So that's what Kaemmer is up to...

http://taurisanofamily.com/racing/index.php?showtopic=339 Article is from the latest PC Gamer.

http://taurisanofamily.com/racing/index.php?showtopic=339 Article is from the latest PC Gamer.

> Article is from the latest PC Gamer. Sounds like Kaemmer is trying to compete with the West brothers...

Compete, I think the West Brothers would have to have a product first. "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Article is from the latest PC Gamer. > > Sounds like Kaemmer is trying to compete with the West brothers... > >

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:00:25 +1000, "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote: >> Article is from the latest PC Gamer. > >Sounds like Kaemmer is trying to compete with the West brothers... Or Live For Speed. Altho I suspect whatever Kaemmer does is going to have licensing, especially if John WH is an investor. It's pretty awesome thinking about what he and Steve Myers will do now that they don't have to answer to Sierra/VU.

Do the West brothers make racing games? I know they make vaporware. "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Article is from the latest PC Gamer. > > Sounds like Kaemmer is trying to compete with the West brothers... > >

"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote > http://taurisanofamily.com/racing/index.php?showtopic=339 > > Article is from the latest PC Gamer. Jebus, this feels like Bizarro-world. In a positive way 8)))))))) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Jason Moyer wrote: > http://taurisanofamily.com/racing/index.php?showtopic=339 > > Article is from the latest PC Gamer. someone explain the jist of it for those of us who have their boss sat right behined them and their MD set next to them :o

In article <40f640c9$0$58823$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (john henry bonham) wrote: > someone explain the jist of it Basically Kaemmer etc bought the rights to their code back and will be continuing to work independently. Great news. Andrew McP

"Jason Moyer" wrote... > <snip> > Article is from the latest PC Gamer. "The simulations we were making at Papyrus are being sold in the wrong market". "It's like selling downhill skis at Toys 'R' Us." Our boy Kaemmer is catching on... finally. 18 to 24 months... oh well, back to GPL for the time being. <g> Jan. =---

> Our boy Kaemmer is catching on... finally. > > 18 to 24 months... oh well, back to GPL for the time being. <g> We don't need Kaemmer any more - we've got SBDT. <g>

Ill wait till the online code has been tested on that one. Hopefully sbdt are allowed to fully re-write isi's awful effort dan "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Our boy Kaemmer is catching on... finally. > > > > 18 to 24 months... oh well, back to GPL for the time being. <g> > > We don't need Kaemmer any more - we've got SBDT. <g>

> Ill wait till the online code has been tested on that one. Hopefully sbdt > are allowed to fully re-write isi's awful effort They already have

At the link read the first post with the main story, and skip the rest. Most of them are childish and sound like they are coming from arcade gamer's that don't have a clue about the spirit of what Papyrus did, does, and will do again. I wish them all the luck and I'm looking forward to whatever they come out with. And as I've stated before, I have ZERO problem paying a fee for online racing as long as it's a quality service. -Larry "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > http://taurisanofamily.com/racing/index.php?showtopic=339 > > Article is from the latest PC Gamer.

Are you helping test it? whats it like? "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Ill wait till the online code has been tested on that one. Hopefullysbdt > > are allowed to fully re-write isi's awful effort > > They already have > >

May have already re-wrote it, but is it any good? Papy still sets the standard for that. Well, that and everything else in a sim. lol "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Ill wait till the online code has been tested on that one. Hopefullysbdt > > are allowed to fully re-write isi's awful effort > > They already have > >

OOOOH!!!! "Michael Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:XGmJc.10308$[email hidden]...

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> Compete, I think the West Brothers would have to have a product first. > > "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > Article is from the latest PC Gamer. > > > > Sounds like Kaemmer is trying to compete with the West brothers... > > > > > >

OOOOH!!!!

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> Compete, I think the West Brothers would have to have a product first. > > > Article is from the latest PC Gamer. > > Sounds like Kaemmer is trying to compete with the West brothers...

You disagree? "TDRacin�" <TDRacinnospamflashmail.com> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> OOOOH!!!! > > > "Michael Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:XGmJc.10308$[email hidden]... > > Compete, I think the West Brothers would have to have a product first. > > > > "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Article is from the latest PC Gamer. > > > > > > Sounds like Kaemmer is trying to compete with the West brothers... > > > > > > > > > > > >

You disagree?

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> OOOOH!!!! > > Compete, I think the West Brothers would have to have a product first. > > > > Article is from the latest PC Gamer. > > > Sounds like Kaemmer is trying to compete with the West brothers...

I just read (BHMS) that SBDT couldnt get decent multi with 16 players so they are in another re-write. Have you tried the demo Tim? IMO the press demo outclasses (by a large margin) anything Papy has given us to date from a pure driving standpoint. We'll have to wait and see what the final brings us but if it's half as good as the demo the new Papy has their work cut out for them. Mitch "TDRacin�" <TDRacinnospamflashmail.com> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > May have already re-wrote it, but is it any good? Papy still sets the > standard for that. Well, that and everything else in a sim. lol >

> > "TDRacin�" <TDRacinnospamflashmail.com> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> OOOOH!!!! "Michael Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:0DEJc.11583$kK.1162 @newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net: > You disagree? I don't think so Mike,,,a disagreement would probably be inferred by: oooh...the above CLEARLY has one more O and all letters are capiti...err...all in big letters. dave henrie

agreed.. papy, more like crappy. flame away mike "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1lFJc.10876$[email hidden]... > I just read (BHMS) that SBDT couldnt get decent multi with 16 players so > they are in another re-write. > > Have you tried the demo Tim? IMO the press demo outclasses (by a large > margin) anything Papy has given us to date from a pure driving standpoint. > We'll have to wait and see what the final brings us but if it's half asgood

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> as the demo the new Papy has their work cut out for them. > > Mitch > > > "TDRacin�" <TDRacinnospamflashmail.com> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > May have already re-wrote it, but is it any good? Papy still sets the > > standard for that. Well, that and everything else in a sim. lol > > > >

> I just read (BHMS) that SBDT couldnt get decent multi with 16 players so > they are in another re-write. > > Have you tried the demo Tim? IMO the press demo outclasses (by a large > margin) anything Papy has given us to date from a pure driving standpoint. > We'll have to wait and see what the final brings us but if it's half asgood > as the demo the new Papy has their work cut out for them. Yes, but for some reason the engine doesn't seem to lend itself to good multiplayer or replays. SBDT have stated that they won't release the game until they've got 30+ cars running smoothly on a dedicated server. Hope that doesn't mean that the game will be horribly delayed. LFS and Netkar are the only other sims that I've played that can match Papy in the netcode department.

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 03:13:04 -0400, "Mike Beauchamp" <[email hidden]> wrote: >agreed.. >papy, more like crappy. Besides the shitty multiplayer and tire/aero modelling that's been present in everything made using an ISI engine, I agree 100%. Not that any of those things are important components of a sim.

> Besides the shitty multiplayer and tire/aero modelling that's been > present in everything made using an ISI engine, I agree 100%. > > Not that any of those things are important components of a sim. I'm a suspension fan....that's where ISI beat the competition into a bleeding pulp. Well, except maybe Wartog (who I'd never even heard of before RBR)

"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<ANxJc.6613$nF1.3998@lakeread04>...

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> At the link read the first post with the main story, and skip the rest. > Most of them are childish and sound like they are coming from arcade gamer's > that don't have a clue about the spirit of what Papyrus did, does, and will > do again. > > I wish them all the luck and I'm looking forward to whatever they come out > with. > > And as I've stated before, I have ZERO problem paying a fee for online > racing as long as it's a quality service. > > -Larry > > "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > http://taurisanofamily.com/racing/index.php?showtopic=339 > > > > Article is from the latest PC Gamer.

Papys Multiplayer coad is the best there is . as for GTR if they can get at least 30 cars for multi it will be a blast ..

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>You disagree? > >"TDRacin�" <TDRacinnospamflashmail.com> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> OOOOH!!!! >> >> >> "Michael Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:XGmJc.10308$[email hidden]... >> > Compete, I think the West Brothers would have to have a product first. >> > >> > "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> > news:[email hidden]... >> > > > Article is from the latest PC Gamer. >> > > >> > > Sounds like Kaemmer is trying to compete with the West brothers... >> > >

Techically, Kaemmer doesn't have a product yet, either... :-) Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

"Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> Yes, but for some reason the engine doesn't seem to lend itself to > good multiplayer or replays. SBDT have stated that they won't release > the game until they've got 30+ cars running smoothly on a dedicated > server. Hope that doesn't mean that the game will be horribly > delayed. LFS and Netkar are the only other sims that I've played that > can match Papy in the netcode department. >

Nascar Heat has excellent netcode. cheers John

On 16 Jul 2004 15:42:27 GMT, JM <[email hidden]> wrote: >Nascar Heat has excellent netcode. MGI's switch to console-only a few years ago was a pretty big loss. Viper Racing and Nascar Heat were both incredible titles when they came out.

SBDT ? What's that? I get the Silent But Deadly part, but the T ? Turd ? -Larry "Dan Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Ill wait till the online code has been tested on that one. Hopefully sbdt > are allowed to fully re-write isi's awful effort > dan > "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > Our boy Kaemmer is catching on... finally. > > > > > > 18 to 24 months... oh well, back to GPL for the time being. <g> > > > > We don't need Kaemmer any more - we've got SBDT. <g> > >

Sim Bin Dev Team. "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4XUJc.36$ci.32@lakeread04...

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> SBDT ? > > What's that? > > I get the Silent But Deadly part, but the T ? Turd ? > > -Larry > > "Dan Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Ill wait till the online code has been tested on that one. Hopefully

sbdt

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> > are allowed to fully re-write isi's awful effort > > dan > > "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Our boy Kaemmer is catching on... finally. > > > > > > > > 18 to 24 months... oh well, back to GPL for the time being. <g> > > > > > > We don't need Kaemmer any more - we've got SBDT. <g> > > > > > >

I disagree, there is no tire feel in GTR making the feel for the edge almost impossible. But in other things they are better, but we are comparing a up to date sim with a 4-5 years old one. EL "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1lFJc.10876$[email hidden]... > I just read (BHMS) that SBDT couldnt get decent multi with 16 players so > they are in another re-write. > > Have you tried the demo Tim? IMO the press demo outclasses (by a large > margin) anything Papy has given us to date from a pure driving standpoint. > We'll have to wait and see what the final brings us but if it's half asgood

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> as the demo the new Papy has their work cut out for them. > > Mitch > > > "TDRacin�" <TDRacinnospamflashmail.com> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > May have already re-wrote it, but is it any good? Papy still sets the > > standard for that. Well, that and everything else in a sim. lol > > > >

So GTR is great, but F1C isn't even though GTR is just a sports car mod of F1C? . That doesn't make any sense. They look and feel identical except one is F1, and one is sports cars. A properly set up F1 car in F1C is the most realistic sim driving experience you can get right now. Driving those F1 cars in F1C is also the best way to improve someone's road racing skills in any sim. -- David G Fisher "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 03:13:04 -0400, "Mike Beauchamp" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >agreed.. > >papy, more like crappy. > > Besides the shitty multiplayer and tire/aero modelling that's been > present in everything made using an ISI engine, I agree 100%. > > Not that any of those things are important components of a sim.

I turned up the tire scrub sound effect and I get very good feel and can actually save the car once it does come loose. Keep in mind were talking a press demo so all this talk is subject to change. I wasnt really comparing anything just pointing out to Tim that we have options coming other than NR2003/GPL. The new (un-named)Papy wont have anything to compare for a couple years. Mitch "EL" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:WLYJc.2136$[email hidden]... > I disagree, there is no tire feel in GTR making the feel for the edgealmost

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> impossible. But in other things they are better, but we are comparing a up > to date sim with a 4-5 years old one. > > EL > > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:1lFJc.10876$[email hidden]... > > I just read (BHMS) that SBDT couldnt get decent multi with 16 players so > > they are in another re-write. > > > > Have you tried the demo Tim? IMO the press demo outclasses (by a large > > margin) anything Papy has given us to date from a pure driving

standpoint.

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> > We'll have to wait and see what the final brings us but if it's half as > good > > as the demo the new Papy has their work cut out for them. > > > > Mitch > > > > > > "TDRacin�" <TDRacinnospamflashmail.com> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > May have already re-wrote it, but is it any good? Papy still sets the > > > standard for that. Well, that and everything else in a sim. lol > > > > > > > > >

Their are "similarities" between F1C and GTR press demo (not the mod) as their is between N4 and NR2003, but hardly identical. I just ran a few laps at Spa using the SCC mod and immediately went back to GTR and the difference is enough that I doubt Ill ever go back to SCC. Mitch "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > So GTR is great, but F1C isn't even though GTR is just a sports car mod of > F1C? . > > That doesn't make any sense. They look and feel identical except one isF1, > and one is sports cars. > > A properly set up F1 car in F1C is the most realistic sim drivingexperience > you can get right now. Driving those F1 cars in F1C is also the best wayto

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> improve someone's road racing skills in any sim. > > > -- > David G Fisher > > > > > "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 03:13:04 -0400, "Mike Beauchamp" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >agreed.. > > >papy, more like crappy. > > > > Besides the shitty multiplayer and tire/aero modelling that's been > > present in everything made using an ISI engine, I agree 100%. > > > > Not that any of those things are important components of a sim. > >

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:41:39 GMT, "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Their are "similarities" between F1C and GTR press demo (not the mod) as >their is between N4 and NR2003, but hardly identical. I just ran a few laps >at Spa using the SCC mod and immediately went back to GTR and the difference >is enough that I doubt Ill ever go back to SCC. The GTR demo is by far the best thing done in that engine, and from what I've heard the physics were still in a pretty primitive stage in that release.

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:26:31 -0400, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >So GTR is great, but F1C isn't even though GTR is just a sports car mod of >F1C? . If F1C fixed a few things I'm sure I'd be enjoying it as much as when it came out. Aside from the tracks which I don't need to harp on again, the tire and aero models are silly. It's easier to control a slide at high speed than at low speed since there's no tire flex whatsoever and the wings don't lose much effectiveness when they're not pointing in the same direction as the car. The tire model pretty much speaks for itself when you look at the ridiculous amount of camber that most people are using since there's no grip or wear penalty from running the inside edges too hot. Suspension wise, a real F1 team would run fairly stiff springs and the ride height as low as possible to maximize downforce and minimize drag. In F1C you're better off running soft springs (or fully stiff front, fully soft rear, as seems to be the case for most people) and cranking up the ride height since the tiny gain made by keeping the front wing and diffuser close to the ground is dwarfed by the loss in mechanical grip from running stiff springs.

lol, but he's at least had one at some point :) "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Techically, Kaemmer doesn't have a product yet, either... :-) > > Eldred > -- > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Screamers League > IICC League > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > Hist. +82.34 MoH:na > N2k3 rank:in progress > Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin > Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro > US East

I agree that they could probably easily change this, i did the same thing but still think the sounds is more like a on/off thing rather then gradual. EL "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:JuZJc.93076$[email hidden]... > I turned up the tire scrub sound effect and I get very good feel and can > actually save the car once it does come loose. Keep in mind were talkinga > press demo so all this talk is subject to change. I wasnt reallycomparing

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> anything just pointing out to Tim that we have options coming other than > NR2003/GPL. The new (un-named)Papy wont have anything to compare for a > couple years. > > Mitch > > > "EL" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:WLYJc.2136$[email hidden]... > > I disagree, there is no tire feel in GTR making the feel for the edge > almost > > impossible. But in other things they are better, but we are comparing a

up

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> > to date sim with a 4-5 years old one. > > > > EL > > > > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:1lFJc.10876$[email hidden]... > > > I just read (BHMS) that SBDT couldnt get decent multi with 16 players

so > > > they are in another re-write. > > > > > > Have you tried the demo Tim? IMO the press demo outclasses (by alarge > > > margin) anything Papy has given us to date from a pure driving > standpoint. > > > We'll have to wait and see what the final brings us but if it's halfas

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> > good > > > as the demo the new Papy has their work cut out for them. > > > > > > Mitch > > > > > > > > > "TDRacin�" <TDRacinnospamflashmail.com> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > May have already re-wrote it, but is it any good? Papy still sets

the

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> > > > standard for that. Well, that and everything else in a sim. lol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"Mitch_A" wrote: > Have you tried the demo Tim? IMO the press demo outclasses (by a large > margin) anything Papy has given us to date from a pure driving standpoint. > We'll have to wait and see what the final brings us but if it's half asgood > as the demo the new Papy has their work cut out for them. Without wishing to be too controversial, I think that GTR manages to improve the quality of FF. As I am not a fan of FF it does absolutely nothing for me over the Papy sims. Quite the reverse it is less effective in providing feel through the other cues. I believe it relies on the FF as its primary mechanism. Whilst this may seem more realistic I am not convinced that the steering wheel is the primary means of telling the brain what is going on with a sliding car but the attitude of the car and seat of the pants feel which is provided by visual & audio cues in a sim. Just IMHO of course! Cheers Tony

I totally agree Tony. I also hope the scrubbing sound is improved from the on/off sound we now get. Mitch "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in > Without wishing to be too controversial, I think that GTR manages toimprove > the quality of FF. As I am not a fan of FF it does absolutely nothing forme > over the Papy sims. Quite the reverse it is less effective in providingfeel > through the other cues. I believe it relies on the FF as its primary > mechanism. > > Whilst this may seem more realistic I am not convinced that the steering > wheel is the primary means of telling the brain what is going on with a > sliding car but the attitude of the car and seat of the pants feel whichis

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> provided by visual & audio cues in a sim. > > Just IMHO of course! > > Cheers > Tony > >

"Mitch_A" wrote: > I totally agree Tony. I also hope the scrubbing sound is improved fromthe > on/off sound we now get. The good news is that it seems we are going to get a choice, now that Kaemmer is back on the scene and GTR is taking the ISI engine further. I believe we have moved to a level of sophistication where the next "big" sim release won't necessary blow the competition away as it did in the old F1GP to ICR to Nascar1 to GP2 etc days. The only way to reach the ultimate sim is for some very expensive hydraulics. Otherwise the makers have to find another way of providing the physical inputs. As stated I believe that Papy & ISI take two different approaches and neither are right or wrong, I don't care what people say about real world figures being used there is a fudge element when replacing physical inputs to the body through graphics, sound or steering wheel FF. IMHO there is no categoric best sim right now. Cheers Tony

Maybe, but Kaemmer has a better track record of producing. That definitely gives him an advantage. Besides producing 8 of the best NASCAR sims ever (N1,2,3,4,99,02,03, & Legends). Then there's ICR 1 & 2. Oh, and I500. I think they also had something called GPL. Not sure what that's about... :) Sounds like a more impressive resume to me. Mike On 16 Jul 2004 14:18:00 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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>>You disagree? >> >>"TDRacin�" <TDRacinnospamflashmail.com> wrote in message >>news:[email hidden]... >>> OOOOH!!!! >>> >>> >>> "Michael Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>> news:XGmJc.10308$[email hidden]... >>> > Compete, I think the West Brothers would have to have a product first. >>> > >>> > "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>> > news:[email hidden]... >>> > > > Article is from the latest PC Gamer. >>> > > >>> > > Sounds like Kaemmer is trying to compete with the West brothers... >>> > > > >Techically, Kaemmer doesn't have a product yet, either... :-) > >Eldred

To say N1,2,3,4,99,02,03 and Legends are distinctly individual products is an extreme stretch of the imagination. Its more like N1and N4 with graphics or minor updates to the original respective game engines for all the rest. I hear ya though. It was more likely the suits who made those decisions not Kaemmer Mitch "Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Maybe, but Kaemmer has a better track record of producing. That > definitely gives him an advantage. Besides producing 8 of the best > NASCAR sims ever (N1,2,3,4,99,02,03, & Legends). Then there's ICR 1 & > 2. Oh, and I500. I think they also had something called GPL. Not > sure what that's about... :) Sounds like a more impressive resume to > me. > > Mike >

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:09:59 GMT, "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote: >To say N1,2,3,4,99,02,03 and Legends are distinctly individual products is >an extreme stretch of the imagination. Its more like N1and N4 with graphics >or minor updates to the original respective game engines for all the rest. >I hear ya though. It was more likely the suits who made those decisions not >Kaemmer In any case, all Kammer had to do was release 1 product at some point in his career to make any comparisons to the Wests invalid. =) Jason

Mike Donnelly Jr <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Maybe, but Kaemmer has a better track record of producing. That > definitely gives him an advantage. Besides producing 8 of the best > NASCAR sims ever (N1,2,3,4,99,02,03, & Legends). Then there's ICR 1 & > 2. Oh, and I500. I think they also had something called GPL. Not > sure what that's about... :) Sounds like a more impressive resume to > me. > > Mike

I think its safe to say he didn't produce eight *different* nascar sims. Hardly in fact. >

"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:41:39 GMT, "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Their are "similarities" between F1C and GTR press demo (not the mod) as > >their is between N4 and NR2003, but hardly identical. I just ran a fewlaps > >at Spa using the SCC mod and immediately went back to GTR and thedifference > >is enough that I doubt Ill ever go back to SCC. > > The GTR demo is by far the best thing done in that engine, and from > what I've heard the physics were still in a pretty primitive stage in > that release. "From what I've heard" being the key phrase. Wasn't everyone's GPL hero Doug Arnao part of the F1C development team, and didn't he praise the physics? -- David G Fisher

"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:26:31 -0400, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >So GTR is great, but F1C isn't even though GTR is just a sports car modof

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> >F1C? . > > If F1C fixed a few things I'm sure I'd be enjoying it as much as when > it came out. Aside from the tracks which I don't need to harp on > again, the tire and aero models are silly. It's easier to control a > slide at high speed than at low speed since there's no tire flex > whatsoever and the wings don't lose much effectiveness when they're > not pointing in the same direction as the car. The tire model pretty > much speaks for itself when you look at the ridiculous amount of > camber that most people are using since there's no grip or wear > penalty from running the inside edges too hot.

I've tried those setups with too much camber, and I've tried adding a lot of camber to my own setups. There was no gain, and instead the tires heated unevenly, and I ended up having less grip and slower lap times.

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> Suspension wise, a real F1 team would run fairly stiff springs and the > ride height as low as possible to maximize downforce and minimize > drag. In F1C you're better off running soft springs (or fully stiff > front, fully soft rear, as seems to be the case for most people) and > cranking up the ride height since the tiny gain made by keeping the > front wing and diffuser close to the ground is dwarfed by the loss in > mechanical grip from running stiff springs.

I use stiff suspension settings because I go faster, the car handles better, and is more stable. With the camber and suspension settings you mention, I think it's just *another* case of myths being passed on as facts in the sim community. If I had a dime........ It wouldn't surprise me though that some people can use unrealistic settings and still be quick (are they quick and consistent too?) because there hasn't been a sim made yet where that hasn't happened. -- David G Fisher

Mitch_A wrote:

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> To say N1,2,3,4,99,02,03 and Legends are distinctly individual products is > an extreme stretch of the imagination. Its more like N1and N4 with graphics > or minor updates to the original respective game engines for all the rest. > I hear ya though. It was more likely the suits who made those decisions not > Kaemmer > > Mitch

And I'd make the argument that Racing Legends is no more distinct from World Sports Cars, than N1 is from N03. Knowledge was accumulated by both parties (Kaemmer & the Wests) and applied to succeeding products. The difference being that Kaemmer was able to get a product to market while the Wests have not. Yes the suits made "those decisions", but Kaemmer was able to live within the established boundaries while getting a product to market. It's a widely held belief in this forum and others, that the West brothers are not capable of dealing with reality. Thereby dooming all three of their projects. If you're backing a project, who are you going to put your money on? The man with a successful past, who's been able to secure financing and a wealthy investor? Or two brothers with three failed projects, no investor, and who have resorted to selling teddy bears and their house to keep their project afloat? (Let's not even bring up the cat.)

You and Jason are both right> I meandered off the subject. As you can tell Im still PO'd about N3 :-) Mitch "Internet User" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >

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> And I'd make the argument that Racing Legends is no more distinct from > World Sports Cars, than N1 is from N03. Knowledge was accumulated by > both parties (Kaemmer & the Wests) and applied to succeeding products. > The difference being that Kaemmer was able to get a product to market > while the Wests have not. > > Yes the suits made "those decisions", but Kaemmer was able to live > within the established boundaries while getting a product to market. > It's a widely held belief in this forum and others, that the West > brothers are not capable of dealing with reality. Thereby dooming all > three of their projects. > > If you're backing a project, who are you going to put your money on? > The man with a successful past, who's been able to secure financing and > a wealthy investor? Or two brothers with three failed projects, no > investor, and who have resorted to selling teddy bears and their house > to keep their project afloat? (Let's not even bring up the cat.)

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> The GTR demo is by far the best thing done in that engine, and from >> what I've heard the physics were still in a pretty primitive stage in >> that release. > > "From what I've heard" being the key phrase. Wasn't everyone's GPL > hero Doug Arnao part of the F1C development team, and didn't he praise > the physics? >

Doug is indeed a part of SBDT and the main man behind the physics of GTR. He advised on F1c or collaborated with ISI. So the physics are from ISI via input from SBDT's Arnao. Doug was instrumental in the early testing of GPL wasn't he? GTR's driving physics have evolved at least twice since the press demo was released. I would be mildly suprised if any :08 or :09 laps happen right away at Spa when they finally do release it.. Further, SBDT is using v1.0 of ISI's Motor engine(physics)<with their own modifications to that engine> and I would be very very suprised if ISI isn't up to v2 by the time they release their own Rfactor sim. As usual I whipped this post out...I hope I haven't scrambled any of the actual names of the engines or products. dh