To: IVGA MEMBERSHIP
From: Don Wilshe
Subject: PAPYRUS advises Don Wilshe and the IVGA!!!!
Members:
As you know we here at the IVGA have written over 30,000 lines of C++
code at our expense
in excess of $30,000. We did this provide integrity to off-line racing
and fastlapping
for Papyrus NASCAR and INDYCAR. We have over 600 people that use the
IVGA software and
we have never had any member accuse a member of cheating. We have
accomplished our goals. To
accomplish that goal we had to gather all the information to detect
CHEATING and prevent
it.
For you that have never read the IVGA OVERVIEW let me regress and lets
review it
and what it says.....
=======================================================================================
IVGA OVERVIEW
"No Friends at 200MPH, Only Fans"
IVGA BRIEF: The IVGA is an organization that was founded on the premise
that video simulation gaming is a BRAINSPORT and recognizes that
individual
can THINK and REACT to the demands of computer simulations. We know it
takes
special mental skills to drive a virtual racing car and have yet to find
any real race car drivers that can run with INTERNETS best. The IVGA is
the
home of the very serious, hard-core and best drivers in the world.
Unlike
other INTERNET RACING SERIES, the IVGA is a commercial enterprise. We
use
advanced software technology to provide continuous integrity and
technical
inspection and monitoring of drivers while they are either RACING or
attempting for a world record FASTLAP. Our goal, like NASCAR, is to
eliminate HACKING by using special software during the entire racing
process.
We will look at and use every piece of information available to the IVGA
software to maintain integrity. When the NASCAR or INDYCAR software has
fixed it's problems we will delete this code from the IVGA software.
In our series we have no rules for cheating and we have no reprimands,
banishments, threats as its not possible as we monitor the events with
custom technical inspection software.
====================================================================================
In summary, Papyrus has recommended to me:
1). I send out there information to all IVGA Members!!!
2). That I suspend the entire IVGA staff from racing in the NRL
I am the only member that would be suspended as:
Joe Farr never had access to any information....
Jim Jannseen only wrote the software and we have talked in 5 months as
he
is very busy at NETSCAPE..
All other associate members like Josh Carr, Julain Data arent involved
in the
racing operation!!!!!!!!!
Once again we are telling all the members of the IVGA that we gather all
information
to insure racing integrity. But I and only me know the codes that
unlock that
information including setups. You can believe what you want but I have
never
found a setup in NASCAR fastlap results or race results that helped me
on HAWAII.
People wondered why I was so fast at Michigan and Atlanta.. I blistered
the field
with a setup that is 100% still what I use today and I got that from
Pekka Heino
who has shared his setups with everyone.. Ironically I use the same
setup at
Michigan and Atlanta.. As far as Taladega although I have received lots
and lots
of setps its simple.. 3.5 gear, 60 psi and 100% shocks... Actually the
World's
Greatest Talaedega driver .. Who used to race with us Charlie Mone gave
me that
setup. As far as the Setup for Charlotte I forget.. You see as the
President
of the IVGA I get lots and lots of setups.. I guess they feel that since
I am
in this position I should not do the NRL as I get to much information.
And course
thier are all the other tracks.. The Road Course.. I cant even get
around the
tracks. The 3/4 miles I am the worst.. The 1 miles.. Pretty sad there
as well..
As you know I do not race the FASTLAP or the OFF-LINE racing... As I am
the chief
technical inspector and see all that information I could see a
conflict.
HAWAII vs NASCAR!!!
I really thought it was ok for me to run in the HAWAII beta testing as
the physics
engines for NASCAR vs. Multi are different.
Papyrus has asked me not to run in the NRL series, but I will let my
membership
determine that.. I want each of you to vote either that I can or I
cant.. I will
stand by your decision. If You want me to run, than the next decision
is whether
PAPYRUS and the NRL will allow me to run... As I stated along time
ago.......
"No Friends at 200mph, only Fans"
There is still a major problem and that is if I have all the information
and I cant
race than why can People who have the same information that work with
PAPYRUS be
allowed to race,.... I think they call this a DOUBLE STANDARD!! Or
could it be
away to eliminate a lot of strong competitions for thier BOYS!!!!!!!!!
In the
July 1996 newsletter from Ed Martin to all of us he told us that he
looks at
everything and has everything.. WHATS THE DIFF??????????????????????
Sincerely,
Don Wilshe, IVGA
====================================================================================
On 18 Nov 96 10:29:55 Dave_Matson/[email hidden] wrote:
>Return-Path: <Dave_Matson/[email hidden]>
>Received: from nsx.papy.com ([199.103.241.73]) by rosie.scsn.net
> (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-13529) with SMTP id AAA150
> for <[email hidden]>; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:38:05 -0500
>Received: by nsx.papy.com (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.17/2.12um) id AA0761; Mon, 18 Nov 96 10:31:14 -0500
...
read more »
Notable threadFlame warIVGA head says Papyrus asked him to sit out the NRL
Don Wilshere posted that Papyrus had asked IVGA staff not to take part in the NASCAR Racing League because their fast-lap software captured members' setups, and he questioned why beta testers could race. Adam Levesque defended the beta testers. Tony Johnson and others laid out the evidence, opinions split on whether banning anyone was fair, and the thread later drifted into NASCAR 2's lack of arcade mode in multiplayer.
With Adam Levesque (Papyrus)
Automated summary.
you people SERIOUSLY need to get a life
etc.etc.
Quoted text (13 lines)
> you people SERIOUSLY need to get a life > > To: IVGA MEMBERSHIP > > From: Don Wilshe > > Subject: PAPYRUS advises Don Wilshe and the IVGA!!!! > > Members: > etc.etc.Well, Don, since you made this public, let's examine the evidence.
First, here is Dave Matson's e-mail to you:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Now, here's what you posted in reply on r.a.s.:
shooting through ***space:
Okay. Let me address this point by point.
A) DOUBLE STANDARD -- You accuse Papyrus of playing a double standard
by being "allowed to race," when Dave clearly states that Papyrus
employees directly involved with the "information" are not allowed to
compete. On the other hand, you have direct access to the
"information," and you compete freely. I am NOT accusing you of
cheating -- merely pointing out that the double standard appears to
be, in the context of these messages, in your camp.
B) SANCTIONING BODY vs. COMPETITOR -- Your goal has been to make the
IVGA the premier Internet racing league in the world, with the fastest
and "best" drivers around. With this in mind, you are clearly in an
administrative capacity. There should be a clear separation between
those who compile the results and those who generate them (i.e. the
drivers). It's akin to having Bill France and Gary Nelson owning and
operating a race team -- who would police the police? Again, this is
not an accusation, merely a philosophical point.
C) THE APPEARANCE OF EVIL -- If people don't like what they see, there
is little you can do to dissuade them from their opinions. For
example, if a guy was sitting at a table with a small mirror covered
in white powder and was sucking it up his nose, people would think,
"This guy's doing ***." It doesn't matter if the powder turned
out to be flour or something -- people took it as face value. Same
with your situation -- people see that you have codes to unlock other
people's setups. If you were in purely an administrative capacity,
there would be no problem -- but you continue to compete, which leads
people to think that you have an advantage.
Now look, Don, I've posted the above PURELY as a response to the
discrepancy I see in your complaint against Papyrus and their
response. No malice, no accusations. Just some common sense. I
suggest you sit down and consider Papyrus' viewpoint from somewhere
else than the IVGA director's chair.
Thanks,
Tony
--
SimRacing Online Webmaster
http://www.simracing.com/
Hawaii: IWCCCARS
Quoted text (22 lines)
> :>To: IVGA MEMBERSHIP > :> > :>From: Don Wilshe > :> > :>Subject: PAPYRUS advises Don Wilshe and the IVGA!!!! > :> > As everyone that monitors this newsgroup knows, there is absolutely no love > lost between me and Don. But I have to say that I don't care if Don races in > NRL. I can't admit to knowing exactly what has transpired between him and > Papyrus, but I don't see the pooint in banning him from competition. That > would be like telling Jeff Gordon that he can't run in Winston Cup next season > because he's too good a driver. > Again, I' not supporting Don specifically, but everybody's right to compete if > they fill out the form and pay their fee. > /===================================================\ > | John Simmons (Redneck Techno-Biker) | > | http://www2.connectnet.com/users/jms/index.html | > \===================================================/Agree, absolutely!To Julian Data, Julian I retract my appolgy in regards to
the setups being loaded to IVGA reps. Obviously, what I had
heard was correct. The fact that you asked those involved
if it was true on my behalf and they told you it was BS.
Obviously says very little about your relationship with them.
As you must have been mislead as well! The fact you indicated
that setups were being shared takes on new significance now!
Pete
Don Wilshe wrote:
...
read more »
Quoted text (230 lines)
> To: IVGA MEMBERSHIP > From: Don Wilshe > Subject: PAPYRUS advises Don Wilshe and the IVGA!!!! > Members: > As you know we here at the IVGA have written over 30,000 lines of C++ > code at our expense > in excess of $30,000. We did this provide integrity to off-line racing > and fastlapping > for Papyrus NASCAR and INDYCAR. We have over 600 people that use the > IVGA software and > we have never had any member accuse a member of cheating. We have > accomplished our goals. To > accomplish that goal we had to gather all the information to detect > CHEATING and prevent > it. > For you that have never read the IVGA OVERVIEW let me regress and lets > review it > and what it says..... > ======================================================================================= > IVGA OVERVIEW > "No Friends at 200MPH, Only Fans" > IVGA BRIEF: The IVGA is an organization that was founded on the premise > that video simulation gaming is a BRAINSPORT and recognizes that > individual > can THINK and REACT to the demands of computer simulations. We know it > takes > special mental skills to drive a virtual racing car and have yet to find > any real race car drivers that can run with INTERNETS best. The IVGA is > the > home of the very serious, hard-core and best drivers in the world. > Unlike > other INTERNET RACING SERIES, the IVGA is a commercial enterprise. We > use > advanced software technology to provide continuous integrity and > technical > inspection and monitoring of drivers while they are either RACING or > attempting for a world record FASTLAP. Our goal, like NASCAR, is to > eliminate HACKING by using special software during the entire racing > process. > We will look at and use every piece of information available to the IVGA > software to maintain integrity. When the NASCAR or INDYCAR software has > fixed it's problems we will delete this code from the IVGA software. > In our series we have no rules for cheating and we have no reprimands, > banishments, threats as its not possible as we monitor the events with > custom technical inspection software. > ==================================================================================== > In summary, Papyrus has recommended to me: > 1). I send out there information to all IVGA Members!!! > 2). That I suspend the entire IVGA staff from racing in the NRL > I am the only member that would be suspended as: > Joe Farr never had access to any information.... > Jim Jannseen only wrote the software and we have talked in 5 months as > he > is very busy at NETSCAPE.. > All other associate members like Josh Carr, Julain Data arent involved > in the > racing operation!!!!!!!!! > Once again we are telling all the members of the IVGA that we gather all > information > to insure racing integrity. But I and only me know the codes that > unlock that > information including setups. You can believe what you want but I have > never > found a setup in NASCAR fastlap results or race results that helped me > on HAWAII. > People wondered why I was so fast at Michigan and Atlanta.. I blistered > the field > with a setup that is 100% still what I use today and I got that from > Pekka Heino > who has shared his setups with everyone.. Ironically I use the same > setup at > Michigan and Atlanta.. As far as Taladega although I have received lots > and lots > of setps its simple.. 3.5 gear, 60 psi and 100% shocks... Actually the > World's > Greatest Talaedega driver .. Who used to race with us Charlie Mone gave > me that > setup. As far as the Setup for Charlotte I forget.. You see as the > President > of the IVGA I get lots and lots of setups.. I guess they feel that since > I am > in this position I should not do the NRL as I get to much information. > And course > thier are all the other tracks.. The Road Course.. I cant even get > around the > tracks. The 3/4 miles I am the worst.. The 1 miles.. Pretty sad there > as well.. > As you know I do not race the FASTLAP or the OFF-LINE racing... As I am > the chief > technical inspector and see all that information I could see a > conflict. > HAWAII vs NASCAR!!! > I really thought it was ok for me to run in the HAWAII beta testing as > the physics > engines for NASCAR vs. Multi are different. > Papyrus has asked me not to run in the NRL series, but I will let my > membership > determine that.. I want each of you to vote either that I can or I > cant.. I will > stand by your decision. If You want me to run, than the next decision > is whether > PAPYRUS and the NRL will allow me to run... As I stated along time > ago....... > "No Friends at 200mph, only Fans" > There is still a major problem and that is if I have all the information > and I cant > race than why can People who have the same information that work with > PAPYRUS be > allowed to race,.... I think they call this a DOUBLE STANDARD!! Or > could it be > away to eliminate a lot of strong competitions for thier BOYS!!!!!!!!! > In the > July 1996 newsletter from Ed Martin to all of us he told us that he > looks at > everything and has everything.. WHATS THE DIFF?????????????????????? > Sincerely, > Don Wilshe, IVGA > ==================================================================================== > On 18 Nov 96 10:29:55 Dave_Matson/[email hidden] wrote: > >Return-Path: <Dave_Matson/[email hidden]> > >Received: from nsx.papy.com ([199.103.241.73]) by rosie.scsn.net > > (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-13529) with SMTP id AAA150 > > for <[email hidden]>; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:38:05 -0500 > >Received: by nsx.papy.com (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.17/2.12um) id AA0761; Mon, 18 Nov 96 > 10:31:14 -0500 > >From: Dave_Matson/[email hidden] > >Message-Id: <[email hidden]> > >Received: by papyrus (Lotus Notes Mail Gateway for SMTP V1.1) id > > BF5C60AA364358ED852563E6005505C5; Mon, 18 Nov 96 10:31:14 > >To: [email hidden] > >Date: 18 Nov 96 10:29:55 > >Subject: Re: Slandering the IVGA and/or Don Wilshe > >Mime-Version: 1.0 > >Content-Type: Text/Plain > >Don, > >You have NOT clearly and definitively maintained the fact that you DO capture > >all setup information throughout our conversations here, which is why we have > >kept asking. These facts have not been made clear to all of your users, either. > >I want to see a huge disclaimer right up front on the fastlap software that > >says "By running this program we will have your full setup for analysis > >purposes." > >I also see a HUGE problem with this as it relates to the NRL. Since you now > >admit to having access to the fastest setups out of all of your 2600 members, > >isn't it obvious what a big advantage this would be online? You could look at > >anyone's fast setup, and figure out what combinations they are using, and > >either use it as is or take the ideas and modify them further to your own > >liking. I'm sure you will tell me you don't and wouldn't do this, and you know > >what Don? I might just believe you... but it doesn't matter! The appearance of > >any impropriety is enough to taint the whole process. I can tell you that I > >know with 100% certainty that Matt Sentell, Randy Cassidy, et. al, don't > >cheat, and have no advantage online over anyone else, and you may or may not bel > >ieve me, but some people would always wonder. For that reason, no > >Papyrus/Sierra Employee can participate in the NRL. For the same reason, I > >think all of the IVGA management and staff should disqualify itself from NRL > >participation. You can be a racing sanctioning body/management organization, or > >a racing participant, but you can't be both! > >Dave Matson > >Papyrus/Sierra On-Line > >To: Ed_Martin/Papyrus.PAPYRUS @ papy.com @ inet, dmatson @ papy.com @ inet > >cc: (bcc: Dave Matson/Papyrus) > >From: dwilshe @ ivga.com (Don Wilshe) @ inet > >Date: 11/15/96 09:56:06 AM > >Subject: Re: Slandering the IVGA and/or Don Wilshe > >Ed: > >Thanks for your note... I am saying yes now for about the 10th time. > >I was asked this question by NimC about a month ago, I told Dave we > >read the setups... > >Yes. We do as we need to validate that the setup's arent hacked and > >our users know this.... We have to do this as the NASCAR software > >doesnt properly check for limits.. We also conduct IROC races and > >we have to set the setup as you do with hawaii.... > >Don > >PS. Just like the Hawaii software we look and see everything.. > >Question.. Do you see anything wrong with doing this to insure that > >inegrity of the racing and fastlap events... > >I am the only one that see's this information and I do not participate in > >off-line racing or fastlaping.... > >On 15 Nov 96 9:32:33 Ed_Martin/[email hidden] wrote: > >>Return-Path: <Ed_Martin/[email hidden]> > >>Received: from nsx.papy.com ([199.103.241.73]) by rosie.scsn.net > >> (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-13529) with SMTP id AAA171 > >> for <[email hidden]>; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 09:43:14 -0500 > >>Received: by nsx.papy.com (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.17/2.12um) id AA9078; > >Fri, 15 Nov 96 > >09:36:04 -0500 > >>From: Ed_Martin/[email hidden] > >>Message-Id: <[email hidden]> > >>Received: by papyrus (Lotus Notes Mail Gateway for SMTP V1.1) idRelax Don, by the time the NRL actually gets started everyone will have
had ample time (a few months) to develop competitive setups.
--
Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences
Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/
:>To: IVGA MEMBERSHIP
:>
:>From: Don Wilshe
:>
:>Subject: PAPYRUS advises Don Wilshe and the IVGA!!!!
:>
As everyone that monitors this newsgroup knows, there is absolutely no love
lost between me and Don. But I have to say that I don't care if Don races in
NRL. I can't admit to knowing exactly what has transpired between him and
Papyrus, but I don't see the pooint in banning him from competition. That
would be like telling Jeff Gordon that he can't run in Winston Cup next season
because he's too good a driver.
Again, I' not supporting Don specifically, but everybody's right to compete if
they fill out the form and pay their fee.
/===================================================\
| John Simmons (Redneck Techno-Biker) |
| http://www2.connectnet.com/users/jms/index.html | \===================================================/
shooting through ***space:
Well, as a previous beta tester for Papyrus, let me explain a little
of the mindset behind having beta testers at all.
When I was beta-testing NASCAR 1 (I can tell you this because the NDA
should be over for it.. <G>), we only got builds once they had been
thoroughly tested by the Papyrus staff. For instance, if we had, say,
Beta 4, they would be on beta 9. We were basically the "last ditch
filter" to catch bugs and omissions in the software; occasionally, we
were allowed to pitch ideas for inclusion in the simulator to make it
more realistic. But anyone who has ever coded anything knows why they
need beta-testing -- because after spending so long with the software,
you need someone with a fresh viewpoint. And really that's all we
were (heaven knows we didn't catch all the bugs.. :-/)
As far as the NDA, Papyrus and other companies have features that are
not "secret" persay, but that they do not want released until they are
ready to do so. The NDA makes sure that Papyrus is the one who lets
people know about the new features in its software, and that the
software won't get out until Papyrus distributes it. Again, as beta
testers we did not get any "priviledged information" that enhanced or
detracted from our *** experience -- our function was to act as
"the general public" for feedback before the actual general release.
What good would a beta-tester be if he/she had information that gave
him/her an advantage over the rest of the target audience?
Trust me, at times on Hawaii I WISH I had been fed "tricks" from
Papyrus, especially in big points races... <G>
[SNIP]
You are correct -- the N2 beta testers will most likely have an
advantage because of the hours spent testing. However, as a former
beta tester, I can say I did not spend time trying to come up with
killer setups -- I spent time trying to break the simulator, which is
what Papyrus asked me to do. Yes, I had more hours on the tracks than
others. But they weren't in practice for quals or racing --
consequently, I am of the opinion that they did me no good at all in
regards to competition.
[SNIP]
I think Dave's point was mainly that MULTI 1.36 and NASCAR 1.21 have a
similar physics architecture. It's widely known that a standard
NASCAR setup, with a small cross-weight change, is portable to Hawaii.
That's the big issue right now. I don't see how either Papyrus or
IVGA can comment on NRL using NASCAR 2.0, since the product isn't even
released yet. As far as beta-testers for NRL, to my knowledge there
aren't any outside of Papyrus' Watertown, MA headquarters.
[SNIP]
I doubt it will. I think I needed those examples to clarify the
situation a bit.
--
SimRacing Online Webmaster
http://www.simracing.com/
Hawaii: IWCCCARS
Take two. (Sorry Tony)<G>
Well ladies and Gentlemen.
I had writen an earlier letter that I thought was going to be
posted. Instead Tony received and I think he figured I was attacking
him.
I am a Hawaii driver who runs in the Pro Hcs. Most of the drivers who
run in the Pro Hcs are beta testers or employees of Papyrus.
As far as advantages go, I think the only advantage the beta testers
get is time. Big deal. I over came that obstical once I could do it
again. I don't even care if Matt Sentell participated in the NRL.
I would never want to claim to be the best if I was only racing hand
picked oppenents. Thats a cheap victory.
You see I have spent the last 6 months busting my ***to be as good as
I can come race day. I stay up late at night, and work many hours on my
setups. I test and test and test more. I have spent over $2,500.00 in
phone bills competing and practicing so I would be sure to make the top
NRL
Now I find out that all this is for nothing. I am being told that by
the fact that I am associated with Don Wilshe and the IVGA, I will not
be able to compete in the NRL. I have never been a roll player in the
IVGA management. I have never had access to the software codes. I have
never taken any setups! I simply run AOL CSNC and had worked on the
developement of the Pro Wheel II. Oh ya. My name was on the web page.
Good reason to kick some one out of NRL!!
But I am glad this happened. I can now honestly say that I will totaly
be satisfied without running NRL. I would rather be a little fish in a
big pond than a big fish in a little pond. And at the rate this is
going NRL won't have much competition.
Good Luck
Alec A. Flory
Gentlemen: Nascar has more then one class. Locally we have a nascar 1/2
mile track that only local drivers run on. One of our local drivers even
went to the big leagues (Joe Frasson). I suggest you create a dozen or more
classes using whatever tracks you want and make the SIM-drivers work their
way to Grand National. Remember, there are no prizes, no money and no
trophies mailed to the winners (and hell, if I won my wife wouldn't even
kiss me let alone some babe in bathing suit). All you get is your name
posted on a bunch of servers, oh wow. There has to be rules but the rules
in real Nascar are for safety (like restrictor plates) and so far I haven't
80 degrees angle. Hell, your cars don't even roll over and they don't have
the air foils that are on the real cars to help prevent that. (I've never
seen them anyways.) Bottom line:
IT'S JUST A GAME SO CUT THIS "MY DAD CAN BEAT YOUR DAD" ***OUT!!!!
I totally agree that PAPYRUS is doing the right thing almost, except in
reference to beta testers.. Beta Testers have lots of advantages:
Don, this is a really crazy arguement. We use Beta testers because they
are an incredible help to us. They test early versions of the game to
give us good feedback. They test the game throughout its cycle and report
bugs which hopefully, we can all find before the game goes out on the
market. I can assure you, we do not pick Beta testers so they can have an
advantage in any racing series, and we don't have them sign an NDA so they
can withold important information from all of you (in order to have an
advantage).
They sign an NDA so we can protect our rights and property. We
couldn't do what we do without the Beta testers.
Now, in terms of the other stuff, I have no opinion since I know
nothing about it. Just wanted to clear that up about the Beta testers.
Adam
Papyrus
Quoted text (8 lines)
>1). Beta Testers received NASCAR 2 - months before the rest of us... >2). Beta Testers have Non-Disclosure Agreements in place.. What do > you think an NDA is except a exclusive channel for information > about NASCAR 2 that none of us get. I dont understand why beta > testers can learn all the bugs and fixes of a game and we never > do learn this.. There is a whole layer of information flow that > we dont have access to.....You know that and I know that.. I just wish that someone would post that
so everyone knew that....
PAPYRUS has already made thier decision and asked the IVGA and its staff
of 20 hard core multi 1.36 drivers not to participate.. If you dont see
your friends on NRL... You will know what happened to them...
As far as beta-testers for NRL, to my knowledge there
Sorry.... WRONG>.. They still have thier full set of beta testers
Rhawn Black, Nim Cross, etc ,etc. They are gaining knowledege and
we will be racing for money in the NRL and we are all setting in
the garage..... ITS AINT FAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> SimRacing Online Webmaster
> http://www.simracing.com/
> Hawaii: IWCCCARS
Quoted text (37 lines)
> Take two. (Sorry Tony)<G> > Well ladies and Gentlemen. > I had writen an earlier letter that I thought was going to be > posted. Instead Tony received and I think he figured I was attacking > him. > I am a Hawaii driver who runs in the Pro Hcs. Most of the drivers who > run in the Pro Hcs are beta testers or employees of Papyrus. > As far as advantages go, I think the only advantage the beta testers > get is time. Big deal. I over came that obstical once I could do it > again. I don't even care if Matt Sentell participated in the NRL. > I would never want to claim to be the best if I was only racing hand > picked oppenents. Thats a cheap victory. > You see I have spent the last 6 months busting my ***to be as good as > I can come race day. I stay up late at night, and work many hours on my > setups. I test and test and test more. I have spent over $2,500.00 in > phone bills competing and practicing so I would be sure to make the top > NRL > Now I find out that all this is for nothing. I am being told that by > the fact that I am associated with Don Wilshe and the IVGA, I will not > be able to compete in the NRL. I have never been a roll player in the > IVGA management. I have never had access to the software codes. I have > never taken any setups! I simply run AOL CSNC and had worked on the > developement of the Pro Wheel II. Oh ya. My name was on the web page. > Good reason to kick some one out of NRL!! > But I am glad this happened. I can now honestly say that I will totaly > be satisfied without running NRL. I would rather be a little fish in a > big pond than a big fish in a little pond. And at the rate this is > going NRL won't have much competition. > Good Luck > Alec A. Flory<clip>
<clip>
I think Dave is saying clearly that Papyrus employees will not be allowed
to compete in the NRL...
I wasn't aware that my setup information was available to you through the
fastlap program. Maybe you stated this somewhere and it's my fault for
not knowing it. It probably should have been made more clear.
As for IVGA staff being allowed to race in the NRL, maybe if you give all
of us _your_ setups, no one will mind :)
--
Pat Dotson
Quoted text (14 lines)
>>>Don, >>>I apreciate & understand your last note. However, let's get to the bottom >>line >>>question. Do you or do you not extract user setups in the IVGA software? >>>Please give me a simple direct answer to a simple direct question. >>>--ed. >>>>July 96 letter to all that you are looking at everything. We are looking at >>>everyhting >>>>as well.. I have 2600 users that dont have a problem with this.. I just have >>>a couple >>>>of non-ivga types that try and make an issue of out of this...through ***space:
<clap clap clap>
I nominate this post for Post of the Week!
--
SimRacing Online Webmaster
http://www.simracing.com/
Hawaii: IWCCCARS
Quoted text (14 lines)
>Gentlemen: Nascar has more then one class. Locally we have a nascar 1/2 >mile track that only local drivers run on. One of our local drivers even >went to the big leagues (Joe Frasson). I suggest you create a dozen or more >classes using whatever tracks you want and make the SIM-drivers work their >way to Grand National. Remember, there are no prizes, no money and no >trophies mailed to the winners (and hell, if I won my wife wouldn't even >kiss me let alone some babe in bathing suit). All you get is your name >posted on a bunch of servers, oh wow. There has to be rules but the rules >in real Nascar are for safety (like restrictor plates) and so far I haven't >80 degrees angle. Hell, your cars don't even roll over and they don't have >the air foils that are on the real cars to help prevent that. (I've never >seen them anyways.) Bottom line: >IT'S JUST A GAME SO CUT THIS "MY DAD CAN BEAT YOUR DAD" ***OUT!!!!Pat:
Joe Farr took the best setups he had that were the best of all the
fastlap drivers and posted them in the IVGA Publications Section.
All the other FASTLAP drivers could not beat Joe, Joe put his
NASCAR 1.21 setups up.. What more can we do,.,,
Don
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > you people SERIOUSLY need to get a life > > > To: IVGA MEMBERSHIP > > > From: Don Wilshe > > > Subject: PAPYRUS advises Don Wilshe and the IVGA!!!!You are right. I forgot about the differences between 1.21 and Multi.
The setups for each are quite a bit different so there shouldn't be
any problem with you racing in the NRL...
I don't agree with this. From what I understand, the handling in Multi is
the same (or nearly so) as the handling in Nascar 2. All of the setups
we've developed for Multi should still apply to Nascar 2. Even if this
weren't the case, someone still had to test the program and I don't think
it's unfair.
--
Pat Dotson
Quoted text (22 lines)
>> :>To: IVGA MEMBERSHIP >> :> >> :>From: Don Wilshe >> :> >> :>Subject: PAPYRUS advises Don Wilshe and the IVGA!!!! >> :> >> As everyone that monitors this newsgroup knows, there is absolutely no love >> lost between me and Don. But I have to say that I don't care if Don races in >> NRL. I can't admit to knowing exactly what has transpired between him and >> Papyrus, but I don't see the pooint in banning him from competition. That >> would be like telling Jeff Gordon that he can't run in Winston Cup next season >> because he's too good a driver. >> Again, I' not supporting Don specifically, but everybody's right to compete if >> they fill out the form and pay their fee. >> /===================================================\ >> | John Simmons (Redneck Techno-Biker) | >> | http://www2.connectnet.com/users/jms/index.html | >> \===================================================/Agree, absolutely!Quoted text (14 lines)
> shooting through ***space: > >> As far as beta-testers for NRL, to my knowledge there > >> aren't any outside of Papyrus' Watertown, MA headquarters. > >Sorry.... WRONG>.. They still have thier full set of beta testers > >Rhawn Black, Nim Cross, etc ,etc. They are gaining knowledege and > >we will be racing for money in the NRL and we are all setting in > >the garage..... ITS AINT FAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!! > Don -- > I've tried to be fair and even-handed about this, but WHAT THE HECK > ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!?> > As for IVGA staff being allowed to race in the NRL, maybe if you give all
> > of us _your_ setups, no one will mind :)
So Don can't play but everyone to whom he makes the setups available
can? This has to be the most stupid decision I have ever heard of. Whats
the point of making totally unenforcable rules? Stupid. Stupid.
--
Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA
And just how can they stop them? Can they somehow always identify
everyone calling in to race? I think not.
<snippage>
OOPS! Chuck, It is their network, their computers, their software, they
can refuse service to anyone, anytime, for any reason or for no reason at all.
Same as the sign behind the bartender at most bars.
I do agree with you tho', if everything is kept fair and they police
the rules. I have no problem with these guys racing.
Have Fun!
Ralph<Ralphw on Hawaii>Williams
/----------------------------------------------------------------------\
/Ralph Williams My real .sig file is in the shop getting repaired.\
/----------------------------------------------------------------------\
shooting through ***space:
Don --
I've tried to be fair and even-handed about this, but WHAT THE HECK
ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!?
A) Beta testers -- how would you KNOW if the beta testers were testing
NRL or not? They are under non-disclosure. That means that if they
WERE testing NRL, then they wouldn't tell you anyway. If they did,
they'd be violating their compact with Papyrus. Unless you are a
tester yourself, you cannot say if the EXTERNAL beta-testers are even
touching NRL at all.
B) Racing for money -- Where the heck did you get that idea? Not a
single post by ANYONE at Papyrus OR NASCAR intimated a single thing
about money or prizes being doled out through NRL. You know why?
Because of this VERY ISSUE!! Heck, with all the ***flowing around
here about cheating and all in a FREE atmosphere, imagine what it
would be if there was money or prizes on the line!
C) The "Factory Team" -- Ludicrous as this idea is, let's consider it
seriously. Say you're the president of Papyrus. You are creating a
racing league for the patrons of your racing simulator. You know for
a fact that money will not be involved as prizes. You also know that
the way to keep clients is to make sure they are happy with their
experience and have the ability to compete fairly and equally with
everyone else who has the simulator. Would YOU create a "factory
team" to dominate NRL? I didn't think so.
Don, you and a lot of people are seeing NRL and NASCAR 2 in a
microcosm. Compared to the entire customer base of Papyrus,
rec.autos.simulators and the Internet racing leagues are a mere
fraction. The fact that Papyrus pays so much attention to us in
***space is an indicator of their dedication to creating a good sim
experience for everyone. I have talked with Jane, Ed, and Adam at
length about this, and you can't find a less biased group of people
when it comes to other people's racing interests.
Think about it, Don. Try putting yourself in their shoes. What would
YOU do in this situation if you were them?
--
SimRacing Online Webmaster
http://www.simracing.com/
Hawaii: IWCCCARS
:>
:>>>
:>>> :>To: IVGA MEMBERSHIP
:>>> :>
:>>> :>From: Don Wilshe
:>>> :>
:>>> :>Subject: PAPYRUS advises Don Wilshe and the IVGA!!!!
:>>> :>
:>>>
:>>> As everyone that monitors this newsgroup knows, there is absolutely no love
:>>> lost between me and Don. But I have to say that I don't care if Don races
:>>> in NRL.
:>>>
:>>> Again, I' not supporting Don specifically, but everybody's right to compete
:>>> if they fill out the form and pay their fee.
:>>>
:>
:>If the goal of simulations is to be as realistic as possible we should
:>examine where we are in relation to the real Nascar, verses Nascar2.
:>In Nascar the playing field is constantly monitored to keep things
:>competative and even. Look at what they have done to keep Ford and
:>Chevy balanced, along with Pontiac.
:>
:>If one manufacturer gets an unfair advantage over another, measures
:>are taken to balance the field.
:>In light of this I say that somene who is getting setup information
:>that everyone else is not, has an unfair advantage and measures should
:>be taken to balance the level of competion. What these measures are
:>are being determined by whoever runs the show. The decisions made by
:>Papyrus seem to be thought out and reached with the knowledge that you
:>can't please everybody. The majority is in their formost
:>consideration.
:>
You're talking about evening the playing field, and Papy can't hope to do
that successfully for the following reasons:
a) Some guys have fantastic hardware at their *** disposal. Pentium
200's with Verite video cards, 48mb of ram, and top-notch wheel-pedal
setups spell *** hardware. What is Papy gonna do - ban
anyone from racing who uses anything better than a Pentuium 75? I
don't think so...
b) Some people just plain have more time to practice.
c) Some people have a natural grasp of car-handling physics. Most don't.
I think their efforts in this area are pure and total bullshit. Like I said
before, if the guy fills out the form and pays his fees, he should be allowed
to race. Of course, cheating would not be tolerated, but that's another
thread...
/===================================================\
| John Simmons (Redneck Techno-Biker) |
| http://www2.connectnet.com/users/jms/index.html | \===================================================/
I request from here on out My name is not envolved in any of this crap.
I have not been kicked out of the NRL yet. But with all this going on
and all the bull whats the point. I don't even feel like racing
anymore.
So PLEASE don't include me in any of your arguments. Please give me
that much respect. PLEASE.
Let me rest in peace.
Alec
Quoted text (23 lines)
>> shooting through ***space: >> >> As far as beta-testers for NRL, to my knowledge there >> >> aren't any outside of Papyrus' Watertown, MA headquarters. >> >Sorry.... WRONG>.. They still have thier full set of beta testers >> >Rhawn Black, Nim Cross, etc ,etc. They are gaining knowledege and >> >we will be racing for money in the NRL and we are all setting in >> >the garage..... ITS AINT FAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!! >> Don -- >> I've tried to be fair and even-handed about this, but WHAT THE HECK >> ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!? >I was talking about NASCAR 2.0 >> A) Beta testers -- how would you KNOW if the beta testers were testing >> NRL or not? They are under non-disclosure. That means that if they >> WERE testing NRL, then they wouldn't tell you anyway. If they did, >> they'd be violating their compact with Papyrus. Unless you are a >> tester yourself, you cannot say if the EXTERNAL beta-testers are even >> touching NRL at all. >I was talking about Nascar 2.0I musta missed a post somewhere as I'm totally lost here. Would someone be kind
enough to fill me in as to what in the world is going on here?
Brian Kinkaid
bnk29 on Hawaii
you know if anybody cares.
Well, I'm bored so I'll comment. It seems to me that the people at papyrus
will probably be a little too busy to sit around and dominate the NRL for
the next several years. Banning Don and the others is useless, but the
above is starting to sound a little paranoid. Even with the best setups
for an outdated game, you will still need to take the best line, and
reproduce that line around the track for thousands of laps to dominate the
NRL.
I've used some of his setups, but I still suck at certain tracks. Why
would I use an old setup for a completely new game anyway.
This reminds me of the scare tactics certain politicians use. I'm sure
Papyrus will do the right thing.
--
Brian Fox
The Fox Den: Nascar and ICR2
http://www.4w.com/pages/fox AND/OR
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/1238
When I die, I want to go peacefully, like my grandfather in his sleep,
not screaming like the other passengers in his car.
>> > you people SERIOUSLY need to get a life
I second that! Don is a great guy and has put forth a LOT of work
in helping others. If he was only out to cheat and steal, he wouldn't
be doing the helping things he does now. Come on people......this is
really sad..
--
Lannie Schafroth
Quoted text (22 lines)
>>> > you people SERIOUSLY need to get a life >>> > > To: IVGA MEMBERSHIP >>> > > From: Don Wilshe >>> > > Subject: PAPYRUS advises Don Wilshe and the IVGA!!!! >>This is stupid. Let Don race. Let the Papy programmers race. If no one >>is cheating what difference does it make? You can have the greatest >>setups going and still not be able to drive worth spit. I'm not sure >>-- >>Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA > I second that! Don is a great guy and has put forth a LOT of work >in helping others. If he was only out to cheat and steal, he wouldn't >be doing the helping things he does now. Come on people......this is >really sad.. >-- >Lannie SchafrothTEAM can dominate the NRL. >>
Don, since Papyrus employees cannot participate in the IRL, why do you say
this?
Randy
writes
That may be true Chuck, but others might and it is THEIR setups as well
as yours which are in question. I have no problem with anyone racing
anywhere, but if I know your setup and you don't know mine, you must
agree that gives me the advantage.
Okay, maybe the setup will NOT be looked at, but how will you feel when
I not only beat you, but I beat you by a big margin? Will you accept
that it was just my driving? I'm not aiming this at you, I'm sure that
you are a gent on the track, but there are many who would instantly
accuse me of cheating and I personally wouldn't want to give people any
chance to say I was cheating. I know I'm not, but I'd want to make sure
others couldn't accuse me of it either.
Cheers!
John
_________________________________
__ _____| |_____ __
________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |________
\ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | /
> :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____/ * Sim Racing News * \____|::|__| \
/______:/ \::/ http://sneezy.dcn.ed.ac.uk/simnews/index.htm \::/ \._____\
http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/~harmon/simnews
> >Sorry.... WRONG>.. They still have thier full set of beta testers
> >Rhawn Black, Nim Cross, etc ,etc. They are gaining knowledege and
> >we will be racing for money in the NRL and we are all setting in
> >the garage..... ITS AINT FAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Don --
Don, if this was true I'm confused, because in all of the six months I
was a closed tester on hawaii, I had quite a headstart on everyone,
now that it's gone open, within 3- 4 months, there are guys who can
flat out cream everyone on the track (speed wise), including some of
the testers who you listed above, and some of those testers have been
on the service for over 2 years. So if it's true that there is such a
huge advantage in the beta testers getting more seat time, then why
can your own Alec Flory beat a lot of the testers within such a short
time of hawaii going to open beta? Maybe it's skill and dilligence,
not beta testing?
In both cases you stated NRL, not Nascar 2. Since that's like
comparing Nascar 1 offline to Hawaii, and since they are entirely
different, you should have been a lot clearer.
From what I remember from a post a loonnnngg time ago (and I hope I
remember this correctly) the NRL is the Nascar sanctioned league, so
Papy doesn't want you running in that, due to the fact they feel like
you have to much info. From what I understand from all I've read
here, that doesn't keep you from running pickup races, or running IVGA
leagues, it just keep you from running in the Sanctioned Nascar
events. That's if I've got this straight :).
Don,
Listen, in my own personal opinion, you should have had a big fat
notice on the IVGA page stating that when people do the fastlap
program, and turn in the results, they are handing over their setup to
you. Whether you intended to use the setups for your own gain or not,
I don't know, and don't care, but after hearing post after post on
this newsgroup and elsewhere about cheating, and such, and seeing the
IVGA name involved through members of your organization, well I'll be
quite honest and say I'm quite leery of the organization. I've seen
you put a spin on quite a few posts, turning things as much as
possible to your favor, and I feel that you are twisting this away
from you, and onto Papy and the NRL to keep people from focusing on
the fact that you've manufactured a program that allows you to get and
use a persons setup without telling them, then announcing to the world
that if a racing league or person doesn't use the software, their
speeds aren't legit, or they're cheating. This just all leaves a very
bad taste in my mouth. YUCK :(.
I'm not trying to attack you Don, or the members of your organization,
many of whom I know and consider friends, I'm just stating how it
appears to me from the outside, reading usenet and talking to people
through e-mail. Take it as you will :).
--
Hawaii Ace League - http://www.dithots.org/hal/welcome.shtml
Closed Beta Tester Hawaii Network - bsimpson online
"It's Always Darkest before it goes totally Black"
Did anybody see these? I didnt and am curious if there
is rear wheel camber and less than 1 gallon of gas in
the setups for qual??..
Randy
> The Big difference is that our information deals with NASCAR 1.21
> as we have no information on MULTI 1.36 and this whole NRL deal
> is based on NASCAR 2.0. Once Again I dont have NASCAR 2.0 and my
> setups that are useless on MULTI 1.36 are from NASCAR 1.21..
> What does NASCAR 1.21 have to do with NASCAR 2.0.
Don
you really should think before you type this stuff up. Whatever
advantage it did or didn't cause, Joe Farr was an early Hawaii beta
testor. He signed the NDA, he revcieved the same infor the rest of us
did on Multi, and after his illness, I personnally continued to tell him
details of bugs and changes.
Now I'm sure Papyrus knows Joe was a beta testor and we know from your
previous message that he's on the board of IVGA so I think you do have
info on MULTI.
Steve Edwards
STEVE on Hawaii
#7 Hawaii Ace League
Quoted text (21 lines)
> > The Big difference is that our information deals with NASCAR 1.21 > > as we have no information on MULTI 1.36 and this whole NRL deal > > is based on NASCAR 2.0. Once Again I dont have NASCAR 2.0 and my > > setups that are useless on MULTI 1.36 are from NASCAR 1.21.. > > What does NASCAR 1.21 have to do with NASCAR 2.0. > Don > you really should think before you type this stuff up. Whatever > advantage it did or didn't cause, Joe Farr was an early Hawaii beta > testor. He signed the NDA, he revcieved the same infor the rest of us > did on Multi, and after his illness, I personnally continued to tell him > details of bugs and changes. > Now I'm sure Papyrus knows Joe was a beta testor and we know from your > previous message that he's on the board of IVGA so I think you do have > info on MULTI. > Steve Edwards > STEVE on Hawaii > #7 Hawaii Ace LeagueHow would you knowing my setup give you any advantage over me in a race?
But how would keeping the IVGA people out of the NRL in any way affect
whether I thought you were cheating?
Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA
Quoted text (30 lines)
> >Pat: > >Joe Farr took the best setups he had that were the best of all the > >fastlap drivers and posted them in the IVGA Publications Section. > >All the other FASTLAP drivers could not beat Joe, Joe put his > >NASCAR 1.21 setups up.. What more can we do,.,, > >Don > >Did anybody see these? I didnt and am curious if there > >is rear wheel camber and less than 1 gallon of gas in > >the setups for qual??.. > > Randy > These are not .stg files to download. Setup info is in text form. > I tried a few of them offline. Using Joe's setups, or whoever's, WILL > NOT make someone an overnight success. It's a good starting point, > but you need to tailor it to your driving style. > So here's my question for this thread: How much of an advantage would > a drive have if he/she knew your setup? If you know the setup of the > fastest driver in any given race, use that exact one, would you be able > to qualify and run just as fast? > Don Turcotte > Hawaii:DonT > MIT Lincoln LabsThese are not .stg files to download. Setup info is in text form.
I tried a few of them offline. Using Joe's setups, or whoever's, WILL
NOT make someone an overnight success. It's a good starting point,
but you need to tailor it to your driving style.
So here's my question for this thread: How much of an advantage would
a drive have if he/she knew your setup? If you know the setup of the
fastest driver in any given race, use that exact one, would you be able
to qualify and run just as fast?
Don Turcotte
Hawaii:DonT
MIT Lincoln Labs
If you worked for Papyrus (a dream job), would you risk being fired just
to race? I suppose they (Papyrus empoyees) might be able to get away
with it but with a company policy forbidding it it doesn't seem likely
that they would take the risk. I wouldn't.
Later,
Pat Dotson
from members that are trying to get faster. Most of the time I can take
thier setups and get 2 or 3 mph faster.. Its a combination of things.
HARDWARE and DRiving line...
In other words, you freely admit that you are taking IVGA members' setups
and using them for your own personal use, above and beyond hotlap
verification. How many of these IVGA members knew beforehand that you
were going to do this?
Randy
Quoted text (9 lines)
>These are not .stg files to download. Setup info is in text form. >I tried a few of them offline. Using Joe's setups, or whoever's, WILL >NOT make someone an overnight success. It's a good starting point, >but you need to tailor it to your driving style. >So here's my question for this thread: How much of an advantage would >a drive have if he/she knew your setup? If you know the setup of the >fastest driver in any given race, use that exact one, would you be able >to qualify and run just as fast?Quoted text (9 lines)
>>> As the Head of the IVGA with over 2600 Members I get lots of setups >from members that are trying to get faster. Most of the time I can take >thier setups and get 2 or 3 mph faster.. Its a combination of things. >HARDWARE and DRiving line... >In other words, you freely admit that you are taking IVGA members' setups >and using them for your own personal use, above and beyond hotlap >verification. How many of these IVGA members knew beforehand that you >were going to do this?Quoted text (11 lines)
> >> As the Head of the IVGA with over 2600 Members I get lots of setups > from members that are trying to get faster. Most of the time I can take > thier setups and get 2 or 3 mph faster.. Its a combination of things. > HARDWARE and DRiving line... > In other words, you freely admit that you are taking IVGA members' setups > and using them for your own personal use, above and beyond hotlap > verification. How many of these IVGA members knew beforehand that you > were going to do this? > RandyQuoted text (22 lines)
> >> > you people SERIOUSLY need to get a life > >> > > To: IVGA MEMBERSHIP > >> > > From: Don Wilshe > >> > > Subject: PAPYRUS advises Don Wilshe and the IVGA!!!! > >This is stupid. Let Don race. Let the Papy programmers race. If no one > >is cheating what difference does it make? You can have the greatest > >setups going and still not be able to drive worth spit. I'm not sure > >-- > >Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA > I second that! Don is a great guy and has put forth a LOT of work > in helping others. If he was only out to cheat and steal, he wouldn't > be doing the helping things he does now. Come on people......this is > really sad.. > -- > Lannie Schafrothi wonder who u blistered at mis and atl
i have been driving on hawaii since sept 15 96 and who is on top of the
qual board
u have done a 196? at mis or 190s at atl
can u guess who i am?
: i wonder who u blistered at mis and atl
: i have been driving on hawaii since sept 15 96 and who is on top of the
: qual board
: u have done a 196? at mis or 190s at atl
: can u guess who i am?
Obviously someone with poor grammer, punctuation, & capitilization skills.
Don,
I respect what the IVGA has seemingly stood for. You gave guys a chance to
compete against other drivers in a controlled environment before Hawaii was
available. I don't know about the Fastlap program other than what's been
discussed here. It does appear that it was not made clear that IVGA would
have access to the driver's setups. You say you're the only one that's ever
had access to the Fastlap driver's setups. Whether it's true or not doesn't
mattter. Many people aren't going to believe it.
I am disturbed by the fact the quotes from Ed Martin and Dave Matson in your
post look like PRIVATE EMAILS from Papyrus to you. Correct me if I'm wrong,
but it appears that you have broken a BASIC UseNet Etiquette rule by posting
Papyrus's PRIVATE EMAILS on the Net for the world to see. I realize this is
not a major crime and hope that it's not an indicator of how you treat other
people's private data. Actually, I'm glad you did. Now we can see that
Papyrus was being reasonable and have very valid concerns. You can't deny
that there is a huge conflict of interest when the management/staff
of an organization have access to 600-2600 of, as you say, the best drivers
in the world's setups and then decide they want to go racing on a new league
where fairness is an obssesion of it's creators.
I think this thread should have been worked out in private. I'm
absulotely sure things would have worked out much better for you.
Good Luck,
Mike Radler
Well Don, you must have a lot of problems. It would be a honor for me to
race against Ripp, Nim etc. etc. !
Georg
Man am I glad we at NCAR didnt use your software.
FWIW The competition on SprtSims still works quite good without any of
your software.
Georg
Hi Don,
You are joking, arent you ? If not I must say yeah Don, you are the man
!!!
And you even publicity state that you tested the setups your software
gathered for you. Very nice.
Georg
Quoted text (15 lines)
> Hi Don, > >As the Head of the IVAG with over 2600 Members I get lots of setups from > >members that are trying to get faster. Most of the time I can take > >thier > >setups and get 2 or 3 mph faster.. Its a combination of things. > >HARDWARE and DRiving line... > You are joking, arent you ? If not I must say yeah Don, you are the man > !!! > And you even publicity state that you tested the setups your software > gathered for you. Very nice. > Georg> Well, stupid or not, what Papyrus/Sierra does and what their policies
> are is their business. They have all the legal right in the world,
I fully agree. Papyrus has reasons for their actions that may not be
apparent to everyone. These decisions are not made without being well
thought out and are intended to make the NRL the best it can be.
--
Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA
Hi Georg,
Also a pleasure for me when every you and I meet on the track.:)
Thanks,
Nim
Hi Mike,
Yes, possible that I interpreted to much in his statement. My apologies to
Don if I misinterpreted him.
It should be clear to everybody that no cheat-protection program is 100%
save.
Georg
Hi Nim,
Well, if it wouldnt ruin my bank account we would do it more often. But
the next time we must make sure Darin isnt in our mirror. <g>
Georg
So you're saying you did frequently experiment with other peoples set-ups?
Quoted text (14 lines)
>> >> As the Head of the IVGA with over 2600 Members I get lots of setups >> from members that are trying to get faster. Most of the time I can take >> thier setups and get 2 or 3 mph faster.. Its a combination of things. >> HARDWARE and DRiving line... >> In other words, you freely admit that you are taking IVGA members' setups >> and using them for your own personal use, above and beyond hotlap >> verification. How many of these IVGA members knew beforehand that you >> were going to do this? >> Randy >If you don't want people to use your setups, don't post them. >If you decide to post them, why, if not for others to try them out ? >Besides, driving line is a major factor.I guess I did. Sorry about this. Though I don't see any big deal in
others having access to setups, other than maybe an ethical point of not
disclosing the fact that setups could be extracted.
Would you have posted your hot laps had this been disclosed ?
I guess most people would have anyway.
I'm more familiar with GP2 setups, and I've tried many, and usually I
come nowhere near the times achieved by the posting player, and my times
are slower than with my own setup.
I tinker with these setups, and usually wind up with a setup that's
close to what I developped on my own, so other's setups are of limited
use, IMHO, unless you have big problems somewhere.
I find watching a replay of the hotlap in chase view much more
informative. What the ultimate utility would be, IMO, is to be able to
view a hot lap in***pit view, or chase view, with digital values of
throttle, brake, steering, and gear, in other words, all the drivers
input, displayed in the corner of the screen somewhere.
This would be great.
I'm sure it could be done in GP2 because you can extract performance
analysis data from a hotlap. All that would be needed is to show this
data, while the replay is going on. I'm not sure this could be achieved
in Nascar2.
I wonder how many people would post hotlaps if such a utility existed.
Thanks
Guy Brosseau
Sadly I think I found a bug. (THIS HAPPENS IN ALL VERSIONS SVGA AND
VERITE)
Have you tried this. In a single player game, you get your car all
setup perfectly for the track. Will use Michigan.
Now later you go into a Multiplayer game use the setup you saved on
Michigan of course. Everything in the garage is just right. But now you
go out to practice, qualify or race and you find that your setup is
garbage. The car simply won't handle well at all.
Currently I'm getting a .03 latency on my home network so that
shouldn't be a problem. I did not have this problem with Nascar 1. Now
if I can setup my car from that point, well then I'll just save a
single player setup and a mulitplayer setup. Just isn't quite right and
sounds like a quick bug Papyrus could fix. Help!!!
Other problems I've experienced is one system refuses to accept a
joystick for this game and I'm clueless on this one. Basically every
system is the same. Stick works like a charm on every other product I
have. Does anybody else find it strange that everytime you go to
calibrate your controller it always seems to be way out of it? Also the
menus for setting up a player and mostly in general are slow and
intuitive, but I can manage through them, I think, haven't done
everything yet.
Also you can use 1 copy of Nascar 2 in a home network enviroment. Thans
Papyrus for this. It's most excellent to see most companies take this
approach. Otherwise this nice little network I have going would be all
for naught.
Q.B.M.
Followup to the BUG.
Well it's not a bug. It's Worse than that!
What Papyrus has done was think to much here. They decided that with
all the options they give you, that they'll leave out one and wouldn't
ya know it, it's the most important one for me.
You see in Multiplayer mode you can't drive in Arcade Mode. The only
allow Realisitc, thier version of twisted reality.
So that's why my car is on bannana skids in multiplayer mode, just like
ICR 2, my only gripe with that game. Boy and to think how I praised it
in pc.video folder about how this game is a joy to control close to
Voodoo Whiplash. Well it does in single player arcade but single player
for me is for testing only.
Why? I ask myself. For some reason they feel their realistic is
realistic. Well realisitically me nor you should even be running in an
Nascar event so why even make the game? Point is I want a fun game you
can get right into, bring in newbies so they can have fun right away in
a mulitplayer enviroment. Even with arcade you could still get to
adjust your car (and pit, ect.) so it's still a sim in almost every
other software companies eyes. In arcade mode the replay's looked
realistically sane, in realisitc mode the replays make one look like
they had one to many pints of Jack.
Please Papyrus (understand), put Arcade Mode into multiplayer, it's
your only chance to satisfy this customer and I doubt I'm all alone
either. I really believe your arcade option was the biggest advancement
over the orignal, I don't have any fun being out of control. I want to
have fun out there racing, which by your Arcade Mode definition in the
manual makes for a better video *** experince anyways. Also your
chase views in this game are awesome in traffic.
I know you'll be reading this, please e-mail me to let me know if your
gonna do it and how quick. As it stands the program is gonna be
returned on Monday if I get no word. You spoiled me with arcade mode,
and can't go back, friends are spoiled too. I'll be waiting to hear
from you.
Thanks.
Q.B.M.
I agree with you that the arcade mode should be available in
multiplayer modes for those that want it, but I don't agree with you on
your view of the 'realistic' version. Of course none of us can ever
hope to hop in a Winston Cup car and turn some 190mph laps inches from
another car. This game gives us that chance, especially one the fully
sanctioned 13th division of Nascar starts (the 2nd generation of the
current Hawaii multiplayer service). Nascar2 was designed with the
help of Bobby Labonte to be as realistic as possible, and he feels that
it is a very good simulation of the real racing experience. You car
being on banana skids is how it is, you can't drive a Nascar/Indycar
like an arcade driving game. It takes lots of time and practice to
develop both a setup and driving line/style that work together. Some
don't want to do this, thus the arcade mode was developed.
--
Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences
Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/
Quoted text (31 lines)
> I agree with you that the arcade mode should be available in > multiplayer modes for those that want it, but I don't agree with you on > your view of the 'realistic' version. Of course none of us can ever > hope to hop in a Winston Cup car and turn some 190mph laps inches from > another car. This game gives us that chance, especially one the fully > sanctioned 13th division of Nascar starts (the 2nd generation of the > current Hawaii multiplayer service). Nascar2 was designed with the > help of Bobby Labonte to be as realistic as possible, and he feels that > it is a very good simulation of the real racing experience. You car > being on banana skids is how it is, you can't drive a Nascar/Indycar > like an arcade driving game. It takes lots of time and practice to > develop both a setup and driving line/style that work together. Some > don't want to do this, thus the arcade mode was developed. > -- > Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences > Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ > > So that's why my car is on bannana skids in multiplayer mode, just > like > > ICR 2, my only gripe with that game. > > Why? I ask myself. For some reason they feel their realistic is > > realistic. Well realisitically me nor you should even be running in > an > > Nascar event so why even make the game?That's exactly what he wanted to do, but apparently it is not possible.
--
Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences
Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/
Quoted text (45 lines)
>>>> I agree with you that the arcade mode should be available in >>>> multiplayer modes for those that want it, but I don't agree with you on >>>> your view of the 'realistic' version. Of course none of us can ever >>>> hope to hop in a Winston Cup car and turn some 190mph laps inches from >>>> another car. This game gives us that chance, especially one the fully >>>> sanctioned 13th division of Nascar starts (the 2nd generation of the >>>> current Hawaii multiplayer service). Nascar2 was designed with the >>>> help of Bobby Labonte to be as realistic as possible, and he feels that >>>> it is a very good simulation of the real racing experience. You car >>>> being on banana skids is how it is, you can't drive a Nascar/Indycar >>>> like an arcade driving game. It takes lots of time and practice to >>>> develop both a setup and driving line/style that work together. Some >>>> don't want to do this, thus the arcade mode was developed. >>>> -- >>>> Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences >>>> Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ >>>> > So that's why my car is on bannana skids in multiplayer mode, just >>>> like >>>> > ICR 2, my only gripe with that game. >>>> > Why? I ask myself. For some reason they feel their realistic is >>>> > realistic. Well realisitically me nor you should even be running in >>>> an >>>> > Nascar event so why even make the game? >>>Man I couldn't disagree more. My main reason for buying NCR2 is going to >>>be Network racing. Now the last thing I want is to get waxed by somebody >>>racing in Arcade mode. >>>Now if you just want them to set it uo so that you and your friends can >>>race each other in easy mode, fine. But the thrill of multiplayer racing >>>is going up against real people, and putting all your skill on the line. >>>It only works if it's equally difficult for everybody. >>>Beyond that, if you do enough racing to actually beat people, you get >>>pretty good. The game would quickly get boring if it wasn't as realistic >>>as possible. That's what makes it racing. >>>Just my $0.02, >>>Ed BensonREPLY:
Oh I agree you need an even playing field no question. I never want to take options
away. Give everyone full blown slip n slide Nascar, no problem. Still scratch my
head though, you guys make it sound like this arcade mode is like Daytona or
somethin, it's not.
REPLY:
Your statement is all about time to get good. Fine again I want that mode to. But
please I hope people can understand it's quite fun to have people over for an
evening and give them the controls and they can take part in a Nascar fantasy as
well in a more controllable enviroment. They can't take the time to get efficient in
regular mode. See now Whiplah on the voodoo is purley an arcade game, but it never
gets dull with humans racing one another, there's always good competition, it
doesn't get boring. Nascar though could again bring players into a
little nascar fantasy world, they relate to Nascar and the drivers and
the cars, that's neat in it's way as well.
It seems like I'm stuck in a vortex. Daytona players like Daytona and
feel Nascar is boring and to complex. Nascar people feel Daytona lacks
stradegy and depth. What I think would be nice is to see a real true
mix of both. The so-called arcade mode in Nascar 2 is the closets this
reality has gotten, but only 1 player. Thinking about this I'm not sure
if it would e*** the true simmer but I'm sure the arcader wants more
but they want more without geting frustrating. They want a deep game
that's easy to use, actually that's what I want in every game. Easy to
use but deep, I'll grant yuou a tough combo to pull off, but it has
been done. Vision is important.
If anybody can tell I'm wanting N2 to succeed in my library. I spent 8
hours with it just trying to figure out what I really can and can't do.
Been sorta trying, and ultimately I'm bummed a bit, seems like I keep
finding another thing that should be there but for whatever reason
isn't. A'm I really off the deep end?
Oh the next thing I'm asking for (next version) is split screen
multiplayer, why not? With two systems you can have for and so on and
so on. And with racing games the more the merry'er if it's not one
wreck and out.
Q.B.M.
>That's exactly what he wanted to do, but apparently it is not possible.
REPLY:
YEP!!!
Recently I've invested some money in a new home netwrok. I have 4 pc's all
maxxed with 3d capabilites. The time I felt was right. The software is of very
high quality, companies are bigtime into multiplayer now and are supporting 1
cd for the networks. Thanks again to all companies who support these features,
without that my enjoyment would be less.
I also find more and more people with two pc's and some with three and
occansionally more. So this isn't as odd as some may think.
But if you could consider what it takes to support 4 systems.
When I get something new, you have to install 4 times. Make sure everything
works right on the 4 systems. Setup a complex controller for each. Print out
how the controller is mapped for each system. This is the easier stuff.
The hardest part is the people. You have people over, well attention isn't
always that good. They want to play but they like to talk about everything
else as well. You hope that when you press the icon the controller configs
just right, the program starts and the network isn't hung. Any one thing wrong
and you have a real headache. People become impatient for unkown reasons,
people ask where the bathroom is while your fiddling with a network cable, you
get the drift. Then you have to go into the meat of the game that's where
really intuitve menus pays off let me tell ya. And finally you hope you have a
game that's very entertaining but easy to play.
Yep it's sorta amazing anything ever really comes together. The reason why is
because I'm really dedicated to this and talke serious pride in it. Sorta like
a programmer which I partialy am during normal working hours.
I sorta give a game a seal of approval. What I have is a menu of games that
are currently available for network play in a busy enviroment. These games are
tested to be push button ready to go 1.2.3.
Currently they are:
Verite Quake
Voodoo Whiplash
Shattered Steel
Warcraft 2
Duke works to but never gets played anymore.
In the works are:
Verite Nascar 2 (1 system still has a joystick problem, plus I keep
finding things out it can't do in multiplayer)
Red Alert (one system hangs in '95, seems like a common problem for
many)
Neither is really ready for prime time. I know they'll be a headache
atm in a busy enviroment and once a game gives me a fit in prime time
that night is just about wasted for me. So I need to be very confident
a session can be setup at the press of a button.
Just some background on where I'm coming from. It's easy to have
friends when you give them something they want and can't get most any
place else. It's amazing at how out of tune I am with normal folk who
talk news and tv. I'm really lost now and that's sorta weird to.
Q.B.M.
> You see in Multiplayer mode you can't drive in Arcade Mode. The only
> allow Realisitc, thier version of twisted reality.
How does arcade mode affect handling???
writes:
>> You see in Multiplayer mode you can't drive in Arcade Mode. The only
>> allow Realisitc, thier version of twisted reality.
>How does arcade mode affect handling???
Make the car brake a lot better and handle a lot better.
I'm sure you'll get the diehards around here saying it isn't realistic
and maybe so maybe. What it does help is when friends come over they
can actually play as well and survive.
Another nice thing about Arcade which makes the game funner in a sense
is that the competition will slow down or speed up to match you and
give you a challange througout. What I do find myslef usually in
realistic mode your better or they're better and that's that.
Arcade has some benifits in my book still, even though I'm stuck in
realistic in a network enviroment.
Q.B.M.
> > You see in Multiplayer mode you can't drive in Arcade Mode. The only
> > allow Realisitc, thier version of twisted reality.
> How does arcade mode affect handling???
Your car just has phenomenal amounts of grip.
Dave (davids) Sparks
Late Night League
http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html
