Papyrus, A Legitimate Request.

Jim, Adam, ... I just finished reading a post (Pissin match) about curved pit roads. Jim, save your breath. 4 responses won't help if someone has no idea what is involved in the coding process. Let's take N2 for what it is at face value. A great game, with some bugs to work out, just like any other. Microsoft has thousands of programmers, and 1-1/2 years after 95's release, the SR2, in my mind, created more problems than the original release had. (with the service pack installed). I'll bet that video card Mfgr's just loved the changes in the display properties applet. I don't beleive there are thousand's of developers working on N2, and as much as I would like to see the game look like the in car camera on ESPN, it isn't going to happen for a while. For those people complaining, If we want to look for things to complain about, (and there are several), we should concentrate on those things that are real problems to gameplay. A curved pit road is really a small price to pay. Number one on my list is that everyone knows that there are problems in N2 that I'm sure Papy allready fixed and they could send out a patch for many small bugs and let those of us who do play the game, have the annoying simple problems resolved. I've watched this group for quite a while and most of the things that bother people, look like simple fixes in the code to me. I would guess that 90% of the things people have complained about in RAS have allready been fixed, we just cant have the code in hand until You guys (Papy) give it to us. So we play the buggy first release. I for one, by the way, am happy to have the buggy first release. Things like the leaders pitting with 1 to go and the rear view mirror's blind spot being the size of Texas. The Imfamous save game everyone wants. Cyrix joystick problems. Multiplayer Chat, Etc. Some of the AI fixes must be easy to impliment. Other things like track conditions, ie, being able to pass on the High side, would be real nice, just a little more difficult to do because of all the tracks needing changes. I see guys pass on the high side every week in Nascar. I've NEVER passed on the outside on Hawaii unless a car wrecked in the infield! I don't know about most of the people out there, but I can speak for myself and at least 5 friends who almost never play N2 just because of the problems we've had with the AI. We used to run a lot of races 50% and + in N1 (Modem Play), we simply don't run them any more. personally, I don't want to play N1 again. I find the transition from N2 to N1 so hard that I won't play on Hawaii any more just because I can't compete. I could if I wanted to spend the time in N1. I don't want to. My interest in the NRO is fading. Looking at the cost and knowing that it'll be months till it gets going. Then I'll still have to pay long distance, and I'm sure that wont change for a LONG time in my area. I'm sure I'm not the only person with this kind of attitude and if anything is a nail in the coffin, it's loss of interest. How many people out there would really care if we had to put up with 3 or 4 patches??? I would be thrilled to see something a little more concrete from You guys. How about a patch that fixes a FEW minor issues, with a readme file that says, "We fixed problems A, B, C, & D. We are working On E, F, G ... They will get attention at a later date. Don't like it, play the original game with problems ABC n D. " IMHO, Hawaii is the thing that made Nascar Racing such a craze. Also the thing that sold Nascar 2. I realize that a bulk of the current work is related to the NRO development. Perhaps the changes being made that are related to the NRO are so interwoven into the smaller issues I read about on RAS, that a intermediate patch would be more trouble than it's worth. I would think that the little AI fixes would be a prerequisite to development on the the MP stuff but who knows. At a very minimum, at least post a list of items that You guys recognized as problems and fixed for the Upcomming patch, whenever it is released. By the way, a note for your developers.... Microsoft has this thing called Visual Basic. Along with Direct X, I'll bet it would really make things easy for ya. HeHe. YukYuk. ---------------------------------------------------------------- The United States Government allows You to buy a home and call it your own, as long as You continue to buy it back from them, each year... Phil Bower, Micro-Second Computers

The mirrors are adjustable in the track.txt file (Look in the New England file for REM'd out lines that will make the mirrors more like N1 if that's what you prefer. The trade-off is you can't tell how far away a car is those mirrors, but you have less blind spot.) The leaders pitting on white flag will probably stay as is for now. That's being considered for the patch. That's a Cyrix hardware compatibility problem (their CPU doesn't support the Pentium RDTSC instruction, which is needed by our "more accurate" joystick routines. On the Cyrix (and other 486's), we have to use the "less accurate" joystick routines, which are fine, so long as you aren't doing DMA...) I'm not sure what the exact issue here is... (i.e. exactly why N2 doesn't have it) I can make some estimations, but I can't really comment much on this one. That was the original plan (two patches, one very quick one for some of the easy items, and another more comprehensive patch.) Due to some production problems with the international versions and some unexpected engineering problems with portions of the "first" patch, we've decided to release a single, more comprehensive patch. (The decision to release a single patch has delayed the release of ANY patch by LESS THAN two weeks, and I think that's the right decision to make.) N1 had probably sold well over 500,000 units before Hawaii was unveiled. The current NRO work, which you correctly estimate is going full-bore, is independent of the work on the patch. The patch is not delaying NRO, nor is NRO delaying the patch. Totally different groups of engineers. I'd like to, but even I don't know all of the details at this point (someone else is "in charge" of N2, and I've just contributed little bits and pieces here and there) I think you'll get the patch before you get the list of what's in the patch. ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

Its been almost 4 months now and they are just considering the save game ...... give me a break. Papyrus is on the way down the tubes along with Sierra. On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:24:19 -0800, Jeff Hedges >> > > The Imfamous save game everyone wants. >> That's being considered for the patch.---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus >> I would be thrilled to see something a little more concrete >> >from You guys.

>Its been almost 4 months now and they are just considering the save >game ...... give me a break. Papyrus is on the way down the tubes >along with Sierra. By my counting, it's been almost exactly three months... (Of course, 4 months makes your argument sound a little better, until someone with the facts shoots a great big hole in it.) ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

Quoted text (7 lines)

>>Its been almost 4 months now and they are just considering the save >>game ...... give me a break. Papyrus is on the way down the tubes >>along with Sierra. >By my counting, it's been almost exactly three months... >(Of course, 4 months makes your argument sound a little better, until >someone with the facts shoots a great big hole in it.)

And *only* three months (and counting) fully negates his argument? Who's shading things now, Jim? ;) Before you send me UCE, I know what you're thinking... Did he complain to five or six postmasters last month? Now, you must ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do you, punk?

Quoted text (7 lines)

> >Its been almost 4 months now and they are just considering the save > >game ...... give me a break. Papyrus is on the way down the tubes > >along with Sierra. > By my counting, it's been almost exactly three months... > (Of course, 4 months makes your argument sound a little better, until > someone with the facts shoots a great big hole in it.)

OKay fine. 3 Months. But it does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling to find out that 3 months later, you are still considering whether to put a SAVE Game in the patch. Sheesh folks, it should have been in all of your games to start with! -- Header address intentionaly scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

Wouldn't concern me whether it was 3 weeks or 3 months. The "delay" hasn't stopped my enjoyment of the sim and at least Papyrus ARE producing a patch. -- Bruce #31 "....and if I'm not mistaken....and I AM mistaken...." (Murray Walker) VRE Site: http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/vegemiteracing/index.htm The STUNNED MULLET: http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/StunnedMullet/index.htm

Quoted text (68 lines)

>Jim, Adam, ... >I just finished reading a post (Pissin match) about curved pit roads. Jim, >save your breath. 4 responses won't help if someone has no idea what is >involved in the coding process. >Let's take N2 for what it is at face value. A great game, with some bugs >to work out, just like any other. Microsoft has thousands of programmers, >and 1-1/2 years after 95's release, the SR2, in my mind, created more >problems than the original release had. (with the service pack installed). >I'll bet that video card Mfgr's just loved the changes in the display >properties applet. I don't beleive there are thousand's of developers >working on N2, and as much as I would like to see the game look like the in >car camera on ESPN, it isn't going to happen for a while. >For those people complaining, If we want to look for things to complain >about, (and there are several), we should concentrate on those things that >are real problems to gameplay. A curved pit road is really a small price >to pay. >Number one on my list is that everyone knows that there are problems in N2 >that I'm sure Papy allready fixed and they could send out a patch for many >small bugs and let those of us who do play the game, have the annoying >simple problems resolved. I've watched this group for quite a while and >most of the things that bother people, look like simple fixes in the code >to me. I would guess that 90% of the things people have complained about >in RAS have allready been fixed, we just cant have the code in hand until >You guys (Papy) give it to us. So we play the buggy first release. I for >one, by the way, am happy to have the buggy first release. >Things like the leaders pitting with 1 to go and the rear view mirror's >blind spot being the size of Texas. The Imfamous save game everyone wants. > Cyrix joystick problems. Multiplayer Chat, Etc. Some of the AI fixes must >be easy to impliment. Other things like track conditions, ie, being able >to pass on the High side, would be real nice, just a little more difficult >to do because of all the tracks needing changes. I see guys pass on the >high side every week in Nascar. I've NEVER passed on the outside on Hawaii >unless a car wrecked in the infield! >I don't know about most of the people out there, but I can speak for myself >and at least 5 friends who almost never play N2 just because of the >problems we've had with the AI. We used to run a lot of races 50% and + in >N1 (Modem Play), we simply don't run them any more. personally, I don't >want to play N1 again. I find the transition from N2 to N1 so hard that I >won't play on Hawaii any more just because I can't compete. I could if I >wanted to spend the time in N1. I don't want to. My interest in the NRO >is fading. Looking at the cost and knowing that it'll be months till it >gets going. Then I'll still have to pay long distance, and I'm sure that >wont change for a LONG time in my area. I'm sure I'm not the only person >with this kind of attitude and if anything is a nail in the coffin, it's >loss of interest. >How many people out there would really care if we had to put up with 3 or 4 >patches??? I would be thrilled to see something a little more concrete >from You guys. How about a patch that fixes a FEW minor issues, with a >readme file that says, "We fixed problems A, B, C, & D. We are working On >E, F, G ... They will get attention at a later date. Don't like it, play >the original game with problems ABC n D. " >IMHO, Hawaii is the thing that made Nascar Racing such a craze. Also the >thing that sold Nascar 2. I realize that a bulk of the current work is >related to the NRO development. Perhaps the changes being made that are >related to the NRO are so interwoven into the smaller issues I read about >on RAS, that a intermediate patch would be more trouble than it's worth. I >would think that the little AI fixes would be a prerequisite to development >on the the MP stuff but who knows. >At a very minimum, at least post a list of items that You guys recognized >as problems and fixed for the Upcomming patch, whenever it is released. >By the way, a note for your developers.... Microsoft has this thing >called Visual Basic. Along with Direct X, I'll bet it would really make >things easy for ya. HeHe. YukYuk. >---------------------------------------------------------------- >The United States Government allows You to buy >a home and call it your own, as long as You >continue to buy it back from them, each year... >Phil Bower, Micro-Second Computers

I agree 2000% Papy and Jim have givin us ZIP (empty) as far as what they are or are NOT doing to correct the problems with this Sim. Show some effort and give us some status or fixes, ..IF THERE IS OR ARE ANY!!!! Prove me wrong. Show us the PATCH NOT MORE PHONY EXCUSES such as," We can't give a date on a patch release cause we don't want to miss it" News for you. NO DATE = NO EFFORT & NO PATCH PERIOD!!!!!

Hey mom look at me, I can get on the Internet and make an ass of myself! Also, was it really necessary to quote his entire 80 line post? -- The IWCCCARS Project: Q & A Representative http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars/index.html-ssi http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

Quoted text (12 lines)

>Hey mom look at me, I can get on the Internet and make an ass of >myself! Also, was it really necessary to quote his entire 80 line >post? >-- >The IWCCCARS Project: Q & A Representative >http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars/index.html-ssi >http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ >> NO DATE = NO EFFORT & NO PATCH PERIOD!!!!!

Again .... More talk no results. Pit road is a good example (one of many ) of someone doing something to make this sim better. Compare that to PAPY . I'm surprised at ERIC standing behind Papy who has so far givin us nothing!!!! Who is the ass (quote)??? Does he need to resort to name calling?? When you don't have anything intelligent to offer maybe that's an example of their attitude towards the customers, who have already paid full price for a buggy sim!!!!

Quoted text (8 lines)

> I agree 2000% Papy and Jim have givin us ZIP (empty) as far as what > they are or are NOT doing to correct the problems with this Sim. Show > some effort and give us some status or fixes, ..IF THERE IS OR ARE > ANY!!!! > Prove me wrong. Show us the PATCH NOT MORE PHONY EXCUSES > such as," We can't give a date on a patch release cause we don't want > to miss it" News for you. NO DATE = NO EFFORT & NO PATCH > PERIOD!!!!!

So, let me get this straight: Basically what you're saying is "Tell us when the patch will be out. I don't care that you don't know exactly what's going to be in it, or exactly how much work has to be done. Just give us a date, set it in stone, and tell us how far along the patch is." And of course, if the patch is a day late, you won't be ***ing that they "lied" about when it will be out, will you? News for you--writing code (or patching code) is like designing a new weapon system--you're trying to invent something on a timeline. But inventing something (or fixing code) isn't a cut and dried process. Stuff comes up. Sometimes fixing one problem creates another. But nobody knows that until they start working on it. So, with all those variables in play, you're not mature enough to wait until they get the friggin thing done. You want your toy, and you want it _now_--"Create perfection, and damn quick. And tell me exactly when you'll create it." Remember that Papy was not created just to give you toys when you demand them. And just because they're not saying the exact day the patch will be ready, doesn't mean that they're not working on it. But software companies have learned the hard way that some people are impatient SOB's. If they announce a patch date, and that date has to slip, the same people who *** and moan about not having a date would *** and moan that the date turned out to be wrong. In short, grow up, get a life, and get a clue. -- Scott

Quoted text (9 lines)

> >Its been almost 4 months now and they are just considering the save > >game ...... give me a break. Papyrus is on the way down the tubes > >along with Sierra. > By my counting, it's been almost exactly three months... > (Of course, 4 months makes your argument sound a little better, until > someone with the facts shoots a great big hole in it.) > ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

Are we talking about the last time Papy updated their website here?

Quoted text (8 lines)

> I agree 2000% Papy and Jim have givin us ZIP (empty) as far as what > they are or are NOT doing to correct the problems with this Sim. Show > some effort and give us some status or fixes, ..IF THERE IS OR ARE > ANY!!!! > Prove me wrong. Show us the PATCH NOT MORE PHONY EXCUSES > such as," We can't give a date on a patch release cause we don't want > to miss it" News for you. NO DATE = NO EFFORT & NO PATCH > PERIOD!!!!!

I see kindergarden now has internet access, too.

Very few companies will state dates because, quite frankly, they almost never release a game on time. id for example, has the classic 'when it's done' or the next Quakeworld release which has been 'two weeks' off for quite some time now. It's just the nature of the business, learn to live with it. First everyone complains that N2 wasn't released on time, then they whine about the bugs when it was released. I for one would rather Papyrus had held the game and not released it until the bugs have been eliminated. It is my hope that this will hold true of the patch. -- The IWCCCARS Project: Q & A Representative http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars/index.html-ssi http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

>Before you send me UCE, I know what you're thinking... Did he complain >to five or six postmasters last month? Now, you must ask yourself one >question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do you, punk? Way off topic, but your sig is great. One guy I know has started putting "notches" in his sig, for each "spam kill", i.e. each spammer he gets knocked off the net. Sorry to interrupt. Back to your regularly scheduled programming... Dave Sparks IWCCCARS Project: [link lost in import] Late Night League: http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html Hawaii Handle: davids

> Wouldn't concern me whether it was 3 weeks or 3 months. The "delay" hasn't > stopped my enjoyment of the sim and at least Papyrus ARE producing a patch. > -- > Bruce #31 Indeed they are Bruce, but being in a state of producing something is not a virtue if the state doesn't result in something within a reasonable time. As far as I know the patch is vapour ware. Why don't Papyrus release several small patches, one fixing those two bugs, one adding a save game, etc, instead of this huge monster patch? This way everyone would be happy. But it seems that Papyrus doesn't agree. They say: "Let'em wait!! We haven't decided about the concept of producing a patch let alone the concept of the content of the patch. We're into vapour. It's money in vapour." Vapour money. Cheers! -- Terje Wold Johansen --- "I am your inferior superior" - O.W. ---

Quoted text (20 lines)

> > Wouldn't concern me whether it was 3 weeks or 3 months. The "delay" hasn't > > stopped my enjoyment of the sim and at least Papyrus ARE producing a patch. > > -- > > Bruce #31 > Indeed they are Bruce, but being in a state of producing something > is not a virtue if the state doesn't result in something within a > reasonable time. As far as I know the patch is vapour ware. > Why don't Papyrus release several small patches, one fixing those > two bugs, one adding a save game, etc, instead of this huge monster > patch? > This way everyone would be happy. But it seems that Papyrus doesn't > agree. They say: "Let'em wait!! We haven't decided about the concept > of producing a patch let alone the concept of the content of the > patch. We're into vapour. It's money in vapour." Vapour money. > Cheers! > -- > Terje Wold Johansen --- "I am your inferior superior" - O.W. ---

--Terje, how nice to hear from you again! I believe you are only the 3rd Norwegian to admit (here) that you are into Papyrus` sims! I have a friend at Langhus nr. Oslo, and we usually modemrace our wits out on Saturday "evenings". Let us know if you`d like to race N2 or ICR2 sometime....., and yeah, I`d praise all patches released, even though I still manage to waste my precious time fighting my T2....:-) Matthew, Norway (alias Birger Knutsen, Halden)

>Why don't Papyrus release several small patches, one fixing those >two bugs, one adding a save game, etc, instead of this huge monster >patch? Because most of the effort in producing a patch isn't expended in fixing bugs, it is expended in regression testing to make sure you haven't broken something else in the process. So the cost of producing two patches is nearly 2 times the cost of producing one, both in terms of time and money. Dave Sparks IWCCCARS Project: http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars Late Night League: http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html Hawaii Handle: davids

Name calling is an acceptable vent of frustration towards people who don't appear to have any knowledge of running a successful software house but who have ample opinions on the subject. I'd say Eric summed it up rather nicely without going into excruciating detail. That's not to say you don't reside in a company that does just what Papyrus and Microprose do, but I'd gather from your posts that N2 is simply undriveable, you're holding Papyrus hostage and you've turned to r.a.s. to post your "demands" as a means to fill in the lost gaps in your life. You haven't become worthy of a newsreader kill list yet, because you bring up issues of which we are all aware...it's just your approach and your impatience that make you seem more ignorant than most. But you have the right to ***... Kyle Stevens

Quoted text (12 lines)

> Its been almost 4 months now and they are just considering the save > game ...... give me a break. Papyrus is on the way down the tubes > along with Sierra. > On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:24:19 -0800, Jeff Hedges > >> > > The Imfamous save game everyone wants. > >> That's being considered for the patch.---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus > >> I would be thrilled to see something a little more concrete > >> >from You guys.

I can't believe some of the people on here. Your lucky you get ANYTHING from a Papyrus representitive here. I don't see any support from any other game company here. I'd be really interested as to what the mean age group is on here. I'm 30 so I guess I'm an old fart :) -- Let's pray there's intelligent life somewhere up there in space, Cause there aint' none here! Kel Calgary, Alberta CANADA

: Again .... More talk no results. Pit road is a good example (one of : many ) of someone doing something to make this sim better. Compare : that to PAPY . <snip> When you don't have anything intelligent to : offer maybe that's an example of their attitude towards the customers, : who have already paid full price for a buggy sim!!!! While Papyrus/Sierra have not yet provided any patches (other than the IExplorer/Install update), we have had received communication from their "unofficial" spokesperson regarding the patch. We have been told what certain things are being addressed and items they're "attempting" to fix in the upcoming patch. We have been told not to expect 4-5 little-bitty patches, but that the next patch will be a comprehensive patch. That is why the long delay. This makes sense, why waste programming and QA time with the "patch" routine 5-6 times, spend this time on fixing the problems. Papyrus has been keeping us informed, you either haven't been around or chose to ignore those messages! If you want to accuse a company of ignoring their customers, jump on Microprose and their support of GP2. Compared to Microprose support Papyrus and their yet to be released patch is 1000% better. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Oh, only THREE months? Well that makes things a whole lot better doesn't it. Reminds me of the joke about the Russian guy who put his name on the waiting list for a Lada car - 10 years he had to wait. Every year he diligently checked his place until nine years later he had a call from the factory to tell him that his Lada was now in production and would be ready for delivery in nine months time, 18th September and could he come and collect it. Sadly the guy said he couldn't be as he was expecting the guy round to fix his freezer on that day. Now the joke may be crap, but the guy could just as well be planning to download the NASCAR2 patch.... ;-) Cheers! John

Waiting for patches is like driveing Winston cup cars. Patience.... patience.... and more patience

Classic!

Quoted text (13 lines)

>>Hey mom look at me, I can get on the Internet and make an ass of >>myself! Also, was it really necessary to quote his entire 80 line >>post? >>> NO DATE = NO EFFORT & NO PATCH PERIOD!!!!! >Again .... More talk no results. Pit road is a good example (one of >many ) of someone doing something to make this sim better. Compare >that to PAPY . I'm surprised at ERIC standing behind Papy who has so >far givin us nothing!!!! Who is the ass (quote)??? Does he need to >resort to name calling?? When you don't have anything intelligent to >offer maybe that's an example of their attitude towards the customers, >who have already paid full price for a buggy sim!!!!

Oh for gods sake what is wrong with you fools. If your so ***y clever write the friggin patch your self and post it here for everyone to have. I am sure Jim and the boys will give you the credits and a share of the royalties that go with it and may-be you just might even get a job with em so you can feel the shits like you moaning about this is not right that is not right and so on. What do you want. A bugged patch or a one and only fix all patch. If its that bad sell it. Shane Lansky Hobart,Tasmania Australia