Gp2/IC2 model comparison

One thing is for certain What sound!? You cant hear the other cars in GP2, In ICR2, even via modem, I can hear my buddy changing his gears! -DG

> Just so as you don`t get the wrong idea I`m not hounding you > personally. > I think the sound in GP2 is superior to ICR2. There are many more > little effects in GP2. My reply was to the simple fact that hearing other cars and changing gears is still more exciting amd realistic than hearing no car at all beside you. Its very difficult to race a full race and not be able to hear or see the car your passing or being passed by, beside you. No matter how good you are its still very easy to get collected. In ICR2 you can hear the other cars beside you and even though its not "realistic" you can see them beside you in your rearview. This is only to compensate that you have no peripheral vision when looking head-on at a monitor. -David Gary

Hi Firstly, let me say that I like both simulations immensly, so this is not an attempt to deride one against the other. What interests me is the underlying physical models of both simulators and how well these models reflect real car behaviour. I've done quite a few virtual miles on both sims now and a pattern is beginning to emerge. GP2 first. The total package is excellent. The inclusion of telemetry analysis was a brilliant move, along with an indepth range of parameters (but where is tyre temperature?). The presentation is sharp and well thought out. The accuracy of the model though I question. By definition, it is just a model and it will be a while before we get anything that realistic on a PC, but I think the GP2 model is weak in a crucial area - and that is braking. The braking simulation is very simplistic, no matter where you put the brake bias, and no matter how much you destabalise the car, when you brake the car will if anything regain stability, and certainly not fish-tail or loose front-end grip. I know F1 cars handle corners far more easily than IndyCars, so the cars behaviour throuh corners is perhaps realistic. Likewise the spring settings in an F1 car are perhaps stiffer so the lack of pitch movement under braking and acceleration again reflects the real car. But the ease in which the car handles under braking in a number of configurations I'm sure isn't. IC2 is less well packaged (well is simpler I guess) and doesn't have telemetry analysis :-(. The graphics are good, but probably not as good as GP2. However, it is far harder to drive the cars in IC2. Braking in particular is much more like what I'd expect, i.e. critical - you can easily loose the car if you brake in the wrong configuration. As you would expect, Indycars don't corner so well, and this is reflected in the simulation. The car is also pitch sensitive. The overall impression is that you are driving a car which has to be `driven'. It's a bit like comparin an F-16 with a Phantom F4 (or something). The FBW of the F16 will make the plane easier to fly, even though the performance in turns is greater. There's no FBW on an F4 so the plane is harder to fly, though I suspect, as with F1 cars and Indycars, that the envelope of the F4 (aka Indycar) is `softer' than the F16 (aka F1). So we would expect the F1 car to be more `critical', whereas you'll get some degree of warning from an Indycar. The two sims seem to capture this - though without any feedback in the controls it's difficult to judge. So on the whole, I think both simulations are very good, but I think the IC2 model is a better simulation of Indycars than Gp2 is of F1 cars, and I think the main area of difference is braking. But I love them both, my current problem is which to focus on first so I can get a championship season underway! Alan PS I got a mate in the other night to try them both back-to-back. He agreed that IC2 was much harder to drive. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The views/opinions expressed here are my own and do not in any way reflect the views/opinions of my employer. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I find this a little odd. In my experience, the brake position is very critical. Set it forward from the default position & you can't stop quickly enough. The front wheels will lock _very_ easily in such a configuration. Set it back & stopping becomes much quicker with less chance of locking the front wheels, but the rear end will whip round if the wheel is moved even the slightest amount. I find that a change in brake bias of just .5% makes a _big_ difference to the way the car handles! What control system are you using and what have you got the low sensitivity zone set to for the brake? I'm using a GP500 which has excellent pedal control with the brake's low sensitivity set to 10%. Are you using any of the driving aids? In GP2, there's too little pitch movement. In ICR2, there's too much! <snip> After non-stop GP2 for several weeks, I switched back to ICR2 for a while and I became amazed at how much _easier_ it was on the road courses - still couldn't master the ovals though :(. Once the car got to the limit, there was enough warning that something was going to go that I could pretty easily correct it. ICR2 also seems to require much more of a "*** the brakes / off the brakes" technique whilst GP2 requires that the brakes are modulated to get maximum braking force / grip without locking the wheels. I agree with the first bit but disagree with the second <g>. Braking _is_ different between F1 & Indycars. F1 cars are much lighter and have higher performance brakes, so they stop much quicker, but it is also much easier to lock wheels. Both sims seem to model their respective braking aspect very well. I wonder if a lot of our differing experiences comes down to driving styles. Much of my time in GP2 has been hotlapping so I've become very used to constantly driving right at the limit and exploiting every feature the setup options offer. With ICR2 I tended to concentrate more on races and with more easy going setups. And Nascar 2 is only just around the corner..... If only all our problems were like this <g> Cheers, Richard

Alan, Your comments on the two games are very accurate, and I find myself agreeing on almost every point. The comparison of Indy to a Phantom, and F1 to a Falcon is the best damn comparison I have heard yet, and not only reflects handling (F1/F16 Wins), but is also accurate in regard to weight, power, and top speed. (and size :) ^^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ INDY/F4 INDY/F4 INDY/F4 INDY/F4 Heavier MORE FASTER BIGGER I must say, however, that the wheel locking model on GP2 strikes me as reasonably accurate, and I think it is related to the braking power and weight of an F1 car to an indycar. F1 cars do have shorter braking distances and I believe would be more stable under brakes as braking is an integral part of every F1 track, unlike Indy which is important on only some of the tracks. By this I mean HARD BRAKING from high speed to low 1st and 2nd gear speed, not braking in traffic on an oval. F1 cars have less mass to stop and tend to be easier to fling around. Jacque Vill. said that he enjoyed driving F1 because of it's lightness and responsiveness, and most of all - braking power and corner speed compared to IndyCar. I am impressed by the speed/traction relationship in GP2 where as the car slows down, you need to reduce brake force or the car starts to lock up. This is well implemented, and in a close up view of the back of the car during a replay, you can actually see the suspension lifting as the car slows and the wings provide less downforce. I must admit, ICR2 is probably more like a real racecar in terms of difficulty to drive, Geoff Crammond admitted that a primary consideration in developing GP2 was a compromise between realism and playability. In some ways, I think the difficulty in ICR2 is too high for a PC game. Not everyone has a steering wheel and pedals with which to increase control and make the realism more playable. After getting a wheel though, ICR2 became 10 times the game it was with a joystick. I like both games, and will avoid direct critisism of either, since there are enough idiots on this NG these days who do nothing but whinge and never say anything intelligent, moderate, complimentary, thought provoking or beneficial to those of us who want to get the most from our racing sims. Jet.

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> Excuss me, Hena. But I think you are wrong. Damon stated that he had > heard some unusual sound and he hopes was not his engine. In fact was > Bergers engine dying two laps before finishing the race. But the fact > is Damon said in the posterior press-conference that this was the only > time he had heard an engine other than his own cars. > You can unbelieve me when I say that F1 drivers dont hear anothers > motors but I hope you trust Damon. > By canci (nostromo Racing Team)

Damon's statement was irelevent to the fact that you can hear other cars. Its a fact that you can hear the other cars. I used to race carts and with all the head gear on(including earplugs) I was still able to hear the other carts quite clearly. In F1 the engines are just as loud if not louder than the chainsaw engines we ran with. Please dont take one statement outa context. In Germany, Damon stated afterward he heard what he thought was an engine go and said he hoped it was Berger's (the leader).

Here's something else I noticed about GP2 that doesn't seem quite accurate. I know that F1 engines have a very narrow band of usable rpm's. Here's the problem. If I'm in a long, fast, constant radius corner (say 3rd or 4th gear), it doesn't seem to matter to much what gear I'm in. Here's an example. Let's say I'm going through a corner in 3rd gear at a constant speed with 2 rpm lights lit up. From the point where I accelerate out of this corner until I reach the breaking point for the next corner, I have just reached maximum rpm's in 5th gear. But I can somehow duplicate this if I was taking the constant radius corner in 4th gear with none of the rpm lights lit up. I still reach maximum rpm's in 5th gear at the next corner. This doesn't seem possible with the small (if you consider ~500 lbs small) amount of torque that F1 motors generate and the small range (approx 2000-2500 rpms) that they are generated in. Has anybody else noticed this?

>Firstly, let me say that I like both simulations immensly, so this is not >an attempt to deride one against the other.I got a mate in the other night to try them both >back-to-back. He agreed that IC2 was much harder to drive. I couldn't agree more, both are great simulations but GP2 is far more difficult to driver than the ICR2. I was able to breeze around the Imola track and was up putting up some descent laps with all the driving aids shut off. ICR2 on the other hand is a handful just to drive on a road circuit, it took me forever to learn the Cleveland track and its relatively simple. Even the upshits/downshift in GP2 are far easier, and the car handles so much easier. GP2 is great, and becuase I love road tracks and ovals, I pretty much use GP2 for road coarses and ICR2 for oval racing. One thing is for certain the sound in GP2 is far superior to ICR2. PI

>> One thing is for certain >> the sound in GP2 is far superior to ICR2. >What sound!? You cant hear the other cars in GP2, In ICR2, even via >modem, I can hear my buddy >changing his gears! -DG Just so as you don`t get the wrong idea I`m not hounding you personally. I think the sound in GP2 is superior to ICR2. There are many more little effects in GP2. There has already been discussion as to whether or not you be able to hear another engine through earplugs, a helmet and 700 odd HP screaming away a few feet from your head. Would being able to hear another car`s gearshift be very realistic? You can hear other cars go past in GP2 if you are sitting in the pits although occasionally you get the engine noise without a car near. It seems to be right the majority of the time though. Maybe this is supposed to represent the fact that the engine wouldn`t be running and your helmet would be off. Or am I just using a little too much imagination? What a shame we don`t get to hear all of the GP2 samples about oil on the track and ruined tyres :-( Mark _________________________________ "..every lap I think `Oh bollocks! This is dreadful..`" Damon Hill __________________________________

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> > >> But the fact > > >> is Damon said in the posterior press-conference that this was the only > > >> time he had heard an engine other than his own cars. > > If Damon has said that it was the first time he heared an engine other > > than his own, I think you should believe that. It could well be that > > Bergers engine blew up with a lot of extra noise. He may well have > > heared that, but under normal circumstances you don't hear the engine > > of an opponent.

Well, maybe you heard it wrong or he was joking, who knows, The bottom line is and anyone who knows anything about F1 or CART knows that the drivers can hear the other cars, especially right beside them. So I wouldnt take one statement outa context. I didnt hear that statement and I really dont understand why Damon woulda said that, maybe hes going deaf. -DG

> I can honestly say that I've *NEVER* missed this feature, and going back > to ICR2 as I still do, I barely notice it. What's more I've never had > any crash through not knowing where a CC was - I'm past them so quickly > the sound wouldn't register anyway :) Haha, you must be racing on rookie!(BIG grin) No, really That statement was to dispute the fact that in real F1 cars you can hear the other cars! Another coal in the fire for GP2. Not being able to hear the other cars IS quite unrealistic and still convinces me of one other aspect of GP2 not being finished. Yes John, tis' true, I get a feel of where the other car is by just knowing how to run my line, but if you ever race modem you never know where the other guy is! Therefore I guess it doesnt matter "where" the other car is, because GP2's modem link isnt sufficient enough to run the SIM via modem. Adios, D. Gary

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> One thing is for certain > > the sound in GP2 is far superior to ICR2. > > PI > What sound!? You cant hear the other cars in GP2, In ICR2, even via > modem, I can hear my buddy > changing his gears! -DG

Actually, in F1 cars, it is extremely unusual to hear anybody else's engine. At this year's last race at Suzuka, Damon Hill and Gerhard Berger nearly collided at the Casio Chicane early in the race. Before the chicane, Damon had looked in his mirror, and decided Berger wasn't close enough to challenge. Berger tried to outbrake him for the corner, got partially alongside, but Damon took his normal line, not expecting a challenge, and he was lucky Berger went up on the curb to avoid a collision. Damon said as he was in the chicane, he was surprised to hear another car's engine. This was his only clue that he had almost been involved in a collision. He also said that it was the first time since his motorcycle racing days that he had heard a competitor's engine in a race! He also drove Formula Fords, Formula Three, and Formula 3000 cars before F1. So if he's not exaggerating, I'd say GP2 is pretty accurate. As far as Indycars, go, I don't know. You never hear the other cars when you are viewing the incar cameras on TV. Since I heard Damon's comment, I set other cars heard in ICR2 as low as it will go, 1. I wish I could set it to 0. Does anybody know of any comments by Indycar drivers on whether or not they ever hear other engines? -- "Feel Lucky, Scubaboy?" - Discovery Channel, Shark Week, 1995

<snip> <snip> I agree entirely. I was racing round Silverstone and had pulled out a huge lead, so much so that I was still in first after the first of my stops (or so I thought). Turning into Maggots I was very suprised to find my wheels interlocked with Hill`s. It turns out the pit wall had blocked him from my mirrors and as I pulled onto the circuit he had moved into the blind spot. This accident could have been avoided had I been able to hear his engine. Once again, it all boils down to the compromise between realism and playability. At that point I wished they had gone for playability ;-) Mark _________________________________ "..every lap I think `Oh bollocks! This is dreadful..`" Damon Hill __________________________________

Any car is easy to drive when you're not on the limit. GP2 is no different, and that's one of the things I find so realistic about it. Any of us could drive an F1 car, but when you start going <1:20 around Jerez, THAT'S when you find that the car isn't quite as easy to drive as you thought. No disrespect to you or your mate, but what laptimes where you turning? Cheers! John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ ________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____/ * Sim Racing News * \____|::|__| \ /______:/ \::/ http://sneezy.dcn.ed.ac.uk/simnews/index.htm \::/ \._____\ http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/~harmon/simnews

Realism too. Damon Hill has mentioned on a few occasions that the sound of the other engines is audible. He has even stated that when behind another F1 car, the noise is deafening in comparison to his own engine. Jet

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> >> One thing is for certain > >> the sound in GP2 is far superior to ICR2. > >What sound!? You cant hear the other cars in GP2, In ICR2, even via > >modem, I can hear my buddy > >changing his gears! -DG > Just so as you don`t get the wrong idea I`m not hounding you > personally. > I think the sound in GP2 is superior to ICR2. There are many more > little effects in GP2. > There has already been discussion as to whether or not you be able to > hear another engine through earplugs, a helmet and 700 odd HP > screaming away a few feet from your head. Would being able to hear > another car`s gearshift be very realistic?

I thought Damon Hill put an end to this argument in the post-race interview in Suzuka, when he commented Berger's wild passing attempt: "I didn't see Gerhard but I could hear him being very close" or something on those lines. He *definately* heard Berger's engine. So, yes, I thing hearing another car's gearshift VERY realistic! -- Henrikki (Hena) Hakkanen Tel. ?(9)0-345 5538 ------- The best way to accelerate a Mac is 9.81 m/s2 -------- -------------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are mine and does not necessarily reflect those of my employer!

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> <snip> > >> I think the sound in GP2 is superior to ICR2. There are many more > >> little effects in GP2. > >My reply was to the simple fact that hearing other cars and changing > >gears is still more exciting amd realistic than hearing no car at all > >beside you. Its very difficult to race a full race and not be able to > >hear or see the car your passing or being passed by, beside you. No > >matter how good you are its still very easy to get collected. > <snip> > I agree entirely. I was racing round Silverstone and had pulled out a > huge lead, so much so that I was still in first after the first of my > stops (or so I thought). Turning into Maggots I was very suprised to > find my wheels interlocked with Hill`s. It turns out the pit wall had > blocked him from my mirrors and as I pulled onto the circuit he had > moved into the blind spot. This accident could have been avoided had > I been able to hear his engine. Once again, it all boils down to the > compromise between realism and playability. At that point I wished > they had gone for playability ;-)

Obviously they didn't because you couldn't hear him ... (see my previous post). In real life drivers *CAN* hear other cars. On another occation, in Hockenheim, Hill said that he thought he heard something was wrong with Berger's engine just before it let go ... -- Henrikki (Hena) Hakkanen Tel. ?(9)0-345 5538 ------- The best way to accelerate a Mac is 9.81 m/s2 -------- -------------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are mine and does not necessarily reflect those of my employer!

Actually, at Germany, Damon Hill said he could hear berger's engine let go, kind of a ripping sound. I feel the sound in ICR2 is very VERY good, but not having GP2 myself, I could not make a camparison, but it's justt about having the right "opps engines heard" option set right. I have mine set at 10% to simulate this the best way.

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> True, but that is part of racing against human opponents. One current > formula 1 driver (can`t remember who, might have been JV) said after a > while you start to assosciate certain strengths and weaknesses with > certain cars. The same thing will happen while modem racing, if you > race the same person enough. It certainly did while I used to race > linked on F1GP (Ross, how many times was it I passed you into turn 1 > at Interlagos? Or into Tosa?). Similarly when you race someone you > haven`t raced before you`re not quite sure what they will do. I guess > that makes it very realistic then.

Yes tis' true to a degree, But Not being able to see the other cars, much less being able to hear them, makes the game harder to race against a human opponents. True,I know where my veteran ICR2 modem buddy likes to attempt to make a pass, But in GP2 you dont have any parifial vision as you do in real F1 and with no sound of the other cars or rear view mirrors of those that reflect ICR2, your kinda left, well, in a fog! If network capabilities ever come about, which I'm sure they will ,then we need something to help in knowing where the other cars are on the track, i.e. Hawaii, because we will always be racing against different people and therefore will be left to only "guess" what there next action will be on the track. I want to be able to race different competition and would like to have some type of help when staring at a monitor that only gives a "one perspective" view, to make up the perif and G force hat real drivers have. And yes I will still argue that they DO hear the other cars! Anyone thats ever raced any car, I think, can verify that. Their very different, except that they've both have 4 wheels, a steering wheel, an engine and both cars are LOUD!! I wasnt comparing the two in any other aspect. Evidently, You personally never raced anything but a simulator. The helmets are the same in just about all motor sports. Sure, their customised to fit F1 drivers heads and their top of the line, but there are no special "Sound proof" adapters in their helmets, to think so would be silly! The comments Hill Well, I'm really confused now! Whats your point? My statement is that You CAN hear the other cars in real F1 and not in GP2, You just retyped Hill's statement that he DID hear the other car, I never said he could distinquish between who's engine it was! After Suzuka Hill categorically stated that he hardly Wake up and read your own posts. He stated "hardly". Sounds like a very gray area. Very hard to understand what your trying to imply. I didnt say that F1 drivers could hear the other cars clear as a bell. They do hear them when their side by side though and it helps them to be aware of getting collected. An impractable statement, so no need to reply. Or Well I dont think the world champion is any of these! But I dont understand how you could reply to my post when Hill says in one statement he could hear the other engine and then he hardly ever hears the other cars. In both statements from him its sound like he heard the other car's engine in one way or the other. So whats YOUR point? David Gary _________________________________

> Obviously they didn't because you couldn't hear him ... (see my previous > post). In real life drivers *CAN* hear other cars. On another occation, > in Hockenheim, Hill said that he thought he heard something was wrong > with Berger's engine just before it let go ... Excuss me, Hena. But I think you are wrong. Damon stated that he had heard some unusual sound and he hopes was not his engine. In fact was Bergers engine dying two laps before finishing the race. But the fact is Damon said in the posterior press-conference that this was the only time he had heard an engine other than his own cars. You can unbelieve me when I say that F1 drivers dont hear anothers motors but I hope you trust Damon. By canci (nostromo Racing Team)

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>> There has already been discussion as to whether or not you be able to >> hear another engine through earplugs, a helmet and 700 odd HP >> screaming away a few feet from your head. Would being able to hear >> another car`s gearshift be very realistic? >I thought Damon Hill put an end to this argument in the post-race >interview in Suzuka, when he commented Berger's wild passing attempt: >"I didn't see Gerhard but I could hear him being very close" or >something on those lines. He *definately* heard Berger's engine. >So, yes, I thing hearing another car's gearshift VERY realistic!

I checked about the interview and you are right, Hill _did_ hear Berger`s engine. But (there alwys is one, isn`t there?) the actual quote Hill gave was "I heard another engine, for the first time since my motorbike racing days." Considering how long he has been with Williams and then the time (don`t know how long) he spent in lower formulas you`d have to conclude that hearing another car`s engine is a very rare occurance. However, after Berger`s retirement in Germany Hill said "as we accelerated out of the first chicane, I heard a strange noise from one of our engines". As it was Berger`s engine that blew up it appears it was the second time Hill had heard another engine. It still seems unusual to hear another engine, so on the point of realism I disagree with you. Quotes taken from Autosport. Mark _________________________________ "..every lap I think `Oh bollocks! This is dreadful..`" Damon Hill __________________________________

I can honestly say that I've *NEVER* missed this feature, and going back to ICR2 as I still do, I barely notice it. What's more I've never had any crash through not knowing where a CC was - I'm past them so quickly the sound wouldn't register anyway :) Seriously, by using mirrors regularly and knowing the size of gap you will fit through, it's easy to drive in close proximity. Cheers! John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ ________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____/ * Sim Racing News * \____|::|__| \ /______:/ \::/ http://sneezy.dcn.ed.ac.uk/simnews/index.htm \::/ \._____\ http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/~harmon/simnews

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>> But the fact >> is Damon said in the posterior press-conference that this was the only >> time he had heard an engine other than his own cars. >Damon's statement was irelevent to the fact that you can hear other >cars. Its a fact that you can hear the other cars. I used to race carts >and with all the head gear on(including earplugs) I was still able to >hear the other carts quite clearly. In F1 the engines are just as loud >if not louder than the chainsaw engines we ran with. Please dont take >one statement outa context. In Germany, Damon stated afterward he heard >what he thought was an engine go and said he hoped it was Berger's (the leader).

If Damon has said that it was the first time he heared an engine other than his own, I think you should believe that. It could well be that Bergers engine blew up with a lot of extra noise. He may well have heared that, but under normal circumstances you don't hear the engine of an opponent. Arnold

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> >> But the fact > >> is Damon said in the posterior press-conference that this was the only > >> time he had heard an engine other than his own cars. > >Damon's statement was irelevent to the fact that you can hear other > >cars. Its a fact that you can hear the other cars. I used to race carts > >and with all the head gear on(including earplugs) I was still able to > >hear the other carts quite clearly. In F1 the engines are just as loud > >if not louder than the chainsaw engines we ran with. Please dont take > >one statement outa context. In Germany, Damon stated afterward he heard > >what he thought was an engine go and said he hoped it was Berger's (the leader). > If Damon has said that it was the first time he heared an engine other > than his own, I think you should believe that. It could well be that > Bergers engine blew up with a lot of extra noise. He may well have > heared that, but under normal circumstances you don't hear the engine > of an opponent.

He definately heard Berger in Suzuka, when Berger tried to overtake him, nearly cutting his front wing off. Damon said that he didn't see Berger in his mirrors but heard that he was close. Maybe poor old Damon's hearing is getting better with age ... But the fact remains: Drivers CAN hear other cars! -- Henrikki (Hena) Hakkanen Tel. ?(9)0-345 5538 ------- The best way to accelerate a Mac is 9.81 m/s2 -------- -------------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are mine and does not necessarily reflect those of my employer!

> The comparison of Indy to a Phantom, and F1 to a Falcon > is the best damn comparison I have heard yet, and not I agree, and I would go a step further. I would say that an Indy Car can be easily compared to my friend Andrea, while F1 cars are a bit more like Massimo; now you all know Andrea and Massimo, don't you? :) Bye, Luca

> Hill stated on two occasions during the 1996 season that he heard another > engine (in one case he wasn't sure that it was another car's engine and > not his own). On both occasions he considered it suffiently significant > that he _had_ heard the engines. If he could hear them every race, it > wouldn't have been as worth mentioning. Maybe the 'ole chap IS going deaf, I mean how can you have thousands of hours in a F1 car and not be able to distinguish your own engine from another?!! Maybe the Englishman had to much champaine on the podium before the press conference!(grin) What noises?! Theres NO noise at all! Again I will disagree, One fact is that Hill does not get passed very much if at all and therefore he cannot hear another's engine, But, I dont understand, because I heard the press conference at Germany last season and Hill clearly stated that he heard what he thought was Bergers engine go! Berger was several car lengths in front of him when this happened so, there is no way in hell he cant hear a Formula engine blaring at 14000 rpm right beside him! Again, with absolutely NO sound what so ever from the other cars in GP2 IT is most UNREALISTIC!! (this is a pretty silly debate, dont you think?!) -DG Me too, but most important I hope they create a acceptable modem link patch!! Who wants to race a bunch of unrealistic and "predictable" AI?!! INTERACTION is everything!! and for Micrprose to obtain a modem link from a game that wasnt designed to handle the communications from GP2's program is UNACCEPTABLE and I will deter anyone away from purchasing this SIM that plans on playing modem! -DG

<snip> <snip> True, but that is part of racing against human opponents. One current formula 1 driver (can`t remember who, might have been JV) said after a while you start to assosciate certain strengths and weaknesses with certain cars. The same thing will happen while modem racing, if you race the same person enough. It certainly did while I used to race linked on F1GP (Ross, how many times was it I passed you into turn 1 at Interlagos? Or into Tosa?). Similarly when you race someone you haven`t raced before you`re not quite sure what they will do. I guess that makes it very realistic then. and then from other posts Right, I get the point that you`ve raced carts and could hear the other engines in that discipline. Still, unless I`ve missed something rather major a cart isn`t quite the same as a formula 1 car. Therefore just because you can hear another engine while carting it doesn`t mean that you can while driving an F1 car. The comments Hill made after Hockenheim seem to imply more than anything that it is almost impossible to tell one engine from the other (he said "as we accelerated out of the first chicane, I heard a strange noise from one of our engines"), not that he could clearly distinguish Bergers engine from his own. After Suzuka Hill categorically stated that he hardly ever hears another car`s engine in formula 1. Now let me get this right, fisrt we are not to "take one statement outa context" but then when a comment from the _same_ driver supposedly supports your point then we are to read things into it? I don`t think your arguments support you point on this one. If you go away, drive a formula one car for several years and _then_ tell me you can hear another engine in that discipline I`ll believe you. Or alternatively you could try showing me conclusive proof that Damon Hill is deaf/a compulsive liar/suffering from amnesia/doesn`t know what he`s talking about. Up until then I think I`ll believe Damon on this one. Mark _________________________________ "..every lap I think `Oh bollocks! This is dreadful..`" Damon Hill __________________________________

PMFJI Hill stated on two occasions during the 1996 season that he heard another engine (in one case he wasn't sure that it was another car's engine and not his own). On both occasions he considered it suffiently significant that he _had_ heard the engines. If he could hear them every race, it wouldn't have been as worth mentioning. At the obvious risk of putting words in Hill's mouth one implication of his statements might be that he only heard two other engines throughout the whole season - probably approx 2500 miles of racing for Hill. The evidence seems to point that GP2's handling of other engine noises is mostly realistic. _However_ in any future network upgrade, I would support the inclusion of other cars' engines as it would make driving in traffic much safer (and therefore more exciting). Cheers, Richard

Okay, I didn`t really put my point across in an understandable manner. I`l try and clear things up. <snipped stuff about mirrors> I was saying that because you can hear the engine in one it doesn`t always follow that you can hear the engine in the other (see below, I thought that was the one bit that _was_ clear). I didn`t mean to imply you couldn`t tell the difference between the two :-) True and I wish I did have the opportunity to drive racing cars/carts/bikes/sidecars (anything that will go some). However surely this discussion isn`t about what I have or have not driven, more about what you and I (and anyone else who cares to participate) would perceive to be realistic judging by Damon Hill`s comments after Suzuka and Hockenheim (and in this instance, your own experiences). I was trying to imply that the engines and driver surroundings are different, not the helmets or earplugs etc. <snip> The point was for all Hill knew he could have been hearing his own engine. It seems that most people have assumed that the noise came from Berger`s engine. It is possible that the noise actually came from Hill`s engine. He implies that he didn`t hear Berger`s engine clearly which is what I think you are asking to be able to do in GP2. Please correct me if I`ve got this wrong. Damn, I`ve been typing randomly in my sleep again ;-) Hardly in this case means once (possibly twice) in several full seasons driving for Williams, a couple of races for Brabham (or qualifying sessions?) and whatever years he spent in lower formulae. The reason I cite the two examples (even though they could _appear_ to work against my side of the discussion) is because in one Hill implies he couldn`t distinguish Berger`s engine from his own and in the other he clearly says that it was the***time he had heard another engine since his motorcycle racing days. Ergo, if you care to consider them, the quotes support my point. I was saying as Hill thinks/says it is so unusual to hear another engine while driving an F1 car it would be unrealistic to hear other engines all the time (or even regularly) in GP2. Ah. so you _did_ understand one bit :-) does "dont understand why Damon woulda said that, maybe hes going deaf. -DG" sound familiar? (Message-ID: turn to be confused ;-) Maybe even "Is the Englishman starting to get his hearing back? -DG" (Message-ID: realise going deaf and being deaf aren`t quite the same. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What was it you told me to do? Was it "Wake up and read your own posts"? He is saying that he heard the engine on one occasion and possibly did on the other but see above for the point (paragraph begins Hardly, ends GP2). That`s _twice_ in a _minimum of four seasons_. The fact that Hill saw fit to mention hearing the engines on these occasions would indicate to me that it is an unusual occurance and therefore it is realistic that you don`t hear other engines in GP2 (if he hears engines all the time why would he choose to draw attention to the fact that he heard them on these occasions?). Once again, my point is I THINK IT WOULD BE UNREALISTIC TO HEAR OTHER ENGINES IN GP2. Have I made myself clear now? FWIW I too would like to be able to hear the car`s engines to make driving in traffic that bit safer. I`m just saying that if you could I think it would be unrealistic. As a seperate point, is it simpy a coincidence that on both of these occasions Gerhard Berger was the other driver involved? Is the Renault louder than the other engines? Could this account for why Hill doesn`t (normally) hear other engines? I think I`ll go and lay down now before I burst an artery ;-) Mark _________________________________ "..every lap I think `Oh bollocks! This is dreadful..`" Damon Hill __________________________________

<g> and it was also done to death several months ago. Conclusion then was that the way other engines were modelled was realistic in all but exceptional circumstances <bg> Cheers, Richard

Agred. And the two occasions he heard them? Traversing the Jim Clark Curve (when his engine would be idling) and turning into *** (engine same). An F1 engine at full chat would be difficult to hear. Heck it would sound so similar to your own engine you would be lucky to tell them apart. Cheers! John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ ________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____/ * Sim Racing News * \____|::|__| \ /______:/ \::/ http://sneezy.dcn.ed.ac.uk/simnews/index.htm \._____\ [link lost in import: /~harmon/simnews]