Beta open-wheel mod for NR2003 released
Tim Paullin linked the release of an open-wheel (IRL-style) beta mod for NASCAR Racing 2003. Early reports were mixed, citing lock-ups, shadow and frame-rate problems and an arcade feel from raised track grip, while others enjoyed it online. Members debated whether a stock-car engine can model open-wheel cars, compared it with ICR2 and F1 CART mods, and a Mac user asked for ZIP packaging.
Automated summary.
Tim Paullin wrote:
> http://xrl.home.comcast.net
>
> Tim
>
>
Thanks for the heads up, Tim. I've been waiting for this release for
quite some time now. :)
-Will
Is it any good?
"William Bradshaw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (12 lines)
> Tim Paullin wrote: > > http://xrl.home.comcast.net > > > > Tim > > > > > > Thanks for the heads up, Tim. I've been waiting for this release for > quite some time now. :) > > > -WillTim Paullin wrote:
> http://xrl.home.comcast.net
>
> Tim
>
>
I know that I'm in the minority here, but it would be nice if mods and
tracks were made available in ZIP format for those use us who are
running Macs. NASCAR 2003 is the really the only choice for a simulator
and it's a bit of a hassle to extract the files on a pc and transfer
back to the Mac.
Internet User <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:
simulator
> and it's a bit of a hassle to extract the files on a pc and transfer
> back to the Mac.
>
doesn't Stuffit support .rar and other pc formats?
dh
Quoted text (10 lines)
> Tim Paullin wrote: >> http://xrl.home.comcast.net >> >> Tim >> >> > > I know that I'm in the minority here, but it would be nice if mods and > tracks were made available in ZIP format for those use us who are > running Macs. NASCAR 2003 is the really the only choice for aDon't waste your time on this beta version. Every time I switched camera
angles the game locked up.
Chris
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (21 lines)
> Internet User <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:[email hidden]: > > > Tim Paullin wrote: > >> http://xrl.home.comcast.net > >> > >> Tim > >> > >> > > > > I know that I'm in the minority here, but it would be nice if mods and > > tracks were made available in ZIP format for those use us who are > > running Macs. NASCAR 2003 is the really the only choice for a > simulator > > and it's a bit of a hassle to extract the files on a pc and transfer > > back to the Mac. > > > > doesn't Stuffit support .rar and other pc formats? > > dh
"> Don't waste your time on this beta version. Every time I switched camera
> angles the game locked up.
>It's definitely in the Beta stage...
I ran some on-line laps at the Brickyard and it has a definite "arcade" feel
to it...
Would love to see it get worked up to speed, though.
On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:58:28 -0600, "sixty8kr"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>Don't waste your time on this beta version. Every time I switched camera
>angles the game locked up.
No problems here.
Also, for Dave's sake, my online car:
http://firebrand11.stargate.net/N2003/screens/gould1.jpg
Dave Henrie wrote:
>
>
> doesn't Stuffit support .rar and other pc formats?
>
> dh
It does, but the OW mod (and others) are packaging their tracks as
EXE's. Hoping that they were self extracting zip's, I renamed the files
to ZIP but with no success.
Timmy Ferrell <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:UL0Ic.198496$[email hidden]...
>
> "> Don't waste your time on this beta version. Every time I switchedcamera
> > angles the game locked up.
> >
> It's definitely in the Beta stage...
> I ran some on-line laps at the Brickyard and it has a definite "arcade"feel
> to it...
> Would love to see it get worked up to speed, though.
Curious. Why do you feel it has an arcade feel ?
>
>
On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:23:27 -0500, "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote:
Well, grip is typically cranked up to about double of normal.
It's basically using the TA physics, which means they don't
go >quite< as fast as IRL or Champ cars do...
John DiFool
Quoted text (16 lines)
> >Timmy Ferrell <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:UL0Ic.198496$[email hidden]... >> >> "> Don't waste your time on this beta version. Every time I switched >camera >> > angles the game locked up. >> > >> It's definitely in the Beta stage... >> I ran some on-line laps at the Brickyard and it has a definite "arcade" >feel >> to it... >> Would love to see it get worked up to speed, though. > > Curious. Why do you feel it has an arcade feel ? >[email hidden] (Jason Moyer) wrote in news:40f099b8.198971406
@news.telerama.com:
> No problems here.
>
> Also, for Dave's sake, my online car:
>
> http://firebrand11.stargate.net/N2003/screens/gould1.jpg
>
ahhhh the 'good' ol days...thanks J
dave henrie
John DiFool <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Twice normal of what ?
Quoted text (26 lines)
> On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:23:27 -0500, "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >Timmy Ferrell <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:UL0Ic.198496$[email hidden]... > >> > >> "> Don't waste your time on this beta version. Every time I switched > >camera > >> > angles the game locked up. > >> > > >> It's definitely in the Beta stage... > >> I ran some on-line laps at the Brickyard and it has a definite "arcade" > >feel > >> to it... > >> Would love to see it get worked up to speed, though. > > > > Curious. Why do you feel it has an arcade feel ? > > > > Well, grip is typically cranked up to about double of normal. > > It's basically using the TA physics, which means they don't > go >quite< as fast as IRL or Champ cars do... > > John DiFool >On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:34:27 -0500, "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote:
Grip in the track.ini. Usually around 1.0-1.10 for TA,
for the new oval settings upwards of 2.0...
JD
Quoted text (12 lines)
>> >> Well, grip is typically cranked up to about double of normal. >> >> It's basically using the TA physics, which means they don't >> go >quite< as fast as IRL or Champ cars do... >> >> John DiFool >> > > > Twice normal of what ? >
John DiFool <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
K, thanks. Not sure why thats labeled as arcade, but anyway.
>
Quoted text (20 lines)
> On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:34:27 -0500, "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >> > >> Well, grip is typically cranked up to about double of normal. > >> > >> It's basically using the TA physics, which means they don't > >> go >quite< as fast as IRL or Champ cars do... > >> > >> John DiFool > >> > > > > > > Twice normal of what ? > > > > Grip in the track.ini. Usually around 1.0-1.10 for TA, > for the new oval settings upwards of 2.0... > > JDJust gave the mod a quick try. Shadows are very strange and the frame
rate (with everything set as I usually have it for standard NR3) is
worse than what I usually get.
Russell
Russell <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Just gave the mod a quick try. Shadows are very strange and the frame
> rate (with everything set as I usually have it for standard NR3) is
> worse than what I usually get.
>
> Russell
Yeah, my righthand mirror wouldn't work for some reason, and the cars
tires don't connect with the ground visually. But it is a beta still, and
definately has potential imo.
You realize that a normal IRL car DOES have more grip than a TA car or
normal CUP car?
"John DiFool" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (26 lines)
> On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:23:27 -0500, "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >Timmy Ferrell <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:UL0Ic.198496$[email hidden]... > >> > >> "> Don't waste your time on this beta version. Every time I switched > >camera > >> > angles the game locked up. > >> > > >> It's definitely in the Beta stage... > >> I ran some on-line laps at the Brickyard and it has a definite "arcade" > >feel > >> to it... > >> Would love to see it get worked up to speed, though. > > > > Curious. Why do you feel it has an arcade feel ? > > > > Well, grip is typically cranked up to about double of normal. > > It's basically using the TA physics, which means they don't > go >quite< as fast as IRL or Champ cars do... > > John DiFool >
Bill Bollinger <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> You realize that a normal IRL car DOES have more grip than a TA car or
> normal CUP car?
Yeah, that was my thoughts too.
"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:gUdIc.127$[email hidden]...
Aero grip, yes, they do. Track INI grip is mechanical grip. So IRL/CART has
sticker tires then?
Quoted text (10 lines)
> > Bill Bollinger <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > You realize that a normal IRL car DOES have more grip than a TA car or > > normal CUP car? > > > Yeah, that was my thoughts too. > >"SimRacer" <nospam@[email hidden]> wrote in
news:oNeIc.148697$[email hidden]:
> Aero grip, yes, they do. Track INI grip is mechanical grip. So
> IRL/CART has sticker tires then?
>
Depends when...near the end of the Goodyear/Firestone tire wars, the
slicks were damn near duct taped to the track. Lots of marbles and shorter
lifespan too. But now with Bridgestone/Firestone in charge of all US
openwheel tires...they have built a harder, and thus less sticky, tire.
But realize, the much lighter weight of the Openwheel cars compared to the
TA or Cup cars, that COMBINED with HUGE downforce numbers(espescially with
irl) and you can see that they 'should' feel pretty sticky.
Just how JB went about it...doesn't really matter...but I should think I
could damn near drive all the irl tracks flat out in a Crapwagon vs a Cup
car having to slow down at some point for virtually all the tracks.
SimRacer <nospam@[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:oNeIc.148697$[email hidden]...
has
> sticker tires then?
Lol, um, no, smartass, as you know. Of course, why the above statements
upset you so much is another question, eh ? And since they don't have
access to the .exe file, how is are they going to simulate more grip ?
>
>
Quoted text (14 lines)
> "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:gUdIc.127$[email hidden]... > > > > Bill Bollinger <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > You realize that a normal IRL car DOES have more grip than a TA car or > > > normal CUP car? > > > > > > Yeah, that was my thoughts too. > > > > > > Aero grip, yes, they do. Track INI grip is mechanical grip. So IRL/CARTI like this mod a lot. Ran some pick up races online and had a blast. Feels
realistic enough to me.
David G Fisher
"Tim Paullin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:ccpamh$7f3$[email hidden]...
> http://xrl.home.comcast.net
>
> Tim
>
>
Nice to see an attempt at an open wheel mod. I hope to see some improvements
such as tire model (looks a bit rough and square even at high res) Physics
and damage will need some work. Usually if one were to touch open wheels
there would be chaos. Funny how they just bounce away and do not lock
together or ride over top one another. Then there's the sound. Can't say it
is anything close to IRL, CART, or F1. Sadly, I do not expect much change in
Physics if forced to use T/A physics. It was pretty funny to go flat out at
Michigan. I applaud the effort but am a bit skeptical of a final product.
Maybe it would be easier to get Sierras awesome Multiplayer capabilities to
dance with EA's F1C or Thunder? Better yet, dress up Sierra CART/ICR2
graphics!
"William Bradshaw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (12 lines)
> Tim Paullin wrote: > > http://xrl.home.comcast.net > > > > Tim > > > > > > Thanks for the heads up, Tim. I've been waiting for this release for > quite some time now. :) > > > -WillOn Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:47:08 -0500, Dave Henrie
<[email hidden]> wrote:
If you took the trans am physics and halved the 3000lbs weight I think
you'd see speeds on ovals similar to crapwagons (the PTA physics
already have 650 horsepower). You'd probably need to tweak the
drag/downforce a bit but IMHO it would be pretty close as is.
Quoted text (10 lines)
> Depends when...near the end of the Goodyear/Firestone tire wars, the >slicks were damn near duct taped to the track. Lots of marbles and shorter >lifespan too. But now with Bridgestone/Firestone in charge of all US >openwheel tires...they have built a harder, and thus less sticky, tire. > But realize, the much lighter weight of the Openwheel cars compared to the >TA or Cup cars, that COMBINED with HUGE downforce numbers(espescially with >irl) and you can see that they 'should' feel pretty sticky. > Just how JB went about it...doesn't really matter...but I should think I >could damn near drive all the irl tracks flat out in a Crapwagon vs a Cup >car having to slow down at some point for virtually all the tracks."Tiny Lund" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:
With the horsepower and downforce plus slicks that the irl uses, Why
wouldn't they go flat out around Michigan. Heck the CART cars went flat
around there back in the 80's and 90's when they had a ton more
horsepower.
I had some experience with the CART mod for N3 and that had the same
problem with the wheels not interlocking. You are stuck with a block
shape from the original sim, so to the computer's eye, there is no gap
between the front and rear wheels to slide your wheels into.
dave henrie
Quoted text (13 lines)
> Nice to see an attempt at an open wheel mod. I hope to see some > improvements such as tire model (looks a bit rough and square even at > high res) Physics and damage will need some work. Usually if one were > to touch open wheels there would be chaos. Funny how they just bounce > away and do not lock together or ride over top one another. Then > there's the sound. Can't say it is anything close to IRL, CART, or F1. > Sadly, I do not expect much change in Physics if forced to use T/A > physics. It was pretty funny to go flat out at Michigan. I applaud the > effort but am a bit skeptical of a final product. Maybe it would be > easier to get Sierras awesome Multiplayer capabilities to dance with > EA's F1C or Thunder? Better yet, dress up Sierra CART/ICR2 graphics! > >IRL goes flat out at Michigan, California, Indy just to name a few.
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (28 lines)
> "Tiny Lund" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:[email hidden]: > > > Nice to see an attempt at an open wheel mod. I hope to see some > > improvements such as tire model (looks a bit rough and square even at > > high res) Physics and damage will need some work. Usually if one were > > to touch open wheels there would be chaos. Funny how they just bounce > > away and do not lock together or ride over top one another. Then > > there's the sound. Can't say it is anything close to IRL, CART, or F1. > > Sadly, I do not expect much change in Physics if forced to use T/A > > physics. It was pretty funny to go flat out at Michigan. I applaud the > > effort but am a bit skeptical of a final product. Maybe it would be > > easier to get Sierras awesome Multiplayer capabilities to dance with > > EA's F1C or Thunder? Better yet, dress up Sierra CART/ICR2 graphics! > > > > > With the horsepower and downforce plus slicks that the irl uses, Why > wouldn't they go flat out around Michigan. Heck the CART cars went flat > around there back in the 80's and 90's when they had a ton more > horsepower. > > I had some experience with the CART mod for N3 and that had the same > problem with the wheels not interlocking. You are stuck with a block > shape from the original sim, so to the computer's eye, there is no gap > between the front and rear wheels to slide your wheels into. > > dave henrie >I remember going around Michigan full tilt in ICR2 no problem. It was a
blast :)
-Larry
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (28 lines)
> "Tiny Lund" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:[email hidden]: > > > Nice to see an attempt at an open wheel mod. I hope to see some > > improvements such as tire model (looks a bit rough and square even at > > high res) Physics and damage will need some work. Usually if one were > > to touch open wheels there would be chaos. Funny how they just bounce > > away and do not lock together or ride over top one another. Then > > there's the sound. Can't say it is anything close to IRL, CART, or F1. > > Sadly, I do not expect much change in Physics if forced to use T/A > > physics. It was pretty funny to go flat out at Michigan. I applaud the > > effort but am a bit skeptical of a final product. Maybe it would be > > easier to get Sierras awesome Multiplayer capabilities to dance with > > EA's F1C or Thunder? Better yet, dress up Sierra CART/ICR2 graphics! > > > > > With the horsepower and downforce plus slicks that the irl uses, Why > wouldn't they go flat out around Michigan. Heck the CART cars went flat > around there back in the 80's and 90's when they had a ton more > horsepower. > > I had some experience with the CART mod for N3 and that had the same > problem with the wheels not interlocking. You are stuck with a block > shape from the original sim, so to the computer's eye, there is no gap > between the front and rear wheels to slide your wheels into. > > dave henrie >I meant funny going flat out as opposed to Nascar. One thing I remember from
ICR2 was that when you lost it at Michigan it would snap out and slam you
into the wall. I didn't get that feeling with OWR. It was more of a gradual
slide like Nascar.
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (28 lines)
> "Tiny Lund" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:[email hidden]: > > > Nice to see an attempt at an open wheel mod. I hope to see some > > improvements such as tire model (looks a bit rough and square even at > > high res) Physics and damage will need some work. Usually if one were > > to touch open wheels there would be chaos. Funny how they just bounce > > away and do not lock together or ride over top one another. Then > > there's the sound. Can't say it is anything close to IRL, CART, or F1. > > Sadly, I do not expect much change in Physics if forced to use T/A > > physics. It was pretty funny to go flat out at Michigan. I applaud the > > effort but am a bit skeptical of a final product. Maybe it would be > > easier to get Sierras awesome Multiplayer capabilities to dance with > > EA's F1C or Thunder? Better yet, dress up Sierra CART/ICR2 graphics! > > > > > With the horsepower and downforce plus slicks that the irl uses, Why > wouldn't they go flat out around Michigan. Heck the CART cars went flat > around there back in the 80's and 90's when they had a ton more > horsepower. > > I had some experience with the CART mod for N3 and that had the same > problem with the wheels not interlocking. You are stuck with a block > shape from the original sim, so to the computer's eye, there is no gap > between the front and rear wheels to slide your wheels into. > > dave henrie >"Tiny Lund" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:
> I meant funny going flat out as opposed to Nascar. One thing I
> remember from ICR2 was that when you lost it at Michigan it would snap
> out and slam you into the wall. I didn't get that feeling with OWR. It
> was more of a gradual slide like Nascar.
> Thats to be expected...since you don't have the ground effects in Nascar
that were present in ICR2. That snap was a bugger wasn't it?
Even with the patch and TA physics, we are still dealing with a StockCar
simulation. And while I truly enjoy driving around many of the tracks with
the TPTCC league cars, the Open Wheel Guys won't be able to cover up all
the stockcar roots of the sim. Enjoy it for what it is, ...don't be
looking for true open wheel racing. That may come next year if the rumours
are true of some Ex Papy guys working on a Champ Car sim are true.
dave henrie
I'll look forward to anything Papy or ex-Papy with baited breath!
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Nascar
> that were present in ICR2. That snap was a bugger wasn't it?
> Even with the patch and TA physics, we are still dealing with a StockCar
> simulation. And while I truly enjoy driving around many of the trackswith
> the TPTCC league cars, the Open Wheel Guys won't be able to cover up all
> the stockcar roots of the sim. Enjoy it for what it is, ...don't be
> looking for true open wheel racing. That may come next year if therumours
> are true of some Ex Papy guys working on a Champ Car sim are true.
>
> dave henrie
Quoted text (9 lines)
> "Tiny Lund" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:[email hidden]: > > > I meant funny going flat out as opposed to Nascar. One thing I > > remember from ICR2 was that when you lost it at Michigan it would snap > > out and slam you into the wall. I didn't get that feeling with OWR. It > > was more of a gradual slide like Nascar. > > > Thats to be expected...since you don't have the ground effects inI get that same feeling with all the NR2003 mods. F1C on the other hand is
able to cover up much of it's F1 lineage.
Mitch
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Nascar
> that were present in ICR2. That snap was a bugger wasn't it?
> Even with the patch and TA physics, we are still dealing with a StockCar
> simulation. And while I truly enjoy driving around many of the trackswith
> the TPTCC league cars, the Open Wheel Guys won't be able to cover up all
> the stockcar roots of the sim. Enjoy it for what it is, ...don't be
> looking for true open wheel racing. That may come next year if therumours
> are true of some Ex Papy guys working on a Champ Car sim are true.
>
> dave henrie
Quoted text (9 lines)
> "Tiny Lund" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:[email hidden]: > > > I meant funny going flat out as opposed to Nascar. One thing I > > remember from ICR2 was that when you lost it at Michigan it would snap > > out and slam you into the wall. I didn't get that feeling with OWR. It > > was more of a gradual slide like Nascar. > > > Thats to be expected...since you don't have the ground effects in
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Nascar
> that were present in ICR2. That snap was a bugger wasn't it?
> Even with the patch and TA physics, we are still dealing with a StockCar
> simulation. And while I truly enjoy driving around many of the trackswith
> the TPTCC league cars, the Open Wheel Guys won't be able to cover up all
> the stockcar roots of the sim. Enjoy it for what it is, ...don't be
> looking for true open wheel racing. That may come next year if therumours
> are true of some Ex Papy guys working on a Champ Car sim are true.
>
> dave henrie
Maybe I'm wrong but IMHO the only viable titles currently available for Open
Wheel mods would be F12k2 or F1C, since the Papy Nascar titles wouldnt have
the necessary relevent physics.
Quoted text (9 lines)
> "Tiny Lund" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:[email hidden]: > > > I meant funny going flat out as opposed to Nascar. One thing I > > remember from ICR2 was that when you lost it at Michigan it would snap > > out and slam you into the wall. I didn't get that feeling with OWR. It > > was more of a gradual slide like Nascar. > > > Thats to be expected...since you don't have the ground effects inOn Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:24:08 -0400, Tiny Lund wrote:
> I meant funny going flat out as opposed to Nascar. One thing I remember from
> ICR2 was that when you lost it at Michigan it would snap out and slam you
> into the wall. I didn't get that feeling with OWR. It was more of a gradual
> slide like Nascar.
>
>
Anyone remember the race at the Lausitzring last year? The Champcars
went flat out around that one, due to the fact that they were forced
to use identical aero setups for both Brands Hatch Indy Circuit and
the oval at the Lausitzring. The first race back in the US had two
nasty accidents because they returned to the old "on the edge" wing
config I guess, making the cars much more twitchy near the limit.
Cheers,
uwe
--
mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox)
Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/
Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E)
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61
Internet User wrote:
There are MAC people who work with the MOD groups and put out MAC
versions, I expect this will happen here too once it's in a more
finished state
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
"goyl at nettx dot no"
http://www.theuspits.com
"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--
Quoted text (12 lines)
> > Dave Henrie wrote: > > > > > > > doesn't Stuffit support .rar and other pc formats? > > > > dh > > It does, but the OW mod (and others) are packaging their tracks as > EXE's. Hoping that they were self extracting zip's, I renamed the files > to ZIP but with no success."Biz"
The F1 2k2 CART mod is really a quick port job of one created for F1
2k1. There are plenty of 2002 and 2003 paint updates...but it is still
limited by it's 2k1 heritage.
There are a couple of F1c ports of that mod, none very sucessful to
date, but hopefully in the near future a fully sorted Champcar mod will be
released for F1c. There are about a dozen CART/OWRS tracks available so
that might be closest we get til this 'phantom' group 'SE Games' surfaces
with their Champcar sim.
dave henrie
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > Maybe I'm wrong but IMHO the only viable titles currently available > for Open Wheel mods would be F12k2 or F1C, since the Papy Nascar > titles wouldnt have the necessary relevent physics. > > >Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
Interesting -- if it's a port of the CHAMPWeb CART mod for F1 2001,
then I think I did the physics for that one (or the 2K1 CHAMPWeb mod
was an evolution of the CART physics I did for F12K . . . can't recall
which it was).
-- JB
