Nascar 2 bugs

You guys just don't understand the bottom line. Although Nascar 2 is easily the most buggy piece of commercial software at this level ever released, Papyrus has explained over and over there was just not enough time to fix all the bugs and get in all the missing features before Christmas. As much as 40% of annual sales come during Christmas so missing Christmas was just never an option. Try and explain to the suits upstairs that Nascar 2 was going to be a few days late so you could get the in 'save race' feature. Yea, sure. Who was going to sign that memo. Lets examine the options here. 1) Nascar 2 ships on time and everyone still has a job. 2) Nascar 2 misses Christmas and no more milk in the baby's bottle. Duh... The good news is that NASCAR will require that any bugs affecting the NRO be corrected before the NRO goes on line. As for the others, well, thats whats Nascar 3 is for. So come on guys, try to see this from Papyrus's view. It was your $40.00 bucks against their twenty million. Be realistic. -- Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA RaceTime utility program for Nascar1/Indycar2. http://www.metronet.com/~cstuart/

Papyrus had the option of holding the game until after Christmas to fix the bugs, but they chose to release it as is (a bad move IMHO). They should have taken a look at one of the most anticipated games of the year, Diablo. Blizzard was trying as hard as they can to get this game out (including employees canceling holiday trips and sleeping in the office), but it's very unlikely that the game will make it out by Christmas. They are doing us a favor by not releasing a game that they know has bugs. Instead they are sacrificing the added sales that come with the Christmas season, in favor of releasing a quality product. This is the kind of dedication to the consumer that more companies should have. Papyrus is starting to fit right in with Sierra, caring only about the bottom line and not the consumer. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences The IWCCCARS Project: Q & A Representative Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

While I'm unaware at what goes on over at Blizzard, I can assure you that N2 wasn't released just for the sake of Christmas...True, as Chuck points out that nearly 40% of Papy's sales are during the holiday season, and without these sales, N2 would either die a slow and painful death (due to a slow release), or bug-fixes would continuously be delayed (due to lack of funds), but Papy's boys have also given-up their time and weekends - these are the realities of the computer industry, and not exclusive to one or two companies. Whatever you (or others) may think, NASCAR-2 is a solid product IMO... The bugs are annoying, yet trivial, and easily fixed. The released product has never crashed on my system, and I can assure you that I've put N2 through its paces. I've also never enjoyed anything as much as N2, and most of this comes from modem-play...I might have had a pretty good time at GP2 had MPS put more effort into this feature. Sure, you can save a race, but you can't easily race your buddy...unless you use null-modem. Also, you won't see too many companies sticking their collective necks out here on the various newsgroups - Jim, Ed, Adam, Mike, and several others are always around to answer questions, lend a hand, and occasionally shoot the bull...However, if people continue to bad-mouth them (or even tell them how to run their business), you can bet that they'll just get tired of trying and not return here. My main point is that quite a few of these threads concerning N2's bugs are a waste of bandwidth - and I'm as guilty as the next - so it's probably time to give it a rest. Let's give the guys at Papyrus a break so they can do what they do best - their job. :) We now return you to our regularly scheduled program now in progress... Best Regards, Marc Marc J. Nelson Sim Racing News - USA http://members.aol.com/simracing/index.htm

> While I'm unaware at what goes on over at Blizzard, I can assure you that > N2 wasn't released just for the sake of Christmas... While I bow to you in all things sim, I stick to my statement that missing Christmas was never an option. Reread your own post for the reasons. -- Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA RaceTime utility program for Nascar1/Indycar2. http://www.metronet.com/~cstuart/

Well, I would like to give the Papyrus guys the benefit of the doubt, but this is exactly the same song-and-dance that we got with Indycar2. ICR2 shipped with known bugs in order to meet the XMas deadline, and they said would soon be patching the problems, however, we didn't get a patch until 9 months later. Even after the patches there were some serious and obvious bugs that haven't been fixed (yellow flag bugs) and it now appears that ICR2 is an orphan product now that they have gone on to other projects. I really hope that Papyrus doesn't do the same thing with Nascar2. I still bought it after hearing about the improved AI and fixed tracks, but I am no longer a blind loyal buyer of their software. Their support of Nascar 2 will show whether they are committed to putting out a decent product or not, and since I think Nascar has a bigger widespread fanbase than the more cult-following of ICR2 the Papyrus folks will have much more to lose if they make the same mistakes supporting and patching Nascar 2 in the same manner that they abandoned the people who bought ICR2. I really hope they learned their lesson with ICR2. Although I am having fun with Nascar2 as it is, I am counting on the bugs being fixed and to one day enjoying a polished product. Cheers. --John -- Note: my real e-mail address is below. Delete the asterisks. ------------------------------+-------------------------- Seattle, Washington USA. | http://www.cool.com/~jsilva

easily the most buggy piece of commercial software at this level ever released, Papyrus has explained over and over there was just not enough time to fix all the bugs and get in all the missing features before Christmas.<< Well what kind of lame excuse is that? that's like buying a car and the dealer says to you, SORRY Sir but we didn't have time to put in the engine, it's Christmas you know and we must sell to keep our jobs. BS!!!!!!!. The question is when are you people going to QUIT defending these software companies for these lame excuse's about producing half programmed programs. GEES!!!. Just with everything else we buy we want it RIGHT and not some excuse about someone's job on the line. Each company and there employees must be help responsible for their products and it IS NOT up to us to take the FALL. days late so you could get the in 'save race' feature. Yea, sure. Who was going to sign that memo.<< If you can't keep up with the BIG DOGS, stay on the porch. bucks against their twenty million. Be realistic.<< Yeah let's be realistic, how did YOU come up with this 20 million dollar figure?. Also don't YOU care as a consumer about the products you buy? the cost is not the issue here. It doesn't matter if N-2 was $40.00 or $400.00, it should be right the first time and BUG FREE. I've been in racing for years and I like this game as good as the next man, but I'm NOT going to stand by and have this SUPER BUG software just thrown at me. SG

Marc has a good point here. I am presently working as a Quality Software Engineer. The project I am working on I cna say we have bugs like every other project has. You have to weight the bug priorty (does it crash the game or is it a minor nuisance) against the cost of not shipping. For example: If the bugs are a minor nuisance and the user can get around them real easy than the product should be shipped. Fix it during the maintenence cycle and release a upgrade or patch. Now if there are 100 minor nuisance bugs and it hurts the users confidence in the software than yes hold up the shipping for that product until the number of nuisance bugs are reduced. I am a N2 user and looking at the product as a Software Quality Engineer I can say I believe papyrus did make the right decision. This is only My Humble Opinion. Remember you can never make perfect software but you can try to make it as robust as possible with a limited cyle time and development money.

I think it is totaly unfair to call N2 SUPER BUG software. The game has never crashed on me once. How about you? While N2 does have it's troubles it is easily playable & fun. The same cannot be said for a real SUPER BUG piece of garbage called BattleCruiser 3000 AD.

With all this talks about N2 being 'super buggy', I tend to disagree. Virtually all of the bugs I've read about or seen are quite minor. To me, a major bug would be the computer bombing out, scrambled graphics, etc.. (I don't really count the IE mangling, as that was more to do with the TEN install, not N2.) So far, I haven't seen a full list of 'bugs' or 'quirks'. And I mean things that don't work right, not items promised but missing. This is what I can think of off the top of my head: 1) You cannot load custom car setups unless you do a full install. 2) You are sometimes towed through walls or other cars. 3) The spotter sometimes get's stuck on 'Go High, Go Low' 4) The AI cars sometimes dart toward the pits, then change their mind and pop back out to the track. Mabe someone could keep track of these, and make an 'official' list. Personally, I think N2 is a great improvement over N1 or even ICR2. The release version is also much easier on the computer than the Beta was. On my P133 w/ 4M Millenium, I rarely have any graphics turning off. (Everything is Auto except skid marks.)

I agree. The content is really good but I took it off my machine because of having to spend (waste) my time trying to get it to work with "off the shelf" hardware. I would rate the underlying parts as a piece of "hack, early eighties" software. The MechWarrior2 run great on the Win 95......Sierra mis-read the market and now the finger pointing begins.

Chuck, I would disagree with you on one point! The most buggy piece of software I have seen of late is NHL97! Great game play, great graphics but flawed extensively in support for modems, game pads, player AI etc. They released a patch that was almost totally worthless and there support is non-existant and I can't remember the last time I saw Electronic Arts on one of the news groups. I realize this isn't the right news group for this but I think Papyrus beats this record quite easily! Pete

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> You guys just don't understand the bottom line. Although Nascar 2 is > easily the most buggy piece of commercial software at this level ever > released, Papyrus has explained over and over there was just not enough > time to fix all the bugs and get in all the missing features before > Christmas. > As much as 40% of annual sales come during Christmas so missing > Christmas was just never an option. Try and explain to the suits > upstairs that Nascar 2 was going to be a few days late so you could get > the in 'save race' feature. Yea, sure. Who was going to sign that memo. > Lets examine the options here. > 1) Nascar 2 ships on time and everyone still has a job. > 2) Nascar 2 misses Christmas and no more milk in the baby's bottle. > Duh... > The good news is that NASCAR will require that any bugs affecting the > NRO be corrected before the NRO goes on line. As for the others, well, > thats whats Nascar 3 is for. > So come on guys, try to see this from Papyrus's view. It was your $40.00 > bucks against their twenty million. Be realistic. > -- > Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA > RaceTime utility program for Nascar1/Indycar2. > http://www.metronet.com/~cstuart/

Eric, I would disagree on a couple of points. First, I do know for a fact that employees from Papyrus work 24 hours a day if it is required to get the work done. I can atest to this from first hand experience! I also know there are many dedicated and caring employees working there. Most if not all of the employees actually extensively use and race their products and have league races going on after hours in which most seem to partcipate. I have seen posts in this group claiming that they aren't serious racers and don't listen to our needs. I know this is not the case! But I also know that financial constraints and decrees from Head Office play a large role in what does and doesn't get done. I'm sure if they could say and do all the things they would like we would have a different looking game. But lets face it, smaller companies that may be owned by employees might have some greater latitude to the end product but eventually the bottom line still comes into being. It is an unfortunate fact of life! Pete P.S. Haven't seen you in awhile! Are you coming back for second season of Night Owl?

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> Papyrus had the option of holding the game until after Christmas to fix > the bugs, but they chose to release it as is (a bad move IMHO). They > should have taken a look at one of the most anticipated games of the > year, Diablo. Blizzard was trying as hard as they can to get this > game out (including employees canceling holiday trips and sleeping in > the office), but it's very unlikely that the game will make it out by > Christmas. They are doing us a favor by not releasing a game that they > know has bugs. Instead they are sacrificing the added sales that come > with the Christmas season, in favor of releasing a quality product. > This is the kind of dedication to the consumer that more companies > should have. Papyrus is starting to fit right in with Sierra, caring > only about the bottom line and not the consumer.

Marc, a well thought piece with which I'm in total agreement with you on. I also know for a fact that Papyrus will look at others software and if somebody comes up with a better way of creating a good sim, will certainly consider what they have done. I don't think anyone or any group pretends to exclusively be the only ones to produce good ideas or good software and can't learn from what others are doing. That's why I would suggest to all those that want a good end product take up Jim's offer of forwarding to him ideas and suggestions for the upcoming Nascar 3. If Papyrus has enough lead time, I'm sure there can be no excuse other than financial constraints for excluding a good idea. I was very fortunate a few months ago to get to Boston and visit Papyrus and it changed my perspective on many things. And even though I won't always agree with the way somethings are done I do have a better understanding of why! Pete

What??? I did NOT install the TEN software, and my IE was totally trashed. Scrambled Graphics? That's what I got when I retried to run the auto-update program, along with Windows 95 losing track of my IDE CD-ROM, and dropping to DOS mode rather than 32 bit disk access on my Western Digital drives. The program was rushed through beta and should not have come out this Christmas. You won't see a full list of 'quirks' on this program for a wile, as new ones pop up every day. Have you tried racing with a modem with N2 yet? Try running a modem race, run through the qualifying, and qualify in first or second place. If you were the caller, you start the race at the back of the pack. Sounds like a bug to me, but who am, just another Sierra post-production beta tester. The closest I have seen to a list of things wrong with N2 is located at: http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/Features/N2FAQ.txt But this still leaves some items out. Yes, the program is nicer looking, but they rushed it to market, and we are the ones that have to re-install other software (for me IE 3.01, and Windows 95 again), luckily the Win95 install only had to be installed over the old one, and not a total "from scratch" installation. Why couldn't they take the lead from other companies, for instance Hewlett Packard's "Tape Access Software" that was supposed to be mailed out in the beginning of November. They stopped shipment as soon as they discovered bugs with it that had not been detected in beta. Sierra, on the other hand is stamping out CD-ROMs as fast as they can, hoping they can come up with a patch 'someday'.

Well, maybe we'll just get tired of post production beta testing their software for them and quit buying anything from Sierra. Nascar Racing 2 had a chance to be everything N1 was, but no matter what anyone says, it was a Christmas rush job. Beta testers have even said that when it comes down from corporate that the program is shipped on such and such day, that's the day it goes out, whether it is ready or not. You also say that you race it by modem. Do you qualify during a modem race? If you do, does the calling party get shoved to the back? If not, how are you accomplishing this, as everyone else has a problem with this if they qualify for a race?

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> Marc has a good point here. I am presently working as a Quality Software > Engineer. The project I am working on I cna say we have bugs like every > other project has. You have to weight the bug priorty (does it crash the > game or is it a minor nuisance) against the cost of not shipping. For > example: If the bugs are a minor nuisance and the user can get around > them real easy than the product should be shipped. Fix it during the > maintenence cycle and release a upgrade or patch. Now if there are 100 > minor nuisance bugs and it hurts the users confidence in the software > than yes hold up the shipping for that product until the number of > nuisance bugs are reduced. > I am a N2 user and looking at the product as a Software Quality Engineer > I can say I believe papyrus did make the right decision. This is only My > Humble Opinion.

REPLY: Yeah but from a multiplayer view of N2 there are a 100 little bugs. So then N2 fails under your criteria. Latest bugs found over x-mas: Both Michigan and Pocono are unplayable in a LAN enviroment AFAIK. For some reason the game will crash about 10 seconds into the race. Practive works fine but the race is not. I still have yet to try every course multiplayer so I'm not sure if there will be others or not. If somebody has these working please correct me so I can look at my systems more carefully. One's that works: Charolette Rock Bristol Talladega Martinsville Q.B.M.

I have just found a tiny bug and I am not sure if it is in single player or not. I was driving practice laps at taladega with a friend over the modem with the spotter calling my laps out. I also had F2 displaying the times. I ran a 49.066 one lap and that was the quickest up to that point and he would call it out and it would show up the fastest on the F2 display. Then, the very next lap I ran a faster 49.041 and the spotter called out the 49.066 and the F2 showed the new lap. I had it happen a few times in that practice session, but haven't noticed it again. This is only a very small thing and figured I would put it out here since I haven't seen it yet. Overall, this is the BEST simulation I have seen and am VERY happy with it. Good Job Papyrus! GGB3

I have had a problem with the spotter not even calling out lap times during a race. He acknoledges the ALT-O and then doesn't tell me my lap times. Come to think of it, this has happened during practice as well. Just another little annoying bug. --- () http://www.pacifier.com/~dtuso () Dominic Tuso () http://www.nicad.com/ () For you NiCd needs () http://www.teleport.com/~cramark () R/C car racing club () http://www.teleport.com/~lzwz/rcsr.htlml () R/C car racing club

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> I have just found a tiny bug and I am not sure if it is in single player > or not. I was driving practice laps at taladega with a friend over the > modem with the spotter calling my laps out. I also had F2 displaying the > times. I ran a 49.066 one lap and that was the quickest up to that point > and he would call it out and it would show up the fastest on the F2 > display. Then, the very next lap I ran a faster 49.041 and the spotter > called out the 49.066 and the F2 showed the new lap. I had it happen a few > times in that practice session, but haven't noticed it again. This is only > a very small thing and figured I would put it out here since I haven't > seen it yet. Overall, this is the BEST simulation I have seen and am VERY > happy with it. Good Job Papyrus! > GGB3

Hmm, I was running a Kali race today and noticed a similar phenom. Ran a lap, time given, another lap, identical time. Didn't happen all the time, but did happen quite often that 2 laps were identical. Now I am trying to run smooth and consistent, but now I'm wondering if it another little bug.

I may be back if time and financial constraints allow (I've got my eye on a new system, so money will be tight). -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences The IWCCCARS Project: Q & A Representative Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

I don't care why they released the sim before Christmas, but my biggest beef with this whole thing is the fact that there isn't much difference between NCR1 and NCR2. NCR2 should have been considered a patch for NCR1 as far as I'm concerned. If NCR3 doesn't have double-file restarts, pit assignments based on qualifying position, straight pit roads, open front stretch infields, etc. etc., I've purchased my last product from Papyrus. I won't accept any excuses from them because someone will write a sim that does all that. It's a simulation involving tracks built from blueprints. It is not a game. Papyrus does not have an exclusive license on stock car racing simulators. Someone needs to give them some competition. Someone needs to produce a simulator with everything Papyrus has and everything they chose to leave out. We all know that Bill France and NASCAR have got a tight leash on Papyrus and they have no plans to satisfy offline racers. Furthermore, they probably have no plans to satisfy the needs of those who wish not to compete in NRO. I can already imagine them breaking their promise about user-defined car assignments. The only thing in my mind that might remotely be satisfying about this whole deal is if NASCAR prices the service right out of existance. I know I want be using the service if it costs more than $60/month. That's what I pay now. If anyone out there has a couple hundred grand laying around, the best investment you could make might be in the company that has plans to defeat the NASCAR/Papyrus monoploy and provide a simulator that works great for both the offline series, the online series, and the "I'll run by myself against the computer because I live in an area so remote I can't even get an internet service provider so I can email my results in" driver. Think about it, Sierra is too damn cheap to provide ftp space for the multiplayer log files. Sounds like a *** with the LD companies to me. Soapbox off, David Martin

Although I am not sure there is a *** here or some strange aliance between NASCAR and Papyrus - I do agree that offline racing needs to be considered an important feature in the NASCAR Racing simulation from Papyrus/Sierra. Only a small percentage of sim racers can find the time and money to participate in on-line racing. Although I may choose to race on-line, the AI and race experience realism of the NASCAR simulations needs to be considered highly important. It is only a rewarding experience to use the race simulations when you are challenged - all too often the simulated cars don't provide a sufficient challenge because they do stupid things - like pitting out of sequence and failing to pass slow traffic (making them easy to run down and pass). NASCAR Racing 2 has made the AI cars a bit more aggresive and the lines at some tracks (like Bristol and C***te) are much improved. However, there is not significant change with regards to the AI cars in NASCAR Racing 2 - which is disappointing. Pit stops are still unrealistic (and at some tracks like Atlanta buggy) and AI cars often choose poor passing situations - like going high when the high groove is much too slow. However, there is a lot of great stuff in NASCAR Racing 2 also. The graphics are better, the tracks are more realistic, the spotter is great and the menu and car setup screens are better. With a patch or two to fix some of the bugs - it will be a great product. I hope Papyrus recruits some AI fanatics like myself for NASCAR Racing 3 beta testing. /THansen

Compared to Sierra's "Christmas rush" release of Football Pro '97, Nascar 2 seems almost bug free.

Tom, There were plenty of complaints from the beta testers about the AI. But improvements to the AI were never even on the table. We did manage to get you a few improvements, like the AI now suffer from cold tires and tire wear, which in my opinion, goes a long way toward making the game more interesting in single player. Dave (davids) Sparks Late Night League http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

From what I've heard of FBPRO '97 and my experience with N2, that is a major understatement. Kyle Langston _________________________________ http://www.traction.git.net/nrcentral/

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> >with regards to the AI cars in NASCAR Racing 2 - which is disappointing. > >Pit stops are still unrealistic (and at some tracks like Atlanta buggy) and > >AI cars often choose poor passing situations - like going high when the > >high groove is much too slow. However, there is a lot of great stuff in > >NASCAR Racing 2 also. The graphics are better, the tracks are more > >realistic, the spotter is great and the menu and car setup screens are > >better. With a patch or two to fix some of the bugs - it will be a great > >product. > >I hope Papyrus recruits some AI fanatics like myself for NASCAR Racing 3 > >beta testing. > Tom, > There were plenty of complaints from the beta testers about the AI. But > improvements to the AI were never even on the table. We did manage to get > you a few improvements, like the AI now suffer from cold tires and tire > wear, which in my opinion, goes a long way toward making the game more > interesting in single player.

Maybe so but the AI at Taladega seem to have a real attitude about being passed low in the corners. Much different from the N1 AI. Fortunately, the Pits AI modification makes them a little more tolarant and they will race you side by side even through the corners and trioval. -- Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA RaceTime utility program for Nascar1/Indycar2. http://www.metronet.com/~cstuart/