Why ICR2 drives like a pig????

>I have both ICR2 and GP2. The latter drives like the car is on rails. The >former drives like a big cadillac on ice with summer tires -- very tricky >to control. Does a real Indycar drive so miserably compared to an F1 car? >I have to be so precise, so delicate with the brakes, throttle and steering >with ICR2, whereas with GP2, I can jab and stab and yank my way around the >track without the car sliding into the barrier. Hello, Are you running ICR2 under windows95? If so, DONT! Use it under DOS and you will find it much easier to drive. The speed of the display makes a big difference on your ability to control the car. Try turnong off some of the deatil until the graphics are smooth. Also, the controller you are using makes a big difference. Steering wheel and pedals allow you to make fine adjustments while driving. Joystick control is either on or off, which tends to make you skid and slip more. It is true Indy Car II is much more difficult to drive than GP2, but if you can spend some time learning it, it is worth it. I get so into ICR2 that I can't sleep after racing because I am so wound up. In fact I actually beleive the stress is taking some time off my life. I even have to remeber to breath while I am racing. I personally much prefer realism over computer simulation. This way you are actually as close to the real thing as posiible, and not just doing what the computer needs in order to win the race. Paul

> I have both ICR2 and GP2. The latter drives like the car is on rails. The > former drives like a big cadillac on ice with summer tires -- very tricky > to control. Does a real Indycar drive so miserably compared to an F1 car? > I have to be so precise, so delicate with the brakes, throttle and steering > with ICR2, whereas with GP2, I can jab and stab and yank my way around the > track without the car sliding into the barrier. I suspect that ICR2 is a more realistic simulation. Ultra high performance cars like F1 or Indy cars have to be driven with a light touch in the real world. Read biographies of any of the great drivers and they will say that smooth control is the fastest way around the track. ICR2 is almost too difficult to drive for a normal person to have fun without crashing. But then what do you think would happen if you tried to drive a real Indy car in traffic at 180MPH? Probably crash on the first lap! Real race drivers have exceptional skills and years of practice before they drive Indy or F1 cars.

> I have both ICR2 and GP2. The latter drives like the car is on rails. The > former drives like a big cadillac on ice with summer tires -- very tricky > to control. Does a real Indycar drive so miserably compared to an F1 car? > I have to be so precise, so delicate with the brakes, throttle and steering > with ICR2, whereas with GP2, I can jab and stab and yank my way around the > track without the car sliding into the barrier. I have noticed the same effects with these 2 sims. I actually believe that real Indycars handle somewhere between the sims GP2 and ICR2. I have to practice A LOT harder to go fast in ICR2 than I do in GP2. Indycars do get sideways and can be overdriven to get faster laps much more readily than F1 cars, but likely not to the extreme depicted in ICR2. (The tires are still made of sticky ***!). GP2, on the other hand, seems to be either glued down or spinning into the gravel traps; no middle ground there. I have seen F1 cars on television driven much more loosely than that without spinning. F1 cars are much lighter than Indycars (roughly 250 lbs., I believe), and therefore should be a little more "glued down" than Indycars. Perhaps if each sim drove a little more like the other, they would both be more realistic. -- Matt & Audrey Lewis

I have both ICR2 and GP2. The latter drives like the car is on rails. The former drives like a big cadillac on ice with summer tires -- very tricky to control. Does a real Indycar drive so miserably compared to an F1 car? I have to be so precise, so delicate with the brakes, throttle and steering with ICR2, whereas with GP2, I can jab and stab and yank my way around the track without the car sliding into the barrier.

>I have both ICR2 and GP2. The latter drives like the car is on rails. The >former drives like a big cadillac on ice with summer tires -- very tricky >to control. Does a real Indycar drive so miserably compared to an F1 car? >I have to be so precise, so delicate with the brakes, throttle and steering >with ICR2, whereas with GP2, I can jab and stab and yank my way around the >track without the car sliding into the barrier. I find ICR2 more real than GP2. I sense little "too much game" rather than the simulator in GP2. If you ever drive at the limit of the car, you know what I mean. If anything, F1 cars should be a lot more sensitive to driver's input than Indycar due to their aerodynamic difference. "At the beginning of any project, a high level of e***ment can be found with a low level of execution." - Trevor Harris

Oh, yes. Most cars are really not "driven on rails" the way one might think. In reality, race cars are actually drifting. There is what is called slip angle, the difference between where the car is actually going and where the tires are pointing as they turn. If the angle is greater in the back, you get oversteering. Greater at the front, and the car "pushes." Even a car that has been sucessfully set up to handle neutrally is subject to this. Only that the slip angles on each wheel are more or less equal. Indy cars are more typical of race cars in general. Even though performance is phenomenal, they do not benefit from the hyperbolic technology available in F1 (even with restrictions). They are larger and heavier than F1 cars, and with considerable less available grip. It requires a different driving technique. In fact, one of the things both Michael Andretti and Jacques Villeneuve have commented on was how they had to adjust to the incredible grip of F1 cars. They had to adjust to greatly reduced braking distances, and cars that were very "twitchy." The difference was, apparently, great. F1 drivers like Nigel Mansell, who made the move to Indy Cars a few years ago, have expressed feelings almost identical to yours! I'd say your comments are an indication that the designers did their job, I suppose, in designing the driving models for their sims. Maybe this means they are in the right direction, after all. Good for us. BTW, I've never actually driven anything close to either, but I did have the opportunity to drive a friend's IMSA GTU car a few years ago. Of course, I was too busy "hanging on to the tiger's tail" to notice anything about slip angles! L.S.

That is great but I don't have hours upon years of time to practice a damn video game. ICR2 needed to be a bit more playable for people with less patients. But as far as N2 is concerned, IT SUCKS. The car still wiggles all over the track and it is nearly impossible to stay still between two cars when running 3 a***. As far as GP2, well I was pleased with the way the controls worked. I though the interface sucked and the joystick set up was not easy to figure out but that's no big deal. GP2 is a derivable sim and I have more fun playing it over ICR2 which requires high degrees of concentration. Eric > > I have both ICR2 and GP2. The latter drives like the car is on rails. The > > former drives like a big cadillac on ice with summer tires -- very tricky > > to control. Does a real Indycar drive so miserably compared to an F1 car? > > I have to be so precise, so delicate with the brakes, throttle and steering > > with ICR2, whereas with GP2, I can jab and stab and yank my way around the

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> > track without the car sliding into the barrier. > I suspect that ICR2 is a more realistic simulation. Ultra high > performance cars like F1 or Indy cars have to be driven with a light > touch in the real world. Read biographies of any of the great drivers and > they will say that smooth control is the fastest way around the track. > ICR2 is almost too difficult to drive for a normal person to have fun > without crashing. But then what do you think would happen if you tried to > drive a real Indy car in traffic at 180MPH? Probably crash on the first > lap! Real race drivers have exceptional skills and years of practice > before they drive Indy or F1 cars.

>I have both ICR2 and GP2. The latter drives like the car is on rails. The >former drives like a big cadillac on ice with summer tires -- very tricky >to control. Does a real Indycar drive so miserably compared to an F1 car? >I have to be so precise, so delicate with the brakes, throttle and steering >with ICR2, whereas with GP2, I can jab and stab and yank my way around the >track without the car sliding into the barrier. Two comments. First, have you tried ICR2 with the patch? It really improved the handling and made the Indycar handling seem much more realistic, no more of those uncontrollable spins, you can actually swing the back end out a bit without the whole car going into spin mode. Second, if you haven't done so, then try driving GP2 with all the help options off, it is not so easy to drive anymore once you have turned off steering help, brake help, opposite-lock help etc. Finally even in real life, there are BIG differences between an Indycar and a Formula 1 car, Indycars are much heavier and have worse braking, as well as having turbo engines, so you should expect them to be a bit more like a Caddilac on ice with summer tires <G> Not flaming either game here, I am a big fan of both games and both series. Cheers. --John -- Note: my real e-mail address is below. Delete the asterisks. ------------------------------+-------------------------- Seattle, Washington USA. | http://www.cool.com/~jsilva

> That is great but I don't have hours upon years of time to practice a damn > video game. sounds like you are in the wrong group, this is not rec.autos.videogames. SIM racing is what we do here. If you aren't good enough then you could admit it instead of asking companied to lower games to your skill level. BTW I have no problem controlling my driving in ICR2. no, more like you need to get some skill. most likely your controler it the problem here.

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> > I have both ICR2 and GP2. The latter drives like the car is on rails. The > > former drives like a big cadillac on ice with summer tires -- very tricky > > to control. Does a real Indycar drive so miserably compared to an F1 car? > > I have to be so precise, so delicate with the brakes, throttle and steering > > with ICR2, whereas with GP2, I can jab and stab and yank my way around the > > track without the car sliding into the barrier. > I suspect that ICR2 is a more realistic simulation. Ultra high > performance cars like F1 or Indy cars have to be driven with a light > touch in the real world. Read biographies of any of the great drivers and > they will say that smooth control is the fastest way around the track. > ICR2 is almost too difficult to drive for a normal person to have fun > without crashing. But then what do you think would happen if you tried to > drive a real Indy car in traffic at 180MPH? Probably crash on the first > lap! Real race drivers have exceptional skills and years of practice > before they drive Indy or F1 cars.

True, I'm sure ICR2 is closer to the actual feel of driving the simulated car, but sometimes realism needs to be sacrificed in the name of playability. I did find after buying a GP1 wheel that ICR2 is a little easier to control than with a joystick IMHO. -J.D. Ellis -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.uc.edu/~ellisjn Take the sign that says NO SHIRT, NO SHOES, NO SERVICE. Does this mean that as long as I have on a shirt and shoes I can take off my pants and still get the bacon cheeseburger? -Lewis Grizzard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<< I find ICR2 more real than GP2. I sense little "too much game" rather than the simulator in GP2. If you ever drive at the limit of the car, you know what I mean. If anything, F1 cars should be a lot more sensitive to driver's input than Indycar due to their aerodynamic difference. >> Well, I won the San Diego SCCA A/Street Prepared autocross title last year (in a real car), and I think GP2 is the more realistic simulation. If you aren't sliding your GP2 car around, you aren't going fast enough. The simulated feedback from the brakes and the way your car reacts on the limit is more realisic in GP2. The only reason the ICR2 cars slide more is that the program gives you less warning when the limit is reached. Things in ICR2 happen slower than they do in my 3200lb Corvette. ICR2 cars are just too easy to drive. Robin O. Brigstocke A/Street Prepared Champion SCCA San Diego Region '89 Corvette #351

Let me ask you a small question William. How many hours did you spend perfecting your driving on these sims. I bet it is not a small amount. My point here is that I could easily drive good with these sims if I spent hours upon hours praticing them. However I don't have the time so don't you think it would be fair to the public if these game companies offered options to help out the situation. I'm not talking about steering help, that sucks, I mean making the car stick a little better to the track etc....At one point I was pretty damn good at ICR2 but I had to spend hours playing to keep my skills sharp. The steering interface on GP2 is really playable. Since the rate of steering increases as you turn, it keeps the chance of over reacting to a minimum. I think Papyrus could have learned from this but they choose to stick with their same old driver since ICR1. There have been absolutely no improvements since the first version. Thanks for responding but your slight insult was not called for. Eric > > That is great but I don't have hours upon years of time to practice a damn

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> > video game. > sounds like you are in the wrong group, this is not > rec.autos.videogames. SIM racing is what we do here. If you aren't > good enough then you could admit it instead of asking companied to lower > games to your skill level. BTW I have no problem controlling my driving > in ICR2. > > ICR2 needed to be a bit more playable for people with less > > patients. > no, more like you need to get some skill. > > But as far as N2 is concerned, IT SUCKS. The car still wiggles > > all over the track and it is nearly impossible to stay still between

two > > cars when running 3 a***. > most likely your controler it the problem here.

ok you're right. I was not being very mature. I'm just scared that all PC sims will be Ridge Racer clones soon as the console/PC lines are being meshed. Many people have the "twichy" control problem in papy software. Some things to try: 1 get a wheel with big lock to lock 2 get a wheel with good restance 3 use non-linear stearing 4 play around with the wheel lock 5 stiffen front shocks (100%) 6 losen reaar shocks (0%) 7 set front anti-roll to the right 8 set rear anti roll to the left 9 raise rear wing more than front (ex. if you have ft 15 deg and rear 10 deg then switch them) Hope this helps and hope you can forgive my flames

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> Well, I won the San Diego SCCA A/Street Prepared autocross title last >year (in a real car), and I think GP2 is the more realistic simulation. If >you aren't sliding your GP2 car around, you aren't going fast enough. The >simulated feedback from the brakes and the way your car reacts on the >limit is more realisic in GP2. The only reason the ICR2 cars slide more is >that the program gives you less warning when the limit is reached. > Things in ICR2 happen slower than they do in my 3200lb Corvette. ICR2 >cars are just too easy to drive.

Thanks for the reply. It is interesting that two racers have different thought. Nothing wrong, just different. In GP2, I never got hang of the controls (that joy stick sensitivity thing which slows down the input at higher speed???). I also found that once you start sliding in GP2, I was going around no matter what I did. I felt absolutely no sense of controlling the car, rather I felt like I was playing a cheap Nintendo game. Just to show you where I come from, I am a member of Texas A&M Sports Car Club. Yes bunch of college kids who steal bunch of trophys every year at SCCA Solo II National (I've never attended due to $$$ reason). I have won top time of the day beating some of the nation's best. With my experience, things happen a lot slower in SS Corvette (no experience in ASP Corvette) and ICR2 than FP 260Z I was driving at the time. "At the beginning of any project, a high level of e***ment can be found with a low level of execution." - Trevor Harris

than the simulator in GP2. If you ever drive at the limit of the car, you know what I mean. << Yes I agree. I also get frustrated at the arcade-game dumb routines built in to GP2. I drive at ACE 1994 level with no aids at all and use a T2. The sim seems 95% simulator and 5% dumb arcade routines. This is especially noticeably at the edge of adhesion with no driver aids. The spin-out response gets very frustrating. For example you can clip an inside curb at low-ish speeds under little or not acceleration and the sim will spin you around. Very very unreal and a pain when it happens. The spin out rotation is most often 180d from the direction you were travelling before the spin commenced, with no regard at all to the appropriate physics of the situation. On a less important note, the menu system is one of the worst in modern day sims of any sort. Just count the number of actions required to change something !! Having said all that I should add that GP2 is still my favourite racing sim. Its just a pity they don't get rid of these arcade-game leftovers. Or do they actually think that people like the sim all the more because of these sort of things, and therefore are loath to change them ? I for one use the sim IN SPITE of these annoying aspects. They add nothing at all IMO. Regards Phillip McNelley

: I have both ICR2 and GP2. The latter drives like the car is on rails. The : former drives like a big cadillac on ice with summer tires -- very tricky : to control. Does a real Indycar drive so miserably compared to an F1 car? : I have to be so precise, so delicate with the brakes, throttle and steering : with ICR2, whereas with GP2, I can jab and stab and yank my way around the : track without the car sliding into the barrier. Well, I'll put my toe into the water... Or is that head into the noose? There is no pleasing everybody (and sometimes it seems anybody). Both games^h^h^h^h^h sims have their strengths and weaknesses. Alot of what many see as deficiencies in the sim are really deficiencies in the game controller used. Since I upgrade from my soundcard joystick port to a Thrustmaster ACM card, I find both ICR2 & GP2 more realistic. With ICR2, the car always seemed to be extremely hard to control, even when not being pushed to the limit. Alot of it was setup, but most of it turned out to be game controller sensitivity. With the 1.02 patch, traction was greatly enhanced. I can now find a decent setup and manage fairly consistant fast times on the tracks I've practiced. Also, being able to run 30 fps (using the Intergraph 3d card), improves handling immensely. However, ICR2 cars still seem to be balanced on a spindle at the center of gravity. I still find it hard to believe that a mere brush against another car at low speeds should cause the car to fly madly out of control. Hard braking is not modelled correctly (if at all). Before the ACM, I had to set the sensitivity levels in GP2 to high (or is that low) levels to get a good clean overall control of the car. Since installing the ACM I find that I can loosen up the sensitivity and still have even control of steering, braking, accelerating. This has greatly reduced the "slot car" feel I had experienced in GP2. However, I still feel that GP2 offers a little too much "stability" in the physics of handling. There is also the "flatness" of the tracks in GP2. Whereas ICR2 has camber and off-camber corners, all corners in GP2 are flat. I think if this had been modelled into the sim, I would find controlling the car a little bit more realistic. Then again, GP2 has curb effects where ICR2 has track vs. grass/dirt, but no curbs. Since being able to run ICR2 at 30 fps, I also believe my control in GP2 suffers from the fluctuating "real time" clock tied to the graphics of GP2. For me, and this is strictly personal, I have always gravitated back to Papyrus' sims over Geoff Crammonds'. I enjoy Geoff's work and appreciate it, but both World Circuit (GP1) & GP2, are close seconds to the enjoyment I received from Indy 500, ICR1, NASCAR, ICR2, NASCAR2. Some of this has to do with the simulation and some of it has to do with the more competitive racing not found in F1. Until I hear from someone who has raced both series in real life and spent some real seat time in the sim versions, I guess we will have this little conversation over and over again. For those of you who have posted that they need to find an "easier" sim to learn, drive NASCAR Racing 2 in arcade mode. I think it should fit the bill you are looking for. Well, my 2 cents worth... -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

... writing about GP2 I used to find the same thing absolutely annoying, but than I discovered that with different settings (dampers especially) the problem can be eliminated. I am no expert at all, but I'd suggest you to try to look for some help on GP2 advanced settings (the manual is not enough, for me). BYe, Luca

Michael, I agree with your discussion of the differences. The one important point you may have missed is GP2's very powerful autobraking feature at the rookie level. This is really a crash avoidance feature, as unless you flat out aim to crash, it will pretty much keep you on track while learning the game -- at a hefty price in lap times. Personally, I think it is a creative way to make a road racing sim accessible to new players. However, it would have been good if GP2 had a lesser degree of braking assistance, like that in ICR2, N1 and N2, for help at higher game levels. To me this is a controller issue, as the assistance makes joystick or keyboard play easier. I would note, though, that ICR2 does feel awfully twitchy in comparison to GP2. A lot of what people might be complaining about relates to the fact that you have to relearn ICR2's feel after running GP2. -- Al

> I have both ICR2 and GP2. The latter drives like the car is on rails. The > former drives like a big cadillac on ice with summer tires -- very tricky > to control. Does a real Indycar drive so miserably compared to an F1 car? > I have to be so precise, so delicate with the brakes, throttle and steering > with ICR2, whereas with GP2, I can jab and stab and yank my way around the > track without the car sliding into the barrier. Jacques Villeneuve has said that an F1 car requires more precision. It dances on the edge of a knife, so both he and Mansell have said. Likewise, Jacques has stated that in corners, and we all know this, and we all know this is where sliding is prominent, an F1 car, because of more downforce and less weight, is much faster and easier to drive (though physically, the G-force is greater). I can't recall what he said about losing it, though I do recall mention that because of an F1 car is much more sensitive its easier to lose it, and also, likewise, easier to regain control. As for the Sim side, having turned off steering help in GP2, I find it just as hard as ICR2, if not harder. Of course, since GP2 I haven't played ICR2 1.02, and probably never will again.

Hmmm, that makes alot of sense. Good to hear form someone who actually drives a race car. That I feel would give us the best opinion.. Eric

<snip> : I would note, though, that ICR2 does feel awfully twitchy in comparison to : GP2. A lot of what people might be complaining about relates to the fact : that you have to relearn ICR2's feel after running GP2. No kidding, I was about ready to chuck ICR2 when I came back to it after months of dedicated GP2 racing. I couldn't get the damn thing to turn or brake, and there just wasn't any get up and go (turbo lag?). But, after a few hours or re-learning I was acutally doing better than before. I found that I had learned a few things from driving GP2 that translated to driving ICR2. Especially braking. Since Papy doesn't really model the locking of the brakes like GP2 does, it's hard to judge when one is braking too hard. I find that I can jam the brakes in ICR2, hold it for a split second and then let up just a little. My braking and control has improved quite a bit. Too bad I have to use my imagination to recreate what is so apparent in GP2 under heavy braking. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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> That is great but I don't have hours upon years of time to practice a damn > video game. ICR2 needed to be a bit more playable for people with less > patients. But as far as N2 is concerned, IT SUCKS. The car still wiggles > all over the track and it is nearly impossible to stay still between two > cars when running 3 a***. As far as GP2, well I was pleased with the way > the controls worked. I though the interface sucked and the joystick set up > was not easy to figure out but that's no big deal. GP2 is a derivable sim > and I have more fun playing it over ICR2 which requires high degrees of > concentration. > Eric

Maybe you should stick to "Pole Postion" -- Ed "A friend of mine suggested I try America Online, I said 'But I already have a computer...'"

Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. But would it really kill anyone to make a MORON MODE for those that would just like to treat it like an arcade game? I love ICR2, but know quite a few people that won't buy it due to the difficulty. RaceFan

I found the same thing, GP2 has really improved my car control. When I went back to my favorite ICR2 track Elkhart Lake, I managed to break my old track record for that track without needing much practice, and this was after not playing ICR2 for a while, I think GP2 has really improved my car handling skills, probably the way it models brake lockup as well as having to learn to modulate the throttle when the car is off balance such as when bouncing off/over curbs etc. Sure is different from my old techniques for approaching a turn in ICR2: 1. Watch for the latest possible braking point. 2. Stomp on the brakes all the way, and crank the wheel hard. 3. Hope that you weren't barely off on your timing and the car won't go into spin mode. I can now more confidently trail brake into the turn, carrying some corner speed in a semi-controlled manner. Still gotta love that Elkhart Lake track, I wish there was some way that the FIA would have a U.S. Formula 1 GP there, I know the drivers would love the track. Also found that my stage times on Need For Speed have also improved. I'm hoping Papyrus models wheel lockups in their upcoming Classic F1 sim. Cheers. --John -- Note: my real e-mail address is below. Delete the asterisks. ------------------------------+-------------------------- Seattle, Washington USA. | http://www.cool.com/~jsilva

: Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. But would it really kill anyone to make a : MORON MODE for those that would just like to treat it like an arcade : game? I love ICR2, but know quite a few people that won't buy it due : to the difficulty. Papyrus did just this in NASCAR Racing 2 (Arcade Mode). -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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> > Still gotta love that Elkhart Lake > As last year's CART race showed there just isn't enough room for error or > run off to catch the errors for an F1 car - they're not quite as tough as > those Indy cars ;-) > It would be great to have a GP there though. It is a great track and if > only those safety improvements can be made I look forward to being able > to run it in GP3 <g>

About from the toughness of the cars ;) :F1 are as tough as indycars, but it always amazed me how you can clearly see the head, and once even shoulders, of a pilot above the***pit in F1 cars. Anyone care to comment on this? A part from that, I have the impression that Elkarth Lake and all the Indy tracks in general are too narrow for F1 cars. I surely hope that they change the regulations so to allow more overtaking in the future, admitting that everything they say about the impossibility of staying close to the preceding car is true. Bye, Luca

>I can now more confidently trail brake into the turn, carrying some corner >speed in a semi-controlled manner. Could you explain the concept of "trail braking?" Cheers, Pooch O-iiiii-O

I understand that the owner is very keen on getting a GP staged there but at the moment it falls way too short of the FIA safety standards :( As last year's CART race showed there just isn't enough room for error or run off to catch the errors for an F1 car - they're not quite as tough as those Indy cars ;-) It would be great to have a GP there though. It is a great track and if only those safety improvements can be made I look forward to being able to run it in GP3 <g> Cheers, Richard

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>>I can now more confidently trail brake into the turn, carrying some corner >>speed in a semi-controlled manner. >Could you explain the concept of "trail braking?" >Cheers, >Pooch

The conventional way to brake for a turn is to do all your braking in a straight line as you approach the turn, once you are at the desired corner speed, turn the car towards the apex of the turn, and accelerate out of the corner after hitting the apex of the turn. Using trail braking, you pick a later braking point into the corner start braking and turning into the apex of the corner while still carrying this extra speed, and do the remainder of your braking in this first part of the corner, then accelerate out of the corner after you hit the apex as you would normally. The advantage of trail braking being that you can often outbrake your opponent if they are not also trail braking, due to you being able to wait for a later brake point, and also that you are able to carry a bit more speed for just that bit extra time that you are entering the corner, almost as if you are stretching out the straight. The opinions on whether it actually works depends on who you talk to, I find that it helps especially when racing the computer AI and has helped out my lap times. One other braking technique that sounds very promising was one I read in an interview of Max Papis, the Indycar driver and a former great IMSA driver : "The most sensible approach you have to do when you run in a car that you don't know, is not to outbrake the car. Always try to be very smooth and gentle on the brake, instead of trying to go faster [by] braking later, I try to go faster by braking less. Always less and less, and, you know, always braking a little bit further down but not braking strong - always braking less, to be able to carry good speed. This is basically what I do." Original Interview at: http://www.speedcenter.com/interviews/sc_i0823.html Somehow, I am not that comfortable at any tracks yet where I can consistently be that smooth. Hope that helps, and these tips are only from my sim racing, one day I hope to test these theories out in a real racing school. The beauty of racing sims is that you can try these out for yourself without having to risk real equipment and bodily harm :-) Cheers. --John -- Note: my real e-mail address is below. Delete the asterisks. ------------------------------+-------------------------- Seattle, Washington USA. | http://www.cool.com/~jsilva

On Tue, 18 Feb 1997 19:17:13 +0000, Luca Varani >F1 are as tough as indycars, Not 100% sure about that ;-) Indycars are heavier and built to hit walls at very high speed. I doubt if Blundell would have survived his recent crash if it had been in an F1 car. F1 is probably much safer than CART these days, but that has more to do with circuit safety rather than the cars. With CART all the safety aspects go into the cars - there's no kitty litter at an oval! It was only after Senna's death that F1 woke up to the danger of bits of the car breaking off and hitting the driver. They've addressed it some what, but they still have a lot to learn from Indycars in this area. Nah, only need them wide enough to take one car these days :( Here, here! Get rid of that plank, reduce the amount of front wing and reduce braking power. Lets see them slide into the corners and out brake each other - just like CART really <g> F1 will always be my #1 love, but CART races are more fun to watch. And boy am I looking forward to Papy's 60's sim. If it is done right, we will all learn a lot more about what open wheel racing should be about <bg> Cheers, Richard

why buy a $60 dollar game only to get a weeks e***ment out of it? I love ICR2 because it's difficult to drive. After you've learned to drive the cars, you can win without feeling like a peach. What I want is a simulation, not an arcade game. I learned, I tried, I beat them. There has to be progression ( a learning process ) like starting from the back and finding out you're going quicker and quicker everytime you practice/race. I've seen some people complaining about how you can't get close enough without hitting the other cars in a fast corner. I had that problem too but now, I can do it with my eye's close and still not crash. It's an awesome feeling. If you want an arcade game, get screamer, destruction derby or hi-otane. well, I tried GP2 and I didn't like it one bit. The road was too narrow, I couldn't play without the steering braking thing, and it looked as if whenever I went off the track the game pulled me right back on it. I couldn't over take because the game locked your tires on the track and for me, it sucked.

>Hope that helps, It did, thanks. I've actually been doing that already in ICR2 and I've never played GP2 more than once. I personally learned it by racing on the Australia circuit a WHOLE LOT. Cheers, Pooch O-iiiii-O

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> >A part from that, I have the impression that Elkarth Lake and all the Indy tracks in > >general are too narrow for F1 cars. > Nah, only need them wide enough to take one car these days :( > >I surely hope that they change the regulations so to allow more overtaking in the future, > >admitting that everything they say about the impossibility of staying close to the > >preceding car is true.

Yeah, even if Elkarth Lake was wide as Cleveland those shitty drivers "a la Damon Hill" won't even try to pass in turns. They will try passing in the pits :) Hey, just larger pits area!! :) Remember the past of Villeneuve on Schum at Estoril. Only Indycar (oops CART) driver are able to do this (and Nascar driver also). All this point to say that F1 drivers are morons that are too chicken to lear to pass IN the track, not IN the pits. And can we talk about simulator please!! ;-) Thanks a lot, Good race at the Brickyard, (Old'Indytrack guy) [===] Go Rubens Barrichello, Jacques Villeneuve, | ! | And all you that thinks that Jacques Villeneuve is |!| from Canada, your right!! He's from St-Jean sur le |o| Richelieu, 30 minutes from Montreal, Quebec, Canada. [--I--] v Fran?ois Mnard "Wasupe LeGrand" Nien Numb in the National Star Wars League(X-Wing vs Tie-Fighter league) http://www.dakotacom.net/~strange/ http://www.starwars.com/ Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition,N2,Gp2,Icr2.How can my life be better? May the force be with you, always!! Que la force soit avec toi, jamais!(for you French people) Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking)