Who the hell did they make GP2 for?

NASA? I have a p166,16megs EDOram,ATI Mach 64 video card with 2 megs and still cant run in full detail Any way ICR2 IS MUCH MORE REALISTIC i MEAN WHO EVER HEARD OF HITTING A WALL AT 160+ AND ONLY DAMAGING YOUR WING COME ON!

: NASA? I have a p166,16megs EDOram,ATI Mach 64 video card with 2 megs and : still cant run in full detail Any way ICR2 IS MUCH MORE REALISTIC i MEAN : WHO EVER HEARD OF HITTING A WALL AT 160+ AND ONLY DAMAGING YOUR WING : COME ON! dont hit the wall then. (should be easier since you arent driving a traction-less model) ------- Carlos Ribas President MalSoft http://www.nol.net/~draconis

It is a simulator, which means it is about trying NOT hitting walls at 160+. I suppose you'd like your monitor to crash too ? Like a windshield would ? GP2 is a great Formula One sim. nuf said. Greetz, Martin -- DISCLAIMER : This Statement is not an official statement from, nor does it represent an official position of, PTT Telecom B.V. Tin will not rust or give in but melts directly when heated =B-)

In Indy2 you only have to touch thge wall at 5mph & the wheel comes off :( Rob

There is actually a new utility that lets you control the level of damage in gp2. I saw it on some guy's page... I forget which one. Josh

>NASA? I have a p166,16megs EDOram,ATI Mach 64 video card with 2 megs and >still cant run in full detail Any way ICR2 IS MUCH MORE REALISTIC i MEAN >WHO EVER HEARD OF HITTING A WALL AT 160+ AND ONLY DAMAGING YOUR WING >COME ON! Well, I am rather enjoying it! I was disappointed by the graphics to start with, but I actually reckon now that I can get a pretty much identical frame rate with slightly _more_ graphics options on in GP2! ICR2 models damage very well, but it has no concept at all of kerbs which requires a very different driving style. You gain some, you lose some. They are both great sims (but a combined effort would be superb <g>) Richard

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>>NASA? I have a p166,16megs EDOram,ATI Mach 64 video card with 2 megs and >>still cant run in full detail Any way ICR2 IS MUCH MORE REALISTIC i MEAN >>WHO EVER HEARD OF HITTING A WALL AT 160+ AND ONLY DAMAGING YOUR WING >>COME ON! >Well, I am rather enjoying it! >I was disappointed by the graphics to start with, but I actually >reckon now that I can get a pretty much identical frame rate with >slightly _more_ graphics options on in GP2!

Ya, strangely, I've noticed the same thing on my machine. GP2 has a faster graphics engine. I've said it before, and I'll say it again- I think FIA went for the full endor***t on GP2 ("Official Product of the FIA") because they realize the potential fan-gain of an incredible game featuring their sport. Look at NASCAR- all over the world, Papy's NASCAR had made fans. I get the feeling FIA keeps as much a watch out now for NASCAR as for it's traditional rival, IndyCar. Certainly in the US, there is no competition. Indycar needs the same kind of sim. ICR2 is good, but let's face it- it is flawed, and we already know that a) Sierra has no intentions of finishing it, and b) Sierra isn't interested in pursuing any more Indy projects. We'll never get a real "patch", much less ever *CURBS* in there! If the IndyCar guys get smart, they'll take the initiative to get involved and give full support to a GP2-quality Indycar sim. I have no idea how that sort of thing is pursued, but it seems to me that with the kind of money advertisers throw around in CART, what is a few million dollars, especially when it has the potential for many-times-over returns? Imagine somehow getting Geoff Crammond to share his graphics know-how with a group of the original Papyrus guys to make an Indy-style sim. It would be good for business all around, for all racing. The fact is, racing sims (in conjunction with ever more powerful PCs) are finally at the point where they aren't just the pastime of hard-core race fans, like they used to be when they had pitiful FM sound and blobs for cars. Now they are, as evidenced by GP2, almost as seductive to non-race fans as, say, Doom was- the player enters a virtual reality, things feel/look/sound real. Picture Monaco at full detail, even VGA- that is as visually interesting as anything in the Quake demo- and you don't have to shoot weird grub-like things! Result: the games are making fans. Ditto. I've gotten 3 people to buy GP2 who otherwise couldn't sit and watch an F1 race to save their lives. Now they're all in to it. I've got my F1 sim, and i am having a hard time getting in to ICR2 now. Trying to race Mid-Ohio after Hungary is an incredible step down... with both races this weekend, I'm forced to really pit them side by side. Come on, Sierra- at least pay Crammond (or someone) $1 meg to put curbs in there!!! And get some engaging sounds while you're at it. Papyrus certainly knew how to make a sim, but they were always a bit rough on the edges. Geoff Crammond seems to have learned the trick of making a real sim, and also knows how to get the "superficial details" right so the package doesn't just work for obsessed sim fans (like me). Who do we petition/scream at for a GP2-style IndyCar sim!? Visiware? Psygnosis? CART?

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>I've said it before, and I'll say it again- I think FIA went for the >full endor***t on GP2 ("Official Product of the FIA") because they >realize the potential fan-gain of an incredible game featuring their >sport. Look at NASCAR- all over the world, Papy's NASCAR had made >fans. I get the feeling FIA keeps as much a watch out now for NASCAR >as for it's traditional rival, IndyCar. Certainly in the US, there is >no competition.

I follow (and agree with) the rest of your post, but I suspect that the money that Microprose had to pay the FIA had more to do with the endor***t than any aim to attract more fans. Remember that the license is based on the 1994 season, so FIA wouldn't have had much chance to assess the impact of NASCAR (and certainly not Hawaii). Well, I guess it should be _curbs_ for Indy. Still _kerbs_ for an F1 sim written by a Brit though <G> I think it would be a waste to put an Indy sim on the GP2 graphics engine. IMHO there is far more potential in producing a sim (whether Indy, F1 or otherwise) that took the best of both sets of programmers as in every department they could learn from each other. <snip> <snip> NASCAR 2 & NRL may just show the way to CART, so it might be worth giving them a try. Personally, I would steer clear of Sierra though. Much better if the programming is by a small team who know & love what they are doing (e.g. Papy, GC & co). Richard

> NASA? I have a p166,16megs EDOram,ATI Mach 64 video card with 2 megs and > still cant run in full detail Any way ICR2 IS MUCH MORE REALISTIC i MEAN > WHO EVER HEARD OF HITTING A WALL AT 160+ AND ONLY DAMAGING YOUR WING > COME ON! Obviously better drivers than you!

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>>I've said it before, and I'll say it again- I think FIA went for the >>full endor***t on GP2 ("Official Product of the FIA") because they >>realize the potential fan-gain of an incredible game featuring their >>sport. Look at NASCAR- all over the world, Papy's NASCAR had made >>fans. I get the feeling FIA keeps as much a watch out now for NASCAR >>as for it's traditional rival, IndyCar. Certainly in the US, there is >>no competition. >I follow (and agree with) the rest of your post, but I suspect that >the money that Microprose had to pay the FIA had more to do with the >endor***t than any aim to attract more fans. Remember that the >license is based on the 1994 season, so FIA wouldn't have had much >chance to assess the impact of NASCAR (and certainly not Hawaii). >>Indycar needs the same kind of sim. ICR2 is good, but let's face it- >>it is flawed, and we already know that a) Sierra has no intentions of >>finishing it, and b) Sierra isn't interested in pursuing any more Indy >>projects. We'll never get a real "patch", much less ever *CURBS* in >>there! >Well, I guess it should be _curbs_ for Indy. Still _kerbs_ for an F1 >sim written by a Brit though <G> >>If the IndyCar guys get smart, they'll take the initiative to get >>involved and give full support to a GP2-quality Indycar sim. I have no >>idea how that sort of thing is pursued, but it seems to me that with >>the kind of money advertisers throw around in CART, what is a few >>million dollars, especially when it has the potential for >>many-times-over returns? Imagine somehow getting Geoff Crammond to >>share his graphics know-how with a group of the original Papyrus guys >>to make an Indy-style sim. It would be good for business all around, >>for all racing.

Apparently several programmers on the forum have taken a peak at Crammonds graphics code and found it wanting.... hmmmm...

>NASA? I have a p166,16megs EDOram,ATI Mach 64 video card with 2 megs and >still cant run in full detail Any way ICR2 IS MUCH MORE REALISTIC i MEAN >WHO EVER HEARD OF HITTING A WALL AT 160+ AND ONLY DAMAGING YOUR WING >COME ON! Couldn't sayd that better! Papyrus fan.

<lots snipped> This sounds interesting, I'd like to know more about it. What forum would get to see his code?

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><lots snipped> >>>>many-times-over returns? Imagine somehow getting Geoff Crammond to >>>>share his graphics know-how with a group of the original Papyrus guys >>>>to make an Indy-style sim. It would be good for business all around, >>>>for all racing. >>Apparently several programmers on the forum have taken a peak at >>Crammonds graphics code and found it wanting.... hmmmm... >This sounds interesting, I'd like to know more about it. What forum >would get to see his code?

The Assembly code.... Not actual source..

: >>for all racing. : : Apparently several programmers on the forum have taken a peak at : Crammonds graphics code and found it wanting.... hmmmm... yeh, but the graphics engine itself seems nicer than papyrus'... now if it would just output the scene it creates using a modern video standard.. ------- Carlos Ribas President MalSoft http://www.nol.net/~draconis

>>NASA? I have a p166,16megs EDOram,ATI Mach 64 video card with 2 megs and >>still cant run in full detail Any way ICR2 IS MUCH MORE REALISTIC i MEAN >>WHO EVER HEARD OF HITTING A WALL AT 160+ AND ONLY DAMAGING YOUR WING >>COME ON! >Couldn't sayd that better! >Papyrus fan. I feel like I get a reasonably good impression of what it's like to drive an F1 car, with the sim itself making some good assumptions about my driving characteristics (a forgiving nature). Michael Carver put it in perspective when he stated that the differences in GP2 and ICR2 perhaps reflect "artistic" and "programming" (some paraphrasing, sorry MEC) approaches, with ICR2 forcing you to come up to speed with driving an Indycar, and GP2 doing some of that for you up front. Or maybe it's just those excellent F1 engineers doing their job staying up late at night setting up the car for me just right, even after I tinker with the setup! :) I'm a fan of both sims, and find enough variety in both to keep me racing long into the night. I'm hoping that GPDAMED will help with the realism factor in GP2, though, although I don't think GP2 or ICR2 will ever be real enough for everyone in this newsgroup. Kyle

Well, I've played ICR2 and GP2 and I believe ICR2 is a much better sim-game. In ICR2 the car and the track are two different objects. GP2 is not a sim-game. When the track turns to left, you can't really turn right. When you are finishing a turn, the car allways goes to the outside, either you accelerate or not. GP2 is just much more beautiful than GP1. It is still not a simmulator! :-( Humberto

>>>NASA? I have a p166,16megs EDOram,ATI Mach 64 video card with 2 megs and >>>still cant run in full detail Any way ICR2 IS MUCH MORE REALISTIC i MEAN >>>WHO EVER HEARD OF HITTING A WALL AT 160+ AND ONLY DAMAGING YOUR WING >>>COME ON! >>Couldn't sayd that better! >>Papyrus fan. I'm not sure damage is so forgiving at "Pro" level or beyond. At least, that is a rumour that I read somewhere in here. Crammond wanted this to be an arcade for non-simmers, and a sim for hard-core people like us. Problem is, I think a lot of simmers are accidentally driving with helps on that they don't even know are on, put there for the average-Joe users. It is hard to know what is what in this extremely complicated interface. Frankly, I have never thought ICR2 cars look like they act like real indycars- real indycars look a lot more... crisp, taught, on-the-ground. In ICR2, I always feel like I'm on a ***oline, or walkin in one of those inflated "Moon Walk" things at fairs, every accelleration has a certain "...here we go!" quality that drives me to distraction sometimes. GP2, with all the helps off, is just as hard to drive, I find. But it seems easier because you sense so many more cues that make the car seem real. there is MUCH better feedback to the racer. The sounds, for one, are AMAZING- drive with headphones; it reflects every nuance of throttle pressure, the gear changes are fantastic. I understand why Crammond went for only solo car sound- it is better to get ONE car absolutely right than 5 or 6 mediocre. And the "kerbs" (or "curbs") make the sense of being on a real road so much more real and intense. [BTW- to MP/Crammond- there are some stereo bugs in the sound you need to patch. Right hand curbs are in the right ear, but so are left! Or is it just me hearing this?] Hey, I am damn glad ICR2 exists, even in the un-finished form it appears it will remain in. I love indycar, and I make a point of always racing the simulated tracks before real races. ICR2 sort of irks me though, because it simply isn't up to it's potential. So many small improvements could be made, and the thing would be an absolute killer app- the potential is in it. I've been writing Papyrus with suggestions since... November- little did I know what was happening with Sierra. It is 1:21a.m., and i just finished a FULL LENGTH race at Hungary! I am a fan of both too. What is GPDAMED? I hear there are a bunch of other F1 sims coming out, Psygnosis, Visiware, or whatever- one of those? Why won't another company take on IndyCars?!? At least buy ICR2 off of Sierra, who isn't going to continue with the development.

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>>>>Indycar needs the same kind of sim. ICR2 is good, but let's face >it- >>>>it is flawed, and we already know that a) Sierra has no intentions >of >>>>finishing it, and b) Sierra isn't interested in pursuing any more >Indy >>>>projects. We'll never get a real "patch", much less ever *CURBS* in >>>>there! >Well, I've played ICR2 and GP2 and I believe ICR2 is a much better >sim-game. In ICR2 the car and the track are two different objects. GP2 >is not a sim-game. When the track turns to left, you can't really turn >right. When you are finishing a turn, the car allways goes to the >outside, either you accelerate or not. GP2 is just much more beautiful >than GP1. It is still not a simmulator! :-(

I think you'll find you have inadvertantly been playing with the beginner's help features on- when you turn off "Steering Help" and "Opposite Lock Help" (both inexplicably found under "Advanced Controller Menu"), and also "Auto Spin Recovery" (F3), you'll have a different impression of the sim. Those are really nice features for beginners, and make the game much more accessable to people who don't want to take the time to outlast the learning curve... but I wish Crammond hadn't put them in such an obscure place. In fact, they should have been F-keys, like braking and shift help. I guess having them on for default was wise for all the people who won't ever get deeply in to it, but it has turned out to be a problem for many real sim aficianados who never got to that obscure menu item. Anyway, I really love GP2, and I am actually a bigger Indycar fan than F1 fan in general. I hear a lot of people who are irritated with it, or don't think it was worth the wait. But I just don't get it- I think it is better than what I expected, and I am amazed at how closely the sim matches what I see or think I'd feel if I were driving, from what I know from only watching real F1 races. The pit stops are amazing, the AI is great, the starts are great. If anything, Crammond put TOO MUCH in there for most people to sort out in anything less than a month. I don't mind, really, since I think it is all in there, just hard to figure out- such as getting replays, or studying the telemetry, or getting setup terms straight, knowing what is and what is not saved in a saved race, knowing what "random" versus "all the same" means, the initially VERY confusing graphics options, on and on. Crammond wanted it to be an arcade for non-sim types, and a real sim for people willing to spend a month or two figuring out all the details. I think it isn't quite easy enough for an arcade for many (and needs a crazy fast computer for that effect), and the real sim people are missing the detail that takes time to sort out.I'm still trying to figure out what some lights in the***pit are. In the final balance, there are only minor details I'd want changed, I think Crammond went well beyond the quality I expected to see.

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>Well, I've played ICR2 and GP2 and I believe ICR2 is a much better >sim-game. In ICR2 the car and the track are two different objects. GP2 >is not a sim-game. When the track turns to left, you can't really turn >right. When you are finishing a turn, the car allways goes to the >outside, either you accelerate or not. GP2 is just much more beautiful >than GP1. It is still not a simmulator! :-( >Humberto

Ola Humberto :) You should try to play with the steering help off. That is the reason that the car is trying to turn itself. You have to disable "steering help" in the controls options. Be aware that you will not be able to turn off steering help if you are playing with keyboard control. Gp2 is a pretty decent simulator, the only unrealistic arcade-like part is the damage model and the way that damage is repaired so quickly. Otherwise it is a great sim. Cheers. --John -- ------------------- John (Joao) Silva http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jsilva Seattle, Washington USA.

>Well, I've played ICR2 and GP2 and I believe ICR2 is a much better >sim-game. In ICR2 the car and the track are two different objects. GP2 >is not a sim-game. When the track turns to left, you can't really turn >right. When you are finishing a turn, the car allways goes to the >outside, either you accelerate or not. GP2 is just much more beautiful >than GP1. It is still not a simmulator! :-( Have you turned off the steering help in the control setup screen?

I play with the keyboard. I can't turn off Steering Help. The game does'nt allow it. =:( Humberto

I hear the curb sounds coming out of the correct speaker (Vibra 16 sound card). -- +------------------+--------------------------------------------+ | G. Warren Abao | Official BBL Jacksonville Jaguars Website: | +------------------++------------------------+------------------+ | SPOOOOOOOOOOON!!! | BBL Jacksonville 2-1 | IFL Chicago 11-7 | +-------------------+------------------------+------------------+

>Well, I've played ICR2 and GP2 and I believe ICR2 is a much better >sim-game. In ICR2 the car and the track are two different objects. GP2 >is not a sim-game. When the track turns to left, you can't really turn >right. When you are finishing a turn, the car allways goes to the >outside, either you accelerate or not. Try taking steering help off, and try again. --- Bob Mallett - Computer Professional Remember: While the Arc was built by amateurs, it was professionals who built the Titanic - Richard Needham M.P.

Since last week, the MP Analyser has been hit pretty hard. The server that handled this service was on it's knees. :-) I have moved it to http://www2.card.unc.edu/~ivl/mpinfo.html This is machine that has more memory. Hopefully that will help. In the meantime, please don't overuse the service. I am in the process of coming up with a way to limit the output to certain time intervals. Until then, every hit has to go through the entire database. Thank you, David Martin

>>[BTW- to MP/Crammond- there are some stereo bugs in the sound you need >>to patch. Right hand curbs are in the right ear, but so are left! Or >>is it just me hearing this?] >I hear the curb sounds coming out of the correct speaker (Vibra 16 sound card). Hmmm... I wonder what is going on. I am definitely hearing both curbs, but when hit on the right, I hear right, when hit on the left, it sounds more like both speakers , but still heavier to the right. I've got a SB16 card. I'd love to get this stereo thing straight.Maybe I need to completely remove my speakers when I use the headphones. Out of the speakers, I can't really tell where anything comes from; sort of like mono.

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>>>[BTW- to MP/Crammond- there are some stereo bugs in the sound you need >>>to patch. Right hand curbs are in the right ear, but so are left! Or >>>is it just me hearing this?] >>I hear the curb sounds coming out of the correct speaker (Vibra 16 sound card). >Hmmm... I wonder what is going on. I am definitely hearing both curbs, >but when hit on the right, I hear right, when hit on the left, it >sounds more like both speakers , but still heavier to the right. I've >got a SB16 card. I'd love to get this stereo thing straight.Maybe I >need to completely remove my speakers when I use the headphones. Out >of the speakers, I can't really tell where anything comes from; sort >of like mono.

No there is really a bug there, I didn't notice it until I started playing it using headphones, sometimes the sound for hitting the curb on the right gets played on the left speaker. Not always though which is strange. Should be not to difficult for them to fix. Cheers. --John -- ------------------- John (Joao) Silva http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jsilva Seattle, Washington USA.

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> >I think you'll find you have inadvertantly been playing with the > >beginner's help features on- when you turn off "Steering Help" and > >"Opposite Lock Help" (both inexplicably found under "Advanced > >Controller Menu"), and also "Auto Spin Recovery" (F3), you'll have a > >different impression of the sim. > I play with the keyboard. I can't turn off Steering Help. The game > does'nt allow it. =:( > Humberto

Well, if you want to play it more like a sim, then you shouldn't be playing with a keyboard anyway, get an analogue Joystick or Steering Wheel and then you can turn off steering help, and turn right when a corner turns left ;). -- Bruno Schleich Pt/Lx

I get the same results with a PAS16 sound card. I recall hearing properly separated stereo sound on one circuit but can't remember which one it was. ds.

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>>>[BTW- to MP/Crammond- there are some stereo bugs in the sound you need >>>to patch. Right hand curbs are in the right ear, but so are left! Or >>>is it just me hearing this?] >>I hear the curb sounds coming out of the correct speaker (Vibra 16 sound card). >Hmmm... I wonder what is going on. I am definitely hearing both curbs, >but when hit on the right, I hear right, when hit on the left, it >sounds more like both speakers , but still heavier to the right. I've >got a SB16 card. I'd love to get this stereo thing straight.Maybe I >need to completely remove my speakers when I use the headphones. Out >of the speakers, I can't really tell where anything comes from; sort >of like mono.

Hehe, plus I think that Geoff missed the gravity by a few m/s^2. Look at it, you touch wheels, at 60mph, and the car comes down in about 2-3 seconds (occupacy doesn't go over 80% so YES, time IS a constant in this case). Quite a long time. You drive over a curb, say 30. Again, car has a tendency to fly, roll about 45 degrees and stay in the air for about 2 seconds. Don't believe it? Try a start at Monza for example (or Monaco or Hungaroring). If you manage to gain about 10 or 15 spots from the back of the pack, try to squeeze a few AI cars on your way to the front and watch their front lifting in your mirrors. They don't come down for about 2 seconds. They should either flip due to the lift, or come down in less than a second. Yeah. It perfectly simulates the FIA, the brains of F1 drivers and the handling of an F1 car! <GGG> Later, Dave.

>>I was disappointed by the graphics to start with, but I actually >>reckon now that I can get a pretty much identical frame rate with >>slightly _more_ graphics options on in GP2! >Ya, strangely, I've noticed the same thing on my machine. GP2 has a >faster graphics engine. I'm not sure about this. I can run ICR2 with 30fps, VGA, all details on 25 cars drawn ahead, 7 heard - Smooth on starts (starting in the back of the pack). On all tracks. I got no textures on track, grass and sky. Ttrack, verges and curbs in the mirror, no textures. Starting at the back of the pack in Hungary, with a 25 fps, I get an occupacy of 140%! Doesn't this mean the ICR2 graphics engine is MUCH, MUCH faster (prolly more optimized) than GP2? BTW, got a p166, 16EDO, 512k pb, DS64 2DRAM. Yes. But when you look at Indy tracks, they do not have that many curbs compared to F1 tracks. Every F1 track has curbs. In Indy, not all the tracks have curbs. I could be wrong though... Unfortunatelly, from my experience, 90% of all those newbies are more interested in crashing AI, than racing the AI. :( The graphics in GP2 aren't that great. When you look at all the trees in Hungary, Hockenheim, Monza, etc., it all looks like it's painted on a wall. No 3d what's so ever. A few trees do have a 3d effect type-a-deal. But there is a LOT of trees "painted" on the wall. One other thing. I don't know if someone else found out about this. When I race (either GP2 or ICR2 - doesn't matter) I look far ahead. I.e., entering a corner, I look for the exit, that way I can locate the apex better and find faster ways exitting the turn. That's the way how I used to do it in go karts. For some reason, with a lot of details on, my eyes kinda start hurting. Obviously, real thing isn't the same as the sims. I tried putting less track side details on the screen and it's a little bit better. Anyone else? Or is it just me... Dave.

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>>>I was disappointed by the graphics to start with, but I actually >>>reckon now that I can get a pretty much identical frame rate with >>>slightly _more_ graphics options on in GP2! >>Ya, strangely, I've noticed the same thing on my machine. GP2 has a >>faster graphics engine. > I'm not sure about this. I can run ICR2 with 30fps, VGA, all >details on 25 cars drawn ahead, 7 heard - Smooth on starts (starting >in the back of the pack). On all tracks. > I got no textures on track, grass and sky. Ttrack, verges and curbs >in the mirror, no textures. Starting at the back of the pack in >Hungary, with a 25 fps, I get an occupacy of 140%! > Doesn't this mean the ICR2 graphics engine is MUCH, MUCH faster >(prolly more optimized) than GP2? > BTW, got a p166, 16EDO, 512k pb, DS64 2DRAM. >>Indycar needs the same kind of sim. ICR2 is good, but let's face it- >>it is flawed, and we already know that a) Sierra has no intentions of >>finishing it, and b) Sierra isn't interested in pursuing any more Indy >>projects. We'll never get a real "patch", much less ever *CURBS* in >>there! > Yes. But when you look at Indy tracks, they do not have that many >curbs compared to F1 tracks. Every F1 track has curbs. In Indy, not >all the tracks have curbs. I could be wrong though... >>Result: the games are making fans. Ditto. I've gotten 3 people to buy >>GP2 who otherwise couldn't sit and watch an F1 race to save their >>lives. Now they're all in to it. > Unfortunatelly, from my experience, 90% of all those newbies are >more interested in crashing AI, than racing the AI. :( >>at it. Papyrus certainly knew how to make a sim, but they were always >>a bit rough on the edges. Geoff Crammond seems to have learned the >>trick of making a real sim, and also knows how to get the "superficial >>details" right so the package doesn't just work for obsessed sim fans >>(like me). > The graphics in GP2 aren't that great. When you look at all the >trees in Hungary, Hockenheim, Monza, etc., it all looks like it's >painted on a wall. No 3d what's so ever. A few trees do have a 3d >effect type-a-deal. But there is a LOT of trees "painted" on the >wall. > One other thing. I don't know if someone else found out about >this. When I race (either GP2 or ICR2 - doesn't matter) I look far >ahead. I.e., entering a corner, I look for the exit, that way I can >locate the apex better and find faster ways exitting the turn. That's >the way how I used to do it in go karts. For some reason, with a lot >of details on, my eyes kinda start hurting. Obviously, real thing >isn't the same as the sims. I tried putting less track side details >on the screen and it's a little bit better. Anyone else? Or is it >just me... >Dave.

Are you getting such poor frame rates at your Hungary start because of the smoke? That smoke is an absolute killer at the begginning of races (or anywhere else for that matter). I have a 150 oc'd to 166 and I run all textures except track and sky, details high, and all objects in mirrors w/out textures and I get comparable framerates to ICR2. GP2 is doing alot more graphically with the light sourcing and much more extensive texture-mapping.

>Are you getting such poor frame rates at your Hungary start because of >the smoke? That smoke is an absolute killer at the begginning of races I know Snoke boosts the occupacy. But I am talking about the first seconds of the start, even before the red light comes on. Or even after start, say Monza, approaching the first turn. I got about 12 cars on screen, and a slow-mo sim. Yes. I did realize they have that light sourcing stuff on cars. And I think that's great. But that is MP's _problem_. You can't turn down the details on the cars. Same with light sourcing. It's a nice feature, but I couldn't care less when I'm racing. You think I see (or care about) some sorts of light shades on the cars ahead of me looking from the***pit? All this ***slows down the "sim". Don't know how much cpu time the shading takes up, but I still have the impression the ICR2 GFX engine is optimized from hell. :) Take care, Dave. -- David Kadlcak [link lost in import: /~kadlcak] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Papyrus Racing Organization [link lost in import: /~kadlcak/racing/pro] * (PRO94, PRO95, PRO96) Laurin & Klement Racing [link lost in import: /~kadlcak/racing/lkr.html] * PRO96 #18 * PRO95 #58 * IVGA #2552 IndyCar Racing II page [link lost in import: /~kadlcak/racing/icr2.html] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Laurin & Klement Racing: PRO95 Teams Champion!!!

: One other thing. I don't know if someone else found out about : this. When I race (either GP2 or ICR2 - doesn't matter) I look far : ahead. I.e., entering a corner, I look for the exit, that way I can : locate the apex better and find faster ways exitting the turn. That's : the way how I used to do it in go karts. For some reason, with a lot : of details on, my eyes kinda start hurting. Obviously, real thing : isn't the same as the sims. I tried putting less track side details : on the screen and it's a little bit better. Anyone else? Or is it : just me... I save the eye-candy for replays or for sight-seeing. I agree with you on the above. It's easier to let the brain shut things out in real life, but it is harder when they are plastered on the screen 3 feet from your nose. Also your approach to driving ahead is the way to drive. You want to concentrate on where you want to be. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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>>Indycar needs the same kind of sim. ICR2 is good, but let's face it- >>it is flawed, and we already know that a) Sierra has no intentions of >>finishing it, and b) Sierra isn't interested in pursuing any more Indy >>projects. We'll never get a real "patch", much less ever *CURBS* in >>there! > Yes. But when you look at Indy tracks, they do not have that many >curbs compared to F1 tracks. Every F1 track has curbs. In Indy, not >all the tracks have curbs. I could be wrong though...

True, IndyCar tracks don't have as many curbs as F1 tracks. However, the fact is that there ARE curbs on IndyCar tracks and Papyrus hasn't bothered to put them in ICR2. -- +------------------+--------------------------------------------+ | G. Warren Abao | http://users.southeast.net/~wabao/ifl | +------------------++------------------------+------------------+ | SPOOOOOOOOOOON!!! | BBL Jacksonville 3-1 | IFL Chicago 11-7 | +-------------------+------------------------+------------------+