Rendition Chip

Could someone please tell my what a rendition chip is and when it will become available? Thanks

> Could someone please tell my what a rendition chip is and when it will > become available? > Thanks The rendition chip is a 3d accelerator chip made by Rendition. The chip is being featured on Creative Lab's new 3d Blaster PCI. It'll be out on Oct. 4.

The Rendition chip is a 2D/3D graphics accelerator chip. Currently, Sierra and Intergraph are planning on releasing graphic cards based on this chip... soon. October 1st is the ship date for the Intergaph card to the distributor; it's called the Reactor. Check out their Web page at http://www.intergraph.com/ics/reactor. Brien

Will programs such as Indy Car and Nascar automatically be configured for this card (Rendition Chip) or will we need a new program? How about Grand Prix? Thanks for any info. says...

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>The Rendition chip is a 2D/3D graphics accelerator chip. Currently, Sierra >and >Intergraph are planning on releasing graphic cards based on this chip... >soon. >October 1st is the ship date for the Intergaph card to the distributor; >it's called >the Reactor. Check out their Web page at >http://www.intergraph.com/ics/reactor. >Brien >> Could someone please tell my what a rendition chip is and when it will >> become available? >> Thanks

Games will either have to specifically be written for the Verite chip or utilize Win95's Direct3D. 3D cards will do nothing for regular old DOS games, although the Verite cards are quite fast at DOS VESA 2.0 SVGA resolutions (a little faster than the Millennium I've heard). There will be a hardware accelerated version of IndycarII shipping with both Sierra's and Intergraph's boards, and NascarII will be written for these cards as well. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

:Games will either have to specifically be written for the Verite chip or :utilize Win95's Direct3D. 3D cards will do nothing for regular old DOS :games, although the Verite cards are quite fast at DOS VESA 2.0 SVGA :resolutions (a little faster than the Millennium I've heard). There will :be a hardware accelerated version of IndycarII shipping with both Sierra's :and Intergraph's boards, and NascarII will be written for these cards as :well. : Bah Humbug..Verite ; ( VOODOO ; ) I wish.. I wish.. I wish.. Damn, I wonder how would N2 and ICR2 (revised) do with the VOODOO?? Even though it wasn't optimized for it..Hmm.. take care Julian Data #0004 Director of Information Technology, Consultant, "Ace" Test Driver Offical Channel Operator (#ivgacsnc, on undernet) International Video Gamers Assoiciation, Inc. (IVGA) 14100 Walsingham Avenue Suite 36 Largo, FL 34644 Voice: (813) 596-6661

The Voodoo will do nothing for them I would expect. The games have been written specifically for the features of the Verite chip, and thus would not even recognize the Voodoo. If however there was a Direct3D version of either, then the Voodoo could be utilized. It makes economic sense for Papyrus/Sierra to support Rendition. With a lower price than the Voodoo, on board 2D acceleration, and the fact that Sierra is producing their own board, the Voodoo never had a chance of being used. It is by far the superior board, but until Direct3D is in more widespread use we will not see as much use of it other than native Voodoo ports. There should be quite a few released, as the Voodoo looks to be second only to the Verite in Developer support. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

>The Voodoo will do nothing for them I would expect. The games have been >written specifically for the features of the Verite chip, and thus would >not even recognize the Voodoo. If however there was a Direct3D version of >either, then the Voodoo could be utilized. It makes economic sense for >Papyrus/Sierra to support Rendition. With a lower price than the Voodoo, >on board 2D acceleration, and the fact that Sierra is producing their own >board, the Voodoo never had a chance of being used. It is by far the >superior board, but until Direct3D is in more widespread use we will not >see as much use of it other than native Voodoo ports. There should be >quite a few released, as the Voodoo looks to be second only to the Verite >in Developer support. REPLY: It would make most sense if they just made a D3D version so all the acellerators will work. Papyrus will make it becuase they want to be the leaders and not the followers. Whiplash and Burning Road for the Vodoo will make Papy reconsider since both have better GFX and frame rates than N2 verite and should be available today. Any company putting their eggs into 1 3D market especially one that's not "State of the Art", IMO is making a mistake. But will be corrected once they understand the mistake they've made. You'll see. Q.B.M.

True, but the fact is just because something is "state of the art" doesn't automatically make it the industry leader. We got stuck with the crappy Creative Labs standard for soundcards. Also remember that VHS beat out Beta, despite the fact that Beta is a better format. I shouldn't even bring up the fact that OS/2 Warp is a superior operating system than Win95. The best system or hardware doesn't always catch on, and its the consumer who ultimately loses out as manufacturers and developers make their economic decisions. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

> True, but the fact is just because something is "state of the art" doesn't > automatically make it the industry leader. We got stuck with the crappy > Creative Labs standard for soundcards. Also remember that VHS beat out > Beta, despite the fact that Beta is a better format. I shouldn't even > bring up the fact that OS/2 Warp is a superior operating system than Win95. You fail to recognize the size of your ego. Don't assume that it is your opinion that rules by default. How is your point-of-view so objectively correct so as to blurt it out as factual statements. Are you God and we just don't know it? Have you spent millions to test these products to make such a comparison? Or, have you just believed the same bullshit you are attempting to feed us, as conveyed by others? How dare you insult our intelligence as being inferior to yours! In my opinion, your attempt to lead, patrol, and otherwise dictate this forum is overshadowed by the symptoms attributed to the lack of self esteem.

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> The best system or hardware doesn't always catch on, and its the consumer > who ultimately loses out as manufacturers and developers make their > economic decisions. > -- > Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences > Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

I have never claimed my opinion as fact. What I have done is to try and convey information in an unbiased as possible manner to members of this newsgroup. I have done extensive research into the 3D Accelerator market, have you? Whenever possible, I refer people to the companies web sites so they can get information directly from the source, or to an alternate newsgroup where they can get first-hand reviews of the products in question. I would never be so arrogant as to assume I could do otherwise. The examples I gave in that post were not my opinion, but the general consensus. The VHS/Beta is probably the most famous marketing decision that passed up a superior technology. Ask anyone who uses video on a regular basis which is better. Why do you think most news cameras and other broadcast equipment are Betamax? Also, few will argue that Win95's multitasking is on par with OS2/Warp's. I own and use Win95 because of it's marketshare however. I have no desire to force my opinions on anyone. If however I can stop someone from wasting their money on an inferior product, I will. Consider someone asking about purchasing on of ATI's RAGE 3D cards unaware that ATI has scrapped the card in favor of the RAGEII. If I inform them of this they will most likely reconsider the purchase of the dying card. What is your problem with this? -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

> The examples I gave in that post were not my opinion, but the general > consensus. The VHS/Beta is probably the most famous marketing decision > that passed up a superior technology. Ask anyone who uses video on a > regular basis which is better. Why do you think most news cameras and > other broadcast equipment are Betamax? Eric, I have no problem with your research or knowledge of 3D accelerator cards and I don't send this to insult you in any way. However, you are wrong about Betamax being used by broadcasters. What most of us use is called Betacam SP. It has nothing in common with betamax except the outer cassette shell of the small (20 min) tape and the fact that it is made by Sony. A larger tape that goes in the same Betacam SP machines does a maximum of 90 min. Betacam's success is due to superior business strategy by Sony, not necessarily superior technology. Betamax, on the other hand, failed simply because Sony did not respond to VHSs ability to record in 4 and 6 hour modes in a timely manner. Matt Howell - Production WTVD - ABC, Inc. a wholly owned subsidiary of The Walt Disney Company The opinions, observations, statements above are my own and in no way reflect the positions or opinions of WTVD, ABC Inc., or the Walt Disney Company

Of course you're right. I really shouldn't post messages like that late at night off the top of my head. Thanks for the correction. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

>The examples I gave in that post were not my opinion, but the general >consensus. The VHS/Beta is probably the most famous marketing decision >that passed up a superior technology. REPLY: There is one point that you forget in this argument and is the MAIN reason why VHS and another important one. 1. Recording time was the big deal at the time. This is why VHS won. 2. There was more saturation of VHS on the market. Beta had slightly better picture quality, slightly. To a afficinado that's important to Aunt Bess and Uncle Bob, they could careless. They wanted to record everything, later found out they couldn't operate the time record option, doooh!. :) This argument is an ole bad argument, to many people forget the real reasons, don't forget!! REPLY: Sorta the same type of argument. OS/2 does have a better multitasking mechanism. BUT Aunt Bess doesn't make the whole OS choice on multitasking. What's more important to her is the abundance of native apps that run on her system. Win '95 multitasks good enough for most, IMO would be a safe statement. Heck your reply states the obvious as well. REPLY: Yeah but we weren't talking about an inferior product now were we? Just a better more expensive product. Hey if you can afford to blow $200 on games something tells me you can afford to blow $300 for better gamming. Q.B.M.

>True, but the fact is just because something is "state of the art" doesn't >automatically make it the industry leader. We got stuck with the crappy >Creative Labs standard for soundcards. REPLY: I already got ya on the othe stuff.... So to make it comlete. :) To a gamer the EYES are the most imprtant thing. Gameplay as well. A Better GFX's board helps both. Better visuals and smoother gameplay, who could argue? Many people are satisfied with a cheap stereo system so the "not state of the art" soundboard" catching on didn't surprise me. In fact at the time it wasn't all bad to have a standard since nobody came up to bat to have some type of universal device to support the soundcard industry. That's why D3D is a imortant part now, to make sure 3D keeps advancing as fast as possible and with D3D this whole argument/debate doesn't even happen since Nascar 2 would be for all 3d boards. So lets all hope for D3D to work well. But the Vodoo "State of the art" if very noticeable to even 5 year olds. It's there and that's that. Now you could kid yourself, but that's not living up to your end of the bargain and calling things the way they are. I feel the visual impact of the Vodoo would sway anybody whose considering the 3D jump into it's corner as of now. There are a few small exceptions all grant you. Q.B.M.

I know the reasons why Beta didn't become the standard. The fact still remains it was the superior format, however small the advantage was. That's all my argument was: the fact that the sometimes an inferior product can become the industry standard. The reasons for this decision really don't matter. Not only does OS/2 Warp Multitask better than Win95 it is also a true 32-bit operating system. Again, it was not chosen as the OS of the masses for other reasons despite it being the superior OS. Like I said, and you pointed out, I use Win95 because you almost have to. me of attempting "to lead, patrol, and otherwise dictate this forum". I have never said the Voodoo was an inferior card. No one will debate the fact that it is quite superior. My only problem with it is its potential marketshare. I have the same concerns with it as did John Carmack of iD. They did their Rendition port of Quake for economic reasons only, and admitted a Voodoo version would have been better. Still, I have said for months now that I wanted a Voodoo and I have not changed my mind. I was tempted to replace my Mach64 with a Rendition card just to play Nascar2 on, but after seeing reports of it's Windows performance I'm a little hesitant. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

What have you gotten me on. Every example I gave you openly admitted that the superior product (Beta, OS/2, and now any card other than a Sound Blaster) lost out to an inferior product or format. The reasons why did not concern me, just the fact that it happens. I'm not trying to argue with you. I totally agree the Voodoo is the best card out there. I have been planning to buy one for months now. Yes, but the problem is that the card that won out was a poorly made noisy card. I'm not talking 'state of the art' here, but just plain old sound quality. The Sound Blaster pales in comparison to other cards out there. In this case the standard made life much easier for the game playing consumer, but it cost them quality sound. Exactly. With the advent of Direct3D we no longer have to worry about which card will supported by what developers. I don't understand why Papyrus is not making Nascar2 a Win95 Direct3D game to save us from all of this. That way owners of any 3D card (that had Direct3D drivers of course) could take advantage of some of the 3D acceleration features. Again I'm not disagreeing with you about the Voodoo, I plan on getting one myself. The original argument was about why Papyrus choose to support the Rendition card. With its lower price coupled with the fact that Sierra is producing its own card, it really was a no-brainer. Papyrus knows the Voodoo is a better card (everyone does) but they made an economic decision to support Rendition just like John Carmack of iD.

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>> True, but the fact is just because something is "state of the art" doesn't >> automatically make it the industry leader. We got stuck with the crappy >> Creative Labs standard for soundcards. Also remember that VHS beat out >> Beta, despite the fact that Beta is a better format. I shouldn't even >> bring up the fact that OS/2 Warp is a superior operating system than Win95. >You fail to recognize the size of your ego. Don't assume that it is >your opinion that rules by default. How is your point-of-view so >objectively correct so as to blurt it out as factual statements. Are >you God and we just don't know it? Have you spent millions to test >these products to make such a comparison? Or, have you just believed the >same bullshit you are attempting to feed us, as conveyed by others? How >dare you insult our intelligence as being inferior to yours! In my >opinion, your attempt to lead, patrol, and otherwise dictate this forum >is overshadowed by the symptoms attributed to the lack of self esteem.

How about we knock off the personal attacks? Eric makes an excellent point - that superior standards don't always win out in the marketplace. You may not agree with the examples he chose, but that doesn't make his point any less valid. However, you undermine your own case by the same failing for which you fault him - namely that you haven't supplied any objective facts to refute his statements. I don't want to single you out. It just seems to me that lately r.a.s. has become more of an arena for sniping, personal attacks and adolescents trolling for trouble than a place for intelligent discussion of the subject matter at hand. There will always be the rogue element bent on destruction, but certainly the rest of us can observe certain rules of etiquette and try to maintain a civil tone. I'm likely to get flamed for this, but I truly believe you can make your point without resorting to insults. And now, back to your regularly scheduled programming... Dave (davids) Sparks Late Night League http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

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>>True, but the fact is just because something is "state of the art" doesn't >>automatically make it the industry leader. We got stuck with the crappy >>Creative Labs standard for soundcards. >REPLY: >I already got ya on the othe stuff.... >So to make it comlete. :) >To a gamer the EYES are the most imprtant thing. Gameplay as well. A >Better GFX's board helps both. Better visuals and smoother gameplay, >who could argue? >Many people are satisfied with a cheap stereo system so the "not state >of the art" soundboard" catching on didn't surprise me. In fact at the >time it wasn't all bad to have a standard since nobody came up to bat >to have some type of universal device to support the soundcard >industry. That's why D3D is a imortant part now, to make sure 3D keeps >advancing as fast as possible and with D3D this whole argument/debate >doesn't even happen since Nascar 2 would be for all 3d boards. So lets >all hope for D3D to work well. >But the Vodoo "State of the art" if very noticeable to even 5 year >olds. It's there and that's that. Now you could kid yourself, but >that's not living up to your end of the bargain and calling things the >way they are. I feel the visual impact of the Vodoo would sway anybody >whose considering the 3D jump into it's corner as of now. There are a >few small exceptions all grant you. >Q.B.M.

Sorry, your argument falls flat if you examine current market conditions. Take a look at the VGA market today - most computers still ship with a 1MB SVGA board equipped with an 8-bit DAC. There are plenty of good qualify boards with high resolution 24-bit color, but most computers have inexpensive SVGA chips in them. Yes, the same people who are buying P5-166's and 4MB high performance video cards will probably buy the best the 3D market has to offer. But the fact of the matter is, once 3D acceleration takes off, the majority of boards shipped will be under $200. That is the economics of the mass market. And until Microsoft can provide a solution to the real-time issues plaguing simulations running under Win'95, DOS-based games will continue to be the exception instead of the rule. Dave (davids) Sparks Late Night League http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

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> >> True, but the fact is just because something is "state of the art" doesn't > >> automatically make it the industry leader. We got stuck with the crappy > >> Creative Labs standard for soundcards. Also remember that VHS beat out > >> Beta, despite the fact that Beta is a better format. I shouldn't even > >> bring up the fact that OS/2 Warp is a superior operating system than Win95. > >You fail to recognize the size of your ego. Don't assume that it is > >your opinion that rules by default. How is your point-of-view so > >objectively correct so as to blurt it out as factual statements. Are > >you God and we just don't know it? Have you spent millions to test > >these products to make such a comparison? Or, have you just believed the > >same bullshit you are attempting to feed us, as conveyed by others? How > >dare you insult our intelligence as being inferior to yours! In my > >opinion, your attempt to lead, patrol, and otherwise dictate this forum > >is overshadowed by the symptoms attributed to the lack of self esteem. > How about we knock off the personal attacks? Eric makes an excellent point > - that superior standards don't always win out in the marketplace. You may > not agree with the examples he chose, but that doesn't make his point any > less valid. However, you undermine your own case by the same failing for > which you fault him - namely that you haven't supplied any objective facts > to refute his statements. > I don't want to single you out. It just seems to me that lately r.a.s. has > become more of an arena for sniping, personal attacks and adolescents > trolling for trouble than a place for intelligent discussion of the subject > matter at hand. There will always be the rogue element bent on destruction, > but certainly the rest of us can observe certain rules of etiquette and try > to maintain a civil tone. > I'm likely to get flamed for this, but I truly believe you can make your > point without resorting to insults. > And now, back to your regularly scheduled programming... > Dave (davids) Sparks > Late Night League > http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

That's right, cut the flaming crap, this is not what we log on for. Who cares if Eric believes that os2 is better . I don't but I will respect his opinion and certainly won't waste time flaming him. By the way I just installed a new Dynamite 128/video ( and removed a Diamond 3200, it's for sale ). Does anybody know if you can put a 3D card alongside the Dynamite ? Thanks Guy Brosseau

On the Vodoo... REPLY: Rumor has it id wanted $1,000,000 for the Quake packin version for the Vodoo. Orchid tried to fanagle the deal but ultimately balked at it. In my opion it's a good move for Orchid because Vodoo will have Quake for free. I'm really dissapointed with id or any software companies that are giving these manuf. troubles like this. They get a one time sell and they are giving those programmers what they wanted, thanks should be in hand to them by the software companies. People have seen the Vodoo version though not 100% complete. Yes it was faster and more detailed yet. It's out there, if it is realized as the D3D Win '95 version then so be it. On Nascar 2, I was hoping for a Vodoo version. I'm going to wait on the Verite for a while, I still feel were going to see a Vodoo Nascar 2 version. In fact every game I feel being designed for the Verite will soon afterwards (2 months) have a vodoo version. That's my feeling on the matter. With that feeling that's why I'm holding off on the Verite. Another smaller point on the verite is that CL has already made plans for 2 more different chip boards other than the Verite, Laguna and Permedia. So in the last year CL will be using 4 different 3d chips already. To me that states their not really satisfied with the verite, so why should we. Orchid is the company that's going to get the biggest bang here, they have "the" chip, their smaller and they're the only one atm. What's their stock at right now? Q.B.M.

QAZ: ERIC: REPLY: Well Eric your making this a strange debate then. I'm buying two, your buying one, lots of people are buying them but then you don't think it will have enough market share. In your writings you state your getting the vodoo and holding off on the verite. So why do you think the other people will do the opposite? Your buying one because you fell you'll see the difference. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to know what you like. When people see the vodoo they'll like it. QAZ: ERIC: REPLY: Some people like the sound of albums better than Cd's. Hearing is a different bird than video, nowhere near as black and white. "Seeing is believing", you can't see sound. Point is it's easier to get a sound standard because of it's idiosynchrencies (sp?) that many people don't care about. REPLY: Common ground is being reached here. Yes Papy we want a D3D version only!! REPLY: Sierra-Papy, Papy-Sierra. Whatever Sierra then should stay out of producing boards. If the get to hell bent their ultimatley gonna hurt themselves with this. Is Sirra actually producing the card or are they just buying a finished board and bundling it? Very different. Q.B.M.

>Sorry, your argument falls flat if you examine current market conditions. >Take a look at the VGA market today - most computers still ship with a 1MB >SVGA board equipped with an 8-bit DAC. There are plenty of good qualify >boards with high resolution 24-bit color, but most computers have >inexpensive SVGA chips in them. REPLY: Yeah but I'm not talking SVGA. IMO it's hard to tell a decent cheap SVGA board to a expensive SVGA. So when consumers see this the obviously will save the cash. But what I'm talking here is you have a major visual difference at hand. Now what do you do, I feel the public will spend the extra dollar for a definte better qality product if it's in the same pricing structure which they are. Were not talking $500 to $2000. SPARKS: REPLY: Last statement I believe you worded it backwards for your point. Hey the Vodoo board is gonna drop as well and don't be surprised the Diamond Monster 3D is $200. So what does that do to everybodys predictions? Soon enough the price difference between vodoo and verite will be near nil., does the Verite still outsell the Vodoo at that point IYO? The Vodoo doesn't have to be sold at $300, it's where they feel for the kickoff is a good price, they feel they are delivering the goods with this board. Again if you or whoever is right about verite selling more, than Orchid will drop the price, they have that ability. Q.B.M.

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> Now on to your question. If you want to add a 3D card onto your Dynamite, > the only real choice would be one of the Voodoo based cards. There are > two, the Orchid Righteous3D and the Diamond Monster3D. The Diamond is > marketed for OEM use, and I'm not even sure if it is available as > stand-alone purchase. The Orchid card is slightly faster anyway, and comes > with a nicer set of utilities. It is priced at under $300 for a 4 meg > board, and started shipping this afternoon (should be in retail stores > around the 9th). It has a pass through input for your current card's video > output (your monitor plugs into it). Video degradation is said to be > minimal if not non-existent. As far as I know there is no other 3D only > card on sale at the present time.

Let me get this straight. If I bought a Rendition card now to play N2, ICR2 and other Rendition Ready games, and then bought a Voodoo based add-on, I would have the best of both worlds, right? -- Henrikki (Hena) Hakkanen Tel. +358-(9)0-345 5538 ------- The best way to accelerate a Mac is 9.81 m/s2 -------- -------------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are mine and does not necessarily reflect those of my employer!

Yes. You would get support for all of the future native Rendition Ports (ICR2, Nascar2, Quake, etc.) as well as the Voodoo ports (EF2000, Falcon 4.0, Descent2, etc.) plus a decently fast 2D card in the Rendition. Direct3D will recognize the Voodoo as the primary 3D card, and use it for all 3D graphics in Win95. You would indeed get the best of both worlds, but it will set you back almost $500 US. This was the plan I was going to take, but I think perhaps I'll just going to get the Voodoo. The only reason I really wanted a Rendition card was for the Quake port (and Nascar2 I guess), and now it's been announced that the Voodoo will be the reference platform for the Direct3D Win95 version. Not quite a native port, but it will do for me. With questionable 2D Windows performance, I would like to see one in action before I make my final decision. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ article

market share. In your take a brain surgeon to People also like fast computers, yet not everyone chooses to buy a P200. They will always be some middle ground between the performance one wants and the price they are willing to pay for it. I think you are giving the public at large too much credit. Without access to these newsgroups (hardware.video specifically) or reviews of the board, they will go by pictures on the box and price. From a still shot, I don't think there is enough difference that someone who is not that informed will notice. Also, a lot of people still have slow 2D cards and are looking to upgrade them as well. If the Voodoo is purchased that's about $400-$500 depending on the 2D card purchased along with it. For the Rendition you're looking at under $200 for an all around graphics solution. It is being built for Sierra by the Japanese manufacturer Canopus, but that really doesn't change things. Sierra still has a vested interest in success of the Rendition based boards. "We're not trying to get into the hardware business," says Sierra product manager Scott Fasser, "we're trying to establish a standard. There is no comparison between games written to Direct3D and games tuned to a specific chip, such as the Vrit." It's no surprise he says this, seeing how Microsoft itself pulled the unimpressive Rendition cards out of its Direct3D display machines at E3 in favor of Voodoo cards. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

>Let me get this straight. If I bought a Rendition card now to play N2, >ICR2 >and other Rendition Ready games, and then bought a Voodoo based add-on, >I would have the best of both worlds, right? REPLY: Correct. I'm possibly looking at that scenario myself. But if we had D3D versions only the Vodoo would be necessary. Q.B.M.

> How about we knock off the personal attacks? Eric makes an excellent point > - that superior standards don't always win out in the marketplace. I agree also and was not argueing this. You may David, I only fault him for speaking as a matter of fact concerning which is the better OS. Your question is false because I don't need any objective facts to demonstrate how there are different strokes for different folks. The thing that makes a good OS will vary from individual to individual. Remember, Eric stated which was the better OS as a fact not opinion. Opinions are fine, because I don't have to agree with them. A belief represented as a fact is where I get unglued. It was taken personally and I can't help but speak up (in this free country of our). ok, I validate your feeings on this matter overall. It is just hard to sit here and not reply to some of these posts which attempt to shove a muffin down my throat.

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>Yeah but I'm not talking SVGA. IMO it's hard to tell a decent cheap >SVGA board to a expensive SVGA. So when consumers see this the >obviously will save the cash. But what I'm talking here is you have a >major visual difference at hand. Now what do you do, I feel the public >will spend the extra dollar for a definte better qality product if it's >in the same pricing structure which they are. Were not talking $500 to >$2000.

At the risk of sounding like a know-it-all, I've been involved in the sound board business since before there _was_ a sound board business. The early market was defined by who could get software support. Creative pulled off a coup by giving out hundreds of boards to developers at the first MPC developers meeting. This is the stage at which 3D video is at now. The next phase of the market is defined by who can provide the best software bundles. The final stage, when the ultimate winners are decided, is defined by who can get the most design wins with the Big 10 computer manufacturers. The public might spend the extra dollar, but the public doesn't make the decisions in the final stage, it's the computer manufacturers like Dell, Gateway, Packard Bell, etc. And believe me, if the Voodoo solutions costs one penny more than Verite, it will probably lose, assuming that either of them survive to that point. Oops. That's what I get for not proof-reading. I still predict the winner will be the one who sells the most chips. <g> Dave (davids) Sparks Late Night League http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

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> >Let me get this straight. If I bought a Rendition card now to play N2, > >ICR2 > >and other Rendition Ready games, and then bought a Voodoo based > add-on, > >I would have the best of both worlds, right? > REPLY: > Correct. I'm possibly looking at that scenario myself. But if we had > D3D versions only the Vodoo would be necessary. > Q.B.M.

Hello. Is indycar2 made for the verite now, or will it be ported in the future ? I bought ICR2 about a month ago, and I can't find anything in the manual about the verite. So if I get a verite based board ( who makes them ? ) will it do anything with the ICR2 I have now ? As to adding a Voodoo in the future, how will the software figure out which 3D board it sould kick in. I mean the verite would activate it's 3D functions and pass that signal to the Voodoo. the Voodoo, already activated, would then..... This is getting very complicated It was a lot simpler when I played Moon Patrol on my old XT.

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>>Let me get this straight. If I bought a Rendition card now to play N2, >>ICR2 >>and other Rendition Ready games, and then bought a Voodoo based >add-on, >>I would have the best of both worlds, right? >REPLY: >Correct. I'm possibly looking at that scenario myself. But if we had >D3D versions only the Vodoo would be necessary. >Q.B.M.

Have you tried the Win'95 version of Indycar 2? The control lag is terrible. I won't be using any Win'95 simulators until MS has done something about it. And I was one of the people advocating for Win'95 a year ago... Dave (davids) Sparks Late Night League http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

I haven't played it, but it sounds like it could be a problem with IndyCar not necessarily a shortcoming of Win95. I've played plenty of Win95 games and none show such lag as was described in this newsgroup, albeit none were true driving simulations like IndyCar. I just got NHL97 (a great game BTW) and the Win95 version runs very smoothly with no hitches whatsoever and precision control. I also never noticed it with the demo of Monster Truck Madness, but I never really played it too extensively. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

Just a thought here, have you tried playing it with the newly released DirectX 3.0? -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

[snip] : This was the plan I was going to take, but I think perhaps I'll just going : to get the Voodoo. The only reason I really wanted a Rendition card was : for the Quake port (and Nascar2 I guess), and now it's been announced that : the Voodoo will be the reference platform for the Direct3D Win95 version. : Not quite a native port, but it will do for me. With questionable 2D : Windows performance, I would like to see one in action before I make my : final decision. : Having seen the Win95 version of ICRII, I am not impressed yet with Win95 as a sim platform. The Voodoo will really have to live up to its name and create some mighty magic before I am willing to suffer Win95 for the smoothness a racing or dogfighting sim requires. This means for "real" performance we may still have to rely on the game being coded for a specific chip. This I believe is the reasoning behind Sierra's plunge into the hardware biz. Actually it's a re-plunge. They did the same thing because they felt the Ad-Lib was the way to go for a soundcard standard. However, Sierra wasn't able to make that one fly. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> Just a thought here, have you tried playing it with the newly released > DirectX 3.0? Any idea if they're downloadable somewhere? I searched MS's web site to no avail ... -- Henrikki (Hena) Hakkanen Tel. +358-(9)0-345 5538 ------- The best way to accelerate a Mac is 9.81 m/s2 -------- -------------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are mine and does not necessarily reflect those of my employer!

REPLY: No, is it actually a win '95 version? But I have played many games through '95 and really I haven't experienced any viable dropoff in performance. EX's Include: (all networked as well) Shatterred Steel Warcraft 2 Duke Quake Links LS Like I said I haven't player IC2, but if one or a couple games don't run quite right through '95 maybe it's the games fault. I also would like to add that maybe your win '95 config isn't setup properly. I've found many people hack on '95 then find out they have their setup all messed up. Q.B.M.

REPLY: Lets say you have a Verite and a Vodoo. For anything that is directly written for one or the other it will automatically use that vidoe board. If you have a D3D program which is a universal 3d app. then it will use the board you have setup in Win '95 as the primary D3D board. If you have both cars you should have the Vodoo setup for the primary D3D boards since it's performance will be the best. Q.B.M.

REPLY: I'm sure you would be floored by a D3D IR2 version for the vodoo once one is created. IR2 is supposed to be on the vertie first. There are no public announcements of a D3D version yet by I'm guessing there will be one soon. But got to rec.video tommarow and read up on all the reviews of the vodoo while running under windows. Assumming you don't have any vandetas against '95 I think you should reconsider your stance and possibly seek assitance on your setup as to why your performace is suffering. Q.B.M.

Yes they are, sort of. You can get the entire DirectX 3 Redist Directory (the redist directory is all the files included with DirectX applications to install DirectX). It is about 6megs (The DirectX 2.0 install was only 2megs, so I'm not sure what extraneous stuff comes in this zipfile). After you unzip it, just go into the DirectX directory and run the dxsetup.exe. It will give to an option to reinstall DirectX which will overwrite your system with the updated 3.0 drivers. You can get it from: http://www.microsoft.com/gamesdev/gsdk/directx.zip -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

I think he winding you up mate, DirectX 2 has only just come out. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Park Group, Southend, Essex. UK -----------------------------------------------------------------

DirectX 3.0 has indeed been completed, and already some games are shipping with it (I know Monday Night Football comes with it). The SDK is not yet available for download, but like I said, the Redist directory that contains the install program and drivers is on Microsoft's Game Developer's Page. Quoting from Online *** Review on Sept 26th: "Microsoft has finally completed its next major phase in its DirectX technology, namely DirectX 3.0. DirectX 3.0 includes some improvements, and some new technology as well. DirectDraw and Direct3D appear to have been further optimized, including support for Intel's MMX technology. The major improvements in DirectX 3, though, lie mainly in the new addition of DirectSound3D (which allows easy manipulation of sound in 3D games), improved hardware support in DirectInput including support for upcoming Universal Serial Bus devices, and major improvements of DirectPlay. In fact, the improvements to DirectPlay may be the most significant to developers since they add the ability to easily construct "lobbies" where gamers can meet, form teams and then enter net-play. They also further improve on the protocol independence in DirectPlay, so connecting over various protocols to Internet based servers should be even easier. Last but not least, the DirectX 3.0 release should include the awaited Direct3D patch for Windows NT 4.0." -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

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>Just a thought here, have you tried playing it with the newly released >DirectX 3.0? >-- >Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences >Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ >> Have you tried the Win'95 version of Indycar 2? The control lag is >> terrible. I won't be using any Win'95 simulators until MS has done >> something about it. And I was one of the people advocating for Win'95 a >> year ago...

I just got the final release today. I suppose I should install it and give it a try. Dave (davids) Sparks Late Night League http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

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>>Have you tried the Win'95 version of Indycar 2? The control lag is >>terrible. I won't be using any Win'95 simulators until MS has done >>something about it. And I was one of the people advocating for Win'95 >a >>year ago... >REPLY: >No, is it actually a win '95 version? But I have played many games >through '95 and really I haven't experienced any viable dropoff in >performance. >EX's Include: (all networked as well) >Shatterred Steel >Warcraft 2 >Duke >Quake >Links LS >Like I said I haven't player IC2, but if one or a couple games don't >run quite right through '95 maybe it's the games fault. I also would >like to add that maybe your win '95 config isn't setup properly. I've >found many people hack on '95 then find out they have their setup all >messed up. >Q.B.M.

No, this isn't playing *through* Win'95, it's an actual Win'95 application. I'd like to hear from anybody who is satisifed with the performance of the Win'95 version of ICR2. Dave (davids) Sparks Late Night League http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

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>> >Let me get this straight. If I bought a Rendition card now to play N2, >> >ICR2 >> >and other Rendition Ready games, and then bought a Voodoo based >> add-on, >> >I would have the best of both worlds, right? >> REPLY: >> Correct. I'm possibly looking at that scenario myself. But if we had >> D3D versions only the Vodoo would be necessary. >> Q.B.M. >Hello. Is indycar2 made for the verite now, or will it be ported in the >future ? >I bought ICR2 about a month ago, and I can't find anything in the manual >about the verite. So if I get a verite based board ( who makes them ? ) >will it do anything with the ICR2 I have now ? >As to adding a Voodoo in the future, how will the software figure out >which 3D board it sould kick in. I mean the verite would activate it's >3D functions and pass that signal to the Voodoo. the Voodoo, already >activated, would then..... >This is getting very complicated >It was a lot simpler when I played Moon Patrol on my old XT.

Papyrus has announced that both Indycar 2 and NASCAR 2 will support the Verite' boards. A special version of Indycar 2 with Verite' support will be bundled with both the Intergraph and Sierra-Online Verite' boards. NASCAR 2 will support Verite' out of the box. Dave (davids) Sparks Late Night League http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

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>[snip] >: This was the plan I was going to take, but I think perhaps I'll just >going >: to get the Voodoo. The only reason I really wanted a Rendition card was >: for the Quake port (and Nascar2 I guess), and now it's been announced >that >: the Voodoo will be the reference platform for the Direct3D Win95 version. >: Not quite a native port, but it will do for me. With questionable 2D >: Windows performance, I would like to see one in action before I make my >: final decision. >: >Having seen the Win95 version of ICRII, I am not impressed yet with >Win95 as a sim platform. The Voodoo will really have to live up to its >name and create some mighty magic before I am willing to suffer Win95 >for the smoothness a racing or dogfighting sim requires. This means for >"real" performance we may still have to rely on the game being coded for >a specific chip. This I believe is the reasoning behind Sierra's plunge >into the hardware biz. Actually it's a re-plunge. They did the same >thing because they felt the Ad-Lib was the way to go for a soundcard >standard. However, Sierra wasn't able to make that one fly. >-- >**************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I don't agree. Sierra was the largest retailer of Roland MT-32's. When the Sound Blaster came out with digital sound, the whole complexion of audio changed. Then Microsoft came along with the MPC standard, and Sierra wisely got out of the hardware business. We're faced with a similar situation today, and Sierra is probably hoping to jump-start the market again by offering hardware. Once the 3D market stabilizes, they will probably quit the business again. This is the same philosophy that has served Microsoft with the mouse. Dave (davids) Sparks Late Night League http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

EB> Not to start anything here (I respect your opinion) but OS/2 is EB> superior to Win95 in a number of ways =) To right!!! EB> Most obviously the fact that it is a true 32-bit operating system EB> like NT (Win95 is a mix of 16 and 32-bit code). Secondly, it is no EB> secret that is multitasks more effectively than does Win95. And with Merlin (out now in the US, in the UK we're waiting.....!) I'll be launching GP2, ICR2 & Nascar by voice command.....now if Papyrus built in the applets to use OS/2 speech recognition in their menus so I could tell my engineer what setup I wanted...... B-) Cheers! --- * RM 1.3 U0414 * OS/2 has done since '92 what Win95 still cannot in '96.

EB> True, but the fact is just because something is "state of the art" EB> doesn't automatically make it the industry leader. Too true! EB> I shouldn't even bring up the fact that OS/2 Warp is a superior EB> operating system than Win95. Why not??? The fact that Micro$oft have a great lead with the hype companies (eg the press) promoting their goods as THE ONE AND ONLY doesn't make them any better, or other stuff any worse. OS/2 is a damn good OS.....it's not for everone OK, nor is Unix, Win95, NT4.0.....but as far as this conference is concerned, OS/2 allows you to launch our favourite games (eg GP2, ICR2, Nascar) and their add-ons (paintkits, editors, track converters, etc) all from our desktops, without boot disks, mutiple-setups, "dropping into DOS", etc. It's "overheads" seem irrelevant to game performance (for me anyhow). The fact that the hype-zines don't rave about it doesn't make it less good or less worthwhile. So why so coy, secretive, or evasive??? Cheers! --- * RM 1.3 U0414 * I'm a fugitive from the law of averages.

> No, this isn't playing *through* Win'95, it's an actual Win'95 application. > I'd like to hear from anybody who is satisifed with the performance of the > Win'95 version of ICR2. Well, the frame rate sucks compared to DOS version (I have a Millennium and DDraw2 drivers) but I have never experienced any 'lagged' controls. I don't play it because of the frame rate, but I could play a D3D-ready version with a 3D chip ... -- Henrikki (Hena) Hakkanen Tel. +358-(9)0-345 5538 -------------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are mine and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer

Hey Eric, What is your read on how CPU performance will affect the performance of the 3D cards. Will it affect it at all, and if it does, by how much? l8r Todd

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>Subject: Re: Rendition Chip >Date: 6 Oct 1996 16:26:33 GMT >There will be no DOS standard. Like it our not, Win95 and Direct3D is the >future. >-- >Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences >Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ >> When will companies find out that the users want a standard! >> Instead of buying 8 3d cards for every game they play. >> Please VESA make a new standard so every game will use the same chip.

So what about Nascar 2? Thanks 4 the info Eric.

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>Subject: Re: Rendition Chip >Date: 7 Oct 1996 05:08:52 GMT >Some people in the comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video group have posted that >the framerates of the Voodoo port of Decent2 doesn't scale with CPU speed >as would be expected (a P100 reportedly gets close to the same framerates >as a P166 gets). It was explained by one of the 3Dfx designers that >Descent2 draws very few polygons (and the ones it does draw are quite >large). Polygon/sec is more dependent on the processor, as it's the CPU >that is responsible for the bulk of the math (geometry calculations). For >the less polygon intensive games like Descent2, the speed is actually more >heavily dependent on the fill rate, which is mostly determined by the 3D >card being used. So for high polygon count games, the CPU speed will >likely be the main bottle-neck in performance. As for how much, it will >really depend on the individual game. >-- >Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences >Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ >> What is your read on how CPU performance will affect the performance of >the 3D >> cards. Will it affect it at all, and if it does, by how much?

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>> There is one point that you forget in this argument and is the MAIN >reason why VHS and >> another important one. >> 1. Recording time was the big deal at the time. This is why VHS won. >> 2. There was more saturation of VHS on the market. >> Beta had slightly better picture quality, slightly. To a afficinado >that's important to >> Aunt Bess and Uncle Bob, they could careless. They wanted to record >everything, later >> found out they couldn't operate the time record option, doooh!. :) >I know the reasons why Beta didn't become the standard. The fact still >remains it was the superior format, however small the advantage was. >That's all my argument was: the fact that the sometimes an inferior product >can become the industry standard. The reasons for this decision really >don't matter.

There are 2 reasons VHS won the battle: 1) There were more ***o movies at VHS 2) Companies didn't have to pay neither Philips(v2000) or Sony (BETAMAX) for the vhs standard Theo Nieuwstraten

When will companies find out that the users want a standard! Instead of buying 8 3d cards for every game they play. Please VESA make a new standard so every game will use the same chip. Theo Nieuwstraten

There will be no DOS standard. Like it our not, Win95 and Direct3D is the future. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

Some people in the comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video group have posted that the framerates of the Voodoo port of Decent2 doesn't scale with CPU speed as would be expected (a P100 reportedly gets close to the same framerates as a P166 gets). It was explained by one of the 3Dfx designers that Descent2 draws very few polygons (and the ones it does draw are quite large). Polygon/sec is more dependent on the processor, as it's the CPU that is responsible for the bulk of the math (geometry calculations). For the less polygon intensive games like Descent2, the speed is actually more heavily dependent on the fill rate, which is mostly determined by the 3D card being used. So for high polygon count games, the CPU speed will likely be the main bottle-neck in performance. As for how much, it will really depend on the individual game. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

Keep in mind this is all speculation, I could be totally wrong. Because Nascar2 appears to be a high polygon-count game, it should be CPU dependent. Intergraph claims full detailed 30fps for Indycar2 on a something like P90 or P100 (I think I remember seeing this on their web page someplace, but I can't get to it at the moment to check). With Nascar2 being a little more graphically complicated (each car is made of more polygons), I would guess a slightly faster CPU (like a P120 or 133) would give similar framerates. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

I wonder if they have written for the Nvida chipset this time ?? I surpose I find out in 6MB time.......... ----------------------------------------------------------------- Park Group, Southend, Essex. UK -----------------------------------------------------------------

The EDGE is a first generation 3D card and as such it just can't hope to compete with the newly released second generation cards (Verite and Voodoo). Even if Direct3D was supported (I don't think it is yet), I wouldn't expect it to provide much of a real framerate improvement. If anything you would probably get higher image quality but at the cost of framerate. Quoting John Carmack, "The sad thing is that all of the other current accelerator cards have such large setup overhead that they will actually be slower than software, which is why I am refusing to port to s3, ati, etc." -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/