GP2 *Contest* -- Monza Times

>What are your best times submitted for the contest?? Has anyone done under >1:22? (Remember - your lap has to be done in practice; the car actually goes >faster in qualifying.) > >Josh Beaulieu > I was greatly e***d by this contest when I first saw it. But after closely reading the rules it became apparent that anyone with a keyboard was going to obliterate my times because I use wheel and pedals. So now, who cares? Someone who drives their simulated F1 car with a keyboard is gonna get that trip to Laguna Seca. What a waste.... Clark

What are your best times submitted for the contest?? Has anyone done under 1:22? (Remember - your lap has to be done in practice; the car actually goes faster in qualifying.) Josh Beaulieu

> >What are your best times submitted for the contest?? Has anyone done under > >1:22? (Remember - your lap has to be done in practice; the car actually goes

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> >faster in qualifying.) > >Josh Beaulieu >I was greatly e***d by this contest when I first saw it. But after closely >reading the rules it became apparent that anyone with a keyboard was going >to obliterate my times because I use wheel and pedals. So now, who cares? >Someone who drives their simulated F1 car with a keyboard is gonna get that >trip to Laguna Seca. What a waste.... >Clark

HAHAHAHAH. My thoughts exactly! The guy that wins is gonna sit in the***pit if one of those cars and go "Huh?" when they don't see a keyboard. Really sucks that all those weenies drving with 2 fingers are going faster than us with wheels and pedals. A big part of this is steering help. I will say this rite now, IF YOU USE STEERING HELP, THEN YOU"RE CHEATING! Plain and simple.......

> HAHAHAHAH. My thoughts exactly! The guy that wins is gonna sit in the***pit > if one of those cars and go "Huh?" when they don't see a keyboard. Really sucks > that all those weenies drving with 2 fingers are going faster than us with > wheels and pedals. A big part of this is steering help. I will say this rite > now, IF YOU USE STEERING HELP, THEN YOU"RE CHEATING! Plain and simple....... The same applies to traction help, IMO!! Yeah, it's as simple ... -- Henrikki (Hena) Hakkanen Tel. +358-(9)0-345 5538 -------------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are mine and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer

Why do you say that?? You have more control with a wheel/pedal combo. :-\ Josh

I beg to differ... I use a T1. Josh

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Why so? -- +------------------+--------------------------------------------+ | G. Warren Abao | Official BBL Jacksonville Jaguars Website: | +------------------++------------------------+------------------+ | SPOOOOOOOOOOON!!! | BBL Jacksonville 1-1 | IFL Chicago 11-7 | +-------------------+------------------------+------------------+

I dunno, but it does. See it for yourself -- watch to see the top speed of your car on the straight (practice), then do it again in non-championship race... Josh

>(Remember - your lap has to be done in practice; the car actually goes >faster in qualifying.) Are you sure? My top speed seems to be the same. Nicola Salmoria

How do you know all the fastest times are being set by people using keys? The best I got is a 1.23.321 using keys. I have just received my 'cockpit' from a friend, and as soon as I get the thing connected....! Watch this space.. ------------- Richard Sobey Are you browning your browns?

>>(Remember - your lap has to be done in practice; the car actually goes >>faster in qualifying.) >Are you sure? My top speed seems to be the same. I get the impression that GP2 in race mode engages in the same silliness that F1GP did regarding randomly altering the car's characteristics to simulate "track conditions". I noticed after extensive testing at Barcelona that when going into a Q session during a non-champ race, I had noticably less grip than during unlimited practice (the car snapped into oversteer in the right-left flick at the start, which I had expended considerable energy preventing in unl' practice). Anyone else noticed if the car's handling and/or top speed changes noticably between sessions? --

{snip} >Anyone else noticed if the car's handling and/or top speed changes >noticably between sessions? >-- I`ve noticed (as have many others apparently) that using the same setup, fuel load and fresh tyres I am quicker in a qualifying session than a practice. I`ve definitely noticed a straigtline speed improvement at Monza in qualifying. During a v.short race at Interlagos (11 laps) I was running with the same fuel load and set up as in practice, yet my car had suddenly developed snap oversteer at corner entry. Mark _________________________________ "..every lap I think `Oh bollocks! This is dreadful..`" Damon Hill __________________________________

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>> >What are your best times submitted for the contest?? Has anyone done under >> >1:22? (Remember - your lap has to be done in practice; the car actually >goes >> >faster in qualifying.) >> >Josh Beaulieu >>I was greatly e***d by this contest when I first saw it. But after closely >>reading the rules it became apparent that anyone with a keyboard was going >>to obliterate my times because I use wheel and pedals. So now, who cares? >>Someone who drives their simulated F1 car with a keyboard is gonna get that >>trip to Laguna Seca. What a waste.... >>Clark >HAHAHAHAH. My thoughts exactly! The guy that wins is gonna sit in the***pit >if one of those cars and go "Huh?" when they don't see a keyboard. Really sucks >that all those weenies drving with 2 fingers are going faster than us with >wheels and pedals. A big part of this is steering help. I will say this rite >now, IF YOU USE STEERING HELP, THEN YOU"RE CHEATING! Plain and simple.......

Then I will say this right now. WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO BUY A STEERING WHEEL JUST TO PLAY A GAME THAT I ALREDAY BOUGHT? Why should I have to pay arround 200 pounds on an additional peice of equipment just to fully enjoy a game costing just 30 pounds? And how is using a KEYBOARD in a COMPUTER game competition CHEATING? Its not as if I have just gone out and bought myself an advantage over everyone who can't afford a steering wheel. And it's not as if you havent got a keyboard either. Or do you use your steering wheel and pedals for your word processor as well? If you want to play with the steering wheel then fine, but please don't *** about other people playing with a keyboard, espically when sitting in front of your computer is A KEYBOARD! In my opinion it would be stupid if the steerng wheel is faster, because that would put everyone who could not afford a steering wheel at a disadvantage. Don't forget that using a steerng wheel is an OPTION. Maybe you should write to who ever is running that competion for two classes? note:- I know you said that using steering help was cheating (not using the keyboard was cheating), but since steering help cannot be turned off with the keyboard, my argument still stands. (in my opinion steerng help is GP2's best feature) By the way - has it been PROVEN yet that keyboard is faster than steering wheel? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- If you believe in the light, its because of obscurity If you believe in happiness, its because of unhappiness If you believe in God, its because of the Devil Father X - Exorcist, church of Notre Dame, Paris ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Definitely. Try running a QUAL/Practice session, and then go into the race with exactly the same setup and laps of fuel - you will be seconds per lap slower. :( This is a tad annoying. Cheers! John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ ________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____/ * Sim Racing News * \____|::|__| \ /______:/ \::/ http://sneezy.dcn.ed.ac.uk/simnews/index.htm \::/ \._____\ http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/~harmon/simnews

I was actually faster... Josh

I guess, I must be doing something wrong, perhaps Its because I am using a Joystick (Gravis Pro). The best time I have done is a 1.28.123 (Monza) I would be interested to know your setups. I have already tried configuring the car like a skateboard. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Southend, Essex. UK -----------------------------------------------------------------

>Maybe you should write to who ever is running that competion for two classes? That would be nice, but it is very doubtful that it will occur. >note:- I know you said that using steering help was cheating (not using the > keyboard was >cheating), but since steering help cannot be turned off with the keyboard, my > argument still >stands. (in my opinion steerng help is GP2's best feature) Ah, but now you too can turn off steering help. There's a new utility out to allow this. >By the way - has it been PROVEN yet that keyboard is faster than steering > wheel? Not yet, I am only basing my opinions on the original WC/F1GP game. After d'loading Josh's lap and examining it, perhaps there IS hope for us wheel/pedal users. At least until I can equal and/or better his time, I'm rooting for Josh to win this competition! And I'm sure that while all the real F1 drivers might think the amount of time we all put in to practicing these sims is ridiculous, at least we have the drive to compete if not the actual talent/budget/cojones needed to be among the elite. I don't feel, however, that your argument regarding keyboard should be allowed to be faster than wheel/pedals just because your computer already has one is valid. This is just ludicrous. Of course people who can afford better equipment go faster in racing. I'd like to see anyone beat some of the wheel/pedal combo lap records in ICR2 using a keyboard. Not likely. If keyboards are really faster, then maybe FIA will allow steering help computers with keyboard controls so that Schumacher can go even faster by just pressing buttons. I'm sorry that you have to pay 200 pounds for a wheel, but I got a (not so great) Formula T2 for US$99, so that should be about, what, 60 pounds? I'm getting really frustrated at Monza because I can't seem to go faster than the low 84 second range. I'm convinced I'm losing most of my speed on Variante Goodyear. I've examined some setups from the net, but they all seem to be F/R 15/1 or something like that. I'm prepared to admit I just can't drive these simulated F1 cars, but I can usually get within 2 seconds of ICR2 internet records and this 2.5-3 second range is starting to get really annoying. I tried a setup with which the author claimed an 82.xxx at Monza and found that the car had so much snap on oversteer that I couldn't drive it at all. I'm about to give up. I'm trying a F/R 7/5 setup now to see if I can make up with grip what I lose in the straights. Of course, this is componded because once again the springs in my T2 are gone. Time to by that TWS or some such I suppose. Clark

The problem with most of the setups on the net, is that they are mostly setups for steering help. If you look at the replays, you can clearly see when steering help is being used. The cars drive like they are on rails. I really wish then when setups were posted, that thhey would be specified as steering help on/off. When using my T2 wheel, I find most of these setups almost uncontrolable. Anyone posted any setups that are meant for those of us that don't use steering help? I've got a setup of mine for Imola on Pieter's GP2 page that was intended for non steering help. I've a few more if anyone would like to see them posted.....

While driving in Monza I noticed that I can definitely drive faster down the straights in a qualifying session than in unlimited practice. Whereas I can barely do 331 km/h in practice, I easily get 332 km/h in qualifying. With exactly the same setup and fuel load mind you. ( This difference may sound insignificant but the regularity is appalling. ) I am not sure whether the grip is affected too but in qualifying I easily beat split-times that I had to struggle for in free-practice... ___________________________________________________________________________ Ivanhoe 'Tacho' Vasiljevich Student of Technical Physics at the - http://stud1.tuwien.ac.at/~e8925403 ___________________________________________________________________________

<snip> Yes, appalling isn't it ? I haven't had a problem in qualifying (if anything the car seems faster in qualifying although it is difficult to tell for sure) but the actual race is a different matter. I modified my Interlagos qualifying setup slightly, filled up with 25 laps of fuel and ran 25 laps in practice to check lap speeds and tyre wear. The first thing I noticed was that on my last lap I decided to really belt it round the lap to see how quick I could go - and promptly got my fastest lap of the session - presumably on very worn tyres. I checked my average lap times against those of the computer cars in a race and found that my setup was a nice 1 - 2 seconds faster. So far so good. I started a race and found that I was being well outpaced by the lead cars. I could only manage an average of 1:20 while in practice using the same setup I was getting 1:17's and 1:18's. My first thought was that GP2 only takes into account fuel load and tyre wear during the race itself. So I tried loading up with just 5 laps of fuel and tried another race, this time the best I could manage was a low 1:19 - still nowhere near the 1:17's I got in practice. What the hell is going on ? I remember from GP1 that the only time you ran with a representative fuel load was during the race. Surely GP2 hasn't been deliberately designed to be the same. After all, what's the point of practicing if the results you get are completely worthless in the race ? There's been a lot of complaints about GP2 since it was released. Yes the graphics are slow compared to ICR2, but the simulation and gameplay more than made up for it. Since I found this problem on Sunday however, (I've spent the last couple of weeks testing, running only a couple of low skill level races) I find that my enjoyment of the game has been ruined. Perhaps the worst thing about it is that GP2 was supposedly delayed until Geoff Crammond thought it was "perfect". This "feature" would seem to be too big to have been a bug overlooked by Geoff. Given than GP1 worked in the same way, I feel that this behaviour is deliberate rather than accidental. What chance then of a patch to sort it out ? Oh well, there's always the new Visiware game to look forward to... Apologies for wibbling on so long about this - but it really annoys me! *************************************************************************** * Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so... * Glenn Davies * ***************************************************************************

> I`ve noticed (as have many others apparently) that using the same > setup, fuel load and fresh tyres I am quicker in a qualifying session > than a practice. I`ve definitely noticed a straigtline speed > improvement at Monza in qualifying. Why not pretending you are just using a qualifying engine of some sort? Maybe a new version of the engine, good for a few laps but unreliable for the whole race or something. Bye, Luca

: >I get the impression that GP2 in race mode engages in the same : >silliness that F1GP did regarding randomly altering the car's : >characteristics to simulate "track conditions" : <snip> [snip] : What the hell is going on ? I remember from GP1 that the only time you : ran with a representative fuel load was during the race. Surely GP2 : hasn't been deliberately designed to be the same. After all, what's : the point of practicing if the results you get are completely : worthless in the race ? [snip] I think there maybe something to this, but I really think that the CPU load contributes to it more. The more work the CPU is doing to simulate the AI and the added graphics somehow plays into this. Try this out in VGA with next to no details with the same fps you use in SVGA (thus extremely lowering the CPU%). Is there a difference? I don't know and I haven't tried it this way, but I certainly do get a peformance boost with lower CPU%. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Is the variation in performance deliberate? GP1 made some smart arse random variations itself to allow for real life effects such as weather temperature etc. : >I get the impression that GP2 in race mode engages in the same : >silliness that F1GP did regarding randomly altering the car's : >characteristics to simulate "track conditions" Sure looks like it but is it varied too much? The only thing that appears consistent is (non race) practice times which is sensible so you can perform reliable setup tests. I would suggest that is why Micropose's Monza competition is run with laps under this mode. If you want to look at real variations in practice times look at these non season test times http://www2.monaco.mc/atlas/news/Ttimes3.htm

[s] I have noticed much the same thing. I think it is the mechanics at it behind our backs :). Overnight, or between sessions the mechanics will tweak the engine. Before qualifying they will coerce more power at the expense (perhaps) of reliability. Before a race they will opt for a less powerfull but more reliable engine. I imagine for the practice sessions the mechanics sorta compromise between the two. Personally I don't think you should let this ruin your enjoyment. The nature of the game means you can test time and time again in *actual* race conditions, somthing that is denied real F1 teams. -- Suck The Goat

>By the way - has it been PROVEN yet that keyboard is faster than steering wheel? I think it's common knowledge that steering help and opposite lock help allow to obtain better times more easily, and are MUCH more forgiving of a wrong setup/wrong driving style. Nicola Salmoria

test

> test Sorry about this. It will never happen again.

>>By the way - has it been PROVEN yet that keyboard is faster than steering wheel? >I think it's common knowledge that steering help and opposite lock >help allow to obtain better times more easily, and are MUCH more >forgiving of a wrong setup/wrong driving style. >Nicola Salmoria This is true, but it is more difficult to get an "out of this world" lap time with a keyboard than with a wheel/pedal. With a keyboard you can get good times easily. But with a wheel/pedal you can get great times with a lot of practice. Josh

>>By the way - has it been PROVEN yet that keyboard is faster than steering wheel? >I think it's common knowledge that steering help and opposite lock >help allow to obtain better times more easily, and are MUCH more >forgiving of a wrong setup/wrong driving style. >Nicola Salmoria I was looking throught the various gp2 pages that list hot laps for Monza, and on one page with separate "top tens" for keyboard drivers and others, the others have a greater number of 1:22.xxx times. Overall, that sample at least would indicate the T2 and the like will get faster speeds. Or maybe the better drivers just spend more on that sort of stuff. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bob Bruss ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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>> I`ve noticed (as have many others apparently) that using the same >> setup, fuel load and fresh tyres I am quicker in a qualifying session >> than a practice. I`ve definitely noticed a straigtline speed >> improvement at Monza in qualifying. >Why not pretending you are just using a qualifying engine of some >sort? >Maybe a new version of the engine, good for a few laps but unreliable >for the whole race or something. >Bye, >Luca

Because that would be unrealistic.

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|> |> |> >>By the way - has it been PROVEN yet that keyboard is faster than steering wheel? |> |> >I think it's common knowledge that steering help and opposite lock |> >help allow to obtain better times more easily, and are MUCH more |> >forgiving of a wrong setup/wrong driving style. |> |> >Nicola Salmoria |> |> This is true, but it is more difficult to get an "out of this world" lap time |> with a keyboard than with a wheel/pedal. With a keyboard you can get good |> times easily. But with a wheel/pedal you can get great times with a lot of |> practice.

Keyboard: easy to get good and consistent times - agreed. I used to run 100% flawless races in GP1 most of the times (without damage, spins etc.) with a keyboard. But that's of course with steering help on (impossible if off using keyboard). Also my feet can rest and when the car is on a straight, I can move my right hand off the keyboard to pick my nose. ;-) No, no, that's not true. I can press the "p" key to pause the game whenever I want to, without directing my attention too far off from steering the car. But keyboards are not authentic devices to play driving sims. Since the release of GP2, keyboards don't have the advantage in GP1 anymore. The primary reason is braking and throttle. It is too easy to spin the wheels when starting from stand still, and lock up the wheels under braking. This is particularly serious in braking. Since GP2 I have bought myself a T2 wheels and pedal combo to play the game. Yes, it does require some getting used to, and it does take a lot of time to make the setups right, but nothing is more rewarding than being able to play driving sims the way they are supposed to be. My T2-achieved times are still far from those obtained by using keyboard, but I am sure they will improve. I can still get better times in GP2 by using keyboard, even though it means smoking tires at every braking point. I even finished 3rd in a 70% race at semi-pro level using keyboard. (My first ever long race in GP2) Soon I will stop using the keyboard and concentrate on learning the T2 with GP2. -- My $0.02 (MSRP, plus shipping and handling, and applicable taxes. O.A.C., license, registration, PDI, freight, and insurance extra. Price subject to change without notice. Cash discounted, credit cards please add 3%)

Yes, I tried that too and got exactly the same results. Oh well, back to ICR2... *************************************************************************** * Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so... * Glenn Davies * ***************************************************************************

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>> I`ve noticed (as have many others apparently) that using the same >> setup, fuel load and fresh tyres I am quicker in a qualifying session >> than a practice. I`ve definitely noticed a straigtline speed >> improvement at Monza in qualifying. >Why not pretending you are just using a qualifying engine of some >sort? >Maybe a new version of the engine, good for a few laps but unreliable >for the whole race or something. >Bye, >Luca

Agreed, even if not a qualifying engine, the teams do push the motors much harder during qualifying than the actual race itself. In my memory, race laps are never nearly as fast as qualifying laps. This may not be the case this season but has certainly been true in season's past. Consider the track records. The times are always 2 or 3 seconds off. As for realism, many teams will fit parts to the car for the qualifying session that are not yet considered reliable enough for the race. i.e. McLaren went with a new Mercedes engine in qualifying at Hockenheim and switched back to the older version for the race because the new engine's reliability had not been tested to the point that McLaren felt comfortable. Anyway, Ivanhoe, I did notice the difference as well. Perhaps your team is subtly varying the tyre compound in violation of FIA rules:) It's only illegal if you get caught. eric (who still thinks Ivanhoe is the fastest F1GP racer ever)