IVGA Clarification from NRL

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> >Ed: > >Thanks for your response to all of us!!!! > >Don Wilshe > (major snippage) > Don. I don't know what to say. Somehow you have managed > to dig yourself even deeper. It's quite obvious you are now > beyond reasoning with on the matter. Is it that big of a deal to > include a small disclaimer on your web page regarding the fast lap > program? I was going to run Fastlaps until I found out about this > problem. I understand you have the only code to unlock the setups, > but I still feel uneasy about having my personal setup available to > anyone. I work *** those setups, and even if someone can't > duplicate my speed with the setup, it's still MINE. I worked for it, I > earned it. On another note, I hope you can understand this, but I'm > requesting that you take my name off the IVGA member's list. Somehow > you have turned a miscommunication into a full blown out war, and I > don't want to be involved in it. Good Luck to the IVGA in the future. > Regards, > David Range

I agree don take my name off two. it used to be neat to say I'm a member of the ivga but for you to include the 2600 members into this nrl equation i for one don't want to be apart of that group. Ive said it in an earlier post that For as long as I been a member not once have I recieved any setup information or setups so being attached to the ivga that has abused the power is not something I want to be apart of. As far as the thing that bothers me the most is you have continuely brought Joe Farr's name into the issue i think in order to get people off your name. I 've raced with Joe in the past and look forward to racing with him in the futre. In my book he's the only one associated with the top of the ivga that actually is not an ass. I have all the respect in the world for him I wish you would quit throwing his name up there when i think the issue comes down to your name... So please remove my name off the ivga member list as well... -Brian Motisko (Motisko) on hawaii

It is the policy of the NASCAR Racing League to NOT discuss internal inquiries, investigations, and/or issues publicly. However, due to a recent barrage of mis-information as it relates to a situation with the IVGA, we feel it is necessary to make a post to r.a.s. to clarify the situation. I again want to repeat that it is the official policy of the NRL to NOT discuss these situations in public. As such, WE WILL NOT RESPOND IN THIS NEWSGROUP AND/OR THIS THREAD ANY FURTHER AS IT RELATES TO THIS SITUATION. Further, we will not publicly discuss on-going issues, inquiries and investigations EVER. This policy is a two-way street. Public discussion of internal issues, inquiries or investigations is grounds for immediate and permanent ejection from the NRL. We take personal privacy VERY seriously, and we will not jeopardize any NRL activities by publicly disclosing information until and unless we: A) have completed our inquiry; and B) determine that it is necessary to do so in the greater interest of communication, competition and fairness. As it relates to the IVGA issue at hand... 1) It is important to keep in mind that the NRL is not yet available. Hawaii is a prototype which has served the purpose to help us make NRL a better sport. Hawaii is not NRL. NRL will not be available until early next year. Please do not confuse the 2. 2) NASCAR.EXE 1.x & MULTI.EXE are IRRELEVANT to this discussion. We are talking about NRL, not Hawaii. NRL will use NASCAR 2 -- a completely new product with new physics & setups. 3) It is of utmost importance to make NRL a fair and enjoyable sport. As such, it is equally important for us to take all measures to actually PREVENT anyone from having an unfair advantage, as it is for NRL to preserve & protect the belief/understanding/impression that noone does have an unfair advantage. 4) NOBODY from or associate with the IVGA has been told that they can not compete in the NRL. We have been conducting an inquiry into whether or not the IVGA might have an unfair advantage in the NRL by collecting fast car setups from users. Individual(s) from IVGA have jumped to conclusions based on PRIVATE and INTERNAL communications during the course of our inquiries. 5) Relating my 2 previous points, it is IRRELEVANT whether or not anyone in the IVGA uses accumulated car setups to gain an unfair advantage in the NRL. The fact that it would be possible to do so is enough to raise concern/question that anyone(s) who has immediate access to this information MIGHT have an unfair advantage. That will not be allowed in the NRL. 6) I REPEAT: NOBODY from or associate with the IVGA has been told that they can not compete in the NRL. We have conducted an inquiry, and made a policy statement in regard to the organized collection of user setups WITHIN NASCAR 2 AND THE NRL. Since neither of these are commercially available, nothing has yet happened other than a clear policy statement by the NRL. 7) Following is the official policy of the NRL: ANYONE AND EVERYONE WHO HAS ACCESS TO INFORMATION THAT MIGHT PROVIDE AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE, WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE SANCTIONED COMPETITION OF THE NRL. This rule applies to all Papyrus employees, all NASCAR employees, all employees of any/all organizations which participate in the delivery of the NASCAR Racing League, and all paid agents of said organizations. This rule will also be applied to any and all outside organizations and/or individuals who we feel have access to information which could provide an unfair advantage *or* the impression of an unfair advantage. 8) Individuals are free to exchange setups among themselves. The organized collection of setups is permitted when done for the SOLE PURPOSE of open & public exchange with the full knowledge and permission of the owners. However, collecting and/or exchanging setups for purposes other than the above is subject to this NRL policy & will be scrutinized as such. 9) Beta testers of Papyrus products are NOT paid agents. Beta testers do receive incomplete versions of our retail products before they are commercially available -- but nothing more. As it pertains to the NASCAR Racing League, they do not have an advantage. People who participated in the closed testing of Hawaii were immediately challenged, equaled and in many cases, surpassed by new users once Hawaii went public. It is also important to note that NASCAR 2 will be commercially available for months before NRL is released. Ed Martin Manager, NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Ed: Thanks for your response to all of us!!!! Don Wilshe Before you read this stuff come and VISIT GIDGET.. She can put you in the right FRAME OF MIND for whats to come... http://www.ivga.com/ppgidget.htm http://www.ivga.com Ed Martin wrote: > It is the policy of the NASCAR Racing League to NOT discuss internal > inquiries, investigations, and/or issues publicly. However, due to a > recent barrage of mis-information as it relates to a situation with > the IVGA, we feel it is necessary to make a post to r.a.s. to clarify > the situation. I think that is a fine policy and if PAPRYUS hadnt advise the IVGA to tell the PUBLIC WORLD about our process of gathering information to validate and maintain INTEGRITY we wouldnt be getting this self serving statement.. For the Record Dave Maston told the IVGA I Quote: Dave Matson - Head of HAWAII MP Spoke: I quote " Don, You have NOT clearly and definitively maintained the fact that you DO capture all setup information throughout our conversations here, which is why we have kept asking. These facts have not been made clear to all of your users, either. I want to see a huge disclaimer right up front on the fastlap software that says "By running this program we will have your full setup for analysis purposes." End of Quote" Now I am not the smartest person in the world, but I intepreted this as some direction from PAPYRUS to tell you people that our 2 lap FASTLAP program gathered setup information for the purpose of integrity checking.. DAAAAAAAAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh now I see they wanted me to tell you, but they didnt want you to know that PAPYRUS wanted me to tell you.. Sort of gets the message out without a connnection. Well I think it clear that the 2 lap FASTLAP program gathers information for the purpose of analysis. THIS FACT HAS BEEN STATED SINCE DAY ONE!!!!!!!! I was really surprised to find out that this information i had that allowed a fast two laps would instantly make me a dominate racer in the NRL. 2 laps setups with NASCAR 1.21 lets me win every NASCAR 2.0 NRL contest.. I cant wait to spend all that $$$$$$$$$$ > I again want to repeat that it is the official policy of the NRL to > NOT discuss these situations in public. As such, WE WILL NOT RESPOND > IN THIS NEWSGROUP AND/OR THIS THREAD ANY FURTHER AS IT RELATES TO THIS > SITUATION. Further, we will not publicly discuss on-going issues, > inquiries and investigations EVER. First its private than its public than its private and than its public .. PAPYRUS you got me spinning.. Make up your mind of you want me to tell the poor people or not....

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> This policy is a two-way street. Public discussion of internal > issues, inquiries or investigations is grounds for immediate and > permanent ejection from the NRL. We take personal privacy VERY > seriously, and we will not jeopardize any NRL activities by publicly > disclosing information until and unless we: A) have completed our > inquiry; and B) determine that it is necessary to do so in the greater > interest of communication, competition and fairness.

NEW RULE!!!!!!!!! ED: Better start reading Dave Matson email before he sends it out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IVGA WANTS FROM PAPYRUS A PERSONAL PRIVACY STATEMENT I want PAPYRUS to tell us now that they will never look at or keep any of our personal privacy data in thier role and responsibility of maintaining integrity.... PEOPLE YOU WILL NEVER HEAR A REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE... THEY JUST CANT SAY IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > As it relates to the IVGA issue at hand... > 1) It is important to keep in mind that the NRL is not yet available. > Hawaii is a prototype which has served the purpose to help us make NRL > a better sport. Hawaii is not NRL. NRL will not be available until > early next year. Please do not confuse the 2. ok > 2) NASCAR.EXE 1.x & MULTI.EXE are IRRELEVANT to this discussion. We > are talking about NRL, not Hawaii. NRL will use NASCAR 2 -- a > completely new product with new physics & setups. well we finally got that issue dealt with.. Now we can also forget the issue with NASCAR 1.21 and its setups... > 3) It is of utmost importance to make NRL a fair and enjoyable sport. > As such, it is equally important for us to take all measures to > actually PREVENT anyone from having an unfair advantage, as it is for > NRL to preserve & protect the belief/understanding/impression that > noone does have an unfair advantage. I 100% totally support this and that is what the IVGA has been doing since day one.. > 4) NOBODY from or associate with the IVGA has been told that they can > not compete in the NRL. We have been conducting an inquiry into > whether or not the IVGA might have an unfair advantage in the NRL by > collecting fast car setups from users. Individual(s) from IVGA have > jumped to conclusions based on PRIVATE and INTERNAL communications > during the course of our inquiries. TOTAL BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!! Dave Matson Spoke to the IVGA: " I think all of the IVGA management and staff should disqualify itself from NRL participation." Last time I went to school that english statement meant get out and stay the hell out of the NRL....... > 5) Relating my 2 previous points, it is IRRELEVANT whether or not > anyone in the IVGA uses accumulated car setups to gain an unfair > advantage in the NRL. The fact that it would be possible to do so is > enough to raise concern/question that anyone(s) who has immediate > access to this information MIGHT have an unfair advantage. That will > not be allowed in the NRL. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN!!!!!!!!! I THINK WE ARE OUT!!!!!!!! > 6) I REPEAT: NOBODY from or associate with the IVGA has been told > that they can not compete in the NRL. We have conducted an inquiry, > and made a policy statement in regard to the organized collection of > user setups WITHIN NASCAR 2 AND THE NRL. Since neither of these are > commercially available, nothing has yet happened other than a clear > policy statement by the NRL. WHAT THE DO DO I THINK WE ARE IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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> 7) Following is the official policy of the NRL: ANYONE AND EVERYONE > WHO HAS ACCESS TO INFORMATION THAT MIGHT PROVIDE AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE, > WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE SANCTIONED COMPETITION OF > THE NRL. This rule applies to all Papyrus employees, all NASCAR > employees, all employees of any/all organizations which participate in > the delivery of the NASCAR Racing League, and all paid agents of said > organizations. This rule will also be applied to any and all outside > organizations and/or individuals who we feel have access to > information which could provide an unfair advantage *or* the > impression of an unfair advantage.

ANOTHER NEW RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!! Paid Agents.. Paid Agents are people that get Paid Right!!!!!!! Well let me tell you how it works for the BETA TESTERS. You see they get an hour credit for each hour they test. And than they get a free hour when NRL comes out.. DAAAAAAAAAAAA That is money!!! PAPYRUS is going to pay the beta testers to for testing that is $$$ That is reimbursement.... That is PAID AGENTS!!!!!!!!!! What does that mean... That means that BETA TESTERS MUST BE INCLUDED ELIMINATED FROM THE NRL.... > 8) Individuals are free to exchange setups among themselves. The > organized collection of setups is permitted when done for the SOLE > PURPOSE of open & public exchange with the full knowledge and > permission of the owners. However, collecting and/or exchanging > setups for purposes other than the above is subject to this NRL policy > & will be scrutinized as such. BINGO!!!!!!!!!! Now if two people send setups to each other its ok. But if 3 people send setups amongst themselves its a group. Better get rid of those GROUPS or you will be terminated from the NRL!!!! BONK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Another new rule..

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> 9) Beta testers of Papyrus products are NOT paid agents. Beta > testers do receive incomplete versions of our retail products before > they are commercially available -- but nothing more. As it pertains > to the NASCAR Racing League, they do not have an advantage. People > who participated in the closed testing of Hawaii were immediately > challenged, equaled and in many cases, surpassed by new users once > Hawaii went public. It is also important to note that NASCAR 2 will > be commercially available for months before NRL is released.

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!! Paid Agents.. Paid Agents are people that get Paid Right!!!!!!! Well let me tell you how it works for the BETA TESTERS. You see they get an hour credit for each hour they test. And than they get a free hour when NRL comes out.. DAAAAAAAAAAAA That is money!!! PAPYRUS is going to pay the beta testers to for testing that is $$$ That is reimbursement.... That is PAID AGENTS!!!!!!!!!! What does that mean... That means that BETA TESTERS MUST BE INCLUDED ELIMINATED FROM THE NRL.... GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!!!!!!!! or a Bump Draft!!!!!!!!!!! YES THEY ARE THE GET REIMBURSED FOR THIER TEST TIME AND PHONE BILLS!!!! > Ed Martin > Manager, NASCAR Racing League > Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc. Ed: I am sure glad you cleared that up and talk about a spin... Jim Janssen , the master of all PAPYRUS PLUG IN integrity software has written 30,000 lines of c++ Code.. The IVGA would not even be in the business or have written a single line of code if we didnt have to. Why couldn't PAPYRUS just have done thier job right!!! I hope that NASCAR 2.0 has some integrity features built in.... Our goal at the IVGA is to be able to delete this code!!!!! YOU KNOW I CAN FIGURE OUT SOMETHING. WHO IS IN CHARGE.. NASCAR or PAPYRUS and who runs and makes the rules for NRL.. NASCAR or PAPYRUS!!! Don Wilshe, IVGA ============================================

<A whole lot of frustrated, senseless rabble snipped> You just don't get it. That head must be made of tempered steel! They wanted it kept private, you made it public. They wanted their inquiries, etc. kept private. Your setup capturing disclosure is a SEPARATE issue. So here it is in plain english (read slowly) - Tell everyone about the fact that you have all their setups - then - Tell no one about your internal knowledge about Papy's inquiries. They say no one is yet omitted from the NRL, you say - Oh yes I am. It's not even here yet. Helloooo McFly! If you get a letter saying "You're out!" THEN scream ***y ***, but deriving inferences from one man's SUGGESTION about self disqualification is NOT being banned, YET. I think you're in a hole with a really big shovel and an insatiable desire to dig. Chill out! Its only getting deeper. Another key issue - ITS THEIR SERVICE. If they think someone has too many setups, then they can boot that someone. Again, its not here yet. They're warning one and all about mass collection of setups for N2 and the NRL. I'm sure NASCAR is clear about their intended public image. The last thing Papy and/or NASCAR wants is bad publicity. The kind of publicity that could come about if accusations of unfair advantage arise. They're nipping it in the bud. Smart business. I guess I'm now in 100's of kill files. My intention is only to maybe help Don get it or at least chill a little, so he doesn't get booted from the NRL. I think he should be able to run on the NRL and let the cards fall where thay may. Sit in the big chair of the guy in charge of all this for just a minute. He/she is not going to tolerate FUTURE improprieties, real or perceived. It is, after all, a war you cannot win; they call the shots. One more note; this is just my $.02. No more or less important than anyone elses. If you see this as 'Fightin Words', then you don't get the idea of a free exchange of viewpoints. Mike - Hawaii driver looking forward to the NRL!

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> > They say no one is yet omitted from the NRL, you say - Oh yes I am. > > It's not even here yet. Helloooo McFly! If you get a letter saying > > "You're out!" THEN scream ***y ***, but deriving inferences from > > one man's SUGGESTION about self disqualification is NOT being banned, > > YET. I think you're in a hole with a really big shovel and an > > insatiable desire to dig. Chill out! Its only getting deeper. > Cant you read Dave Matson note to me... He told me that he wanted us > out... Didnt you read the quote!!!!!!!!

I've read the quoted note several times. If they ban you, riot til the cows come home, but until then, you can only make trouble for yourself. I don't think you should just cave in, but, as they say, discretion is the better part of valor. Asking you to disqualify yourself and telling you that you can't compete are two different things. He can WANT you out until he's blue in the face, but until he says - YOU CANNOT COMPETE IN THE NRL - the only thing hurt is your ego and feelings. I am beginning to think you want a fight. When I signed on to Hawaii a long time ago, I heard rumblings from people about trouble with Don Wilshe and IVGA. I wondered what could have happened to put such a black cloud over you? I never pursued it, nor really cared much about it because it didn't apply to me. Is that it? You enjoy the conflict? Isn't there a time when you just let it go? Perhaps I am the one in the dark here. Maybe I don't have a clue as to what is really going on. I do see a very angry human being that has misinterpreted several communications. I honestly hope I never find out 'whats really happening'; I hope this all goes away, and N2 is released, and the NRL is an awesome place to race with ALL the talented drivers out there, yourself included (without all the strife however). Mike

In no way do I want to fuel the fire Ed, but you bring up what I think to be an important issue. : 7) Following is the official policy of the NRL: ANYONE AND EVERYONE : WHO HAS ACCESS TO INFORMATION THAT MIGHT PROVIDE AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE, : WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE SANCTIONED COMPETITION OF : THE NRL. This rule applies to all Papyrus employees, all NASCAR : employees, all employees of any/all organizations which participate in : the delivery of the NASCAR Racing League, and all paid agents of said : organizations. This rule will also be applied to any and all outside : organizations and/or individuals who we feel have access to : information which could provide an unfair advantage *or* the : impression of an unfair advantage. Now in laymen terms, just what can this mean? Concerning computer hardware, it's clear. Concerning setup "tricks", it's clear (ie, a low fuel setup). But regarding setups themselves, it is real foggy. For instance, someone with real world knowledge about racing suspensions would he have "access to information that might provide an unfair advantage" against a mere computer gamer? How about gamers that have been playing since ICR1 as opposed to someone just introduced to NCAR2, wouldn't the experienced have the above knoledge concerning how Papyrus' sims interpret real world physics? Not questions with easy answers. I'm not mentioning this in any way against your or Papyrus, Ed. I appriciate what Papyrus has done over the years, it all started with Indy 500, then every other package as soon as it was available up here. Hawaii is a rush, but it's been at least since June/July since I've called - long distance is a ***, and to my knowledge there's no leagues running 1am MST. The suggestion I give to you is this: In order to protect both yourself and the customer of NRL, Papyrus must improve its manual greatly. When it comes to setting up a car, it must be more clearer than "Stiffer Shock: Increases weight transfer at that wheel. Handling becomes more responsive, car can feel a little 'slippery' as chassis snaps back into place after a turn". Whatever setups are included with the game, there should be a real difference between ACE, FAST, and EASY. In ICR2 the only difference was wing settings. It is in this way that I can see your point #7 comming accross smoother when the NRL opens up. __o _-\<,_ Cosmo Potapoff

>Ed: >Thanks for your response to all of us!!!! >Don Wilshe (major snippage) Don. I don't know what to say. Somehow you have managed to dig yourself even deeper. It's quite obvious you are now beyond reasoning with on the matter. Is it that big of a deal to include a small disclaimer on your web page regarding the fast lap program? I was going to run Fastlaps until I found out about this problem. I understand you have the only code to unlock the setups, but I still feel uneasy about having my personal setup available to anyone. I work *** those setups, and even if someone can't duplicate my speed with the setup, it's still MINE. I worked for it, I earned it. On another note, I hope you can understand this, but I'm requesting that you take my name off the IVGA member's list. Somehow you have turned a miscommunication into a full blown out war, and I don't want to be involved in it. Good Luck to the IVGA in the future. Regards, David Range

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>>Ed: >>Thanks for your response to all of us!!!! >>Don Wilshe >(major snippage) >Don. I don't know what to say. Somehow you have managed >to dig yourself even deeper. It's quite obvious you are now >beyond reasoning with on the matter. Is it that big of a deal to >include a small disclaimer on your web page regarding the fast lap >program? I was going to run Fastlaps until I found out about this >problem. I understand you have the only code to unlock the setups, >but I still feel uneasy about having my personal setup available to >anyone. I work *** those setups, and even if someone can't >duplicate my speed with the setup, it's still MINE. I worked for it, I >earned it. On another note, I hope you can understand this, but I'm >requesting that you take my name off the IVGA member's list. Somehow >you have turned a miscommunication into a full blown out war, and I >don't want to be involved in it. Good Luck to the IVGA in the future. >Regards, >David Range

well, well, well. look's like ol' Don is having a nervous breakdown..... Face it Don, what Papyrus is asking isn't a whole lot. The Fastlap program gives you access to any participants setup file. kinda like having the opposing teams playbook, now that would be an unfair advantage. From all the postings on this, it seems as if Papyrus was just trying to show you how it be seen as unfair, But you decided to cry to all of us. Sorry man, no sympathy from me.... it just makes you look like a RAVING LUNATIC!!! let it die. after all that badmouthing you've done, I think you should back-off for a short time and and then re-evaluate the situation. Blaine Bett Blaine on Hawaii p.s.--- please take me off of any ivga list's.... i am giving up my membership... raises too many questions.....

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> >Ed: > >Thanks for your response to all of us!!!! > >Don Wilshe > (major snippage) > Don. I don't know what to say. Somehow you have managed > to dig yourself even deeper. It's quite obvious you are now > beyond reasoning with on the matter. Is it that big of a deal to > include a small disclaimer on your web page regarding the fast lap > program? I was going to run Fastlaps until I found out about this > problem. I understand you have the only code to unlock the setups, > but I still feel uneasy about having my personal setup available to > anyone. I work *** those setups, and even if someone can't > duplicate my speed with the setup, it's still MINE. I worked for it, I > earned it. On another note, I hope you can understand this, but I'm > requesting that you take my name off the IVGA member's list. Somehow > you have turned a miscommunication into a full blown out war, and I > don't want to be involved in it. Good Luck to the IVGA in the future. > Regards, > David Range

IVGA OVERVIEW "No Friends at 200MPH, Only Fans" IVGA BRIEF: The IVGA is an organization that was founded on the premise that video simulation *** is a BRAINSPORT and recognizes that individual can THINK and REACT to the demands of computer simulations. We know it takes special mental skills to drive a virtual racing car and have yet to find any real race car drivers that can run with INTERNETS best. The IVGA is the home of the very serious, hard-core and best drivers in the world. Unlike other INTERNET RACING SERIES, the IVGA is a commercial enterprise. We use advanced software technology to provide continuous integrity and technical inspection and monitoring of drivers while they are either RACING or attempting for a world record FASTLAP. Our goal, like NASCAR, is to eliminate HACKING by using special software during the entire racing process. We will look at and use every piece of information available to the IVGA software to maintain integrity. When the NASCAR or INDYCAR software has fixed it's problems we will delete this code from the IVGA software.

Don Wilshe, Regarding that last post Don! Jeez, You really DON'T know when to leave well enough alone do you? Is it that you WANT to be banned?? From the way you flamed Ed's very GOOD post, I can see NO other explaination! PLEASE, for your OWN sake, Give it a REST! Don Atkins... Donatkins

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> Don Wilshe, > Regarding that last post Don! > Jeez, You really DON'T know when to leave well enough alone do you? > Is it that you WANT to be banned?? From the way you flamed Ed's very > GOOD post, I can see NO other explaination! > PLEASE, for your OWN sake, Give it a REST! > Don Atkins... > Donatkins

It wasnt a flame it was a matter of setting the record. Dave Matson tells me one thing and Ed Martin tells me the opposite.. You can read Matson email to me cant you.. Don

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>well, well, well. >look's like ol' Don is having a nervous >breakdown..... Face it Don, what Papyrus is asking isn't a whole lot. >The Fastlap program gives you access to any participants setup file. >kinda like having the opposing teams playbook, now that would be an >unfair advantage. From all the postings on this, it seems as if >Papyrus was just trying to show you how it be seen as unfair, But you >decided to cry to all of us. Sorry man, no sympathy from me.... >it just makes you look like a RAVING LUNATIC!!! let it die. >after all that badmouthing you've done, I think you should back-off >for a short time and and then re-evaluate the situation. >Blaine Bett

Well put. I got tired of his posts when he started the IVGA and have now placed him in the KILL LIST. Actually, it would be nice if he just took up golf or something.... Jeff

Right!!!!!!! Well let me tell you how it works for the BETA TESTERS. You see they get an hour credit for each hour they test. And than they get a free hour when NRL comes out.. DAAAAAAAAAAAA That is money!!! PAPYRUS is going to pay the beta testers to for testing that is $$$ That is reimbur***t.... That is PAID AGENTS!!!!!!!!!! What does that mean... That means that BETA TESTERS MUST BE INCLUDED ELIMINATED FROM THE NRL.... >> What a tirade, Don...Brilliant logic. So let me ask you where you get your information on beta testers. Everything you wrote after that all hinges upon you claiming to know "how it works for beta testers". So, what's your sources. I challenge your assumptions. Randy

Don, Please take my name off of the IVGA membership roles. I have no wish to be associated with you or your organization and regret ever signing up. Randy

Don, you got a big box o Pringles on your shoulder. Your fastlap program DID NOT make clear it stole setups, furthermore, very well crafted setups from top racers appeared in public after IVGA submission, I find it hard to believe someone else stumbled on this setup EXACTLY, especially when it is probably the hottest Martinsville setup around. You act as if everyone knew this was occurring. Not true. Papyrus is a business, in partnership with NASCAR -- Don, sorry, but IVGA is hardly a significant concern, nor a significant player in this space. Papy will get MORE customers by eliminating these threats than satisfying them. For you to believe all this is some EGO trip by Papyrus is silly. Why the hell do you need setup information anyways to detect cheating -- that is irrelevant. I could see you taking a snapshot of the system to detect TSR enhancment, and EXE checksum to detect program alterations -- but the setup? You don't need to know the details of my setup to know if I am cheating. You only need it to find out how to go as fast as the submitter. Funny how it has had little impact on the true driving tracks, North Wilkes, Richmond, Sears Pt, and Phoenix. HUGE impact on the "setup" tracks, Char, Atlanta, MIS (where certain drivers show relative dominance compared to the non-setup tracks). I have no opinion on the BAN or any of that stuff.. I am just very miffed that it is TRUE that setups were stolen by fastlap, and that nobody knew this was going on. Truly devious. All I want is a fair race.. and I'll take it ANY DAY. Tim V Don Wilshe wrote:

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> Ed: > Thanks for your response to all of us!!!! > Don Wilshe > Before you read this stuff come and VISIT GIDGET.. She can put you in > the right FRAME OF MIND for whats to come... > http://www.ivga.com/ppgidget.htm > http://www.ivga.com > Ed Martin wrote: > > It is the policy of the NASCAR Racing League to NOT discuss internal > > inquiries, investigations, and/or issues publicly. However, due to a > > recent barrage of mis-information as it relates to a situation with > > the IVGA, we feel it is necessary to make a post to r.a.s. to clarify > > the situation. > I think that is a fine policy and if PAPRYUS hadnt advise the IVGA to > tell the PUBLIC WORLD about our process of gathering information to > validate and maintain INTEGRITY we wouldnt be getting this self serving > statement.. For the Record Dave Maston told the IVGA I Quote: > Dave Matson - Head of HAWAII MP Spoke: > I quote " > Don, > You have NOT clearly and definitively maintained the fact that you DO > capture > all setup information throughout our conversations here, which is why we > have > kept asking. These facts have not been made clear to all of your users, > either. > I want to see a huge disclaimer right up front on the fastlap software > that > says "By running this program we will have your full setup for analysis > purposes." > End of Quote" > Now I am not the smartest person in the world, but I intepreted this as > some direction from PAPYRUS to tell you people that our 2 lap FASTLAP > program > gathered setup information for the purpose of integrity checking.. > DAAAAAAAAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh now I see they wanted me to tell you, > but > they didnt want you to know that PAPYRUS wanted me to tell you.. > Sort of gets the message out without a connnection. > Well I think it clear that the 2 lap FASTLAP program gathers information > for > the purpose of analysis. THIS FACT HAS BEEN STATED SINCE DAY ONE!!!!!!!! > I was really surprised to find out that this information i had that > allowed > a fast two laps would instantly make me a dominate racer in the NRL. 2 > laps > setups with NASCAR 1.21 lets me win every NASCAR 2.0 NRL contest.. I > cant > wait to spend all that $$$$$$$$$$ > > I again want to repeat that it is the official policy of the NRL to > > NOT discuss these situations in public. As such, WE WILL NOT RESPOND > > IN THIS NEWSGROUP AND/OR THIS THREAD ANY FURTHER AS IT RELATES TO THIS > > SITUATION. Further, we will not publicly discuss on-going issues, > > inquiries and investigations EVER. > First its private than its public than its private and than its public > .. > PAPYRUS you got me spinning.. Make up your mind of you want me to tell > the poor people or not.... > > This policy is a two-way street. Public discussion of internal > > issues, inquiries or investigations is grounds for immediate and > > permanent ejection from the NRL. We take personal privacy VERY > > seriously, and we will not jeopardize any NRL activities by publicly > > disclosing information until and unless we: A) have completed our > > inquiry; and B) determine that it is necessary to do so in the greater > > interest of communication, competition and fairness. > NEW RULE!!!!!!!!! ED: Better start reading Dave Matson email before > he sends it out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > IVGA WANTS FROM PAPYRUS A PERSONAL PRIVACY STATEMENT > I want PAPYRUS to tell us now that they will never look at or keep any > of > our personal privacy data in thier role and responsibility of > maintaining > integrity.... > PEOPLE YOU WILL NEVER HEAR A REPLY TO THIS > MESSAGE... THEY JUST CANT SAY > IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > As it relates to the IVGA issue at hand... > > 1) It is important to keep in mind that the NRL is not yet available. > > Hawaii is a prototype which has served the purpose to help us make NRL > > a better sport. Hawaii is not NRL. NRL will not be available until > > early next year. Please do not confuse the 2. > ok > > 2) NASCAR.EXE 1.x & MULTI.EXE are IRRELEVANT to this discussion. We > > are talking about NRL, not Hawaii. NRL will use NASCAR 2 -- a > > completely new product with new physics & setups. > well we finally got that issue dealt with.. Now we can also forget the > issue with NASCAR 1.21 and its setups... > > 3) It is of utmost importance to make NRL a fair and enjoyable sport. > > As such, it is equally important for us to take all measures to > > actually PREVENT anyone from having an unfair advantage, as it is for > > NRL to preserve & protect the belief/understanding/impression that > > noone does have an unfair advantage. > I 100% totally support this and that is what the IVGA has been doing > since > day one.. > > 4) NOBODY from or associate with the IVGA has been told that they can > > not compete in the NRL. We have been conducting an inquiry into > > whether or not the IVGA might have an unfair advantage in the NRL by > > collecting fast car setups from users. Individual(s) from IVGA have > > jumped to conclusions based on PRIVATE and INTERNAL communications > > during the course of our inquiries. > TOTAL BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!! Dave Matson Spoke to the IVGA: > " I think all of the IVGA management and staff should disqualify itself > from NRL > participation." > Last time I went to school that english statement meant get out and stay > the hell out of the NRL....... > > 5) Relating my 2 previous points, it is IRRELEVANT whether or not > > anyone in the IVGA uses accumulated car setups to gain an unfair > > advantage in the NRL. The fact that it would be possible to do so is > > enough to raise concern/question that anyone(s) who has immediate > > access to this information MIGHT have an unfair advantage. That will > > not be allowed in the NRL. > WHAT DOES THAT MEAN!!!!!!!!! I THINK WE ARE OUT!!!!!!!! > > 6) I REPEAT: NOBODY from or associate with the IVGA has been told > > that they can not compete in the NRL. We have conducted an inquiry, > > and made a policy statement in regard to the organized collection of > > user setups WITHIN NASCAR 2 AND THE NRL. Since neither of these are > > commercially available, nothing has yet happened other than a clear > > policy statement by the NRL. > WHAT THE DO DO I THINK WE ARE IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > 7) Following is the official policy of the NRL: ANYONE AND EVERYONE > > WHO HAS ACCESS TO INFORMATION THAT MIGHT PROVIDE AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE, > > WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE SANCTIONED COMPETITION OF > > THE NRL. This rule applies to all Papyrus employees, all NASCAR > > employees, all employees of any/all organizations which participate in > > the delivery of the NASCAR Racing League, and all paid agents of said > > organizations. This rule will also be applied to any and all outside > > organizations and/or individuals who we feel have access to > > information which could provide an unfair advantage *or* the > > impression of an unfair advantage. > ANOTHER NEW RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!! Paid Agents.. Paid Agents are people that get Paid > Right!!!!!!! Well let me tell you how it works for the BETA TESTERS. > You see they get an hour credit for each hour they test. And than they > get a free hour when NRL comes out.. DAAAAAAAAAAAA That is money!!! > PAPYRUS is going to pay the beta testers to for testing that is $$$ > That is reimbursement.... That is PAID AGENTS!!!!!!!!!! > What does that mean... That means that BETA TESTERS MUST BE INCLUDED > ELIMINATED FROM THE NRL.... > > 8) Individuals are free to exchange setups among themselves. The > > organized collection of setups is permitted when done for the SOLE > > PURPOSE of open & public exchange with the full knowledge and > > permission of the owners. However, collecting and/or exchanging > > setups for purposes other than the above is subject to this NRL policy > > & will be scrutinized as such. > BINGO!!!!!!!!!! Now if two people send setups to each other its ok. > But if 3 people send setups amongst themselves its a group. Better > get rid of those GROUPS or you will be terminated from the NRL!!!! > BONK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Another new rule.. > > 9) Beta testers

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>> >Ed: >> >Thanks for your response to all of us!!!! >> >Don Wilshe >> (major snippage) >> Don. I don't know what to say. Somehow you have managed >> to dig yourself even deeper. It's quite obvious you are now >> beyond reasoning with on the matter. Is it that big of a deal to >> include a small disclaimer on your web page regarding the fast lap >> program? I was going to run Fastlaps until I found out about this >> problem. I understand you have the only code to unlock the setups, >> but I still feel uneasy about having my personal setup available to >> anyone. I work *** those setups, and even if someone can't >> duplicate my speed with the setup, it's still MINE. I worked for it, I >> earned it. On another note, I hope you can understand this, but I'm >> requesting that you take my name off the IVGA member's list. Somehow >> you have turned a miscommunication into a full blown out war, and I >> don't want to be involved in it. Good Luck to the IVGA in the future. >> Regards, >> David Range >IVGA OVERVIEW > "No Friends at 200MPH, Only Fans" >IVGA BRIEF: The IVGA is an organization that was founded on the premise >that video simulation *** is a BRAINSPORT and recognizes that >individual >can THINK and REACT to the demands of computer simulations. We know it >takes >special mental skills to drive a virtual racing car and have yet to find >any real race car drivers that can run with INTERNETS best. The IVGA is >the >home of the very serious, hard-core and best drivers in the world. >Unlike >other INTERNET RACING SERIES, the IVGA is a commercial enterprise. We >use >advanced software technology to provide continuous integrity and >technical >inspection and monitoring of drivers while they are either RACING or >attempting for a world record FASTLAP. Our goal, like NASCAR, is to >eliminate HACKING by using special software during the entire racing >process. >We will look at and use every piece of information available to the IVGA >software to maintain integrity. When the NASCAR or INDYCAR software has >fixed it's problems we will delete this code from the IVGA software.

Uh ,Don. In the paragraph above I don't see anything that states "in addition, the Fastlap program will capture your settings and will be unlocked and checked for any inacuracies by Don Wilshe, Head of IVGA." It's quite clear that although there is a small passage that hints towards this, there is no clear statement regarding it. See the difference? Regards, David Range

: : TOTAL BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!! Dave Matson Spoke to the IVGA: : : " I think all of the IVGA management and staff should disqualify itself : from NRL participation." : : Last time I went to school that english statement meant get out and stay : the hell out of the NRL....... : Well, you better tromp right on back to school then buddy. Sounds to me like a simple statment of opinion, or a modest suggestion at worst. You and Oliver Stone should get together & do a movie. Doug Hillman "The Truth is outside of all fixed patterns." - Bruce Lee This isn't much of a .sig but that wasn't much of a post either

all i can say guys ia that fastlap setups will not b at all usefull in multiplayer on hawaii all my setups b4 multi didnt work well on hawaii i have all new setups 4 multi and i:m sure don does to

> Don, > Please take my name off of the IVGA membership roles. I have no wish to > be associated with you or your organization and regret ever signing up. > Randy I second this.... Please take my name off the IVGA list also. -- Carman Okon Standard Disclaimer

[snip snip snip snip snip snip] Don, this is deja vu all over again. You have done this in the past. Taken private correspondence from Papyrus, misconstrued it and used it as a EGO driven campaign here on r.a.s. If you are looking for support from me... Sorry, can't give it to you. You have brought it upon yourself and I suggest you deal with it by yourself and leave the driving to us. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> all i can say guys ia that fastlap setups will not b at all usefull in > multiplayer > on hawaii all my setups b4 multi didnt work well on hawaii > i have all new setups 4 multi and i:m sure don does to My Teladega setup runs ok on Nascar, better on Multi, and even better on Hawaii although Multi and Hawaii should be the same. -- Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA VBTrace 96 is a runtime Procedure Trace, XRef, Debug, Profiler and much more. Shareware $49. http://www.apexsc.com/vb/ftp/coop/cstuart

Did either one of you guys sign up with the IVGA on r.a.s. No!!! So why are you trying to resign from IVGA using this news group. The address is www.ivga.com!!! Maybe you are just trying to make a show for others, or maybe your just a bunch of brown-nosers!

>Did either one of you guys sign up with the IVGA on r.a.s. No!!! So why are you trying >to resign from IVGA using this news group. The address is www.ivga.com!!! Maybe you >are just trying to make a show for others, or maybe your just a bunch of brown-nosers! Maybe you don't know what the hell you're talking about! Since Don Wilshe deemed it necessary to post private e-mail he received from Papyrus, how does that make myself, or anyone else who asked to be removed from the IVGA to be any different? BTW, please point out WHERE on the IVGA webpage that you can resign your membership. Think before you respond. David Range

>Did either one of you guys sign up with the IVGA on r.a.s. No!!! So why are you trying >to resign from IVGA using this news group. The address is www.ivga.com!!! Maybe you >are just trying to make a show for others, or maybe your just a bunch of brown-nosers! Maybe you don't know what the hell you're talking about! Since Don Wilshe deemed it necessary to post private e-mail from Papyrus to r.a.s., how does that make it any different?Anyways, please point out WHERE you can resign from the IVGA on their webpage. David Range