I read the manual from
cover to cover prior to installing the game.
AI problems... the fake pitting, and AI's crashing into other pitted
cars, I've experienced myself, but haven't ran into that problem since
the last patch... notice the AI cars though seem not to be as
aggressive as they use to be even at 105% now also.
Never said that N2 was a flawed product or perfect product. Papyrus
is a respected company. What really questioned my respect and I
shouldn't take it out on a company as a whole, but individuals that
make-shift down right false claims, about what was promised in their
product and why they now state that they don't intend to support or
develop those into the product when it was claimed to have them in it
on the initial release. That is my reason for posting in this
newsgroup, cause Papyrus employees do listen with open minds on the
concerns of their customers. NASCAR Racing 2 is a fantastic and best
racing simulator on the market... hands down! But include the
features that was promised, fix the problems and make the AI's smarter
and more aggressive. Then when N3 comes out with more improvements
and added features, I'll again respect the Sierra/Papyrus label and
pull out my wallet once again to purchase their product.
Nomo
Quoted text (7 lines)
>Did you read a copy of the manual before you bought the game? Did what >you read in the manual influence your decision to purchase the game? I >haven't raced in multiplayer mode yet, but I have raced an entire season >solo. I never saw any AI cars crashing into each other on pit road, >though others in this group have said they do. I also didn't have to >restart any race during that season because of some bug ruining an >event.> Did you read a copy of the manual before you bought the game? Did what
> you read in the manual influence your decision to purchase the game? I
How the heck do you read the manual BEFORE you buy the game. Mabye your
computer store sells opened shrinkwraped games? Besides, the manual
doesn't tell half of the real story :)
Happens ALL the time in multiplayer. That and other major AI bugs when
under yellow.
Yes, I agree fully about that statement. But they fixed the MINOR bugs
which didn't really bother me that much. Everyone ***es about the AI
(even since N1) the most, and I have not seen any improvement. AI, I
think is is the biggest beef among us serious sim fans that cannot
afford 300- 400 bucks a month racing Hawaii. Most of us just race our
buddies online (with full field). I know AI programing must be a truly
difficult task, but a dedicated company (hopefully like Papy) will at
least make the effort and put the money there to make the AI the way
it's supposed to be.
And you too,
--
I think people can figure out the spam filter to reply to me..
Kel
Calgary, Alberta CANADA
Quoted text (16 lines)
> >> Where do you see this? I have owned NASCAR 2 since it first came out. > >> Never saw this...about the only REAL problem I ever saw was the Atlanta pit > >> thing, where the AI's would "fake" pit, turning toward pit road on the last > >> yellow lap, then turn back out to the track. > >> After I installed the first patch, I never saw any green lines at C***te, > >> nor did I have the T2 problem with jerking to the right. > >This happens all the time in modem racing (AI cars crashing in the pits > >and in a big wreck). Also cars that don't catch up to the pack under > >yellow. > Thank you Kel. I'm glad somebody else sees this besides me. If you > I see this problem 75% of the races > I run modem wise and before you even start the modem config theory > dont try it. My modem partner and I both have the same (very reliable > & universal) modems. We get a .10 latency and everything else works > just fine.> This is a cop out ! When you buy a product, regardless of it's price $5 or
> $50000 you expect the best for your money not somthing that is flawed.
I can read this two ways (one of which is completely wrong-headed, and
the other is my point exactly.)
The first (wrong-headed) way:
Regardless of the price I pay, I expect the VERY best item available.
With this, you'd be disappointed when your new Hyundai doesn't perform
like a Porsche Twin-Turbo. (After all, it doesn't matter whether you
spend $5, $50, $9000, or $125000 on a car, you expect the BEST for your
money and not something which is flawed.) You'd similarly be
disappointed when the used car you just bought didn't come with a brand
new engine, new tires, new exhaust, etc. Or when the existing house you
just bought didn't come with all new appliances and a new roof.
If this is your reasoning, your viewpoint is hopelessly at odds with
reality, and in your world, I am a blathering fool. Fine.
The second way:
You recognize that while your new Hyundai doesn't perform like a
Porsche, you think it was the best FOR YOUR MONEY and was the
appropriate car for you, given what you were willing/able to spend. Or
that a used car, warts and all, fit your financial reality a bit better
than a new car.
By this reasoning, a smart man such as yourself should easily be able to
see how a $50 game shouldn't be held to same standards as a $50,000
vertical integration application, or even a $500 office package.
---Jim Sokoloff
<snip>
<By this reasoning, a smart man such as yourself should easily be able
to see how a $50 game shouldn't be held to same standards as a $50,000
vertical integration application, or even a $500 office package.>
I understand your argument, but software prices are hardly analogous to
hard goods prices -- they reflect what the market will bear, not what it
cost to produce, package, and distribute them. If, for example, several
major corporations decreed that every office had to standardize on
ICRII, and that their suppliers had to do likewise, how long would it
be, do you think, before ICRII cost $500?
If I go out and buy Adobe Photoshop, it costs me around $600, and every
time I upgrade to a new version, it costs another $150. Do you seriously
contend that Photoshop, the basic coding of which has been around for --
what, 8-10 years? -- actually costs TWELVE times as much to produce,
package, and distribute than ICRII. I don't think so...
Or are you contending that only one-twelfth the care, testing, and
customer concern went into producing ICRII, or N2, or whatever game
you'd like to name, than went into Photoshop? Now THAT particular
argument I WILL buy, but that's hardly a good reflection on Sierra, is
it? It just reinforces the argument that Sierra's policy is "it doesn't
matter if it's ready or not, it's almost Christmas buying season and we
GOTTA ship it!"
Do you not agree that this is a valid conclusion?
Bart Brown
Quoted text (29 lines)
><snip> ><By this reasoning, a smart man such as yourself should easily be able >to see how a $50 game shouldn't be held to same standards as a $50,000 >vertical integration application, or even a $500 office package.> >I understand your argument, but software prices are hardly analogous to >hard goods prices -- they reflect what the market will bear, not what it >cost to produce, package, and distribute them. If, for example, several >major corporations decreed that every office had to standardize on >ICRII, and that their suppliers had to do likewise, how long would it >be, do you think, before ICRII cost $500? >If I go out and buy Adobe Photoshop, it costs me around $600, and every >time I upgrade to a new version, it costs another $150. Do you seriously >contend that Photoshop, the basic coding of which has been around for -- >what, 8-10 years? -- actually costs TWELVE times as much to produce, >package, and distribute than ICRII. I don't think so... >Or are you contending that only one-twelfth the care, testing, and >customer concern went into producing ICRII, or N2, or whatever game >you'd like to name, than went into Photoshop? Now THAT particular >argument I WILL buy, but that's hardly a good reflection on Sierra, is >it? It just reinforces the argument that Sierra's policy is "it doesn't >matter if it's ready or not, it's almost Christmas buying season and we >GOTTA ship it!" >Do you not agree that this is a valid conclusion? >Bart Brown> hmm..no. windows 95 was buggy when it came out. People still buy it
Great argument. What choice do they have? This, I'm afraid, is apples
and oranges -- operating systems are not analogous to application
software in this context.
BB
>>> This is a cop out ! When you buy a product, regardless of it's price $5 or
Microsoft said Windows 95 is the best operating system now. But do u really
think so?
Quoted text (34 lines)
>>> $50000 you expect the best for your money not somthing that is flawed. >>I can read this two ways (one of which is completely wrong-headed, and >>the other is my point exactly.) >>The first (wrong-headed) way: >>Regardless of the price I pay, I expect the VERY best item available. >>With this, you'd be disappointed when your new Hyundai doesn't perform >>like a Porsche Twin-Turbo. (After all, it doesn't matter whether you >>spend $5, $50, $9000, or $125000 on a car, you expect the BEST for your >>money and not something which is flawed.) You'd similarly be >>disappointed when the used car you just bought didn't come with a brand >>new engine, new tires, new exhaust, etc. Or when the existing house you >>just bought didn't come with all new appliances and a new roof. >>If this is your reasoning, your viewpoint is hopelessly at odds with >>reality, and in your world, I am a blathering fool. Fine. >>The second way: >>You recognize that while your new Hyundai doesn't perform like a >>Porsche, you think it was the best FOR YOUR MONEY and was the >>appropriate car for you, given what you were willing/able to spend. Or >>that a used car, warts and all, fit your financial reality a bit better >>than a new car. >>By this reasoning, a smart man such as yourself should easily be able to >>see how a $50 game shouldn't be held to same standards as a $50,000 >>vertical integration application, or even a $500 office package. >>---Jim Sokoloff >Hundai also doesn't advertise that they're selling Porsche's either >you'll never convince me that we dont have a legitimate gripe. >Nascar2 isn't what they advertised.matter if it's ready or not, it's almost Christmas buying season and we
GOTTA ship it!"<<
YOU GOT THAT RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SG
Tom, can you come up with anymore than a one sentence reply to anything.
Give us some reasoning for your opinions. Offer us some insight into your
beliefs.
Neither is a ton of other software...
Tom...just a friendly netiquette tip: you do NOT have to quote IN ITS
ENTIRETY the message to which you are responding; especially not
REPEATEDLY.
It is no joy to scroll through the complete text of 5 lengthy posts just
to find one of your monosyllabic one-sentence pearls at the bottom.
Please?
Bart Brown
Quoted text (7 lines)
>> hmm..no. windows 95 was buggy when it came out. People still buy it >Great argument. What choice do they have? This, I'm afraid, is apples >and oranges -- operating systems are not analogous to application >software in this context. >BB> hmm great argument. Why don't you say that NASCAR should take out Bristol
> and Dover because they don't use asphault as their main racing surface. A
> track is a track. A software is a software. AI is an AI ......
END of argument.
BB
: I'd also like to know, although you certainly have no obligation to tell
: me, what has become of Papyrus in the big Sierra melting-pot. As I had
: mentioned before, the latest issue of "Interaction" contains -- as far
: as I can tell -- not a single reference to the company once known as
: Papyrus. Yet your address seems to indicate that Papyrus still survives
: as a separate entity. You may think I ask this as an item of pure
: gossip, but what I'm really interested in is the level of autonomy a
: company like yours can retain in a corporate environment like Sierra's.
: If, as it seems, the answer is spinning down to "none", then that says a
: great deal about the future of games gathered under Sierra's wing.
Well, I just received my copy of Interaction and my copy must not be the
same as the "special redacted" version you recieved.
pg 12: "Upcoming Issues" "Watch for future interviews with ...
*Papyrus'* head speed demon, Dave Kaemmer."
pg 88: "***ed to SODA" "We live for the next big *Papryus* racing
release. That's why we went into mourning when the *Papyrus* developers
recently let us know that Grand Prix Legends wouldn't be available until
Spring 1998. . . pre-alpha version of *Papyrus'* new SODA Off-Road
Racing..."
pg 89: same article "The folks at *Papyrus* have big plans... We've
made *Papyrus* promise..."
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>>Microsoft said Windows 95 is the best operating system now. But do u really
thank you for speaking up Mr.Turtle heheh
Quoted text (9 lines)
>>think so? >HAH!! OS/2 WARP 4.0, NT 4.0 (with ALL the service Paks) Windows 95 SR2 >(OEM).. UNIX >Julian "Mr. Turtle" Data >IVGA Member 0004 >The N2 "SkunksWorks" is in progress >Verite/3DFX ownerno point to spend couple minutes reading your ***too
Quoted text (12 lines)
> >Tom...just a friendly netiquette tip: you do NOT have to quote IN ITS > >ENTIRETY the message to which you are responding; especially not > >REPEATEDLY. > >It is no joy to scroll through the complete text of 5 lengthy posts just > >to find one of your monosyllabic one-sentence pearls at the bottom. > >Please? > >Bart Brown > no point to spend couple minutes reading your ***too: I think it is funny that all of you talk about the fact that papyrus
: isnt fixing the ai on n2 in favor of working on future projects (n3?)
: and saying that they will lose customers. It is you same people that
: will be the first people in line to buy n3 when it comes out.
: stop your sniveling and play the damn game.
--
___________________
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" They are gettin' on with it here at Talladega!" -Ned Jarret
T'roy In G'ville-We race for beer here too!
#3 #17
the future of sim racing is going to be online anyway. why bother to fix
it.
