Decent article:
http://www.gamespot.com/features/6103365/index.html
Notable threadGameSpot's history of Papyrus racing games
Jason Moyer linked GameSpot's feature on the history of Papyrus, prompting memories of wrecking AI in Indy 500, including Dave Kaemmer's own admission. Magnulus argued Papyrus self-destructed and that EA's more approachable games and career modes had merit, which drew strong replies that online racing was the heart of hardcore simming. Members then shared their histories in long-running leagues such as the Screamers GPL league and TPTCC.
Automated summary.
Jason Moyer <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Decent article:
>
> http://www.gamespot.com/features/6103365/index.html
Not bad, thanks for the link. A bit to heavy with rose colored glasses
imo, but a good read.
"Jason Moyer"wrote:
> Decent article:
>
> http://www.gamespot.com/features/6103365/index.html
Indeed, thanks for the link.
"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:lvWMc.8056$[email hidden]:
Papyrus made Nascar products? LOL!
dave henrie
Quoted text (10 lines)
> "Jason Moyer"wrote: > >> Decent article: >> >> http://www.gamespot.com/features/6103365/index.html > > Indeed, thanks for the link. > > > Papyrus self-destructed. That's what it sounds like to me (although no
doubt Vivendi's mismanagement of all their gaming software divisions was
part of the problem). EA's racing simulations/games are far more
approachable and don't just sell to gearheads and hardcore simulation nuts,
and as the many mods show, not all race simulation fans are adverse to EA's
approach.
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 03:26:25 -0400, "magnulus"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
> EA's racing simulations/games are far more
>approachable and don't just sell to gearheads and hardcore simulation nuts,
>and as the many mods show, not all race simulation fans are adverse to EA's
>approach.
ISI is no longer associated with EA, and I think you'll find that the
PC versions of Sierra's Nascar titles both sold better (regularly in
the top 10 in PC sales) and were better received than their EA
counterparts.
"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Decent article:
>
> http://www.gamespot.com/features/6103365/index.html
Funny to see that Kaemmer is one of the original "wreckers", and he recalls
(no doubt with a sheepish grin) that the Indy road course was the best one
for backwards driving, or just laying in wait on the front straight, as he
could take out almost the whole field in one accident. :-)
Stephen
p.s. tongue in cheek here; anything goes in an offline environment.
p.p.s. of course I also did this...
"Stephen F." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:41050a69$[email hidden]...
recalls
That should be "Indy oval".
Stephen
Quoted text (8 lines)
> > "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Decent article: > > > > http://www.gamespot.com/features/6103365/index.html > > Funny to see that Kaemmer is one of the original "wreckers", and heQuoted text (9 lines)
> (no doubt with a sheepish grin) that the Indy road course was the best one > for backwards driving, or just laying in wait on the front straight, as he > could take out almost the whole field in one accident. :-) > > Stephen > > p.s. tongue in cheek here; anything goes in an offline environment. > p.p.s. of course I also did this... >
"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> ISI is no longer associated with EA, and I think you'll find that the
> PC versions of Sierra's Nascar titles both sold better (regularly in
> the top 10 in PC sales) and were better received than their EA
> counterparts.
I expect PC sales of NASCAR Thunder on PC wouldn't be too high. It's a
new series, and PC games don't sell as well as console games. But that
hardly means that NASCAR Thunder has been a failure on the PC. It seems to
sell fairly well on consoles too. Let's not forget Infogrames Dirt to
Daytona (that would make a good PC game, too bad...).
I hate to say "The Emperor has no Clothes", but there are several things
that Papyrus got wrong with their games. First off, NASCAR stock cars have
power steering. This is simulated in NASCAR HEAT, NASCAR Thunder, but not
in any of Papyrus NASCAR games. Why is that? At best, you get some speed
sensitivity at low settings. You can really feel this if you play the games
with a force feedback wheel- the forces are raw, ragged, overwhelming, and
the degree of steering you need changes with the speed (like a riding
lawnmower or go-kart going 200 mph). And why do people praise EA's F-1 for
it's physics, and slam NASCAR Thunder's physics in the same breath? It's
the same gosh darn physics engine in both games. One cannot be good, and
the other bad.
And let's not mention the total absence of a career mode, or any other
frills, in Papyrus games. The only focus that they did well at was online
racing. Granted, it's no small feat to get 42 players online all on one
server playing the same game, racing around a virtual world at high speeds.
And for that, they deserve praise. But beyond that, as games, they are
sterile affairs that will only appeal to hardcore "sim-ers" (can't use the
word game with these folks) who hold their noses up in the air ever so
slightly above the rest of us.
For a design team that claims to have realism down to a T, so many other
developers have done a good job, but haven't gotten the credit due to them.
And that's unfair. How bad it is that every single racing developer will
have the ghost of Papyrus haunting them forever. Like the champ boxer that
retires with the title, every other developer will have to live up to this
guy they can never hope to beat.
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:43:06 +0200, Stephen F. wrote:
>
> Funny to see that Kaemmer is one of the original "wreckers", and he recalls
> (no doubt with a sheepish grin) that the Indy road course was the best one
> for backwards driving, or just laying in wait on the front straight, as he
> could take out almost the whole field in one accident. :-)
I confess... me too! ;-) The accidents in Indy 500 on the amiga were
spectacular in its day, and I thoroughly enjoyed causing a few of
those myself ;-)
uwe
--
mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox)
Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/
Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E)
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:38:45 -0400, magnulus wrote:
>
> And let's not mention the total absence of a career mode, or any other
> frills, in Papyrus games. The only focus that they did well at was online
> racing. Granted, it's no small feat to get 42 players online all on one
> server playing the same game, racing around a virtual world at high speeds.
I think you're partly missing the point on what racing means for most
hardcore simracing enthusiasts. It's getting into shape online and
offline for online races, so to them / us, the online aspect is where
it's at and a core feature of the product, not a mindless add-on to
boast on the box.
Once you've spent the better half of a decade racing friends in a
league, it becomes an aspect you don't want to miss in any new
release.
Cheers,
uwe
--
mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox)
Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/
Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E)
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61
"Uwe Sch�rkamp" wrote:
> Once you've spent the better half of a decade racing friends in a
> league, it becomes an aspect you don't want to miss in any new
> release.
Absolutely. An offline career mode is fun but without the online aspect sits
once completed it just sits on the shelf just like an FPS.
"Stephen F." wrote:
> Funny to see that Kaemmer is one of the original "wreckers", and he
> recalls
> (no doubt with a sheepish grin) that the Indy road course was the best one
> for backwards driving, or just laying in wait on the front straight, as he
> could take out almost the whole field in one accident. :-)
I remember being amazed at the shower of triangles on first impact. Yes I
too admit to indulging in starting some wild accidents. Triggering it off
and then seeing this mass of debris flying in the air next time around and
avoiding the stricken cars without lifting are still a fond memory 14 years
on (whoosh, where did that go?)
All in glorious 320x200 and I thought it looked great :)
"magnulus" wrote:
> Papyrus self-destructed. That's what it sounds like to me (although no
> doubt Vivendi's mismanagement of all their gaming software divisions was
> part of the problem). EA's racing simulations/games are far more
> approachable and don't just sell to gearheads and hardcore simulation
> nuts, and as the many mods show, not all race simulation fans are adverse
> to EA's approach.
Once the cash cow of Nascar sims was lost due to Sierra no longer having the
license there was no real use for Papyrus at Vivendi. There were all sorts
of rumours they were to move into consoles.
To the hardcore simmers this was a scandalous waste, which is neither a
pompous nor superior stance, simply that moving one of the few talents
capable of providing hardcore sims into an area already well served simply
seemed a loss.
Whilst the loyal few will mourn the loss of Papyrus, the future now looks
far more promising without Sierra and Vivendi at the helm, and we may see
another open wheeler from Kaemmer.
I would hope there is a place for niche developers to co-exist with the
mainstream. Even if we do have to admit to being gearheads...
I think they had an AWFUL lot of help from a couple of "could give a crap
less" corporations that controlled them.
-Larry
"magnulus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:tm2Nc.21923$[email hidden]...
> Papyrus self-destructed. That's what it sounds like to me (although no
> doubt Vivendi's mismanagement of all their gaming software divisions was
> part of the problem). EA's racing simulations/games are far more
> approachable and don't just sell to gearheads and hardcore simulationnuts,
> and as the many mods show, not all race simulation fans are adverse toEA's
> approach.
>
>
Uwe 'Gets' it :)
Half a decade? Damn, you know, it HAS been 3 or 4 years since my first run
with Rascar (I forget now). I will NOT forget the first day.
-Larry
"Uwe Sch�rkamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:38:45 -0400, magnulus wrote:
> >
> > And let's not mention the total absence of a career mode, or any other
> > frills, in Papyrus games. The only focus that they did well at wasonline
> > racing. Granted, it's no small feat to get 42 players online all on one
> > server playing the same game, racing around a virtual world at highspeeds.
Quoted text (21 lines)
> > I think you're partly missing the point on what racing means for most > hardcore simracing enthusiasts. It's getting into shape online and > offline for online races, so to them / us, the online aspect is where > it's at and a core feature of the product, not a mindless add-on to > boast on the box. > > Once you've spent the better half of a decade racing friends in a > league, it becomes an aspect you don't want to miss in any new > release. > > Cheers, > > uwe > > > -- > mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) > Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ > Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) > GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61Anyone who says they haven't gone backwards in an offline race to see just
how much maylee they could cause (or to see the BIZARRE reactions of the AI
drivers) is either lying or can't steer to the right :)
-Larry
"Stephen F." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:41050a69$[email hidden]...
recalls
Quoted text (8 lines)
> > "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Decent article: > > > > http://www.gamespot.com/features/6103365/index.html > > Funny to see that Kaemmer is one of the original "wreckers", and heQuoted text (10 lines)
> (no doubt with a sheepish grin) that the Indy road course was the best one > for backwards driving, or just laying in wait on the front straight, as he > could take out almost the whole field in one accident. :-) > > Stephen > > p.s. tongue in cheek here; anything goes in an offline environment. > p.p.s. of course I also did this... > >
"Uwe Sch�rkamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:38:45 -0400, magnulus wrote:
> >
> > And let's not mention the total absence of a career mode, or any other
> > frills, in Papyrus games. The only focus that they did well at wasonline
> > racing. Granted, it's no small feat to get 42 players online all on one
> > server playing the same game, racing around a virtual world at highspeeds.
IAWTP uwe, this guy seems to like the gaming aspect and doesn't truly
understand the simming aspect. In those terms, EA was not even close to
being in the same state, much less the same ball park, as Papy and their
NASCAR sims.
EA "swears" they are going to go after and win over the simmers and bring
them into the small fold of gamers that already play the NASCAR Blunder
series. We'll see. If they can't get the damage, physics and online features
implemented close to where Papy left off, it will be a mighty uphill
struggle. Us PC "simmers" could really care less about photorealism and
useless features like a career mode, or how well it ported from the console
to PC. IMHO anyway. True sims are written for PC and ported to consoles to
begin with. We'll see how well EA can do this in reverse...
Quoted text (16 lines)
> > I think you're partly missing the point on what racing means for most > hardcore simracing enthusiasts. It's getting into shape online and > offline for online races, so to them / us, the online aspect is where > it's at and a core feature of the product, not a mindless add-on to > boast on the box. > > Once you've spent the better half of a decade racing friends in a > league, it becomes an aspect you don't want to miss in any new > release. > > Cheers, > > uwe > >On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:38:45 -0400, "magnulus"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
> I expect PC sales of NASCAR Thunder on PC wouldn't be too high. It's a
>new series, and PC games don't sell as well as console games. But that
>hardly means that NASCAR Thunder has been a failure on the PC. It seems to
>sell fairly well on consoles too. Let's not forget Infogrames Dirt to
>Daytona (that would make a good PC game, too bad...).
Console sales are irrelevant if you're talking about sims, since
there's been a total of 2 sims I can think of that have ever been
released on a console, and I'm pretty sure F355 was a disaster
sales-wise and RBR was released fully expecting it not do as well as
the PC version.
> I hate to say "The Emperor has no Clothes", but there are several things
>that Papyrus got wrong with their games. First off, NASCAR stock cars have
>power steering. This is simulated in NASCAR HEAT, NASCAR Thunder, but not
>in any of Papyrus NASCAR games.
It is? I've never found any way to adjust power steering in either of
those titles, and there's nothing in the physics parameters for either
that has anything to do with power steering. In N2003 (and NT for
that matter) you can emulate it by adjusting linearity and force
effects anyway.
>>lawnmower or go-kart going 200 mph). And why do people praise EA's F-1 for
>it's physics, and slam NASCAR Thunder's physics in the same breath? It's
>the same gosh darn physics engine in both games. One cannot be good, and
>the other bad.
Probably because the stock car modelling is total shit. It's the same
reason people can praise GTR or F1C cars and dislike the many hastily
put together mods. I never had the impression ISI knew much about
NASCAR, nor did they really seem to care about the license the way
they did with the F1 titles.
> And let's not mention the total absence of a career mode, or any other
>frills, in Papyrus games.
If you want a game with a career mode, buy a PS2 and play Gran Turismo
or something. The intended market for a Papyrus sim is the same as
the intended market for a game like IL-2 or Mig Alley or Flight
Simulator. People who want a believable experience first and
foremost, with everything else being a bonus.
> The only focus that they did well at was online
>racing.
Aside from having the best tracks, the best tire model, the best
suspension model, the best aero model, the best uh...er nevermind I
guess that could go on for awhile.
> But beyond that, as games, they are
>sterile affairs that will only appeal to hardcore "sim-ers" (can't use the
>word game with these folks) who hold their noses up in the air ever so
>slightly above the rest of us.
Bingo. There are those of us who want sims, and not some watered down
game experience that we can already get from a plethora of sources.
Nobody has dedicated themselves to perfecting the experience of
simulated driving like Dave Kaemmer, and unlike most of his
competitors and people who criticize him, he has real life experience
behind the wheel of a variety of real race cars. I think the fanbase
of N2003 (which includes almost every active Nextel, Busch, and CTS
driver) speaks for itself.
Jason
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:44:35 -0400, Larry wrote:
> Uwe 'Gets' it :)
>
> Half a decade? Damn, you know, it HAS been 3 or 4 years since my first run
> with Rascar (I forget now). I will NOT forget the first day.
>
Thanks Larry ;-) I've been part of the "Screamers Racing League" for
well over five years now, we've been racing GPL since shortly after its
release. Founded by the great Jeff "Murchman" Murchison and his dad
nicknamed "senior", we feature remarkably low fluctuation and
interesting conversations on the mailing list, both on racing and most
of life's other issues.
cheers,
uwe
--
mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox)
Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/
Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E)
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61
Magnulus,
I see this as a 1/10ths full VS 9/10ths empty arguement with you. as I
see it, you see the 2 or 3 things that just might be more realistic about a
game that is 9/10ths arcade BS, but then also like to nitpic the 3 things
that are "arcady" about a 9/10ths decent simulator... .
It is wierd to watch you proclaim exactly the opposite of what has been
more or less proven over time, with sales, remarks from Real life drivers,
and even what is in use to this day (Papy's NR'series)... All of which,
the success-nor-realism cannot yet and has not been duplicated yet
respectively... add to that there have been several interviews or exposays
about real Nascar Drivers, talking about sims they drive over the last
year...
It speaks volumes to me, that of the 2 handfull's of tittles out there
since NR(1), Papyrus is picked by real NASCAR drivers over just about
anything out there, online or offline. Lets face it, Dale Jr has the money
& inclination to get whatever is available (and has enough money to get what
isnt yet available if he really wanted to) and they run NR2003... so what
gives?
BTW, I have a playstation that dont mean I simulate real innercity life,
playing GrandTheftAuto on it either, mostly because back when I held up
liquor stores and killed prostitutes or stole cars, I didnt have some funky
ass key combination to press on a joypad, It just aint realstic... :P
magnulus wrote:
Quoted text (43 lines)
> "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> ISI is no longer associated with EA, and I think you'll find that the >> PC versions of Sierra's Nascar titles both sold better (regularly in >> the top 10 in PC sales) and were better received than their EA >> counterparts. > > I expect PC sales of NASCAR Thunder on PC wouldn't be too high. > It's a new series, and PC games don't sell as well as console games. > But that hardly means that NASCAR Thunder has been a failure on the > PC. It seems to sell fairly well on consoles too. Let's not forget > Infogrames Dirt to Daytona (that would make a good PC game, too > bad...). > > I hate to say "The Emperor has no Clothes", but there are several > things that Papyrus got wrong with their games. First off, NASCAR > stock cars have power steering. This is simulated in NASCAR HEAT, > NASCAR Thunder, but not in any of Papyrus NASCAR games. Why is that? > At best, you get some speed sensitivity at low settings. You can > really feel this if you play the games with a force feedback wheel- > the forces are raw, ragged, overwhelming, and the degree of steering > you need changes with the speed (like a riding lawnmower or go-kart > going 200 mph). And why do people praise EA's F-1 for it's physics, > and slam NASCAR Thunder's physics in the same breath? It's the same > gosh darn physics engine in both games. One cannot be good, and the > other bad. > > And let's not mention the total absence of a career mode, or any > other frills, in Papyrus games. The only focus that they did well at > was online racing. Granted, it's no small feat to get 42 players > online all on one server playing the same game, racing around a > virtual world at high speeds. And for that, they deserve praise. But > beyond that, as games, they are sterile affairs that will only appeal > to hardcore "sim-ers" (can't use the word game with these folks) who > hold their noses up in the air ever so slightly above the rest of us. > > For a design team that claims to have realism down to a T, so many > other developers have done a good job, but haven't gotten the credit > due to them. And that's unfair. How bad it is that every single > racing developer will have the ghost of Papyrus haunting them > forever. Like the champ boxer that retires with the title, every > other developer will have to live up to this guy they can never hope > to beat."Uwe Sch�rkamp" wrote:
> Thanks Larry ;-) I've been part of the "Screamers Racing League" for
> well over five years now, we've been racing GPL since shortly after its
> release. Founded by the great Jeff "Murchman" Murchison and his dad
> nicknamed "senior", we feature remarkably low fluctuation and
> interesting conversations on the mailing list, both on racing and most
> of life's other issues.
My first league race was in December 98. I was second to a certain John
Simmons as I recall with ZZ Busch a couple of places behind...
It was pretty dedicated stuff for the Brits as it ran at 03:00, but at the
time there were no cable or ADSL connections in the UK.
I still race and enjoy online pick up and offline races, but for me by far
the best gaming experience is online league sim racing. As Uwe says not just
for the on track racing but also the friendship.
Cheers
Tony
"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:38:45 -0400, "magnulus"
> <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Aside from having the best tracks, the best tire model, the best
> suspension model, the best aero model, the best uh...er nevermind I
> guess that could go on for awhile.
No.
> > But beyond that, as games, they are
> >sterile affairs that will only appeal to hardcore "sim-ers" (can't usethe
The article still had some of those comments that always made me
roll my eyes.
"Nevertheless, Grand Prix Legends was--and quite likely still is--the
ultimate in extreme realism."
After not running this sim since '98, I decided to re-install the other
night and use the
new demo to make a quick update (looks much better).
After an hour and a half of practice with the AI on track at WG (in the
Ferrari), I was able to
get pole, and finished in second one second behind the leader (they had a
much
better start).
Tried the Lotus last night with the default qual setup, and got pole again,
and
finished first, 5 seconds ahead in a 9 lap race after trailing for the first
4 laps (perfect start by one driver again).
Since it's been years since I ran GPL, and I didn't run it much even then
after finishing VROC beta, I would say that this game was absolutely new to
me once again. I approached it the same way I approach any driving sim or
arcade
racer. I
think people (especially older simmers) wanted to badly believe the above
quote (so thy can seperate themselves from arcaders), and then thought WAY
too much about how to drive this sim. Like all
of them, you just steer, brake, shift. Did the same thing in POD. :-o
No *ultimate* realism that I noticed. Had fun though.
Once again, just like six years ago, it was *immediately* apparent that the
tires had too little grip. Never understood how that could of been so
vehemently denied by so many here. Finally admitted the truth to themselves
after about four years (and Kaemmer saying it himself). I did enjoy myself,
but this never ending "Papyrus
makes the most ultra-realistic sims" stuff is just nonsense. F1C is easily a
more realistic experience IMO.
You can drive GPL like any other sim, and the results will be the same.
Bottom line, it's just
a game like all the rest. :-)
David G Fisher
Quoted text (13 lines)
> >word game with these folks) who hold their noses up in the air ever so > >slightly above the rest of us. > > Bingo. There are those of us who want sims, and not some watered down > game experience that we can already get from a plethora of sources. > Nobody has dedicated themselves to perfecting the experience of > simulated driving like Dave Kaemmer, and unlike most of his > competitors and people who criticize him, he has real life experience > behind the wheel of a variety of real race cars. I think the fanbase > of N2003 (which includes almost every active Nextel, Busch, and CTS > driver) speaks for itself. > > Jason"David G Fisher" wrote:
DGF and GPL - just like the old days! - a sleeping giant awakes...
> Tried the Lotus last night with the default qual setup, and got pole
> again, and
> finished first, 5 seconds ahead in a 9 lap race after trailing for the
> first 4 laps (perfect start by one driver again).
You will find some AI tweaks for the experienced sim racer. You don't say
what difficulty level you are on. Plus GPL speeds up to your pace after a
few races...
> No *ultimate* realism that I noticed. Had fun though.
Running cars with limited grip, no traction control and no wings is fun. It
probably explains why some prefer it to modern day F1, even those who had no
interest in historic racing (like me before GPL). Also as we have debated
before some prefer the Papy style of physics modelling in that it feels more
natural to them, but I would be the first to agree there are no right
answers, it comes down to preference.
> Once again, just like six years ago, it was *immediately* apparent that
> the
> tires had too little grip. Never understood how that could of been so
> vehemently denied by so many here. Finally admitted the truth to
> themselves after about four years (and Kaemmer saying it himself).
After running the 1965 mod which has revised grip levels I would agree. If
you get time give it a go, it is a worthy experience and updates what you
correctly describe as a flaw in the original model.
> I did enjoy myself,
> but this never ending "Papyrus
> makes the most ultra-realistic sims" stuff is just nonsense. F1C is easily
> a more realistic experience IMO.
It does work extremely well on-line though and probably still gives the
greatest experience of on-line racing on road courses available even now
with the 65 mod.
> You can drive GPL like any other sim, and the results will be the same.
> Bottom line, it's just
> a game like all the rest. :-)
Troll !!!!
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:15:39 -0400, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]>
wrote:
<snip a pile of shit I've responded to before>
>F1C is easily a
>more realistic experience IMO.
F1C fails in the two areas I care the most about in a sim. Tracks,
and tire model. Now, to be fair, GPL fails in both of these areas to
about the same extent (slightly better tracks, slightly worse tire
model) but in the end, N2003 is the only sim I know of with a
realistic depiction of tire deformation with speed. It's lacking a
good brake model, which imho is its biggest weak point besides some
niggles with aero, but overall it's a damn good simulation and it is
being used by real drivers to train for real events, which is
ultimately what most simulators are designed for.
That said, until GTR and RBR come out F1C is an easy 2nd or 3rd for me
depending on whether I'm more pissed off at it or GPL. There are some
things I prefer about GP4 but the driving experience, while generally
underrated, just isn't as good.
>You can drive GPL like any other sim, and the results will be the same.
You can drive GPL unlike the way the cars would really be driven, and
ultimately be incredibly fast. It's a good sim, but I don't think
it's stood the test of time as well as most do. If more historic sims
would be released with the same simulation-based mindset I doubt
people would be going gaga over it still. It sucks that we have
dozens of simulators covering every aspect of the WWII airwar, but
exactly one that covers pre-modern racing.
Jason
"SimRacer" <nospam@[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:gpdNc.156522$[email hidden]...
> IAWTP uwe, this guy seems to like the gaming aspect and doesn't truly
> understand the simming aspect. In those terms, EA was not even close to
> being in the same state, much less the same ball park, as Papy and their
> NASCAR sims.
You can have both a simulation and a game, they are not mutually
exclusive. How is a career mode not a simulation of something that happens
in real life?
I like career modes. Dirt Track Racing and Leadfoot have some great
career modes, and its good NASCAR Thunder for the PC finally got one too.
You start thinking strategicly when every crash or bump you make costs you
money and can hurt you in the long run.
>
> EA "swears" they are going to go after and win over the simmers and bring
> them into the small fold of gamers that already play the NASCAR Blunder
> series. We'll see. If they can't get the damage, physics and onlinefeatures
> implemented close to where Papy left off,
You totally ignored the bit where I said Papyrus got the physics wrong.
Real stock cars have power steering, but the cars in Papyrus games do not.
It might not make a difference to you, but stop pretending that Papyrus has
the market cornered on physical simulations.
>it will be a mighty uphill
> struggle. Us PC "simmers" could really care less about photorealism and
> useless features like a career mode
Not a useless feature, if like me you race mostly off-line.
Have you even played NASCAR Thunder 2004? Or F1-C? Or NASCAR HEAT?
"Papy" had plenty of competition, it's just some people didn't want to take
the blinders off.
"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Console sales are irrelevant if you're talking about sims, since
> there's been a total of 2 sims I can think of that have ever been
> released on a console, and I'm pretty sure F355 was a disaster
> sales-wise and RBR was released fully expecting it not do as well as
> the PC version.
Stop being so arrogant, OK?
NASCAR HEAT and NASCAR Thunder on the PS2 both qualify as a simulation.
You can make the physics just as demanding as the PC versions. Also, Dirt
to Daytona is definitely in the "simulation" category, though you do have to
unlock the hardest physical modelling level. The Formula 1 series by EA
games is also on the console.
And Gran Turismo definitely is a simulation in many ways. Sure, there is
no damage modelling but it gets many other things right.
> It is? I've never found any way to adjust power steering in either of
> those titles, and there's nothing in the physics parameters for either
> that has anything to do with power steering.
Adjust the speed sensitivity of the control. Speed sensitivity is a part
of most power steering mechanisms. Even Sports Car GT from ISI had speed
sensitivity.
Linearity is not the same as speed sensitivity.
> I never had the impression ISI knew much about
> NASCAR, nor did they really seem to care about the license the way
> they did with the F1 titles.
ISI isn't working on NASCAR Thunder, I believe it is Tiburon or some other
EA developement team.
There's a "cult of Papyrus" that says they can do no wrong, that their
games are the right way, blah blah blah. It's like arguing with a Jehovah's
Wittness, ultimately it's just a waste of breath. They have the convictions
that would make the Jesuits envious.
I think we need a new newsgroup. Comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.racing. For
discussiong would be any racing game, no matter wheather it was sim or
arcade, or anywhere in between. Papyrus fans would be welcome but the focus
of the group would be racing games in general.
What rubbish!
Grand Prix Legends, for example, has been a fixture on my series of computer
systems since The Day and yet I have only once raced online with it.
Even now I am bashing it to death once again as I enjoy the 1965 mod.
Geoff Crammond's "Grand Prix" series - up to and including GP3 - was also a
fixture yet the only leagues I ever took part in were off-line.
So please don't generalise.
Bruce.
"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:tsbNc.8509$[email hidden]...
> Absolutely. An offline career mode is fun but without the online aspectsits
> once completed it just sits on the shelf just like an FPS.
"magnulus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:2A9Nc.1904$[email hidden]...
>
> And let's not mention the total absence of a career mode, or any other
> frills, in Papyrus games. The only focus that they did well at was online
> racing. Granted, it's no small feat to get 42 players online all on one
> server playing the same game, racing around a virtual world at highspeeds.
> And for that, they deserve praise. But beyond that, as games, they are
> sterile affairs that will only appeal to hardcore "sim-ers" (can't use the
> word game with these folks) who hold their noses up in the air ever so
> slightly above the rest of us.
This is simple - any "sim" released post GPL that doesn't do multiplay
properly like Papy sims is worth nothing. About the only thing I use AI for
these days is to check where cars slow down to pit speed limits - end of
story. It's the same old story - there's those that wanna jump on in and kid
themselves they're Jack Brabham (quick fix) and then there's those that want
a "sim". Racing against human controlled cars is infinantly more realistic
than AI - in fact that aspect is not even sim - it IS reality. With what
Papy offer with GPL and Nascar 2003 + mods, there will be no need to look at
anything that fails to equal these titles so far as multiplay is concerned -
not in my book anyway. I hope GTR is done right.
"magnulus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:JRjNc.18582$[email hidden]...
>
> You can have both a simulation and a game, they are not mutually
> exclusive. How is a career mode not a simulation of something thathappens
> in real life?
>
But why would you want a company wasting time on that? Most of the
freaks can't even get multiplay right! Join a league - there's your career
mode right there pal! :) Why simulate what you can have on the net, in real
life, anyway?
>
> You totally ignored the bit where I said Papyrus got the physics wrong.
> Real stock cars have power steering, but the cars in Papyrus games do not.
> It might not make a difference to you, but stop pretending that Papyrushas
> the market cornered on physical simulations.
>
Papy do simulate that - it's called a non FF wheel!
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Once again, just like six years ago, it was *immediately* apparent thatthe
> tires had too little grip. Never understood how that could of been so
> vehemently denied by so many here. Finally admitted the truth tothemselves
> after about four years (and Kaemmer saying it himself). I did enjoymyself,
> but this never ending "Papyrus
> makes the most ultra-realistic sims" stuff is just nonsense. F1C is easilya
> more realistic experience IMO.
>
I don't know who to agree/disagree with here. Has GPL got too little
grip or has the TA mod for N2003 got too much? :) After spending the last 4
months with TA I'll bet I'd be one of the "GPL is too slippery" advocates. I
remember thinking TA was hooking up too well when I first started doing
laps, especially on the GPL tracks where direct comparison is possible. But
the technological differences are so great that I'm able to give the TA
physics the benefit of the doubt at least. Seems very realistic to me -
since times at Bathurst are 4 sec quicker than V8 Supercars, about exactly
what you'd expect from engines spinning about 500 rpm more and a little more
rubber, I'm very convinced. It's easy to jump to the conclusion that if it's
not as difficult as GPL then it's not as realistic.
"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:tJbNc.8535$[email hidden]...
> "magnulus" wrote:
>
> > Papyrus self-destructed. That's what it sounds like to me (althoughno
> > doubt Vivendi's mismanagement of all their gaming software divisionswas
> > part of the problem). EA's racing simulations/games are far more
> > approachable and don't just sell to gearheads and hardcore simulation
> > nuts, and as the many mods show, not all race simulation fans areadverse
> > to EA's approach.
>
> Once the cash cow of Nascar sims was lost due to Sierra no longer havingthe
> license there was no real use for Papyrus at Vivendi. There were all sorts
> of rumours they were to move into consoles.
>
One of the VU big wigs was seen in a shop recently, wallet bulging,
asking to buy a real hard core sim. He got all upset when the salesman told
him that the market was full of shit for brains monopoly players and thus no
such thing was available. In fact, the whole planet was full of so many
pitiful products that it made having excess money almost meaningful. The VU
fella continued to be in disbelief that all his money couldn't get him a
good sim and continued ranting to himself. Out of nowhere, this other bloke,
rumoured to be a hardcore simmer, pulled a gun and blew the ranter's head
clean off. He then put the gun away and walked out of the store shaking his
head, never to be seen again!
On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 05:22:24 GMT, "Byron Forbes"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
> I don't know who to agree/disagree with here. Has GPL got too little
>grip or has the TA mod for N2003 got too much? :)
Both.
Jason
"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> What rubbish!
>
> Grand Prix Legends, for example, has been a fixture on my series ofcomputer
> systems since The Day and yet I have only once raced online with it.
> Even now I am bashing it to death once again as I enjoy the 1965 mod.
>
> Geoff Crammond's "Grand Prix" series - up to and including GP3 - was alsoa
Quoted text (13 lines)
> fixture yet the only leagues I ever took part in were off-line. > > So please don't generalise. > > Bruce. > > "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:tsbNc.8509$[email hidden]... > > Absolutely. An offline career mode is fun but without the online aspect > sits > > once completed it just sits on the shelf just like an FPS. > >"Bruce Kennewell" wrote:
> What rubbish!
>
> Grand Prix Legends, for example, has been a fixture on my series ofcomputer
> systems since The Day and yet I have only once raced online with it.
> Even now I am bashing it to death once again as I enjoy the 1965 mod.
Bruce, I was referring to career modes as referred to by the other poster,
where you start in a lower series and work your way up. A bit like an FPS
once you have done it on the hardest level do you start it over again?
Rather than general offline racing against the AI. If that is decent enough
then that can be equally good fun, but most career mode games I have seen
don't have that quality of AI, the challenge is getting up the ladder. I am
generalising again so I'll stop there :)
"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:ponNc.9003$[email hidden]...
> Bruce, I was referring to career modes as referred to by the other poster,
> where you start in a lower series and work your way up. A bit like an FPS
> once you have done it on the hardest level do you start it over again?
>
> Rather than general offline racing against the AI. If that is decentenough
> then that can be equally good fun, but most career mode games I have seen
> don't have that quality of AI, the challenge is getting up the ladder. Iam
> generalising again so I'll stop there :)
>
>
If you can beat all these games on high difficulty, then you have my
respect (I seriously doubt you have beat GPL, though).
However, I have not beat them all on high difficulty. And my guess is
that it is quite hard to do so. So I can be safely sure there will always
be some challenge in the singleplayer games.
"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> But why would you want a company wasting time on that? Most of the
> freaks can't even get multiplay right! Join a league - there's your career
> mode right there pal! :) Why simulate what you can have on the net, inreal
> life, anyway?
>
Most people cannot have a real life racing career. That's the most
obvious difference.
Also, why should I jump on the net? Can I be sure that I won't just end
up spoiling everybody else's fun? How would I be pitted against players of
similar experience and ability?
Maybe in the future they will be able to integrate a multiplayer game as
part of a career mode. It wouldn't be impossible. Motor City Online was a
failure, but that doesn't mean other efforts would be doomed.
>
> Papy do simulate that - it's called a non FF wheel!
That's not the same. FF doesn't change the fact there is no speed
sensitive steering, it just takes away the feedback.
"magnulus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:sInNc.19852$[email hidden]...
>
> "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > But why would you want a company wasting time on that? Most of the
> > freaks can't even get multiplay right! Join a league - there's yourcareer
of
> similar experience and ability?
>
> Maybe in the future they will be able to integrate a multiplayer game as
> part of a career mode. It wouldn't be impossible. Motor City Online wasa
FWIW, the speed-sensitive steering settings many driving games have used
over the years (though never Papy as I recall) have nothing whatsoever to do
with simulating real world power steering. All they do is reduce your raw
inputs by some factor as your speed increases, and in fact were originally
kludges to simulate the lack of inertial effects in the physics modeling.
Once proper physics models were introduced, it became a redundant feature,
though obviously one some people still wanted to see. It's basically become
a help-feature along the lines of ABS or TC. But one would be mistaken to
call it realistic. Does reality have a slider? ;-)
Quoted text (10 lines)
> > mode right there pal! :) Why simulate what you can have on the net, in > real > > life, anyway? > > > > Most people cannot have a real life racing career. That's the most > obvious difference. > > Also, why should I jump on the net? Can I be sure that I won't just end > up spoiling everybody else's fun? How would I be pitted against playersQuoted text (7 lines)
> failure, but that doesn't mean other efforts would be doomed. > > > > > Papy do simulate that - it's called a non FF wheel! > > That's not the same. FF doesn't change the fact there is no speed > sensitive steering, it just takes away the feedback.On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 03:43:27 -0400, magnulus wrote:
> Also, why should I jump on the net? Can I be sure that I won't just end
> up spoiling everybody else's fun? How would I be pitted against players of
> similar experience and ability?
You'll never find out unless you try it yourself. Especially with the
GPL crowd, I have found mostly courteous drivers that won't mind a
bump or two if you let them know in chat that you're a newbie and will
do your best to try and stay out of the way.
If you use common sense guidelines (just pretend you're racing on your
local, real-life kart track) I see no reason at all how or why you'd
"spoil everyone else's fun". Just give it a go and you'll be hooked in
no time. (now that is something you'd want to avoid if you value your
social life ;-)
cheers,
uwe
--
mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox)
Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/
Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E)
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > Bruce, I was referring to career modes as referred to by the other > > poster, where you start in a lower series and work your way up. > > A bit like an FPS once you have done it on the hardest level > > do you start it over again? > If you can beat all these games on high difficulty, then you have my > respect (I seriously doubt you have beat GPL, though).I've yet to have this answered by anybody. How can anything be called a sim
if you have to drive it like you are flying a kite or sitting on the front
bumper?
"magnulus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:0%jNc.45200$[email hidden]...
> And Gran Turismo definitely is a simulation in many ways. Sure, thereis
> no damage modelling but it gets many other things right.
>
"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:JMfNc.8873$[email hidden]...
> "David G Fisher" wrote:
> After running the 1965 mod which has revised grip levels I would agree. If
> you get time give it a go, it is a worthy experience and updates what you
> correctly describe as a flaw in the original model.
Tried it last night and I think it feels much better. Going to go online
later and see if I can find a decent race at WG. I'd like to try the '67
cars with the new grip levels though since the cars are faster.
> > I did enjoy myself,
> > but this never ending "Papyrus
> > makes the most ultra-realistic sims" stuff is just nonsense. F1C iseasily
> > a more realistic experience IMO.
>
> It does work extremely well on-line though and probably still gives the
> greatest experience of on-line racing on road courses available even now
> with the 65 mod.
I have a tremendous time racing online with tthe TPTCC cars in RASCAR. Neil
and Ginger are always great competition, and the racing is usually extremely
close. Unfortunately we don't have enough TPTCC road races in RASCAR during
the Cup season. A really close race in F1C though is probably the biggest
thrill online for me though, since it's such a high paced experience, and
there's no room for error at all in the modern F1 cars.
.
> > You can drive GPL like any other sim, and the results will be the same.
> > Bottom line, it's just
> > a game like all the rest. :-)
>
> Troll !!!!
I have to try harder. :-)
--
David G Fisher
"David G Fisher" wrote:
Me too (and many others!). There is a 68 mod in the works for this. The
concern with modding the 67 cars is that it invalidates the records. Doesn't
bother me cos I don't have any! So we have to wait :(
> A really close race in F1C though is probably the biggest
> thrill online for me though, since it's such a high paced experience, and
> there's no room for error at all in the modern F1 cars.
I just can't get into it. Maybe it is because my initial interest was
rallying and I don't have the right driving style. Maybe I just prefer the
feel of Papy sims. Maybe it is because I don't like FF. Perhaps I'll give it
another go...
Cheers
Tony
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > After running the 1965 mod which has revised grip levels I would agree. > > If you get time give it a go, it is a worthy experience and updates > > what you correctly describe as a flaw in the original model. > > Tried it last night and I think it feels much better. Going to go online > later and see if I can find a decent race at WG. I'd like to try the '67 > cars with the new grip levels though since the cars are faster.On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:51:08 GMT, "Tony Rickard"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>The
>concern with modding the 67 cars is that it invalidates the records.
The silly thing is, if they change the drag as well as the tire model,
in theory the laptimes should be higher at almost every track.
Jason Moyer <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
That whole argument(records invalidation) is more than silly.
Quoted text (8 lines)
> On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:51:08 GMT, "Tony Rickard" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >The > >concern with modding the 67 cars is that it invalidates the records. > > The silly thing is, if they change the drag as well as the tire model, > in theory the laptimes should be higher at almost every track.
"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:dJxNc.9466$[email hidden]...
> GPL doesn't have a career mode though.
Even former Papyrus people admit the lack of frills and the high
difficulty contributed to its poor sales. They wanted to put Formula Ford
and F3 training cars in, maybe Sierra rushed out the game.
"Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> FWIW, the speed-sensitive steering settings many driving games have used
> over the years (though never Papy as I recall) have nothing whatsoever todo
> with simulating real world power steering. All they do is reduce your raw
> inputs by some factor as your speed increases, and in fact were originally
> kludges to simulate the lack of inertial effects in the physics modeling.
As I understand it, several power steering systems have a heavy feel at
low speeds, then they lighten up as the car increases in speed. The purpose
is to make it easier to turn at high speeds, making smoother, gradual turns
and movements.
"Speed sensitive steering" in games is an approximation of this effect.
It helps make the amount of wheel lock you need to turn more predictable.
It also acts to damp the forces at high speed. In Papyrus games, at high
speed the forces can become quite aggressive, but if you turn down force
feedback, at low speed they become almost nonexistant.
> Once proper physics models were introduced, it became a redundant feature,
> though obviously one some people still wanted to see. It's basicallybecome
> a help-feature along the lines of ABS or TC. But one would be mistaken to
> call it realistic. Does reality have a slider? ;-)
In real life you can no doubt adjust the power steering on a car for
different speeds or feel (though I'd imagine, most people don't). If you
want more forces and less speed assistance, you can always turn the setting
down. I usually leave it at 50-70 percent. It gives me some feedback about
the forces on the car, but not so much that it becomes difficult to drive.
People can and do race with joysticks, yet this isn't realistic, either.
"Phillip Malphrus, Jr." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> I've yet to have this answered by anybody. How can anything be called asim
> if you have to drive it like you are flying a kite or sitting on the front
> bumper?
>
Well, I suspect for Gran Turismo 3, it was difficult to model every
single cockpit in the cars- maybe it didn't fit with the look they wanted,
after all Polyhpony's previous GT games didn't have cockpits either.
Personally, I would have preffered a generic cockpit. Bumper and hood cam's
don't make or break a game for me, though.
And many racing games on consoles do have cockpit views.
Jason Moyer wrote:
> If you want a game with a career mode, buy a PS2 and play Gran Turismo
> or something. The intended market for a Papyrus sim is the same as
> the intended market for a game like IL-2 or Mig Alley or Flight
> Simulator. People who want a believable experience first and
> foremost, with everything else being a bonus.
Here's a hypothetical question: Would Falcon 3.0/4.0 have been such a
success if it didn't include a dynamic campaign? The dev's could have
said "Here's your simulator, and we're including canned missions. A sim
is a sim; you need no gameplay." (In this analogy: simulator is NASCAR
Racing ****, and canned missions is the championship.)
The reason I bought Falcon 3.0 was due to the physics /and/ campaign,
and I bought Falcon 4.0 over Back to Baghdad because of the dynamic
campaign.
Food for thought? :)
-Will
On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:45:19 -0500, "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> That whole argument(records invalidation) is more than silly.
Being that I cared about GPL rank for all of about 2 months (if you
combine all my 1-2 week sessions of hotlapping) I'd tend to agree.
It's funny that I do thousands of laps a week in n2003 and I don't
think I've ever bothered finishing any of the ranks or keeping my
laptimes up to date.
Jason
"magnulus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:N6ENc.21969$%[email hidden]...
>
> As I understand it, several power steering systems have a heavy feel at
> low speeds, then they lighten up as the car increases in speed. Thepurpose
> is to make it easier to turn at high speeds, making smoother, gradualturns
> and movements.
Nope; in fact, just the opposite - speed sensitive PS systems are mainly a
passenger car item. They increase boost at low speeds, primarily to make
steering effort easier for parking. Racing-type systems that I'm aware of
are linear in boost. The only implementation I can imagine where higher
boost at high speeds might possibly be useful is in F1, where there is
enormous high-speed downforce involved. Nascar does have downforce, but is
not such an extreme situation.
> "Speed sensitive steering" in games is an approximation of this effect.
> It helps make the amount of wheel lock you need to turn more predictable.
> It also acts to damp the forces at high speed. In Papyrus games, at high
> speed the forces can become quite aggressive, but if you turn down force
> feedback, at low speed they become almost nonexistant.
Nope again; I would suggest the increased downforce and inertial effects are
what you're feeling (and attempting to dial out). The same happens in the
ISI F1 sims at high speed if you don't use an aid to minimize it - you can
easily feel the steering load up on long straights in F1C.
> In real life you can no doubt adjust the power steering on a car for
> different speeds or feel (though I'd imagine, most people don't). If you
> want more forces and less speed assistance, you can always turn thesetting
> down. I usually leave it at 50-70 percent. It gives me some feedbackabout
> the forces on the car, but not so much that it becomes difficult to drive.
>
> People can and do race with joysticks, yet this isn't realistic,either.
Your point about joysticks has some relevance here. As I noted before, the
speed-sensitive steering in games/sims doesn't directly affect the forces at
all. What it does at say, 50%, is to simply reduce your steering input
gradually as speed increases so that at top speed it's reduced by 50%. So
20 degrees of lock at your wheel would only be interpreted as a 10 degree
turn at top speed (or whatever speed the game brings in the full effect).
It does make the car feel more settled, for sure and means you don't have to
be as precise in your driving. As I also noted, it's basically a help
function. And it's primarily left in to accommodate users with marginal
controllers (like joysticks, or even cheap wheels with a narrow rotational
range) who might otherwise find the game too difficult to control if they
run enough steering lock to get around hairpins. As far as reality goes, as
of a year or two ago such systems are beginning to make their way into
passenger cars, such as the 7 and 5 series BMW's. But again, it's mainly to
make parking and low-speed maneuvering easier and is phased out at pretty
low speeds. Papy uses exactly such a system with their games, from GPL on;
it boosts the lock at low speeds for use in hairpins and pit stalls. They
only allow you to turn it on or off in a config file, not with a slider in
the game menu.
Whatever settings you like to use is fine of course. They're YOUR games,
after all. But you might try to understand better what the effect actually
is before suggesting that a company is derelict in their adherence to
reality by leaving it out.
Jason Moyer <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Yeah, me too. I'll take an online race instead anyday.
Quoted text (12 lines)
> On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:45:19 -0500, "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > That whole argument(records invalidation) is more than silly. > > Being that I cared about GPL rank for all of about 2 months (if you > combine all my 1-2 week sessions of hotlapping) I'd tend to agree. > > It's funny that I do thousands of laps a week in n2003 and I don't > think I've ever bothered finishing any of the ranks or keeping my > laptimes up to date. > > Jason
"Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> The same happens in the
> ISI F1 sims at high speed if you don't use an aid to minimize it - you can
> easily feel the steering load up on long straights in F1C.
But I don't necessarily want the forces to dominate the wheel to the
point I don't have good smooth control (and FF wheels aren't the most
precise to begin with). That's why the speed sensitive steering is useful.
It's not an aid, it's part of the control config, and it certainly is not a
cheat and won't turn a bad driver into a good one.
It's my understanding that power steering is rarer in F1 cars (I'm not
sure if it will remain legal, I'm not an F1 expert), but all NASCAR racers
in modern times have had them.
My point is simple - if a sim hasn't got the online right then I'd say
the last thing they should be focusing on 'til they get the online right is
AI/Career modes.
As far as GPL's lack of sales, I'd say it's because of the era - most
people think it's about old tubs wobbling around the track. I was highly
uninspired when I first heard about GPL - my reaction was "why not a CHAMP
Car or present F1 sim". That all changed when I saw the cars/tracks in
action though. But for the average goose browsing the shelves at the local
games store, GPL would get very fleeting interest, irrspective of game
modes.
"magnulus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:ADDNc.9072$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (10 lines)
> > "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:dJxNc.9466$[email hidden]... > > GPL doesn't have a career mode though. > > Even former Papyrus people admit the lack of frills and the high > difficulty contributed to its poor sales. They wanted to put Formula Ford > and F3 training cars in, maybe Sierra rushed out the game. > >On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:39:04 -0400, "magnulus"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
> It's my understanding that power steering is rarer in F1 cars (I'm not
>sure if it will remain legal, I'm not an F1 expert), but all NASCAR racers
>in modern times have had them.
Power steering in F1 was first used in the early '90s, since 6-7 years
or so all F1 cars have power steering.
There was a suggestion a couple of years back that it would be banned,
which I think a load of... Hell, even a $12000 shopping trolley has
power steering these days.
However I think if you're american the view may be little skewed when
it comes to power steering... ;) The american cars I've driven had an
insane amount of gain in the servo system that made road feedback
through the wheel non-existant. You know, like you could turn the
wheel with your pinky. Quite different in european cars, IME. I would
think a racecar power steering system would be tunable and have rather
small gain to get some surface feel, but I'm just pulling stuff out my
wazoo really, OTOH.
Magnus Svensson wrote:
That�s true. Power steering is used in F1 for a long time. In this season I
think every car has power steering, but some drivers don�t like it, that�s
why Jacques Villeneuves BAR sometimes had no power steering.
A few years ago the FIA wanted to ban power steering, but I don�t remember
if it became true for one year or so.
However today it�s allowed, but variable power assist or any other computer
controlled steering aids are forbidden.
[...]
Stephan
Quoted text (9 lines)
> On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:39:04 -0400, "magnulus" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > >> It's my understanding that power steering is rarer in F1 cars (I'm >> not sure if it will remain legal, I'm not an F1 expert), but all >> NASCAR racers in modern times have had them. > > Power steering in F1 was first used in the early '90s, since 6-7 years > or so all F1 cars have power steering.The car's yaw damping reduces at higher speeds.
It is possible that a simulated car with steering lags due to the
PC joystick and graphics systems may approach instability
at high speed through this effect, particularly without force
feedback to at least tune the stick force.
Reducing the steering gain at higher speeds helps control this effect.
- Matt
Steve Blankenship wrote:
Quoted text (19 lines)
> "magnulus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> >>> Papy do simulate that - it's called a non FF wheel! >> >>That's not the same. FF doesn't change the fact there is no speed >>sensitive steering, it just takes away the feedback. > > > FWIW, the speed-sensitive steering settings many driving games have used > over the years (though never Papy as I recall) have nothing whatsoever to do > with simulating real world power steering. All they do is reduce your raw > inputs by some factor as your speed increases, and in fact were originally > kludges to simulate the lack of inertial effects in the physics modeling. > Once proper physics models were introduced, it became a redundant feature, > though obviously one some people still wanted to see. It's basically become > a help-feature along the lines of ABS or TC. But one would be mistaken to > call it realistic. Does reality have a slider? ;-) > >
"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> My point is simple - if a sim hasn't got the online right then I'd say
> the last thing they should be focusing on 'til they get the online rightis
Agreed, I didn't buy it until I found this newsgroup full of GPL posts.
Sadly I suck at it but it makes NR2003 seem easier.
Tim
Quoted text (9 lines)
> AI/Career modes. > > As far as GPL's lack of sales, I'd say it's because of the era - most > people think it's about old tubs wobbling around the track. I was highly > uninspired when I first heard about GPL - my reaction was "why not a CHAMP > Car or present F1 sim". That all changed when I saw the cars/tracks in > action though. But for the average goose browsing the shelves at the local > games store, GPL would get very fleeting interest, irrspective of game > modes.>Thanks Larry ;-) I've been part of the "Screamers Racing League" for
>well over five years now, we've been racing GPL since shortly after its
>release. Founded by the great Jeff "Murchman" Murchison and his dad
>nicknamed "senior", we feature remarkably low fluctuation and
>interesting conversations on the mailing list, both on racing and most
>of life's other issues.
No *kidding*...<g>
Eldred
--
http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Screamers League
IICC League
GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80
Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71
Hist. +82.34 MoH:na
N2k3 rank:in progress
Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin
Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro
US East
>Us PC "simmers" could really care less about photorealism and
>useless features like a career mode,
Useless? Some of us simmers *enjoy* a career mode. Problem is, that feature
hasn't been included in very many mainstream sims...
Eldred
--
http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Screamers League
IICC League
GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80
Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71
Hist. +82.34 MoH:na
N2k3 rank:in progress
Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin
Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro
US East
>A really close race in F1C though is probably the biggest
>thrill online for me though, since it's such a high paced experience, and
>there's no room for error at all in the modern F1 cars.
Any tips? As I've said before, I'm sure you and Neil have a great time running
F1C. I wish more could share that experience. It's a cool game, but the
majority of us can't keep up with you two. I usually end up running this one
against the AI - at least I can seel *see* them after the first laps.<g>
Eldred
--
http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Screamers League
IICC League
GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80
Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71
Hist. +82.34 MoH:na
N2k3 rank:in progress
Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin
Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro
US East
Quoted text (13 lines)
> >Jason Moyer <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:51:08 GMT, "Tony Rickard" >> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >The >> >concern with modding the 67 cars is that it invalidates the records. >> >> The silly thing is, if they change the drag as well as the tire model, >> in theory the laptimes should be higher at almost every track. > > That whole argument(records invalidation) is more than silly.On 09 Aug 2004 16:30:37 GMT, EldredP wrote:
Hey! Even I ran close with DGF for a dozen laps or so at Barcelona, so
just about everyone should be able to do it! ;-)
Cheers,
uwe
--
mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox)
Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/
Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E)
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61
Quoted text (8 lines)
>>A really close race in F1C though is probably the biggest >>thrill online for me though, since it's such a high paced experience, and >>there's no room for error at all in the modern F1 cars. > > Any tips? As I've said before, I'm sure you and Neil have a great time running > F1C. I wish more could share that experience. It's a cool game, but the > majority of us can't keep up with you two. I usually end up running this one > against the AI - at least I can seel *see* them after the first laps.<g>On 09 Aug 2004 16:12:34 GMT, EldredP wrote:
Actually, I wonder how many other RAS'ers share the same experience,
i.e. being part of a racing league for a longer period than a single
season. If you'd care to share your experiences, I'd be happy to read
them.
Cheers,
uwe
--
mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox)
Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/
Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E)
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61
Quoted text (8 lines)
>>Thanks Larry ;-) I've been part of the "Screamers Racing League" for >>well over five years now, we've been racing GPL since shortly after its >>release. Founded by the great Jeff "Murchman" Murchison and his dad >>nicknamed "senior", we feature remarkably low fluctuation and >>interesting conversations on the mailing list, both on racing and most >>of life's other issues. > > No *kidding*...<g>Uwe =?iso-8859-15?Q?Sch=FCrkamp?= <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:
TPTCC offline leagues since N2 came out...TPTCC online leagues since
N3 & Nascar HEat. A couple of breaks, missing a winter season here, or a
summer season there, but pretty much just that one league...I have dabbled
in a CART league for F1 mods...but we have been waiting for an update for
over a year now...everytime one is near finished...the author gives up or
gets goofy.
dave henrie
Quoted text (20 lines)
> On 09 Aug 2004 16:12:34 GMT, EldredP wrote: >>>Thanks Larry ;-) I've been part of the "Screamers Racing League" for >>>well over five years now, we've been racing GPL since shortly after its >>>release. Founded by the great Jeff "Murchman" Murchison and his dad >>>nicknamed "senior", we feature remarkably low fluctuation and >>>interesting conversations on the mailing list, both on racing and most >>>of life's other issues. >> >> No *kidding*...<g> > > Actually, I wonder how many other RAS'ers share the same experience, > i.e. being part of a racing league for a longer period than a single > season. If you'd care to share your experiences, I'd be happy to read > them. > > Cheers, > > uwe > >[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:
If you ever read my race reports, you'd know I have been in career mode
all my simming life. As the only Factory sponsored MOPAR driver in any
league for years...it was a lonely time. Fortunately when Nickle & Dimeler
Benz came along, I was able to subcontract out and get work test flying the
Eurofighter. I have had crewmembers mysteriously disappear and Aussie
reporters vanish. The Team Helicopter was a Military refurbished AH 64
Apache...not great for corporate entertaining...but it had it's uses.
My first year in the TPTCC league...I set a record for the least amount
of wheels still on the car at the finish. Team Crew members included such
folks as Shinji MyKarnogo who started out as the left front tire changer
and rose over the years to Crew Chief...Before he too disappeared while
showing a potential sponsor the Team Helicopter at one of the annual
Bullrun 1000 races held in Colorado..
Career mode? Who needs it....:)
dave henrie
Quoted text (7 lines)
>>Us PC "simmers" could really care less about photorealism and >>useless features like a career mode, > > Useless? Some of us simmers *enjoy* a career mode. Problem is, that > feature hasn't been included in very many mainstream sims... > > EldredUwe Sch�rkamp wrote:
>
> Actually, I wonder how many other RAS'ers share the same experience,
> i.e. being part of a racing league for a longer period than a single
> season. If you'd care to share your experiences, I'd be happy to read
> them.
I've been in a few, one for six seasons, but never experienced the "family"
relationship the Screamers have. Much higher rate of turnover and no
"discussions" of political issues.
Don McCorkle
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 06:56:56 -0400, Woodie83 wrote:
> I've been in a few, one for six seasons, but never experienced the "family"
> relationship the Screamers have. Much higher rate of turnover and no
> "discussions" of political issues.
>
Hehe, they tend to add some spice to the mix, don't you agree, Don?
;-)
Cheers,
uwe
--
mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox)
Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/
Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E)
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61
Uwe Sch�rkamp wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 06:56:56 -0400, Woodie83 wrote:
>>"discussions" of political issues.
>>
>
> Hehe, they tend to add some spice to the mix, don't you agree, Don?
Seeing as I start most of them, yes.
Don McCorkle
>
> Career mode? Who needs it....:)
>
Sounds like you're hard on equipment(and crew members)<g>
Well, I guess I'm one of the few here who would still enjoy a career mode in
racing games. But remember, we're a small subset of people who play the games
in the first place. I'd guess that the vast majority never even ventures
online. So, they would tend to want more stand-alone features like a career
mode...
Eldred
--
http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Screamers League
IICC League
GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80
Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71
Hist. +82.34 MoH:na
N2k3 rank:in progress
Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin
Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro
US East
>Actually, I wonder how many other RAS'ers share the same experience,
>i.e. being part of a racing league for a longer period than a single
>season. If you'd care to share your experiences, I'd be happy to read
>them.
>
Offline ICR league run by Dave Kadlcak - Pro95, Pro96
GPL Cooper league also run by DK - two seasons, I think
That league turned into COBRHA(COoper, BRm, HondA) and ran for a few seasons
until Dave got married...<g>
Screamers GPL league - started as a server provider, got an invite into the
league, ran for 3 or 4 seasons until I went back to school. Was never able to
score a win like I did in my other leagues... :-(
IICC GPL - I've run with them for maybe 3 seasons, and the start of a TPTCC
season.
Masters of GPL - again started as a serverdude, and got an invite from a team
owner.
RASCAR - not sure if that counts as a 'league' in this discussion...
I've been in other groups/clubs, but none that I can recall stretching over
seasons
Eldred
--
http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Screamers League
IICC League
GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80
Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71
Hist. +82.34 MoH:na
N2k3 rank:in progress
Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin
Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro
US East
>> Hehe, they tend to add some spice to the mix, don't you agree, Don?
>
>
>Seeing as I start most of them, yes.
No comment.<g>
Eldred
--
http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Screamers League
IICC League
GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80
Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71
Hist. +82.34 MoH:na
N2k3 rank:in progress
Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin
Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro
US East
