PAPY - N2 fixes wish list

I have waited to produce a bug fix/feature wish list since I felt that this is only possible after spending some time racing, editing etc. I have now reached a point where nothing new appears to happen ... Here is the list in priority order .... 1. Save Race Weekend - at least between sessions. This at a minimum will allow the drivers to be randomized seperately for qualifying and racing and thereby placing some of the better cars in the middle of the pack. Saving a race in progress also is high on my list in order to run 50-100% races with all their pitting strategy etc. 2. Yellow flags pace car and AI car behavior problems. There are many instances where the pace car gets hopelessly blocked behind a group of crashed cars. The crashed cars refuse to get going because they are waiting for the pace car - but the pace car's line is blocked and won't move either. There are also many cases where AI cars illegally pass under yellow and cause the pace line not to form for the restart. I have been caught 1/2 a lap down to the leader on restarts at Dover and Talladega on several occasions because the AI cars were not in correct order and thereby refused to line up. Of course, if I pass the cars that are not lining up - I get the old black flag. This stuff will put an end to a perfectly good race. 3. Pace car's entry onto the track is too close to the start-finish line. At some tracks - like Bristol - the AI cars go from 140 to 70 mph in 2 feet. You - the human driver - can't stop that quick and barrels into the back of the AI cars. At Talladega you also have to stop hard to avoid passing the pace car. In N1, you would catch the pace car down by turn 3 - much better. In general, pace car and yellow flag AI behavior was better in N1. Is there a "track".txt file parameter for this ?? 4. It appears at Talladega that the AI cars do not get a draft from my car. This is probably true at all tracks - but is most noticable at Talladega. Once I pass an AI car that is running laps as fast as me - he them seems to fall off. It would be great to see the AI car also use the slingshot draft to pass me back again. With modified Tally AI - I notice that 38 equal strength AI cars run close together lap after lap so long as I am running last. When I get in the middle - the AI cars behind me seem to loose the draft. 5. The AI cars at Talladega will loose too much speed when cut off. They should just change to an open line if available and stay up to speed. If a line is not available - then they should drop off. The problem this causes is a seperation of the field - particularly when the human gets involved - not driving the exact lines as the AI cars. Are there any settings in "track".txt or in the LP files themselves that may effect this ? This happens at all tracks - but causes the biggest problem at Talladega where you want to run in the draft with lots of other cars. 6. AI cars should not pit near the end of the race unless their tires are gone or they will run out of fuel. You could define an out of fuel lap count and an out of tires lap count and use these for end of race decisions. Also, when a yellow comes out during the race- the top cars shoud pit together. For example, currently you will see the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 6th place cars pit under caution and the 3rd,5th, and 7-10th place cars stay out. In general, this doesn't happen in WC racing. 7. Spotter needs to be muzzled after the yellow comes out. He continues to yell "go-low ... go-low". 8. Tweak the Rendition code to bring it to ICR2 levels. The existing Rendition support is great. We know from ICR2 that it can be even faster and better looking. 9. Sometimes the AI cars will make strange swirving moves etc. while entering the pits. This is mostly annoying - but sometimes they will actually crash into you while you are parked in your pit during these maneuvers. Not too bad! I find the bug count to be minimal and tolerable. Some of the pace cars, AI pitting and yellow flag problems due put and end to a race - which can be frustrating. However, a couple bug fixes and this is a top notch product. The developers should be proud and feel satisfaction that they delivered on a touch schedule. /THansen

if i could add something to your wish list i would want the problem with crashing and sliding down pit road or avoiding a wreck and going down pit road and then getting black flagged when there is nothing you could do

What about a S3 Virge VX version too, for all the euro people like me. And also, if i leave the pit slowly in practice, i get bashed by the AI cars!

I understand the the S3 Virge 3D chipset is too slow to be a realistic accelerator for N2. No Rendition adapters in Europe ? - too bad. I have not seen the problem leaving the pits. /THansen

[snip] I just wanted to point to Tom's post as an example of the kind of feedback that is likely to generate a positive response from Papyrus. You'll note that Tom doesn't make threats about never buying another Papyrus product, he doesn't call it the buggiest piece of software ever written. What he does is point out some flaws in the product, and in some cases, offers reasonable solutions. Thanks for a nice post, Tom. I hope we can see more posts of this caliber from others, rather than the emotional outbursts that have plagued the group over the last few weeks. Dave Sparks IWCCCARS Project: http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars/index.html Late Night League: http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html Hawaii Handle: davids

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> Adding to thread: > Don't forget to give us humans back control of how much fuel to put in > the cars during pit stops. > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Junk e-mail senders are treated with the same contempt as "for sale" > list posters and BMW, Saab, Volvo and Explorer drivers so Just Don't > Send Them! You _will_ be harrassed. > Busch North info on the Web: http://www.vgernet.net/aclaffie/bgnn/ > Internet Grand National for the best of offline sim racing: #93 >Buick!

No don't do that. I like the fuel management to be be done by the computer. I can concentrate more on the race. Cowen Wilson

Adding to thread: Don't forget to give us humans back control of how much fuel to put in the cars during pit stops. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Junk e-mail senders are treated with the same contempt as "for sale" list posters and BMW, Saab, Volvo and Explorer drivers so Just Don't Send Them! You _will_ be harrassed. Busch North info on the Web: http://www.vgernet.net/aclaffie/bgnn/ Internet Grand National for the best of offline sim racing: #93 Buick!

> I understand the the S3 Virge 3D chipset is too slow to be a realistic > accelerator for N2. No Rendition adapters in Europe ? - too bad. > I have not seen the problem leaving the pits. > /THansen Too slow, why?, anyway N2 runs ok on my PPro 200. I got bashed when i hung around in the pits of sears point, about a min after staring the practice session. I think theres one rendition in europe, but a lot more virge vx's --Sam

It's not a fix, but it's a wish for future games. I don't mind the present field size, even though it is smaller than realistic, but I do think that it would be cool far championship mode to be able to have say 45 or even fifty people qualify with only 39 or so make it. That way I feel I am racing against everyone all the time. That is one of my biggest enjoyments of the game. "Simulating" a race with the Winston Cup drivers, all stars, Grand National drivers, etc. I enjoy the game greatly and mybe this can be considered for future N3, N4? I just want to re-emphasise the fact that this is not a problem with the game, it's something that would be interesting to have. Dan Sorek

>> Don't forget to give us humans back control of how much fuel to put in >> the cars during pit stops. >No don't do that. I like the fuel management to be be done by the >computer. I can concentrate more on the race. But the computer's way too conservative for a dyed-in-the-wool no-holds-barred throw-caution-to-the-wind cut-every-damn-corner-close driver such as myself :P Next thing ya know we won't be able to choose whether to take two or four or no tires next pit stop.... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Junk e-mail senders are treated with the same contempt as "for sale" list posters and BMW, Saab, Volvo and Explorer drivers so Just Don't Send Them! You _will_ be harrassed. Busch North info on the Web: http://www.vgernet.net/aclaffie/bgnn/ Internet Grand National for the best of offline sim racing: #93 Buick!

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> >> Don't forget to give us humans back control of how much fuel to put in > >> the cars during pit stops. > >No don't do that. I like the fuel management to be be done by the > >computer. I can concentrate more on the race. > But the computer's way too conservative for a dyed-in-the-wool > no-holds-barred throw-caution-to-the-wind cut-every-damn-corner-close > driver such as myself :P > Next thing ya know we won't be able to choose whether to take two or > four or no tires next pit stop....

I agree, control needs to be in our hands. We should be able to choose whether we want to let the crew chief (computer) make those decisions. I don't believe that NASCAR rules say you must fill your tank at every pit stop. We should be able to fill to any amount we want after the race starts. So the fill line should be adjustable by us. Then let the crew make sure the fill line isn't exceeded. David Martin

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> It's not a fix, but it's a wish for future games. I don't mind the > present field size, even though it is smaller than realistic, but I do > think that it would be cool far championship mode to be able to have say > 45 or even fifty people qualify with only 39 or so make it. That way I > feel I am racing against everyone all the time. That is one of my > biggest enjoyments of the game. "Simulating" a race with the Winston Cup > drivers, all stars, Grand National drivers, etc. I enjoy the game > greatly and mybe this can be considered for future N3, N4? I just want > to re-emphasise the fact that this is not a problem with the game, it's > something that would be interesting to have. > Dan Sorek

I'd call it a problem. But that's just me. :-) David

>What about a S3 Virge VX version too, for all the euro people like me. >And also, if i leave the pit slowly in practice, i get bashed by the AI >cars! I'm all for a S3 Virge version and I'm in the U.S. -=A=-

: I agree, control needs to be in our hands. We should be able to choose : whether we want to let the crew chief (computer) make those decisions. : I don't believe that NASCAR rules say you must fill your tank at every : pit stop. We should be able to fill to any amount we want after the : race starts. So the fill line should be adjustable by us. Then let the : crew make sure the fill line isn't exceeded. This is especially true at some tracks where tire wear far exceeds fuel consumption. I would rather come into pit and get a gallon or so over what I know my tires can handle. Hell, 1-2 seconds in the pits could be a position or 2 on the track. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I'd be happy with an Anti-Aliasing switch like in ICR2

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>>What about a S3 Virge VX version too, for all the euro people like me. >>And also, if i leave the pit slowly in practice, i get bashed by the AI >>cars! >I'm all for a S3 Virge version and I'm in the U.S. >-=A=-

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>: I agree, control needs to be in our hands. We should be able to choose >: whether we want to let the crew chief (computer) make those decisions. >: I don't believe that NASCAR rules say you must fill your tank at every >: pit stop. We should be able to fill to any amount we want after the >: race starts. So the fill line should be adjustable by us. Then let the >: crew make sure the fill line isn't exceeded. >This is especially true at some tracks where tire wear far exceeds fuel >consumption. I would rather come into pit and get a gallon or so over >what I know my tires can handle. Hell, 1-2 seconds in the pits could be >a position or 2 on the track.

WC crews nearly always fill the car except on the last stop. The cars are set up for a full load of fuel, since NASCAR requires that they start on a full load. When you take on less fuel, the car tends to develop a push. I don't really mind having the crew chief make the decision, since everybody is going to be subject to the same rules (thinking NRO here). However, "he" does tend to be overly conservative at times, putting in 10 gals when 5 or 6 will do. Dave Sparks IWCCCARS Project: [link lost in import] Late Night League: http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html Hawaii Handle: davids

It doesn't matter how much fuel there is in the car because the car doesn't run faster with less fuel in N2. I like having the computer control the fuel. You can concentrate on the race. Besides, the crew chief decides the fuel load in real nascar racing. Cowen Wilson http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/7137

: or maybe a way to control whether we or the computer make the choice !!! I agree, I agree. Especially when it comes to the gas can. My pit chief always gives me too darn much. I can calculate it much better. And I'd fire him if I could. Matt : > > >> Don't forget to give us humans back control of how much fuel to put : in : > > >> the cars during pit stops. : > > >No don't do that. I like the fuel management to be be done by the : > > >computer. I can concentrate more on the race. : > > But the computer's way too conservative for a dyed-in-the-wool : > > no-holds-barred throw-caution-to-the-wind cut-every-damn-corner-close : > > driver such as myself :P : > > Next thing ya know we won't be able to choose whether to take two or : > > four or no tires next pit stop.... : > > : > : > I agree, control needs to be in our hands. We should be able to choose : > whether we want to let the crew chief (computer) make those decisions. : > I don't believe that NASCAR rules say you must fill your tank at every : > pit stop. We should be able to fill to any amount we want after the : > race starts. So the fill line should be adjustable by us. Then let the : > crew make sure the fill line isn't exceeded. : > : > David Martin : >

> or maybe a way to control whether we or the computer make the choice !!! > -- > " Are you pondering what I'm pondering?" "Yeah, but how are we going to get into the M&M shell without breaking it." - Pinky

On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:08:04 -0800, Cowen Wilson >It doesn't matter how much fuel there is in the car because the car >doesn't run faster with less fuel in N2. It might not matter at Talladega, but it certainly matters at Martinsville, North Wilkesboro, and Bristol... The changing fuel load is simulated, and on short tracks, it might be good for a tenth or two per lap... ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

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> On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:08:04 -0800, Cowen Wilson > >It doesn't matter how much fuel there is in the car because the car > >doesn't run faster with less fuel in N2. > It might not matter at Talladega, but it certainly matters at > Martinsville, North Wilkesboro, and Bristol... The changing fuel load > is simulated, and on short tracks, it might be good for a tenth or two > per lap... > ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

My personal opinion is still not changed. Ilike for the computer to control the fuel load. Maybe you could make the computer not be so conservative. It does seem to put to much in near the end of the race. Cowen Wilson ------------------- http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/7137

That's why he's one of the most respected person in this newsgroup. I think you're doing a great job doing this list and I hope that Papy will considerate this. I think your list is just the OK stuff for the first patch. It's not to demanding for Papy and it's not "I want Indy and Daytona and rain and snow and tire with spikes and 38 player Internet connection league free and flips and sun glare and balblablabla" Hey you're one of the people who's in my list of making people HAPPY! Don't stop the work Tom (all the good boy's also like D. Sparks, E.Busch, M.Carver and all the other fellow racer). HAPPY!HAPPY! I just would love to be able to access the paintkit from Win'95 or Dos. Good race at the Brickyard, [===] Go R. Barrichello, go J.Gordon, go J.Villeneuve, go | ! | And all you that thinks that Jacques Villeneuve is |!| from Canada, your right!! He's from St-Jean sur le |o| Richelieu, 30 minutes from Montreal, Quebec, Canada. [--I--] v Fran?ois Mnard "Wasupe LeGrand" Nicolas Mnard "Nien Numb" Nien Numb in the National Star Wars League (X-wing vs Tie-Fighter league) http://www.dakotacom.net/~strange/ May the force be with you, always!! Tu ne peut sous-estimer le pouvoir du c?t obscur!! (for you French people) Excuse me for my poor English (I'm French speaking) | _ | / _ \ |=(_)=| / _ _ \ |-=(_)=-| | | |=(_)(_)=| \ / \ " /

writes: Wouldn't that make for a great random event?? Once in a blue moon, not putting enough fuel in...Man I can hear the screaming now...."I was in first by two laps and I ran outa gas....!!!!" It happens... Dave Henrie

Funny you should mention that... While running a 50% race at Tally, the spotter / crewchief told me that I ' should ' have enough fuel to make it to the end. Well, they were right, but not by much. Ran out of gas while leaving turn 2 after getting the checkerd flag. Gee, maybe I should have pitted, but he didn't tell me that I _had_ to come in until I was passing the pits for the last time. Red tires, no fuel. He does tend to get e***d, doesn't he? :-) Robert

It's pretty hard to guess fuel mileage for Talladega. Fuel usage varies a lot, depending on whether you're in the draft or not. LOL! I thought it was pretty funny when I was in the lead on the last lap of the race, coming out of Turn 3 at Pocono, and my crew chief was telling me to "pit this time around". HAH! Ran out of fuel about 100 yards past the start/finish line. Dave Sparks IWCCCARS Project: [link lost in import] Late Night League: http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html Hawaii Handle: davids

I have a N2 fix wish. Although the AI seem to do a pretty good job getting off of the track on a green flag pit, I'd like to see maybe a hand raised in the pitting AIs'***pit about a quarter lap from the pit indicating that he'll be dropping down to pit. I think maybe this would give some compensation for the lack of depth perception in the sim; a condition which, for me anyway, is the cause of most of my accidents. In the same vein perhaps and audible clue or a small visual legend on the screen could be used to help determine those last few critical inches between "door to door" and "end to end". :) For the audible warning it could just be the engine getting louder or the sound of wheel barely touching the other car. For the visual, maybe a small color bar that appears just to the left of the rearview mirror. Just a few thoughts. Regards, Greg Gavel on Hawaii,Kahn, and TEN

That's a good idea, something I was thinking about as well. Sometimes they take that funny line to the outside in T4 and then cut across the track. Very annoying. Seems like even without adding the graphic cues, you could have the spotter call out if an AI car is pitting under green. You race close, don't ya! ;) I think the new mirrors do a pretty good job of conveying that information. I don't trust the AI enough to race much closer than a couple of feet from them. One thing I have noticed that you're much less likely to spin when you touch another car than in N1. This seems a lot more realistic and will make close racing in the NRO a little safer. Dave Sparks IWCCCARS Project: [link lost in import] Late Night League: http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html Hawaii Handle: davids