No save race-MORE!

A reply I posted to an AOL user.... sims and there is no such thing as "saving" your race in the real world of auto racing.<<<< What kind of nonsense is that??? There is no such thing as Dale Earnhardts door bell ringing while he is going down the backstretch at Dega either nut! The point of the save race option is NOT to "cheat" your way out of a bad race, but to be able to run an ENTIRE race over a period of a day or two...reread my earlier posts more carefully!!! You talk about realism and then expect us to be satisfied with a 30% (or whatever) race???? They DON'T run 50 lap races at Michigan!! And even if you DO run say a 50% race (for example..94 laps at Dega)..what if you have completed 75 of those laps and, for some reason and/or emergency have to stop the race? The ENTIRE race has been WASTED!!! You MUST start all over again! This feature is not some "gee, in Nascar3 I hope they put some cheerleaders in the pit stalls"...type, silly,petty-ass request, it is a basic, fundamental (and therefore critical) aspect of the game. Not having it is a MONUMENTAL BLUNDER!! I hope those reading this are as outraged as I am and bombard Papyrus with requests to patch it....this game is just short sprint racing with lots of eye candy until then! Chuck

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> Well, you can probably blame the beta testers in part for not > fighting harder for it. For myself, I rarely used the Save > Race feature in NASCAR 1 because it was so lame. I hope I'm > not giving away any great secrets, but we each gave Papyrus > a shopping list of things we wanted fixed or added, and I > think for most of us, the Save feature was pretty low on the > list. In fact, it wasn't even on mine. :(

The one thing I miss regarding the save game feature, that made me feel that it was "really" a sim of Nascar, was to emulate a race weekend by practicing one day, qualifying the next, warming up after that, and then racing (without saving after this point) perhaps a 50% race. They call it a "Race Weekend" in Nascar 2, but unless you want your computer on for four days straight, you have to do all four sessions in one sitting. Anyone else feel the same about this aspect of the save game feature? TC

> > A reply I posted to an AOL user.... > there is no such thing as "saving" your race in the real world of > auto racing. > What kind of nonsense is that??? There is no such thing as Dale Earnhardts door bell ringing while he is going down the backstretch at Dega either > > nut! what if you have completed 75 of those laps If the Beta testers are to blame for this - then so be it - They made a disatrous error for not considering THIS item as fundimental to the integity of the the main premis of this product. Chuck is correct!...whilst this IS a Simulation,few of us get paid to run hard laps round a race track..we're mostly weekend (late evening warriors), and the save race option provided away for US to simulate REAL racing by allowing US to run a full length race, albeit in stages. (that is the real point of this argument - without the save option we are restricted to much shorter race lengths,due to time contraints...and what's REAL about THAT! This is such a CRITICAL FUNCTION of any game these days, I find it hard to believe I am even having this converstion...especially when it's missing from THE game of the year. I,and many more would have assumed such a function to be a foregone conclusion, and not included in the "do we want this or not question", during developement. -- rgs, John < http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/2444 >

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> A reply I posted to an AOL user.... > >>> Papyrus is dedicated to absolute realism as much as possible in their > sims and there is no such thing as "saving" your race in the real world of > auto racing.<<<< > What kind of nonsense is that??? There is no such thing as Dale Earnhardts > door bell ringing while he is going down the backstretch at Dega either > nut! > The point of the save race option is NOT to "cheat" your way out of a bad > race, but to be able to run an ENTIRE race over a period of a day or > two...reread my earlier posts more carefully!!! You talk about realism and > then expect us to be satisfied with a 30% (or whatever) race???? They > DON'T > run 50 lap races at Michigan!! And even if you DO run say a 50% race (for > example..94 laps at Dega)..what if you have completed 75 of those laps > and, > for some reason and/or emergency have to stop the race? The ENTIRE race > has been WASTED!!! You MUST start all over again! This feature is not some > "gee, in Nascar3 I hope they put some cheerleaders in the pit > stalls"...type, silly,petty-ass request, it is a basic, fundamental (and > therefore > critical) aspect of the game. Not having it is a MONUMENTAL BLUNDER!! I > hope those reading this are as outraged as I am and bombard Papyrus with > requests to patch it....this game is just short sprint racing with lots of > eye candy > until then! Chuck

Well, you can probably blame the beta testers in part for not fighting harder for it. For myself, I rarely used the Save Race feature in NASCAR 1 because it was so lame. I hope I'm not giving away any great secrets, but we each gave Papyrus a shopping list of things we wanted fixed or added, and I think for most of us, the Save feature was pretty low on the list. In fact, it wasn't even on mine. :( Dave (davids) Sparks Late Night League http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

I concur! This is one that needs fixin...come on lets be realistic, uncontrolled interuptions after many many laps just to have to start over. No thanks. Please fix.

Nah, we are to busy balming you guys for the screwed up installation routine!! :-) Yes, it was hosed, but it did keep me from having to start almost every race I started over again due to some imagined family crisis or someone wanting to talk to me on the phone. So, you guys are a bunch of software Nelsons? If you don't like it, no one will? Do you know how the beta testers were picked? The guys with the most hours on Hawaii, maybe? Were there any beta testers with lives outside their computer rooms? Like, do you have a wife, kids? Familys are a fact of life for a lot of us here, and some of us even have to spend time with them after a day at work and just don't have the 3-4 hours to zone out in front of the screen.

Game of The Year? Possibly. If.... It actually did everything it said it would do. It would do things that it should do. And it was bug-free. But it's not there yet. IF it had all the above then I would easily have it considered for game of the year. But really there's to much RUSH stated on this product to give it that reward. We don't want to reward this type of effort overall with such a high aclaim. I'm not so sure who made who push the game out the door. But IMO it left about a month to soon. Q.B.M.

>run 50 lap races at Michigan!! And even if you DO run say a 50% race (for >example..94 laps at Dega)..what if you have completed 75 of those laps >and, >for some reason and/or emergency have to stop the race? The ENTIRE race >has been WASTED!!! You MUST start all over again! This feature is not some ummm, can't you pause it? turn off the monitor and get back to it later... all is not lost, unless you want it to be...

>run 50 lap races at Michigan!! And even if you DO run say a 50% race (for >example..94 laps at Dega)..what if you have completed 75 of those laps >and, >for some reason and/or emergency have to stop the race? The ENTIRE race >has been WASTED!!! You MUST start all over again! This feature is not some Have you never heard of the pause key? For minor emergencies like the doorbell, phone, or mother nature, that's all you need. If the emergency is real, like your wife is going into labour or your kid got hit by a car, then I don't think losing your completed 75 laps is of much consequence. And I find it hard to beleive that you absolutely can't find 3-4 hours of time in an entire week to put aside to a race. YES! Include cheerleaders in the pits! Then I won't mind if my pit crew take too long to change my tires. I'm not outraged, and I can't see why people are. Monumental blunder, I think not. *********************************************** * * * Karl aka The Dobeman * * Clan member of Zealot Wroth * * * *********************************************** * * * 1996 Ninja 500 1995 VW Golf * * 1995 Wife & 1990 Doberman * * * ***********************************************

Dave - and other beta testers. I agree that the save option was not ideal - not realistic etc. I also realize that some sim racers are more dedicated than others - and the beta testers probably are the more dedicated. No problem - thats up to you. However, Papyrus needs to realize that 95% of its customers for racing sims are regular racing fans with computers. Most have wifes, kids, 50hr a week plus jobs etc. I love the realism - but I cannot run a four hour race at 10pm in the evening (when everyone is finally in bed and I have time to myself) and still get up for work. I typically run a race in two legs - saving during a mid race caution or pit stop. The only thing that was terrible about the old save option was that lap cars and tail end of the lead lap cars were either moved back or forward on the track. This - actually - would be an easy fix - simply remembering the running order on the track - as well as track position. The yellow flag restart was ok - I think. I - and 95% of your customers strongly request that a save option be added to the game. It doesn't need to be pretty or realistic - it just needs to save and resume a race. Thanks, /THansen

Save feature was pretty low on the It's a real pain to have to race the whole 'race weekend' in one sitting. Did you guys all have several hours to kill at a sitting??? Seems like that should be a BIG thing to include. Richard

REPLY: Ok smarty pants. You can't save or pause in multiplayer mode. Now what's your solution? :) And about the you can't belive stuff. Well it's not about what you belive, now is it? Q.B.M.

REPLY: Did anybody think the save feature isn't there because of not sim's sake but for programmings sake. They didn't want to go to the hassle. In a perfect scenario you would have a auto save everytime you (or the host) crosses the finish line for each lap. That sounds to me a real no-brainer way of doing things. Q.B.M.

In article , John says... I doubt the beta testers made this decision. As a beta tester of most of their previous products, they seem to have a hair up their ***about not giving the customer what he wants. The save game feature has been asked for time and time again. the game designers don't feel it is right. I guess they can sit there all day/night and play the game through unlike many of us. They need to realize that even though it is a sim, it is ENTERTAINMENT for us. They are really arrogant about this issue. I have really given up on them producing a quality product. EVERYTHING theyt have put out has had major bugs that have ruined the experience far more than having a SAVE GAME feature. Witness the AI of the computer cars at Australia and Phoenix in ICR2. Unplayable, unrealistic and not a simulation. I'm a firm believer in Geoff Crammond at this point. He may be late but I haven't found things in GP2 that are show stoppers. Jeff Haas

> ummm, can't you pause it? turn off the monitor and get back to it > later... all is not lost, unless you want it to be... Only if you don't want to do anything else on the PC in the meantime. Lack of save game is a FUNDAMENTAL FLAW, and unless I hear of a fix I won't buy N2. Mike Excell

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>Well, you can probably blame the beta testers in part for not >fighting harder for it. For myself, I rarely used the Save >Race feature in NASCAR 1 because it was so lame. I hope I'm >not giving away any great secrets, but we each gave Papyrus >a shopping list of things we wanted fixed or added, and I >think for most of us, the Save feature was pretty low on the >list. In fact, it wasn't even on mine. :(

Great. This is part of the problem with having the game beta tested by only the hard-core experts. This feature might not be important to your average Hawaii hotshot, but to the average joe that can just sit down for 1/2 to 1 hour at a time to race, it's vital. Shame on Papy for being so short-sighted. It really annoys me to see a couple of dumb design flaws and obvious bugs (the save setup not working with min install, for one) tarnish an otherwise spectacular game :( David *** You're only young once, but you can stay immature forever ***

> In article , John says... > >If the Beta testers are to blame for this - then so be it - They made a > >disatrous error for not considering THIS item as fundimental to the > >integity of the the main premis of this product. > Jeff Haas The save race option was discarded primarily because it creates several programming problems. The Nascar 1 save feature never worked very well, and was quite limited. It really has nothing to do with realism, it's more a matter of time and tools. Regarding GP2, I think I'd be more upset with the "all cars perform the same," framerates so butt-slow that you can't run the game on a cray, canned 180 degree spins, automatic brakes applied when you enter the pits, cartoonish dash board with game setting cluttered all over it, etc., than I would a save race feature. Remember folks, it was only a few years ago that all we sim racers had to look forward to was Test Drive, or Grand Prix II by Accolade, or Bill Elliott's NASCAR challenge, or Days of Thunder. Those games only allowed you to race against six or eight cars that displayed no real-world characteristics whatsoever. So shuddup and drive!

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>> ummm, can't you pause it? turn off the monitor and get back to it >> later... all is not lost, unless you want it to be... >Only if you don't want to do anything else on the PC in the meantime. >Lack of save game is a FUNDAMENTAL FLAW, and unless I hear of a fix >I won't buy N2. >Mike Excell

Hmmm....aren't you guys all running NR2 under Win95? From what I see here I figure you all are. Why not pause the race and switch out to your desktop and do what ever you want? As long as you leave the system on all should be well when you come back and have time to finish. Hope this helps you, Ralph<Ralphw on Hawaii>Williams /----------------------------------------------------------------------\ /Ralph Williams My real .sig file is in the shop getting repaired.\ /----------------------------------------------------------------------\

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> > ummm, can't you pause it? turn off the monitor and get back to it > > later... all is not lost, unless you want it to be... > Only if you don't want to do anything else on the PC in the meantime. > Lack of save game is a FUNDAMENTAL FLAW, and unless I hear of a fix > I won't buy N2. > Mike Excell

Give people all the gold then they turn around and want platinum....... -- The wise man can pick up a grain of sand and envision a whole universe, but the stupid man will just lay down on some seaweed and roll around until he's completely draped in it. Then he'll stand up and go, "Hey, I'm Vine Man." Jack Handey. GO #2!

> >run 50 lap races at Michigan!! And even if you DO run say a 50% race (for > >example..94 laps at Dega)..what if you have completed 75 of those laps > >and, > >for some reason and/or emergency have to stop the race? The ENTIRE race > >has been WASTED!!! You MUST start all over again! This feature is not some > ummm, can't you pause it? turn off the monitor and get back to it > later... all is not lost, unless you want it to be... PAUSE it!! Why leave that in if the SAVE is removed? How is that more realistic than a save option?

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>Save feature was pretty low on the >>> list. In fact, it wasn't even on mine. :( >It's a real pain to have to race the whole 'race weekend' in one >sitting. Did you guys all have several hours to kill at a sitting??? >Seems like that should be a BIG thing to include. >Richard

I agree, it's *ridiculous* not to have a 'Save Game' feature, in ANY game! After all, this is something we do in our spare time, when we are not working, right? I've got a few other things to do than sit down for four or five hours racing, but I enjoy a few laps now and then. If I do decide to race for a couple of hours, and some idiot bangs me up in the pits, I lose the whole weekend? C'mon, gimme a break! I'm not a hard core Nascar guy, but I HAVE ordered a T2 because I enjoy the racing! The fact that IE 3.01 is *killed*, everytime I run the game in Win95 isn't exactly a pleasureable experience either. Again, I have better things to do than reinstall IE every time I want to run Nascar2 from Win95. I can imagine all the Dads, Moms, and Kids who run into this one on Christmas day...it won't be pretty! :-( Dan

>> ummm, can't you pause it? turn off the monitor and get back to it >> later... all is not lost, unless you want it to be... >PAUSE it!! Why leave that in if the SAVE is removed? How is that more >realistic than a save option? lessee here... it doesn't start you out with a yellow flag, all cars lined up in order, with cold temps (i.e., not superhot tires if you should happen to have burnt them up and the car isn't handling worth a flip) pause doesn't do any of those... granted, if they made a save race option that was essentially the SAME as pause, then there's nothing wrong with it. in essence, I feel that the save game ommission took another chunk of "cheating" out of the game.

>REPLY: >Ok smarty pants. You can't save or pause in multiplayer mode. Now >what's your solution? >:) Oh, um, m, ah, oh, well, oh, um, what was the question? ;) But it IS what Papyrus beleives, isn't it? :) <-Big evil grin *********************************************** * * * Karl aka The Dobeman * * Clan member of Zealot Wroth * * * *********************************************** * * * 1996 Ninja 500 1995 VW Golf * * 1995 Wife & 1990 Doberman * * * ***********************************************

Ah, but my point is, is that the purist here say remove everything that isn't 'real'. Pausing is real? So what happens is I am racing, the doorbell rings, and it is a friend who plans to stay an hour or so? Leave the computer 'paused' while they visit? And if the kids wanna play on the 'puter I just have to suck it up and quit, or be an A.H. and tell them to go play in the yard or something? Not here in this house. I have been playing N2 for a week now ( almost ) and haven't seen one thing that would convince me to delete N1 off of my system. Till they get the bugs out, and add back some real world options, the game will just be something I show off the computer graphics on. Or at least I would if the Rendition Version was close to how the ICRII Rendition version is. My poor old P5 -120 just can't run the sucker at what 'I' call an acceptable framerate. And from what I have been reading, some of those PP200's are catching hell too, so I don't feel that bad. And from the other end of reality, those P75 guys who run with everything on at an amazing framerate....... well, I just find that amazing, or as our pal Mike T. would say, ' that's ludicrous '. Cheating....Cheating..... Come on, lets get off the cheating thing. I don't want to cheat on you, I just want to save my current race AS IS. And this is the same for most of us out here ' whining ' about the lack of said feature. Yes, just like a pause, but one I can start again in an hour, a day, or a week. That's all I want.... today. :-)

> The fact that IE 3.01 is *killed*, everytime I run the game in Win95 > isn't exactly a pleasureable experience either. Again, I have better > things to do than reinstall IE every time I want to run Nascar2 from > Win95. I can imagine all the Dads, Moms, and Kids who run into this > one on Christmas day...it won't be pretty! :-( Are you still having problems wiht MSIE 3.01 and Nascar? Since the first episode, I have ran N2 from Win95 with no ill effects to IE 3.01. But then again, I haven't stuck the CD back in either... And my auto play feature is turned off on my CD's. Anyway, I thought that was a Sierra install and trash routhine that was the problem?

It is simply a MONUMENTAL BLUNDER!!! The fact is that FEW people have 3-4 hours to sit and race straight thru. And it is also very tiring and draining to do so anyway...I don't know about you guys but I start to get cross-eyed after about an hour or so....it was so nice to save the race and come back rested and focused. Now I have to play the game at the GAMES convenience, in other words, I have to PLAN in advance WHEN I can sit down for a few hours to play..(can you imagine?..."sorry honey, we can't go to that party because today is Nascar 2 day!" We OWN the game, the GAME shouldn't OWN us) as opposed to starting and running say 20 laps before I go to work, saving, and coming back later to run some more laps, saving, coming back, etc. until the race was finished. The PRIMARY reason Adam gave me was "time constraints". Clearly, I believe that Sierra pressured them to have it released BEFORE Christmas.(Although I'm sure Adam would deny this) They simply cut a corner to do so. The problem is of course, it was an ERMORMOUSLY critical feature...one we didn't ASK for in the pre-release wish lists because we EXPECTED it! After all, Nascar1 and Indycar2 BOTH had them (Papyrus' previous releases) This was a 5 star game that I would now give a 4 star rating (on the lack of this option ALONE!) because of the absurdity of this decision. If Papyrus does not patch this in the coming months, I believe they will have slightly tarnished their reputation with some of their best customers. Chuck Brennan

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> Hmmm....aren't you guys all running NR2 under Win95? From what I see > here I figure you all are. > Why not pause the race and switch out to your desktop and do what > ever you want? > As long as you leave the system on all should be well when you come > back and have time to finish. > Hope this helps you,

This might work for some people, but unfortunately whilst my machine is running Win95, when it isn't being used for sim racing it gets used for greedy ray tracing and graphics programs which just won't accomodate other tasks running at the same time. Since I want to run 100% races, and N2 won't let me do that, there's no point in me buying it which is rather disappointing to me to say the least. Mike Excell

> Hmmm....aren't you guys all running NR2 under Win95? From what I see >here I figure you all are. > Why not pause the race and switch out to your desktop and do what >ever you want? > As long as you leave the system on all should be well when you come >back and have time to finish. > Hope this helps you, > Ralph<Ralphw on Hawaii>Williams REPLY: Keep talkin around it. In a million years I might join your side of the argument? Let alone I get, Win '95 can't restore the dos session. So No. I can't do want your saying. Q.B.M.

>> Well, you can probably blame the beta testers in part for not >> fighting harder for it. >Nah, we are to busy balming you guys for the screwed up installation >routine!! :-) LOL! I just use the Pause key. I'm not sure what you mean by this. We were asked to give our opinions, and we did. Unfortunately, due to an NDA I signed, I'm not supposed to talk about what we did during beta testing. I can assure you that the choice we were given was not as simple as to whether to include the Save feature or not. I don't know how they picked the beta testers. I have a wife and two daughters. I run a small business that takes up about 60-70 hours a week of my life. I have never run a 100% race in NASCAR. Do I fit the profile you had in mind? Dave (davids) Sparks Late Night League http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

Actually, no. Kinda imagined you a nerd who never left the house! :-) Actually, you seem like someone would want the save feature. But then again, guess you don't do too many of them (100% races ) in your late night league, huh?

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> > In article , John says... > > >If the Beta testers are to blame for this - then so be it - They made a > > >disatrous error for not considering THIS item as fundimental to the > > >integity of the the main premis of this product. > > Jeff Haas > The save race option was discarded primarily because it creates several > programming problems. The Nascar 1 save feature never worked very well, > and was quite limited. It really has nothing to do with realism, it's > more a matter of time and tools. Regarding GP2, I think I'd be more > upset with the "all cars perform the same," framerates so butt-slow that > you can't run the game on a cray, canned 180 degree spins, automatic > brakes applied when you enter the pits, cartoonish dash board with game > setting cluttered all over it, etc., than I would a save race feature. > Remember folks, it was only a few years ago that all we sim racers had > to look forward to was Test Drive, or Grand Prix II by Accolade, or Bill > Elliott's NASCAR challenge, or Days of Thunder. Those games only > allowed you to race against six or eight cars that displayed no > real-world characteristics whatsoever. So shuddup and drive!

HERE HERE!!! -- ______________________________________________________________________ | | | ____ ___ ___| | Mike Schreiner |CNSRL ADMIN. | ---\ / / /__ | |http://pages.prodigy.com/CNSRL | --\ / /---/_ | | "Mick" on Hawaii |Earnhardt Rules!!| -\/ / / | | "Mick_S" on Ten | | / | ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Every other major racing sim has a save feature. > > In article , John says... > > >If the Beta testers are to blame for this - then so be it - They made a

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> > >disatrous error for not considering THIS item as fundimental to the > > >integity of the the main premis of this product. > > Jeff Haas > The save race option was discarded primarily because it creates several > programming problems. The Nascar 1 save feature never worked very well, > and was quite limited. It really has nothing to do with realism, it's > more a matter of time and tools. Regarding GP2, I think I'd be more > upset with the "all cars perform the same," framerates so butt-slow that > you can't run the game on a cray, canned 180 degree spins, automatic > brakes applied when you enter the pits, cartoonish dash board with game > setting cluttered all over it, etc., than I would a save race feature. > Remember folks, it was only a few years ago that all we sim racers had > to look forward to was Test Drive, or Grand Prix II by Accolade, or Bill > Elliott's NASCAR challenge, or Days of Thunder. Those games only > allowed you to race against six or eight cars that displayed no > real-world characteristics whatsoever. So shuddup and drive!

Hi, Why would Sierra/Papy exclude the "Save Game" feature if SOME people think the feature would decrease the realism of the game? Let the people who want realism (and have a lot of time on their hands) run the race through with out saving the game. Let the rest of us use the "Save Game" feature. It seems sort of silly to me that Sierra/Papy would take out a feature that is just a option, you don't have to use it if you don't want to! John -- Winners never quit, quiters never win

> This might work for some people, but unfortunately whilst my machine is >running Win95, when it isn't being used for sim racing it gets used for greedy >ray tracing and graphics programs which just won't accomodate other tasks >running at the same time. Since I want to run 100% races, and N2 won't let me >do that, there's no point in me buying it which is rather disappointing to me >to say the least. Well then, I guess you've made your point. don't buy it. it'll leave a copy for someone else then.

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>> Hmmm....aren't you guys all running NR2 under Win95? From what I >see >>here I figure you all are. >> Why not pause the race and switch out to your desktop and do what >>ever you want? >> As long as you leave the system on all should be well when you >come >>back and have time to finish. >> Hope this helps you, >> Ralph<Ralphw on Hawaii>Williams >REPLY: >Keep talkin around it. In a million years I might join your side of the >argument? >Let alone I get, Win '95 can't restore the dos session. So No. I can't >do want your saying. >Q.B.M.

You mean Win95 doesn't allow you to multi-task? Wonder how it is ever going to be able to keep up a TCP/IP connection while NR2 is running. I have no problem running NR2 and switching away from it even while I am connected to the internet. But then I don't use Win95 either. Ralph /----------------------------------------------------------------------\ /Ralph Williams My real .sig file is in the shop getting repaired.\ /----------------------------------------------------------------------\

I remember Bill Ellott's NASCAR Challenge, the one race game where I could win at Atlanta, Darlington and Michigan with the same setup! Well... at least BENC has Daytona! I remember test drive too, actually that game was sort of fun! I loved out running those cops! John -- Winners never quit, quiters never win

On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 21:51:40 -0500, "Aw C'mon!"

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>The save race option was discarded primarily because it creates several >programming problems. The Nascar 1 save feature never worked very well, >and was quite limited. It really has nothing to do with realism, it's >more a matter of time and tools. Regarding GP2, I think I'd be more >upset with the "all cars perform the same," framerates so butt-slow that >you can't run the game on a cray, canned 180 degree spins, automatic >brakes applied when you enter the pits, cartoonish dash board with game >setting cluttered all over it, etc., than I would a save race feature. >Remember folks, it was only a few years ago that all we sim racers had >to look forward to was Test Drive, or Grand Prix II by Accolade, or Bill >Elliott's NASCAR challenge, or Days of Thunder. Those games only >allowed you to race against six or eight cars that displayed no >real-world characteristics whatsoever. So shuddup and drive!

I may differ on the details of your post, but I strongly endorse your closing sentiment. Sometimes I wish some of the ungrateful whiners* on here would just send NASCAR2 back to Sierra (they *do* have a money-back guarantee) and end their suffering. ;) * "ungrateful whiners" - Defined as those who whine "when will it be out???" inceasantly, complain "you said it would be out, now it's a day late, stop lying to us!!!", *** that "I paid good money for this game two years ago -- what do you mean I don't get the new version as an upgrade?!?", and moan "I got it, but it doesn't do everything I wanted it to do (never mind that the product wasn't advertised to do that in the first place) and I want a patch IMMEDIATELY!!!". ;) Pick one or more: Model Rockets (competition-NERCB) / PCs (even Atari!) / Papyrus ICR-ICR2-NCR / Who needs a life when you have multiple non-lives?

I think the general assumption here is that somehow they made a decision to take out the save game feature. That is not the case, it was never implemented in any form. Also, as far as I know, the decision had nothing to do with "realism" as I've heard argued here. I think a better way to look at it is if they had decided to implement the Save feature, then something else wouldn't have made it into the game. Dave (davids) Sparks Late Night League http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

And of course, when some sort of patch, or upgrade, or whatever that fixes the bugs comes out, you won't get it, right? Shut up your whining about us whinning, and race. When / if anything comes from our whining, feel free not to become a hypocrite by downloading, and using the new and improved product. * hypocrite * someone who complains about the complainers, yets reaps the benifits of their having done so.

> You mean Win95 doesn't allow you to multi-task? With Nascar 2. No. I can't. Wonder how it is running. Think were talking two different area's now. Good for you. Q.B.M.

| > Lack of save game is a FUNDAMENTAL FLAW, and unless I hear of a fix | > I won't buy N2. | > | > Mike Excell | Give people all the gold then they turn around and want platinum....... Well, Papyrus has demonstrated (since ICR2) that it has a problem with releasing things before they've been adequately debugged and made "user friendly." Given the all-out hatred that occured when ICR2 was released unready, and then not patched for 9 months, you think they'd have learned. But NASCAR for the Playstation (just released), which is sort of a hybrid between N2 and the old N1, is also shot full of bugs. It is usable, but only when you catch it "just right." I can start a track, and one out of every three or four times, I'll have no skid sounds, then next time, I'll have no engine sounds- and then sometimes both. But that is the least of it. Every time I start the damn thing I have to recalibrate my wheel/pedals, and various other things, because it simply doesn't save, *ever*, controller settings. And just as bad, some of the time, it even seems to lose my preferences settings too; it claims it couldn't read the card, but no other playstation game I have ever has a problem. Who knows; *maybe* I have a defective CD. But then, I know Papyrus, especially since Sierra... and this is what I've come to expect.. NASCAR for Playstation isn't a total loss; it is worth the money, it is usable. But I must admit that I don't use it a lot because the idea of completely setting everything up again when it loses my preferences is exhausting, and recalibrating the wheel every time is a chore.

| On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 21:51:40 -0500, "Aw C'mon!" [edited] | >Regarding GP2, I think I'd be more | >upset with the "all cars perform the same," framerates so butt-slow that | >you can't run the game on a cray, canned 180 degree spins, automatic | >brakes applied when you enter the pits, cartoonish dash board with game | >setting cluttered all over it, etc., than I would a save race feature. Since you brought it up, it reminded me that the GP2 Demodisk being passed out at stores seems to have done away with the "canned spin." In general, it seems to be an improved version. I wonder when it will be in the boxed program... anyway, I am deeply ***ed to Psygnosis' F1 now (playstation) at the moment, so they can take their time. | I may differ on the details of your post, but I strongly endorse | your closing sentiment. Sometimes I wish some of the ungrateful | whiners* on here would just send NASCAR2 back to Sierra (they *do* | have a money-back guarantee) and end their suffering. ;) Papy/Sierra will always have it's customers, but they always ask for the flames too. The whole ICR2 debacle really did turn me off; complain as much as you like about the "whiners", but it was sort of unbelievable the degree to which Sierra let ICR2ers hang with an unusable product- 7 months. They really did lose a whole slew of devoted fans; there was a general sense that because it was ICR2 (a series Papy openly admitted wasn't going to be continued) and not NASCAR (their stable money winner), ICR2ers could all go to hell. I'm going to wait a while before I buy N2. I want to hear the whole deal here first, so people- feel free to "whine away."

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>> On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 21:51:40 -0500, "Aw C'mon!" >> I may differ on the details of your post, but I strongly endorse >> your closing sentiment. Sometimes I wish some of the ungrateful >> whiners* on here would just send NASCAR2 back to Sierra (they *do* >> have a money-back guarantee) and end their suffering. ;) >And of course, when some sort of patch, or upgrade, or whatever that fixes >the bugs comes out, you won't get it, right? Shut up your whining about us >whinning, and race. When / if anything comes from our whining, feel free >not to become a hypocrite by downloading, and using the new and improved >product. >* hypocrite * someone who complains about the complainers, yets reaps the >benifits of their having done so.

First, if you re-read *all* of what I posted, it did not really apply to this specific discussion (the race save feature), but was a discussion of the "less reasonable" contributors to this forum. Then again, if the shoe fits... Second, in this particular case, the race save feature is *not* going to get fixed by a patch, so I have no danger of profitting from such a patch. Finally, if I have a valid complaint or suggestion for a vendor, I send it directly to them, instead of wasting my time blowing off steam in this forum (no matter how satisfying it may be ;). Pick one or more: Model Rockets (competition-NERCB) / PCs (even Atari!) / Papyrus ICR-ICR2-NCR / Who needs a life when you have multiple non-lives?

I feel Papyrus left the SAVE game feature out of Nascar2 for one reason. The First and foremost was for online gameing. On hawaii there are just to many people with the mentality of "When I crash, I'll just restart". I think this was partially due to the fact that most users got use to the "safety net" that a SAVE game feature allowed when playing single player. In turn, most users forgot one of the most important part of REAL racing, PATIENCE, PATIENCE. Now some may say this isn't REAL racing, but I feel that NASCAR1 and NASCAR2 are meant to be as pure of a SIM as possible. And if someone isn't interested in participating within those parameters, their are many other ARCADE/SIM raceing games available for both single player and online gameing. I for one have improved alot since "losing" the game save feature. I now have more of a RACERS mentality of SURVIVAL.... And thats REAL SIM RACING, Wayne

We do, and we will. Rest easy. In the meantime, I will continue to play N2 as much as I can. And whine about any bug, or left out feature, I find. The whiners who whine about us whining will just have to put up with us. Or ' add us to their kill file '. Now there is a real punishment!!! :-)

I did read it all, and I will throw it up again so that you can too. You are right, it didn't apply, but was there anyway quoting something that did. You just made a general statement that targeted no one, therefore it hit everyone who was complaining. Send it back? Get real. What do you think Sierra / Papy rather have: Cold hard cash, or people, kinda like me, who complain when a favorite feature is left out of an upgraded program? Well let me see...... $29.95+ or some email and messages in a news group.... Gee, can't make a choice there. Now, those ' Sierra Suck ' guys welll..... I never said they sucked, and that is taking it a bit far. I haven't, to my knowledge, had any dealings with them ( Sierra ), so I can't comment on their customer relations or policy of shipping pre-ordered copys last, instead of first. The 'tech lies' department, however, is something else. If the posters here are to be belived, those people haven't a clue as to what is going on with the Papy side of Sierra, and should not be allowed to comment on it. I did reply to a few messages that had that 'suck' header, and was too lazy to bother changing it. I pre-ordered my copy of Nascar 2 in September, and forgot about it till I saw it was shipping. Emailed the vendor ( Computer Express ) about the order and was told " What order ". So I bought a copy at E.B. Then the next Monday I got my pre-ordered copy that they said didn't exist. So, it isn't just Sierra who has a problem in that area. Still got the extra copy, and am wondering what to do with it... Well, some friend or relative will get it for Christmas. Ah, but I didn't limit it to a patch. I think I threw in something about an upgrade, and even a ' whatever '. Never discount a ' whatever '. It is a catch all. Time spent entertaining myself is never wasted. And why post a complaint to Papy? They do read this, and even respond once in awhile. And I am not pissed at them. Disappointed , yes. Pissed, no. They made a decision to go with what they had ( which isn't bad by any means ) and market a product for the Christmas season. Now that they have, I hope they are allowed the time to ' tweak ' it a little, and maybe make another release, in some format or another. If I appear to rant and rave at Papyrus, I assure you you that I am not. Hell, I like the game, even have two copies!! ( Ok, so one was a mistake ) But I will continue to dispute the e-mail gang and the racing purists. And I am sure they will keep up their end as well. They are wrong, they just don't know it yet! :-) If we / I can't make comments about the game, what are we supposed to do? Just read the posts that compare GP2 ( which I own, but don't play often ) to Nascar and Indycar? Or talk about how fast, or slow, our Reactors and Matrox's are? Gee, that sounds like fun. I would rather have a bunch of messges here heatedly debating the pros & cons of a Nascar / Indycar / GP2 feature that just go through 20 messages or so about my video card. If this bothers anyone, feel free to add us all to your kill files that you like to flaunt. Just don't post a message ' Welcoming ' me to it. No way are you gonna get the last word. Someone will always quote at least a small part of the message, and then you have to ' Kill file ' them too.

Disclaimer : This is not in any way directed to, or in the direction of Papyrus. It is simply my response to this persons misguided stance on the lack of a save game feature, and my attempt to make him ' see the light '. Actually, Adam already said why. Time constraints. This is expensive, and time consuming. When I get crashed out, ( never my fault, of course ) I continue if possible. Someone will always end up wrecking out, and then you move up one place. The reason they quit once wrecked, is because they no longer have a chance of winning, and will go back to the menu and join another game. Why pay the LD charges to sit in a wrecked car at Talladega until the race finishes? I have several, but much prefer Nascar to any of them. If you have imposed a restriction against saving the game, don't save it. Have you no self control? Do you need the option to be removed so you aren't tempted? Since ' losing ' the save feature, I have been just checking out the new tracks. I still can't drive for squat, but I can look at the pretty pictures! :-)

[snip] Adam Levesque already posted the reason the save game feature was left out. Here's the post, in case you missed it: ------------BEGIN QUOTE--------------- Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators Subject: Re: NASCAR 2 - Save race option gone Date: 11 Dec 1996 13:26:20 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com Hi All, Okay, let me replay to this for the last time (I hope). The save game option was left out because we didn't have time to do it. Not because we wanted to make it more "sim" like, not because anyone said we had to, not because we can't stand the thought of people using the game like they want. It was purely a resource/time decision. We decided to have some other features in the game instead of the save race option. I know there are many of you who are upset with that decision and I am sorry about that. Unfortunately, because of the nature of the feature, it would be difficult to implement in a patch. I am not saying it will "never" happen, just that we don't have any plans as of right now. I appreciate all your criticisms and responses regarding this problem. Keep other suggestions coming. Adam Papyrus ---------------END QUOTE----------------

3 of the major sims before nascar2 had this option. Does indycar 3d have this? I bet it does.I think i saw a 600 mile race in n2, wonder how many hours that would take. I like a lot of the new features, but i miss the save & pit board bigtime.

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> I feel Papyrus left the SAVE game feature out of Nascar2 for one reason. > The First and foremost was for online gameing. On hawaii there > are just to many people with the mentality of "When I crash, I'll just > restart". I think this was partially due to the fact that most users got use > to the "safety net" that a SAVE game feature allowed when playing single > player. In turn, most users forgot one of the most important part of REAL > racing, PATIENCE, PATIENCE. Now some may say this isn't REAL racing, > but I feel that NASCAR1 and NASCAR2 are meant to be as pure of a SIM as > possible. And if someone isn't interested in participating within those > parameters, their are many other ARCADE/SIM raceing games available > for both single player and online gameing. I for one have improved alot since > "losing" the game save feature. I now have more of a RACERS mentality of > SURVIVAL.... > And thats REAL SIM RACING, > Wayne

GREAT POST! I agree with you 100% Mick in Tampa -- ______________________________________________________________________ | | | ____ ___ ___| | Mike Schreiner |CNSRL ADMIN. | ---\ / / /__ | |http://pages.prodigy.com/CNSRL | | --\ / /---/_ | | "Mick" on Hawaii |Earnhardt Rules!!| -\/ / / | | "Mick_S" on Ten | | / | ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>> I feel Papyrus left the SAVE game feature out of Nascar2 for one reason. >> The First and foremost was for online gameing. On hawaii there >> are just to many people with the mentality of "When I crash, I'll just >> restart". I think this was partially due to the fact that most users got use >> to the "safety net" that a SAVE game feature allowed when playing single >> player. In turn, most users forgot one of the most important part of REAL >> racing, PATIENCE, PATIENCE. Now some may say this isn't REAL racing, >> but I feel that NASCAR1 and NASCAR2 are meant to be as pure of a SIM as >> possible. And if someone isn't interested in participating within those >> parameters, their are many other ARCADE/SIM raceing games available >> for both single player and online gameing. I for one have improved alot since >> "losing" the game save feature. I now have more of a RACERS mentality of >> SURVIVAL.... >> And thats REAL SIM RACING, >> Wayne >GREAT POST! I agree with you 100% Yeah but that is not why they did it. So I agree minus 100%. Because thet stated why and it had nothing to do with a state. Oh but lets say your point was correct. Well then they could have single player and multiplayer (non-hawaii) saves. And left out saaving in Hawaii connections. Options, we like'em. Q.B.M.

: running Win95, when it isn't being used for sim racing it gets used for greedy : ray tracing and graphics programs which just won't accomodate other tasks : running at the same time. Since I want to run 100% races, and N2 won't let me : do that, there's no point in me buying it which is rather disappointing to me : to say the least. N2 WILL let you run 100% races... the problem here is that you really don't want to run a 100% race... you want maybe 3-4 short races to add upto a 100% race. That's no different than simply running 3-4 short races by themselves except that the winner and stats are different... and perhaps minor strategies... but a 50% race at most tracks contains ALL the same strategies as the 100% would... it's just not as long of a race. I thought about not buying N2 for sometime... but, decided NOT to let the lack of 1 feature keep me from experiencing the enjoyment of all the other features. Just my thoughts. bill -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Breland Motorsports, #88... fast, decisive, knowledged... the future... -- ------------------------------ Bill Pogue Deep In The Heart Of The South

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>> I don't know how they picked the beta testers. I have a wife and two >> daughters. I run a small business that takes up about 60-70 hours a week >of >> my life. I have never run a 100% race in NASCAR. Do I fit the profile you >> had in mind? >Actually, no. Kinda imagined you a nerd who never left the house! :-)

LOL! Nope, we typically run 25-40% races. I deliberately schedule them so that they take about an hour of race time. With practice and qualifying, it's about an hour and a half of online time. The races require at least 1 or 2 pit stops. It's not a race for me unless it includes at least one pit stop. Actually, one of our drivers is organizing a 100% race series on Hawaii. I'd be tempted to run one, just to see what it's like, but my wife would probably kill me if I spent 4 or 5 hours glued to the computer with that engine droning. <g> Dave (davids) Sparks Late Night League http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

>> You mean Win95 doesn't allow you to multi-task? >With Nascar 2. No. I can't. The correct answer, as with many things, is "yes and no". ;) If you are running the VGA/SVGA version of NASCAR2, you can set it to run in Win95 (full screen mode only), programs can run in the background, and it will respond to Alt-Tab to switch programs. The Rendition version of NASCAR2 will do all of these things except the last -- it won't respond to Alt-Tab and I don't know how to get back to Win95, aside from quitting NASCAR2. Programs started prior to NASCAR keep running (I've had Forte Free Agent happily DLing newgroup headers the whole time I tested this), so once you establish a network connection for online racing you should be OK -- if you need to have access to your networking program *during* NASCAR2, you may well have a problem (I don't know specifically how stuff like TEN & NRO will work). I assume the question here is (S)VGA mode vs. Rendition mode. Pick one or more: Model Rockets (competition-NERCB) / PCs (even Atari!) / Papyrus ICR-ICR2-NCR / Who needs a life when you have multiple non-lives?

The computer drone she could handle ( since she stuck the computer in a back room ) but once that phonebill hit she would have a cow. As it is, she gets a case when she see those 1 1/2 hour calls to MA. She swears I am calling my ' honey '. ( Little does she know..... :-) )

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>* "ungrateful whiners" - Defined as those who whine "when will it be >out???" inceasantly, complain "you said it would be out, now it's a >day late, stop lying to us!!!", *** that "I paid good money for this >game two years ago -- what do you mean I don't get the new version as >an upgrade?!?", and moan "I got it, but it doesn't do everything I >wanted it to do (never mind that the product wasn't advertised to do >that in the first place) and I want a patch IMMEDIATELY!!!". ;)

Wow, just what I tried to say in a post recently! Thanks for that. Stuart -- Stuart Booth Somewhere in Oxfordshire, England, UK

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> >I feel Papyrus left the SAVE game feature out of Nascar2 for one reason. > >The First and foremost was for online gameing. On hawaii there > [snip] > Adam Levesque already posted the reason the save game feature was left out. > Here's the post, in case you missed it: > ------------BEGIN QUOTE--------------- > Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators > Subject: Re: NASCAR 2 - Save race option gone > Date: 11 Dec 1996 13:26:20 GMT > Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com > Lines: 16 > NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com > Hi All, > Okay, let me replay to this for the last time (I hope). The save > game option was left out because we didn't have time to do it. Not > because we wanted to make it more "sim" like, not because anyone said we > had to, not because we can't stand the thought of people using the game > like they want. It was purely a resource/time decision. We decided to > have some other features in the game instead of the save race option. I > know there are many of you who are upset with that decision and I am sorry > about that. Unfortunately, because of the nature of the feature, it would > be difficult to implement in a patch. I am not saying it will "never" > happen, just that we don't have any plans as of right now. I appreciate > all your criticisms and responses regarding this problem. Keep other > suggestions coming. > Adam > Papyrus > ---------------END QUOTE----------------

First of all adam this game is awsome much more forgiving than nas1 But i am one who would really like to see the game save option,we"re talking 3-4 hours in full race i just cant do it i have a life too! and a wife damnit i know we can pause it but still makes for a long day Please do what you can to get this back im begging you. Other than that this game is great , one question though why does it seem hard to catch the cars in arcade mode it seems easier to race in realistic mode, does the % mean anything in strength in arcade mode. thanks

-> I have GP Manager I but I prefer Grand Prix Wizard by -> Wizard Games of Scotland. -> It's not as graphics intensive as GPM but Guess what -- no -> bugs! I have more info if you want it. Tell me more !!! Is it a manager game that actually _works_ ??? Regards Lars --- t RM 1.31 0418 t J'aime la bonne vie!

> Other than that this game is great , one question though why does it > seem hard to catch the cars in arcade mode it seems easier to race in > realistic mode, does the % mean anything in strength in arcade mode. Arcade mode in N2 is designed so that the AI cars continually adapt their strength to the player's performance. The faster you go, the faster they go. (In the coin-op world, it's called "catch-up mode.") Yes, the opp strength % does also affect this. Basically, the AI cars will take off like a shot at the start of the race, but you should be able to catch them throughout the course of the race if you drive quite well. It's challenging with a short race length, but that's part of what makes it fun... ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

<snip> : Second, in this particular case, the race save feature is *not* : going to get fixed by a patch, so I have no danger of profitting from : such a patch. <snip> Care to inform us of your "reliable" source for the above information? Unless you know for a fact that this is true now and in the future, please refrain from imparting "false" and "unconfirmed" information. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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> <snip> > : Second, in this particular case, the race save feature is *not* > : going to get fixed by a patch, so I have no danger of profitting from > : such a patch. > <snip> > Care to inform us of your "reliable" source for the above information? > Unless you know for a fact that this is true now and in the future, > please refrain from imparting "false" and "unconfirmed" information.

I dont know about his "source" but I read it from Adam of Papy, is that reliable enough for you? Trev

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> <snip> > : Second, in this particular case, the race save feature is *not* > : going to get fixed by a patch, so I have no danger of profitting from > : such a patch. > <snip> > Care to inform us of your "reliable" source for the above information? > Unless you know for a fact that this is true now and in the future, > please refrain from imparting "false" and "unconfirmed" information.

Actually, Adam came out and said that the Save Game was something not easily implemented by a patch. He didn't say it would never come back, but it is not something they are too concerned about. Guess they want to fix some of the existing problems before introducing others. I am resigned to not having a Save feature in N2. Hope N3 puts it back. If not, well, there is always N4, right? :-) Will continue to argue with the emailers, but only because they are so easily excitable!! :-) > -- > **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> > hi my name is juan and i`m interestig Uh oh. Time to find a new newsgroup. -- Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA RaceTime utility program for Nascar1/Indycar2. http://www.metronet.com/~cstuart/