Why does spins always end up backwards ? (GP2)

Is it just me or does 90% of all spins in GP2 end up backwards ? I have had some spins that seems very unreal and it is soooo anoying! Torgeir

Well Torgeir.. It seems, In my and othes opinion, that Microprose, in their infinite wisdom , decided it was easier to program spins in a (not sure of the correct terminology here) loop program instead of modelling proper physics. In other words, everytime you loose the rear end, the same thing happens over and over again.. Hopefully, this can be addressed in a patch as it does take away from a very good game otherwise Randy

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>Well Torgeir.. It seems, In my and othes opinion, that Microprose, in >their infinite wisdom , decided it was easier to program spins in >a (not sure of the correct terminology here) loop program instead >of modelling proper physics. In other words, everytime you loose >the rear end, the same thing happens over and over again.. >Hopefully, this can be addressed in a patch as it does take >away from a very good game otherwise

That's taking rather a pessimistic view of the way things are simulated. Whilst there does seem to be a lot of evidence to indicate that spins are "programmed" rather than accurately modeled, there are two things to remember: (a) This is a _sim_. It _simulates_ the actions. Accurate physical modeling of a spin would require something like a Cray 2. The programmers have taken a pragmatic approach and produced something pretty close to reality - but it's never going to be real. (b) Despite the above, it is possible to have all sorts of spins, slides, etc. I've had 4 wheel drifts, 360 degree spins (as per Mansell <g>), 540 degree spins, catching a spin after 90 degrees & correcting it, etc, etc Where the "sim" bit shows itself is that you can catch a spin with the brakes and if you then release the brakes, it will start accelerating the spin again! Overall though, there is a lot of subtlety in the model. Some of these only appear with a sufficiently subtle control mechanism - i.e. wheel & pedals. Cheers, Richard

: Is it just me or does 90% of all spins in GP2 end up backwards ? : I have had some spins that seems very unreal and it is soooo anoying! Try getting the car into neutral during the spin. This gives me a good chance to control the spin. Of course if you have the "clutch" programmed use it instead. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Nascar models spins resonably well..I find in gp2 the only way to save a spin is too hammer on the brakes...real hard...which is totally opposite to what you should do.. as i am sure you know..and If you have not totally stopped moving and you let off the brakes, you start to spin again. This is no where near realistic. I am sorry..I dont agree..You hit the brakes in a spin and you will have no grip and will continue to go around in real life.. For real if the rear end breaks loose,, you feather the throttle a bit and turn into the spin...you NEVER hit your brakes until its too late..and then thats just so you might stop before you hit something..not to save the car from a spin. I too have a wheel and pedals. Appreciate your comments Randy

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> > Is it just me or does 90% of all spins in GP2 end up backwards ? > > I have had some spins that seems very unreal and it is soooo anoying! > > Torgeir > Nope, it's not you, at least not for the biggest part of it. > When the backend starts to slide a bit, most of the times it results in a > 180 spin. But when I'm really in_to_it/concentrated/possesed/whatever a > lot of these spins I can recover. But only when I'm really,really,..... > It looks to me they copied a bit to much code from the powerturn-routine, > although maybe .... a true F1-car could really be this hard to handle. > *I* have never driven one.[darned]. > -- > ************************* > Dreammaster rules again > ************************* > Windows...brings you yesterday's speed today.

It makes me sad to see you guys that play this game trying to get a good simulation out of it asking a stupid question like that. Power-turn Routine, HAHAHAHA. It's clear that you don't know shit about what you are talking about. Of course the car tend the stay backward's!!! The back is more heavy then the front !!! If you do the reverse track it will do the same thing !!! It's not the "Routine" it's car handling. Stop trying to figure some stupid game mistakes. It's a good car simulation, maybe not even near to F-1 but a damn good car symulation. I garantee it.

:Is it just me or does 90% of all spins in GP2 end up backwards ? :I have had some spins that seems very unreal and it is soooo anoying! : :Torgeir Maybe you should take some driving lessons or attend a course ... It's a matter of knowing when/how to steer and using the brake/throttle wisely when you're car is in a spin... ***************************** * Michel de Rooij *****************************

> Is it just me or does 90% of all spins in GP2 end up backwards ? > I have had some spins that seems very unreal and it is soooo anoying! > Torgeir Nope, it's not you, at least not for the biggest part of it. When the backend starts to slide a bit, most of the times it results in a 180 spin. But when I'm really in_to_it/concentrated/possesed/whatever a lot of these spins I can recover. But only when I'm really,really,..... It looks to me they copied a bit to much code from the powerturn-routine, although maybe .... a true F1-car could really be this hard to handle. *I* have never driven one.[darned]. -- ************************* Dreammaster rules again ************************* Windows...brings you yesterday's speed today.

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>Well Torgeir.. It seems, In my and othes opinion, that Microprose, in >their infinite wisdom , decided it was easier to program spins in >a (not sure of the correct terminology here) loop program instead >of modelling proper physics. In other words, everytime you loose >the rear end, the same thing happens over and over again.. >Hopefully, this can be addressed in a patch as it does take >away from a very good game otherwise

Are you sure this is looped as, although most end up the car backwards I have sometimes been able to drive straight on after a spin. ____________________________ Allez le Paris Saint-Germain

Huhm, I've had some spins where I managed to turn 360 and with the gas all the way down at the right moment, so not loosing too much time... Brian _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- Wisdom is the difference between knowledge and experience.... _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- HomePage : http://www.worldonline.nl/~brian -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

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>>Well Torgeir.. It seems, In my and othes opinion, that Microprose, in >>their infinite wisdom , decided it was easier to program spins in >>a (not sure of the correct terminology here) loop program instead >>of modelling proper physics. In other words, everytime you loose >>the rear end, the same thing happens over and over again.. >>Hopefully, this can be addressed in a patch as it does take >>away from a very good game otherwise >Are you sure this is looped as, although most end up the car backwards >I have sometimes been able to drive straight on after a spin. >____________________________ >Allez le Paris Saint-Germain

I've done a 360 and kept right on going, and have had spins of < 180. Maybe you're just spinning at the same speed at the same place. Consistent anyway. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bob Bruss ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This drives me NUTS. I don't know if it is due to pre-programmed spins, or simply poor physics, but when a car goes off at 180.. gets sideways and hits the wall, it spins all over the place (i.e. ICR2), and it just feels so darn un-natural the way GP2 loses momentum. I've done 360's in weird situations, but more often than not I end up backwards. It also seens that gp2 has pre-programmed behavior for when you drop a wheel off course... it seems NEVER to be recoverable, as if the code says: if (wheelDropped()) { BeginOutOfControlSequence(); } Now... who *really* knows what is to blame, but it sure isn't satisfying as it is.

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> >>Well Torgeir.. It seems, In my and othes opinion, that Microprose, in > >>their infinite wisdom , decided it was easier to program spins in > >>a (not sure of the correct terminology here) loop program instead > >>of modelling proper physics. In other words, everytime you loose > >>the rear end, the same thing happens over and over again.. > I've done a 360 and kept right on going, and have had spins of < 180. > Maybe you're just spinning at the same speed at the same place. > Consistent anyway. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Bob Bruss > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think the reason for the car ending up backwards most of the time can be logically blamed on the fact that the engine + drivetrain are in the rear of an F1 car, therefore the rear end will be heavier. But, I do think there is a problem with the spin model. Right now, the only way to recover a spin is to slam on the brakes. If you let up on the brakes before the spin ends, the spin will resume as before without taking into account the loss of momentum from the braking already done. Hopefully this will be fixed sometime. I have adjusted my reactions to be able to control oversteer and spins in GP2, by locking the brakes, but I sure hope these reflexes to lock up the brakes do not show up in a real emergency when I am driving my real car on the road. Cheers. --John -- ------------------- John (Joao) Silva http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jsilva Seattle, Washington USA.

> It also seens that gp2 has pre-programmed behavior for > when you drop a wheel off course... it seems NEVER to be recoverable, > as if the code says: > if (wheelDropped()) { > BeginOutOfControlSequence(); I don't really agree with this. I haven't been playing for too long, but it seems to me that it much depends on your setup (probably those complicated dampers). I think that slightly putting a wheel on the grass is unrecoverable with a stiff setup, and if you make rough maneuvres while on the grass of course, while a softer one seems to be more forgiving. Going over the kerbs, and a bit further, in the curve di Lesmo or out of the Ascari is where I most notice it. I don't have that many experience with other tracks, but I am sure I will find many other places where to go out ;) Bye, Luca

(Randy Peppler) says... No, you CAN recover from a spin using opposite lock and a trim on the accelerator. I can send you a replay if you want. -- Nicola Salmoria

>But, I do think there is a problem with the spin model. Right now, the only >way to recover a spin is to slam on the brakes. Not true, if you apply the accelerator at the appropriate time, you can recover & keep going - I've done it many a time. Austin, Tx [link lost in import: /~indyfan/] ============================================================ Scott Pruett 1997 PPG Cup Champion! ============================================================

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>This drives me NUTS. I don't know if it is due to pre-programmed spins, or >simply poor physics, but when a car goes off at 180.. gets sideways and hits >the wall, it spins all over the place (i.e. ICR2), and it just feels so >darn un-natural the way GP2 loses momentum. >I've done 360's in weird situations, but more often than not I end up >backwards. It also seens that gp2 has pre-programmed behavior for >when you drop a wheel off course... it seems NEVER to be recoverable, >as if the code says: > if (wheelDropped()) { > BeginOutOfControlSequence(); > } >Now... who *really* knows what is to blame, but it sure isn't satisfying >as it is.

Who *REALLY* is to blame, is the driver that put the wheel off course. DUH. Sheesh. More people blaming someone else for their problems :-)

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>> >>their infinite wisdom , decided it was easier to program spins in >> >>a (not sure of the correct terminology here) loop program instead >> >>of modelling proper physics. In other words, everytime you loose >> >>the rear end, the same thing happens over and over again.. >> I've done a 360 and kept right on going, and have had spins of < 180. >> Maybe you're just spinning at the same speed at the same place. >> Consistent anyway. >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Bob Bruss >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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> This drives me NUTS. I don't know if it is due to pre-programmed spins, or > simply poor physics, but when a car goes off at 180.. gets sideways and hits > the wall, it spins all over the place (i.e. ICR2), and it just feels so > darn un-natural the way GP2 loses momentum. > I've done 360's in weird situations, but more often than not I end up > backwards. It also seens that gp2 has pre-programmed behavior for > when you drop a wheel off course... it seems NEVER to be recoverable, > as if the code says: > if (wheelDropped()) { > BeginOutOfControlSequence(); > } > Now... who *really* knows what is to blame, but it sure isn't satisfying > as it is.

Get a grip man. The spinning things seem just fine to me - you can recover even monumental ones if you have the slightest clue how to drive a road car. And as for "dropping a wheel" (you mean getting a wheel off the tarmac right ?) it is more than controllable. You can't lose the traction of one tire and expect to take the rest of the corner as normal - but you can back off the throttle and ease up on the steering a bit. By the way that bit of code there - sims are nothing like that. It's going to be a very complex physics model with inputs about such things as tire grip, rotation, orientation, throttle etc etc.. when you go on the grass you just end up with less grip at one corner and a good clout to the suspension... -- Ian Rae, DSP Firmware Engineer, | Tel No: +44 1793 565159 Motorola GPD, 16 Euro Way, | E-mail: Blagrove, Swindon, England, SN5 8YQ.| It's a lovely day for a Guinness!

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>Subject: Re: Why does spins always end up backwards ? (GP2) >Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:00:25 +0200 >(Randy Peppler) says... >> I find in gp2 the only way to save a spin is to hammer on the brakes... >No, you CAN recover from a spin using opposite lock and a trim on the >accelerator. I can send you a replay if you want. >-- >Nicola Salmoria

Hmmmm. I will try this. Usually, what I do is try to fight it till it starts to spin, but once it spins, anything you do will actually cause MORE problems. I take the foot of the accelator but I do not brake (unless I am heading for a wall!). As the car starts to spin back to position, slightly accelerate. Depending on your wing setup, you should be able to smoothly get back into position. If you miss time it, you end up going into another spin! Ashraf --- DISCLAIMER: My comments are my own and not necessarily those of my employer OR my service provider. ************************************************************************** Ashraf Ghebranious "If it takes only one person to suppress your religion, then it cant be much of a religion then can it?" - me To find out more about the cult that is Scientology, subscribe to ALT.RELIGION.SCIENTOLOGY. Dont get me wrong, these people are dangerous! "Jesus woman! I dont give a ***!" Rhett Butler, slightly paraphrased **************************************************************************

('John' Joao Silva) says... No it isn't! Replay available on request. -- Nicola Salmoria

>('John' Joao Silva) says... >> Right now, the only >> way to recover a spin is to slam on the brakes. >No it isn't! >Replay available on request. Nicola, Could you please explain a bit more on how to recover from the spins then? I would greatly love to be able to stop stomping on the brakes, but so far that is the only consistent way I have found to recover a spin. Thanks. Cheers. --John -- ------------------- John (Joao) Silva http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jsilva Seattle, Washington USA.

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> ('John' Joao Silva) says... > > Right now, the only > > way to recover a spin is to slam on the brakes. > No it isn't! > Replay available on request. > -- > Nicola Salmoria

I must agree with the first poster. There *IS* something wrong with the way the game handles the car going backwards, since the momentum is not kept. You will find that if you get into a fairly decent spin in the middle of the tarmac, you will not be able to steer whilst the car is going backwards, and also the back wheels don't seem to break traction whilst this is happening, so you end up with the car facing backwards. i.e. if you have sufficient backwards movement then you should be able to J-turn your car by turning the steering wheel and tapping the brakes so that the front wheels slide and you are heading the right way, but this isn't true. There's also another bug that I don't seem to have seen many people writing about in that when you're coming up behind someone else and slipstreaming them, when you pull out to pass you will be flung sideways as the steering help screws up. This is really pissing me off! Mike. -- =========================================================================== | Michael Knowles, NT Server Manager, HITS Group | | Nortel Ltd, London Rd, Harlow, Essex, CM17 9NA. United Kingdom | | |\ |\ | |/ |-- Telephone - (01279) 403100 | | | | \ |__ Mobile - (0385) 371470 | | Fax - (01279) 403030 FaxESN - 6-742-3030 | | Wolverhampton Wanderers, the world's number one football club | | O- Johnny Herbert Fan Club Member No. 855 - Go Johnny Go!!! | ===========================================================================

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('John' Joao Silva) says...

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> >('John' Joao Silva) says... > >> Right now, the only > >> way to recover a spin is to slam on the brakes. > >No it isn't! > >Replay available on request. > Nicola, > Could you please explain a bit more on how to recover from the spins then? > I would greatly love to be able to stop stomping on the brakes, but so > far that is the only consistent way I have found to recover a spin.

Apply opposite lock and slightly accelerate. Of course you have to do this as soon as the car starts to spin - and if the spin is a major one you will not be able to recover from it. Don't expect a 100% success rate. Much depends on the car setup, if it's well balanced the chances to recover are greater. I consider the ability to stop a spin by braking a bug in the simulation, and I categorically refuse to take advantage of it. I'd rather go into the gravel than take advantage of a simulation flaw. After all, if I'm not able to recover from the spin, it means that I don't deserve to. Next time I'll be more careful. -- Nicola Salmoria

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>Apply opposite lock and slightly accelerate. Of course you have to do >this as soon as the car starts to spin - and if the spin is a major one >you will not be able to recover from it. Don't expect a 100% success >rate. Much depends on the car setup, if it's well balanced the chances to >recover are greater. >I consider the ability to stop a spin by braking a bug in the simulation, >and I categorically refuse to take advantage of it. I'd rather go into >the gravel than take advantage of a simulation flaw. After all, if I'm >not able to recover from the spin, it means that I don't deserve to. Next >time I'll be more careful. >-- >Nicola Salmoria

Fair Enough. Thanks I will give that acceleration method a try, maybe my setups need to be adjusted to make better use of that. The slam the brakes on method does feel very unrealistic I will be glad to give that up. Thanks again. Cheers. --John -- ------------------- John (Joao) Silva http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jsilva Seattle, Washington USA.