NRL

Ed I was wandering what the first race will be in the nrl since we don't have Daytona the biggest race of the year?

>Ed >I was wandering what the first race will be in the nrl since we don't >have Daytona the biggest race of the year? We're not yet ready to announce the NRL schedule. All I can say for now is that it will be sometime in 1997. Oh ya... and it will be worth the wait!!! Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

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>>>Ed >>>I was wandering what the first race will be in the nrl since we don't >>>have Daytona the biggest race of the year? >>We're not yet ready to announce the NRL schedule. All I can say for >>now is that it will be sometime in 1997. >>Oh ya... and it will be worth the wait!!! >>Ed Martin >>Producer, Series Director >>NASCAR Racing League >>Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc. >I think a blind man can even read between Ed's lines. >Randy

Please don't read too much into it. We really haven't set the schedule yet. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Ed I was wondering what the future of the NRL is. After your beta testing, is this going to be put into alot of major cities for local dial-up, or is it going to be just in the present cities? Maybe you are developing this for network play. Just curious. Hoping it's coming to Toronto......Mike

Ed, I doubt that it will be worth the wait. I stopped using Hawaii a couple months ago because of constant server trouble and the fact that the skill levels I lost because of the server and a lack of a good modem string could not be restored. One of the tech support people basically told me that they would not even bother with trying to restore lost skill levels because others would use it to cheat. That's when I decided to quit. I am not going to waste my hard-earned money making up for Hawaii's lack of quality and trouble-shooting. I sincerely hope that you guys are really prepared for this NRL situation. If NASCAR is going to sanction this league, it had better be STABLE and RELIABLE. Otherwise, it will be an embarrassment to NASCAR and Papyrus. Kirn Cromur

Its a nice graphic effect to have body parts(car) scattered across the track after a wreck but its nearly impossible to tell benign fenders from terminal bodys. It really ticks me when I realize I've just dodged a pile of parts which wouldn't have hurt me to run head on into the body from which the parts came and be put out of the race with a damaged engine. I wish this feature could be turned off. After the obligatory crash crossing the finish line at Taladega, I have several times been automatically grabbed by the tow truck and towed back to the pits. Why? Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA

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>Ed, >I doubt that it will be worth the wait. I stopped using Hawaii a couple >months ago because of constant server trouble and the fact that the skill >levels I lost because of the server and a lack of a good modem string could >not be restored. One of the tech support people basically told me that >they would not even bother with trying to restore lost skill levels because >others would use it to cheat. That's when I decided to quit. I am not >going to waste my hard-earned money making up for Hawaii's lack of quality >and trouble-shooting. I sincerely hope that you guys are really prepared >for this NRL situation. If NASCAR is going to sanction this league, it had >better be STABLE and RELIABLE. Otherwise, it will be an embarrassment to >NASCAR and Papyrus. >Kirn Cromur

Kirn, I'm sorry you didn't have a good experience with the NRL prototype. However, that's why we're not billing for it, and that's why we're running the prototype publically -- to work out the bugs 7 make it stable & reliable. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

: : I doubt that it will be worth the wait. I stopped using Hawaii a couple : months ago because of constant server trouble and the fact that the skill : levels I lost because of the server and a lack of a good modem string could : not be restored. One of the tech support people basically told me that : they would not even bother with trying to restore lost skill levels because : others would use it to cheat. That's when I decided to quit. I am not : going to waste my hard-earned money making up for Hawaii's lack of quality : and trouble-shooting. I sincerely hope that you guys are really prepared : for this NRL situation. If NASCAR is going to sanction this league, it had : better be STABLE and RELIABLE. Otherwise, it will be an embarrassment to : NASCAR and Papyrus. Maybe you missed out on the information that Hawaii is purely BETA! The term beta usually means there will be problems, bugs, broken parts, things that don't work the way the programmers want it to. The whole point of providing Hawaii is so they can FIX these things before NRL comes out. One of the problems with a large open BETA is that people can get the impression that this is what the final product will be. Now the good part about your post is that you voiced your concerns and hopefully Papyrus will see your post here and take them into consideration. But, it might be better for you to e-mail your "beefs" to the proper Papy address. Since I don't participate in Hawaii, I don't know this address, but there is one. Someone out there want to post it for us? -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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> I've been having fun with my NASCAR simulator for over a year, though I'm by > no means any good. I've NEVER been grabbed by a tow truck. Did I set > something up wrong in the game? In fact, one time I had such a hard time even > finishing Watkins Glen. I would wreck and the game would never let the race > finish and I continued to sit on the track. > So how does one get the tow truck to come out when you've totally wrecked out? > post the answer here.

The post you replied to is refering to Hawaii on-line racing. There is no tow truck in the commercial game. Also if you wreck while in a race and damage your engine, simply press <ALT><A> and the reace will continue without you. Jon Villanueva

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>Subject: Body parts everywhere >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 00:19:00 -0500 >Its a nice graphic effect to have body parts(car) scattered across the track >after a >wreck but its nearly impossible to tell benign fenders from terminal bodys. It >really >ticks me when I realize I've just dodged a pile of parts which wouldn't have >hurt me to >run head on into the body from which the parts came and be put out of the race >with a >damaged engine. I wish this feature could be turned off. >After the obligatory crash crossing the finish line at Taladega, I have several >times >been automatically grabbed by the tow truck and towed back to the pits. Why?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I've been having fun with my NASCAR simulator for over a year, though I'm by no means any good. I've NEVER been grabbed by a tow truck. Did I set something up wrong in the game? In fact, one time I had such a hard time even finishing Watkins Glen. I would wreck and the game would never let the race finish and I continued to sit on the track. So how does one get the tow truck to come out when you've totally wrecked out? post the answer here.

1st post <snipped>: Is something happening in the fall that I'm not aware of? The June Hawaii/NRL news letter states that NRL will not be online until a low latency network becomes commercially available, which should be sometime this year. Papyrus will then have to adapt the Sim to work over the TCP/IP network. Ed said that we probably won't see the NRL until sometime in 1997 (Don't confuse NRL with Nascar2). I may be wrong but I'd bet Many of these problems/"bugs" you speak of are associated with the Telco long distance connections. Why resolve extremely difficult problems that won't even exist after changing to a TCP/IP network with local access. It's probably a matter of priorities. I've been on Hawaii since the end of May and was already getting VERY frustrated with the modem "warping" and idiot drivers. In the last couple of weeks I stopped worrying about my skill level. Now I just race and have fun. When problems occur I'll report them to practice, practice, practice (only got till 1997). I'm trying to join a league to combat the idiot driver problem. P.S. I'm not so sure about your idea of a "sure sign". Mike Radler

I doubt that there are many people here who DON'T know what beta is and why beta testing is conducted. My point is that the people involved with Hawaii have not made a strong effort to fix the bugs thoroughly and quickly. The fall is fast approaching and yet Hawaii is still very unstable and a major question mark. I have had technical support people with Hawaii tell me that they will not attempt to fix certain problems because it would be too difficult. That is a sure sign of a poor operation. If you can't fix the bugs and actually make an effort to address problems, then why even beta test? Why even try if you aren't going to give it your BEST attempt? Kirn Cromur

: I've been having fun with my NASCAR simulator for over a year, though I'm by : no means any good. I've NEVER been grabbed by a tow truck. Did I set : something up wrong in the game? In fact, one time I had such a hard time even : finishing Watkins Glen. I would wreck and the game would never let the race : finish and I continued to sit on the track. No, you didn't set up anything wrong. The tow truck was implemented in the dial-up multi-player version. If you download the software (at www.sierra.com), I think the tow truck is in it. You can practice on all of the tracks, but you can't race against the AI with it. However, you can use it play via modem with some one else. Looks like the rest of us will have to wait til NASCAR2 for a tow... -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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>I doubt that there are many people here who DON'T know what beta is and why >beta testing is conducted. My point is that the people involved with >Hawaii have not made a strong effort to fix the bugs thoroughly and >quickly. The fall is fast approaching and yet Hawaii is still very >unstable and a major question mark. I have had technical support people >with Hawaii tell me that they will not attempt to fix certain problems >because it would be too difficult. That is a sure sign of a poor >operation. If you can't fix the bugs and actually make an effort to >address problems, then why even beta test? Why even try if you aren't >going to give it your BEST attempt? >Kirn Cromur

Kirn, I think you are confused about what Hawaii is and what is isn't. Hawaii is a PROTOTYPE for NRL. It is NOT NRL, nor will it be be NRL. It is based on NCR 1.x, it uses proprietary communications protocols, it is primarily DOS-based on the server side. NRL is totally different. We've learned a lot from Hawaii & that will help us to build NRL. However, most of the actual code for Hawaii is never going to be part of NRL. NRL is based on NCR 2, uses standard internet protocols, and will be mainly UNIX based on the server side. A beta test indicates that it is that actual product going through final testing. That is not the case with Hawaii. NRL is a new product for which Hawaii is the prototype. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

>Its a nice graphic effect to have body parts(car) scattered across the >track after a wreck but its nearly impossible to tell benign fenders from >terminal bodys. It really ticks me when I realize I've just dodged a pile >of parts which wouldn't have hurt me to run head on into the body from >which the parts came and be put out of the race with a damaged engine. I >wish this feature could be turned off. Actually, I don't find this to be a problem, if you've ever watched a wreck from the in-car camera in a real race, there is usually so much smoke, you can't see the "terminal bodys" (sic) anyway. And why should fenders be benign? Seems to me that running over a fender ought to give you a chance of having a tire go down. Dave "davids" Sparks Late Nite League http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

Ed, Then, the situation is even worse than what I thought. I have serious doubts about the NRL now that you've stated that it will be something completely new, but based somewhat on what you've learned from Hawaii. It seems pretty frightening to imagine what might happen without the extent of testing which was done with Hawaii. I wish you all the luck and I hope for everyone's enjoyment that the NRL will be great, as soon as it starts, but I don't think I'll be participating, because I'd rather avoid a repeat of my Hawaii frustrations. Kirn Cromur

Will there be an open beta for NRL? -- Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA

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>Ed, >Then, the situation is even worse than what I thought. I have serious >doubts about the NRL now that you've stated that it will be something >completely new, but based somewhat on what you've learned from Hawaii. It >seems pretty frightening to imagine what might happen without the extent of >testing which was done with Hawaii. I wish you all the luck and I hope for >everyone's enjoyment that the NRL will be great, as soon as it starts, but >I don't think I'll be participating, because I'd rather avoid a repeat of >my Hawaii frustrations. >Kirn Cromur

Well, Kirn, I guess you're just not going to be happy no matter what we do or what I say. It's obviously pointless to get into a discussion with you about how an online sport & somethng as big as NRL is developed. Have fun with whatever you do choose to do. From the sounds of things, the only thing you'll be happy with is something you write yourself. Good luck! Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

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>I doubt that there are many people here who DON'T know what beta is and why >beta testing is conducted. My point is that the people involved with >Hawaii have not made a strong effort to fix the bugs thoroughly and >quickly. The fall is fast approaching and yet Hawaii is still very >unstable and a major question mark. I have had technical support people >with Hawaii tell me that they will not attempt to fix certain problems >because it would be too difficult. That is a sure sign of a poor >operation. If you can't fix the bugs and actually make an effort to >address problems, then why even beta test? Why even try if you aren't >going to give it your BEST attempt? >Kirn Cromur

Hawaii is a prototype of the NRL, it's not really a beta. NRL will be based on NASCAR 2, which is supposed to ship in the fall, however, NRL is schedule for some time in '97. I suspect that the reason Papyrus is not focused on fixing bugs in Hawaii is because the code base for NASCAR 2 and NRL is different, and they don't want to have to maintain two sets of code. It seems that what they are doing is finding out how well the idea will scale up when NRL goes live. They are also building a base of experienced users that will help to stabilize the system once it goes online with 100 times the number of drivers that are active now. In spite of that, my experience with Papyrus' support has been very good. They have addressed a number of issues that I've brought up, and they are working on some of the more annoying problems that currently plague the system (HOG, flag bugs, etc). I suspect that we will see fewer MULTI updates as the NASCAR 2 ship date gets nearer. Obviously they need to pay the bills, and NASCAR is their flagship product, so for understandable reasons, it will get first priority. Dave "davids" Sparks Late Nite League http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

Ed, I'll be happy when I don't have an *** with Hawaii tech support telling me that it's too much of a bother to try and fix a problem. I am easily satisfied. Let me race on a multiplayer server without being disconnected every other race and getting screwed by losing skill points. I have no line noise and I've never had problems connecting with fax machines, ISPs or any other servers. So, why is Hawaii nothing but a nightmare for me? All I ask is for a reliable connection and an attempt to solve problems. Period. I don't think that's too much to ask. Kirn Cromur

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>Ed, >I'll be happy when I don't have an *** with Hawaii tech support telling >me that it's too much of a bother to try and fix a problem. I am easily >satisfied. Let me race on a multiplayer server without being disconnected >every other race and getting screwed by losing skill points. I have no >line noise and I've never had problems connecting with fax machines, ISPs >or any other servers. So, why is Hawaii nothing but a nightmare for me? >All I ask is for a reliable connection and an attempt to solve problems. >Period. I don't think that's too much to ask. >Kirn Cromur

Hey, stop complaining. I can't even try out Hawaii since my computer is just below the minimum requirements (486DX66) and times out trying to go to the race. Hawaii is FREE. Since you are not paying for it, how can you balk about service problems? Are the Papyrus people supposed to work their tails to provide a perfect, error-free, and cost-free form of entertainment for us? I don't think so. If you don't like Hawaii's little glitches, then stop using it and wait for the NRL to launch. THEN if you have gripes they would at least be valid. Kyle Langston

Kirn, As tech lead for Hawaii, I can assure you that the entire project has been centered around testing. The differences between the level of quality assurance required for a consumer release and that required to set up a stable online service are considerable, and I've personally logged literally thousands of hours focused on developing a service which is able to operate 24 hours a day with the best reliability we can deliver. We're working on an imperfect delivery medium with less than ideal latency; the product you have is a prototype, much of which will be scrapped for the NRL, and we're not bringing in a dime of revenue for the prototype, so we cannot afford to upgrade everything we would like to upgrade or fix every problem we could fix given infinite resources. I apologize for this, but we unfortunately have to focus our resources ahead of the curve, on the final product, rather than on updates to the prototype. Five years from now, what we've achieved in the Hawaii prototype will probably look a bit like silent movies compared with talkies, but at the moment, I think we're still pretty close to the bleeding edge of what we can deliver over a modem. If you really don't think the Hawaii prototype is good enough to be worth using, why don't you take a break and look at it again when we reach the NRL release. A lot of people seem to think that Hawaii is the best thing since internal combustion; if its not up to your expectations, we'd love to get your feedback, but if you're not having fun with it, don't waste your long distance calls on it! Charlie Heath Papyrus Design Group

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> Ed, > I'll be happy when I don't have an a..hole with Hawaii tech support > telling me that it's too much of a bother to try and fix a problem. I > am easily satisfied. Let me race on a multiplayer server without > being disconnected every other race and getting screwed by losing > skill points. I have no line noise and I've never had problems > connecting with fax machines, ISPs or any other servers. So, why is > Hawaii nothing but a nightmare for me? All I ask is for a reliable > connection and an attempt to solve problems.Period. I don't think > that's too much to ask.

Your posts remind me of an old saying "Better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt". Read the June96 NRL newsletter! It does a GREAT job explaining the Long distance line problems. The differences between ISP/other servers and Hawaii connections are explained so even us lay people can understand (Ya, you too). I think Papyrus is building something great here (working on the engine now) and you keep walking around kicking the tires. Look at the forest, dude. Mike Radler

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>Ed, >I'll be happy when I don't have an *** with Hawaii tech support telling >me that it's too much of a bother to try and fix a problem. I am easily >satisfied. Let me race on a multiplayer server without being disconnected >every other race and getting screwed by losing skill points. I have no >line noise and I've never had problems connecting with fax machines, ISPs >or any other servers. So, why is Hawaii nothing but a nightmare for me? >All I ask is for a reliable connection and an attempt to solve problems. >Period. I don't think that's too much to ask. >Kirn Cromur

Kirn, First, the people who work tech support are not a--holes. I take offense to that. I'm about 1 inch from adding you to my kill file as it is, so let's not push it, OK? Now, as for your ability to connect to other services but not Hawaii, I suggest you either A) search through r.a.s.; or (even better) B) read the NRL_0696.TXT file that was downloaded to you back in June. I have covered this question MANY times. The short version of the reason: Hawaii forces off error correction to improve latency. No other service (or fax machine) that we know of does that. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Ed, just thought of a question this morning that I wanted to ask, can't remember seeing it here before, so forgive me if I'm repeating someone elses ignorance. That question is: What is going to happy to Hawaii when NR2 is released in Nov? I know that Hawaii is the prototype for the NRL (yeehaa), and that both will be used by NR2, but what about the interim time? Will there be separate nodes for NR clients and NR2 clients? I kinda doubt it myself seeing how it's a free (well, relatively-thanks Sprint) product, but will we tune in one day having not gotten NR2 yet and be turned away at the front door of Hawaii? Just something I thought of that made me curious. I know, I should try to get out more and let the computer cool down for a bit. Matt Myers --------------------------------------------- Expressing individualism is just plain wrong. Crow T. Robot

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>Hey, stop complaining. I can't even try out Hawaii since my computer >is just below the minimum requirements (486DX66) and times out trying >to go to the race. Hawaii is FREE. Since you are not paying for it, >how can you balk about service problems? Are the Papyrus people >supposed to work their tails to provide a perfect, error-free, and >cost-free form of entertainment for us? I don't think so. If you >don't like Hawaii's little glitches, then stop using it and wait for >the NRL to launch. THEN if you have gripes they would at least be >valid.

Yes, but you are the sort of person who doesn`t complain when he`s given a "FREE!!!! AT NO CHARGE" kick in the head as long as it`s a Papyrus boot doing the kicking.

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>>Hey, stop complaining. I can't even try out Hawaii since my computer >>is just below the minimum requirements (486DX66) and times out trying >>to go to the race. Hawaii is FREE. Since you are not paying for it, >>how can you balk about service problems? Are the Papyrus people >>supposed to work their tails to provide a perfect, error-free, and >>cost-free form of entertainment for us? I don't think so. If you >>don't like Hawaii's little glitches, then stop using it and wait for >>the NRL to launch. THEN if you have gripes they would at least be >>valid. >Yes, but you are the sort of person who doesn`t complain when he`s >given a "FREE!!!! AT NO CHARGE" kick in the head as long as it`s a >Papyrus boot doing the kicking.

You obviously didn't read any of the post. Free means NO MONEY COMES OUT OF YOUR POCKET. Where is it written that everyone has a right to free things/services that rival the commercial equivalents? Grow up! Kyle Langston

It is amazing what people will blame their problems on, I have been running Hawaii for four month and never have had a problem, I also learned to stay out of pick up races and joined a league, as for bugs, let complain after sierra starts charging us for the service, right now I am sure they will give you your money back for the hawaii software, hell i will even chip in. buster -- Mark Mc Kinney "buster"