More NASCAR 2.0 News (not all good)

I asked Adam Levesque (Papyrus) a few questions about NASCAR 2. Here's the response: Q. Will the limitation to the track engine be fixed, ie. no more curved pits at Tally and C***te? A. Unfortuneately, the problem with the pit road will still be there. Believe me, I absolutely hate this. We just didn't have the time to completely change the track tools and build all new tracks. It would just have taken too long. NASCAR 3 though...:). Q. There's a rumor that the NASCAR sanctioned races on "Hawaii 2" will be broadcast over the internet for people to view. Is this true, and if so, how will it be done? A. I am not sure about the internet viewing thing. Currently, you can watch a multiplayer race from the server (and maybe from client machines as well?) in real time. We have two league races on Thursday nights - a Busch and Pro league. While one league is driving, the other gather around our 60' TV set to watch in replay mode (real time). Q. Also, please do an interim release of MULTI that will allow us to race against the AI. It's really inconvenient not being able to test a setup in traffic without going online. I'd be happy even if I could only practice against the AI, without racing. I know that the guts of the AI engine is in there, because it works fine if you modem race. A. As far as releasing the Multi with AI, I think you are out of luck on that one. Too much stuff has changed that we don't have enough time to test for that type of release. Sorry. Oh, well. I guess you can't have everything. Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

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> I asked Adam Levesque (Papyrus) a few questions about NASCAR 2. Here's the > response: > Q. Will the limitation to the track engine be fixed, ie. no more curved > pits at Tally and C***te? > A. Unfortuneately, the problem with the pit road will still be there. > Believe me, I absolutely hate this. We just didn't have the time to > completely change the track tools and build all new tracks. It would just > have taken too long. NASCAR 3 though...:).

What the *** is wrong with Papyrus? Can't they for once release a TRUE sequel as opposed to upgrades? This half hearted stuff is really annoying. But Papyrus do release a sim every year, I give them that. And every sim they release(not Indy 500 as far as I know) needs extensive patching, I give them that too! And now they, again, report that there isn't time to do some really important changes. What kind of time schedule do they have? Twelve months? Apparently, for Papyrus to make a patch for ICR2 takes almost as long a time as making a sequel to NASCAR! It doesn't bode well for NASCAR 2. But since NASCAR 2 is based on ICR2 it may be that NASCAR 2 will not prove to be such a terrific bug feast as ICR2. Let's hope! I wonder why Papyrus don't start afresh making a sim from the bottom up, rethinking every aspect of what they are going to simulate? Use three years for heaven's sake, no dilettantism, no top-down approach. That would be a welcomed change to the usual "hacked" sequels of late. -- --- Terje Wold Johansen --- http://www.ifi.uio.no/~terjjo/ --- "I am your inferior superior." O.W.

writes: >> I asked Adam Levesque (Papyrus) a few questions about NASCAR 2. Here's the >> response: >> Q. Will the limitation to the track engine be fixed, ie. no more curved >> pits at Tally and C***te? >> A. Unfortuneately, the problem with the pit road will still be there. >> Believe me, I absolutely hate this. We just didn't have the time to >> completely change the track tools and build all new tracks. It would just

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>> have taken too long. NASCAR 3 though...:). >What the *** is wrong with Papyrus? >Can't they for once release a TRUE sequel as opposed to upgrades? >This half hearted stuff is really annoying. >But Papyrus do release a sim every year, I give them that. >And every sim they release(not Indy 500 as far as I know) needs >extensive patching, I give them that too! >And now they, again, report that there isn't time to do some >really important changes. What kind of time schedule do they >have? Twelve months? Apparently, for Papyrus to make a patch >for ICR2 takes almost as long a time as making a sequel to NASCAR! >It doesn't bode well for NASCAR 2. But since NASCAR 2 is based >on ICR2 it may be that NASCAR 2 will not prove to be such a >terrific bug feast as ICR2. Let's hope! >I wonder why Papyrus don't start afresh making a sim from the bottom >up, rethinking every aspect of what they are going to simulate? >Use three years for heaven's sake, no dilettantism, no top-down >approach. That would be a welcomed change to the usual "hacked" >sequels of late. >-- >--- Terje Wold Johansen >--- http://www.ifi.uio.no/~terjjo/ >--- "I am your inferior superior." O.W.

If you think you can do better, start writing. You obviously don't know squat about programming, do you? It is very difficult to do this. If you had read previous posts, you'd know this. But no, everybody has to *** about something. Don't buy the next game, and you wont be unhappy will you?? I suppose you think Papyrus OWES this to you right? Hack. Mike

The way I see it... when you pay for something, the seller does "OWE" you something. When they start sending me something for free, I'll start expecting a lot less. Until then, I expect their products to be as good as the check I use to buy it. Does 7 months seem like a reasonable amout of time to come up with a patch? I wonder how Papyrus would feel if it took 7 months for my check to clear? Mike

writes I think you've misunderstood what he's saying. What do you think would ne the result if Papyrus were to NOT release a game this christmas, and wait until next Christmas. NASCAR 2 would be a HELL of a lot better than it will be when released this year. It's not to say Papyrus can't do it, they most certainly can. I'd just like to see a whole new "non-limiting" game engine for them so they can design with more freedom from system and time restrictions. _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ Sim Racing News \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ http://www.dcn.ed.ac.uk/pulse/index.htm \::/ \._______\

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> >What the *** is wrong with Papyrus? >Can't they for once release a TRUE sequel as opposed to upgrades? > >This half hearted stuff is really annoying. > >But Papyrus do release a sim every year, I give them that. >And every sim they release(not Indy 500 as far as I know) needs >extensive patching, I give them that too! >And now they, again, report that there isn't time to do some >really important changes. What kind of time schedule do they >have? Twelve months? Apparently, for Papyrus to make a patch >for ICR2 takes almost as long a time as making a sequel to NASCAR! >It doesn't bode well for NASCAR 2. But since NASCAR 2 is based >on ICR2 it may be that NASCAR 2 will not prove to be such a >terrific bug feast as ICR2. Let's hope! > >I wonder why Papyrus don't start afresh making a sim from the bottom >up, rethinking every aspect of what they are going to simulate? >Use three years for heaven's sake, no dilettantism, no top-down >approach. That would be a welcomed change to the usual "hacked" >sequels of late.

Biker mode on------ Man, you're a complete and total ***ing ***. Have you ever written anything more than a goddamned batch file in your miserable and pointless life? I've got over half a million lines of code on my hard drive, and regardless of how long I work at it, there's always gonna be something wrong somewhere in any given program. Get ***ing used to it and get a clue you dipshit. Nobody's ***ing perfect! You're nothing more than a goddamned whiner with nothing more to do with your poor excuse for a life than to give other people grief. You're pathetic and should be cast adrift in space where nobody can hear you spew this bullshit. Simply ***in Amazing!! ------Biker mode off I feel better now. /===================================================\

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| John Simmons (Redneck Techno-Biker) | | http://www.paddedwall.org/john | |===================================================| | IGN #12 Zerex American Eagle Motorsports Ford | | http://www2.connectnet.com/users/jms/aemmain.html | Hawaii NickName - AEMwest | |===================================================| | 93 FLSTC - 54,000 miles and counting | | Harley Scum Biker (tm) #14 |

\===================================================/

Thank you for saying that. you saved me the trouble. Being a person who also has to face others who say; "I don't give a damn whether it's possible or not, you just DO IT dammit", I have a great deal of compassion for Papyrus, who continues to improve and refine their product, but yet have face these morons who stand there and say; "I'm not satisfied...Give me more or you suck". I will tell you that I'd love to see straight pit roads in N2, but I'm not going to lambast Papyrus for not being able to pull it off yet. You see, _I_ still remember those old one-legged games like Vette and Test Drive, and I _STILL_ remember daydreaming about something like Nascar. I owe a debt of gratitude to papyrus for reading my mind and giving me a product that has given me so much enjoyment for so long, in spite of the few shortcomings. To those who might think my loyalty is unfashionable and subject to ridicule, I say, go make your own simulator if your so damned smart, or simply; Drop Dead. -- ===================================================================== C H A R L O T T E M O T O R S P E E D W A Y ------------------------------------------------------------------- // // Mark McCuen // Caribou/IverSport #35 Hooters Monte Carlo ___/#D\__/ - __ Papyrus Closed Beta Team (8/95) [_()_35_()] _ --- ID: markmc // HCS/ProHCS // http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/m/v/mvwooten/system.txt -----------------------------------------------------------------

>The way I see it... when you pay for something, the seller does "OWE" >you something. When they start sending me something for free, I'll >start expecting a lot less. Until then, I expect their products to be >as good as the check I use to buy it. Unless I'm mistaken, this thread was referring to NASCAR, the last version of which was released was a year ago. There are a few niggling little bugs, but nothing significant enough IMHO to warrant giving everyone a free ride on NASCAR 2.0. I can't argue about the timing on the ICR2 patch, it's been a long time coming. But they aren't charging for it, and if I'm not mistaken, Papyrus has said that people who bought the DOS game can download the Win'95 version for free, or pay a nominal fee to have it shipped. This for a $50 game, how many $500 office suites can you say the same for? It's basic economics, the money you put up for the game pays for development of the next generation. Car simulations like NASCAR, ICR2 or F1GP are considerably more complex than your typical "Doom clone" which sells an order of magnitude more units per year. I hope that Papyrus finds a way to make money off the multi-player system, because I believe that is the future of computer ***, and I think it will drive new technology more than anything else. You can always set your AI opponents to some level where you can easily compete with them, but it doesn't work that way with human opponents. <g> People will be looking for every edge they can find, feedback steering systems, higher-res graphics, better frame rates, VR goggles, etc. Should be lots of interesting new gadgets over the next few years. Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

THIS is the sort of thing that gives NASCAR drivers a bad name..... Look at the message for what it is - it's not ragging on Papyrus, it is saying, and with some justification, that if they skipped the "gamne every Christmas" approach, NASCAR 2 would be much better than it's going to be. It'll be good, but Papyrus could do so much more and better if they allowed themselves the time. But then, what would that leave for NASCAR 3 ? Cheers! John

Very Good Point Mike.

All patches(minus Iomega and there 95 Zip Tools) are free. This includes those $500 office suites. If you recall, ICR2 was intially advertised as having a win95 and Dos version. Personally, I could careless about the win95 version, I just want to be able to race with yellows and traction.

... > >> have taken too long. NASCAR 3 though...:). > >What the *** is wrong with Papyrus? > >Can't they for once release a TRUE sequel as opposed to upgrades? > >This half hearted stuff is really annoying. ...

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> >I wonder why Papyrus don't start afresh making a sim from the bottom > >up, rethinking every aspect of what they are going to simulate? > >Use three years for heaven's sake, no dilettantism, no top-down > >approach. That would be a welcomed change to the usual "hacked" > >sequels of late. > If you think you can do better, start writing. You obviously don't know > squat about programming, do you? It is very difficult to do this. If > you had read previous posts, you'd know this.

Ehh, I am a C/C++ programmer and a student of computer science at the University of Oslo. I started with Intel assembly language in 1993. My first rendezvous with programming occured in 1985. I have been into games since I bought my first computer in 1983. I have several friends that work in the *** business either as producers or as programmers. In fact I may start working in the same business this fall. I am currently working on a 3D engine that will be my application for the job. But even though I am a programmer, more or less an autodidact, I would prefer to design games, especially racing sims or space sims. Programming is slavery and you have to do as the lead-programmer tells you to, that is if you aren't the lead-programmer, but if you're a lead programmer you will have to listen to the designer or Head of Project. As a designer you have a LOT more to say for obvious reasons. A designer is just like an architect, programmers are the carpenters and the construction workers. But programmers get much better paid, but hell, they have to work loooong hours. You bet. If there's a ***in' discrepancy I *** like hell or if I have the chance, I will try my best to rectify the situation. But as a consumer you cannot rectify, only voice your opinion, and exaggerate a little in order to hang a grim reminder on the door of the recipients' so to speak. Eg. I have sent at least 30,000 bytes of bug reports to Papyrus since the release of ICR2. That's the least I can do. Papyrus don't owe me something except an extensive patch to ICR2. That one is due RSN. But it has taken an awfully long time to get the patch released. That is symptomatic of Papyrus and is really an evidence that ICR2 shouldn't have been released in the US Nov 22nd, 1995. According to several beta testers Papyrus didn't give a damn about the bugs that were in ICR2. They had to release it before Xmas '95. There may have been strong economic reasons for that. In January they joined Sierra Online... But nevertheless, the deed is done and there isn't any excuse. The only thing left is a tarnished reputation. This practice is not uncommon in the *** industry and if we're not voicing our opionions in the matter the publishers will run us over. As a consumer you have certain rights. One way of another the software industry has somehow gotten redemptions from the current rules and they are using it to their advantage no end. I guess the main reason is that the industry is relatively new and the consumers, at least those who buy games, are fairly young and unexperienced. I never returned my copy ICR2 but I really should have done that. Everyone should have done that to express their disgrace. I couldn't find any sticker on the box saying that several tracks were unraceable(Surfers, Mid-Ohio, Detroit(crappy AI), and Phoenix) and that there were at least five really serious bugs(yellow flag bugs, weight-shift bug, AI taking really strange lines(going through walls at Vancouver), teleportbug, and miscellanous replay bugs and resetting bugs(the game changes the dmg from realistic to none just like that) and finally all the tracks have erroneous lengths(less serious)). And not to mention the annoying flicker of the tac-o-meter that some people experience(I did too, before I upgraded my machine(UniVBE(and hardware) related error...?)). As long as we buy the products(we are starved, aren't we?) this abysmal trend is going to continue. I really hope Papyrus do their utmost to ensure that NASCAR 2 won't need a huge patch like ICR2. That it will need a patch is unquestionable, too complex a program and too little time, but do your best to not repeat what you did with ICR2. NCR2 has such following that you can afford waiting past Xmas '96 if is necessary. But, I know, the pressure is very much on. Rock on! -- --- Terje Wold Johansen --- http://www.ifi.uio.no/~terjjo/ --- "I am your inferior superior." O.W.

writes Point taken, but they aren't charging for it because it's fixing all the things that sholdn't have been wrong in the original release! ICR2 was brought out in time for Xmas '95 instead of fixing the bugs which would have caused them to miss the "buying frenzy" season. On the bright side, it means those bugs have been tracked down and hopefully won't be in NASCAR 2 when it arrives this Xmas. Cheers! John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ Sim Racing News \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ http://www.dcn.ed.ac.uk/pulse/index.htm \::/ \._______\

TJ> Eg. I have sent at least 30,000 bytes of bug reports to Papyrus TJ> since the release of ICR2. That's the least I can do. TJ> > I suppose you think Papyrus OWES this to you right? TJ> Papyrus don't owe me something except an extensive patch to ICR2. TJ> That one is due RSN. But it has taken an awfully long time to get TJ> the patch released. That is symptomatic of Papyrus and is really an TJ> evidence that ICR2 shouldn't have been released in the US Nov 22nd, TJ> 1995. TJ> I never returned my copy ICR2 but I really should have done that. TJ> Everyone should have done that to express their disgrace..... (fascinating list of bugs follows - things I wondered about but haven't played enought to be sure it wasn't "just me". But the grip level is something I've been unsure about from the start!) Some very solid, sensible, well argued points there Terje. And hardly raisedthe temperature at all - with all the provacation VERY self restrained! B-) Cheers! --- * RM 1.3 U0414 * I'v got the results of my IQ test - it was negative.

Hi Terje, Wow...I think you might be a little upset. Let me just say that I can't comment about ICR2 except to say that those guys have been busting their butts for well over a year now to get things right. Wait until the Win95 version comes out with the patch. Anyway, I was the producer for NASCAR. And yes, we did have problems after it was released. I can assure you, this is not something we wanted to do. As for NASCAR 2, I am sorry I can't express to you exactly how difficult and big a change it would be to completely rewrite the track tools in time for NASCAR 2. Whenever you do a product, you can't do everything you want. As a matter of fact, it can be a very painful process. There are three things which constrain the developement of a product - Time, Cost, and Resources. We do not have unlimited amounts of any of these. So, we have to make some choices about what we can and can't do in the time we have. I say this to people and maybe they don't understand it...but...Papyrus is here to make money. If we didn't do that, we wouldn't be here. It just so happens that we love what we do. Hopefully, that makes our products better. Butortant. The more money we make, the more time/effort etc we can put into our next products. Now, having said all that, there is no excuse for releasing buggy software. We don't sit around and say..."ha..let's release this really buggy stuff so people can be really mad at us". We really do extensive testing on our products. Have we released some things too early...yes...All I can say is that we really do our best to not have this happen. And this will definately be the case with NASCAR 2. By the way, we are working on our next generation racing game now. I can't say what it is or when it is due, but we are building it from the ground up. Well...sorry for such a long post. Adam Papyrus

If I can pipe in with my more moderate 2 cents worth...I understand both sides of this one. I write commercial software for a living, too, and often under a great deal of pressure. I know first-hand just how hard it is to ship quality software. On the other hand, as customers we have certain expectations, and if those expectations aren't met by one company we generally go to another. The biggest problem with the situation with Papyrus is that there is simply no competition for them. While Microprose works on F1GP2, it is NOT an IndyCar or NASCAR simulator. Effectively there is ONE quality product in each category, and the three products complement each other rather than directly compete with each other. No matter how good F1GP2 may be, I'm still going to want to race Laguna Seca and for that I'm going to go to IndyCar II, not F1GP2. And neither ICR2 or F1GP2 is going to give me a NASCAR fix. Because of the fact that Papyrus has no competition in this regard, we don't see competitors working hard to one-up each other in this genre, and I think this is why we see more incremental and less revolutionary upgrades. And it will continue to be so until Papyrus gets enough competition that they MUST pioneer new technologies to maintain its customer base. For the time being, they can focus their efforts on incremental upgrades and promoting their multi-player service which does more to add value and enhance existing products than leapfrog anyone else's product. Unfortunately, the customer backlash is thus stronger because...as they say "where else ya gonna go"? No matter how much someone whines, you know and I know that 99% are going to be the first in line to buy whatever the next version is that Papyrus sells. There's simply no other alternative short of not racing at all! So instead they BUY the products, Papyrus gets their money and gets treated to these major *** sessions by people. But the bottom line is, Papyrus doesn't technically HAVE to listen to these gripes unless its affecting the bottom line...and since they have no competition, the impact of this kind of whining is rather small, except insofar as the people at Papyrus are hardworking programmers who love what they do and truly want happy customers. However, the programmers aren't running the show. Sierra is...a huge *** company which has to manage multiple divisions and try to turn a profit on each one. Finally, some of the whiners here ought to be grateful that Papyrus is putting out the ICR2 Win95 patch free of charge to its ICR2 DOS customers (unless there has been some change that I haven't heard). These programmers have been busting their butts for months moving ICR to a completely new platform, then they give it away to their DOS customers and don't make any new revenue off of it, except for those customers who take the plunge once they see a Win95 version is out. It would not be at all strange if Papyrus were to charge some modest upgrade fee for this (although at this point, since they promised the update to their DOS users for only shipping & handling charges, they're a little stuck by their own commitment), but instead you see Papyrus, owning a virtual monopoly on the NASCAR/IndyCar sim market, doing right by its customers. No matter how well meaning Papyrus' programmers are, there are going to be bugs in these games. period. Deal with it. If you can't deal with finding bugs in software, you should find another hobby, because as long as human beings are writing out millions of lines of code, things are going to sneak by. Bottom line...Papyrus is doing more than it has to to make us happy, considering its ownership position in this market, and we should be grateful for that...and if you want to see Papyrus build entirely new, revolutionary sims, why don't you start your own company, build a better sim, and force their hand by competition, not complaining about it. Competition drives innovation more than anything else. That's just a fact. All of the above is just my personal opinion (donning asbestos). Randy

> By the way, we are working on our next generation racing game now. I >can't say what it is or when it is due, but we are building it from the >ground up. Hi Adam, Are you allowing for "next generation" hardware in this new game? I'm thinking in particular of force-feedback steering and VR headsets. Joe

>Hi Adam, >Are you allowing for "next generation" hardware in this new game? I'm >thinking in particular of force-feedback steering and VR headsets. >Joe Joe - we've already done prototypes of force feedback steering, a year ago with the Exos joystick prototype ... I believe Microsoft recently bought Exos and plans to release a force feedback joystick of some sort based on their technology. If there is anything out there which is commercially viable in force feedback joysticks, I suspect Papyrus will be among the first wave of companies supporting them ... last time I checked, though, there wasn't really anything out there on the market yet. If you're aware of anything out there in force feedback joysticks which is actually on the market, please keep us posted ... Charlie Heath Papyrus Design Group

Oh NOOO!! Not another teaser! I hate these! What I mean by a teaser is that you guys give a clue of something that you're coming out with but can't say anything about it or what is is, but make it sound like it's gonna be great. Hey, the more info the better. =========================================================== Alex Fernandez MTS Lucent Technologies No. Andover, MA email: tel: (508)960-6510 ===========================================================

> Hi Terje, > Wow...I think you might be a little upset. Let me just say that I Well, LET me just say that I really appreciate your post. It may be long but I assure you it is equally good! I really mean it. I assure you that your customers love that. It's just that ICR2 shouldn't have been released until it was ready. Well, you have something to prove with NCR 2 and I sincerely hope that everybody at Papyrus and all of your customers will be really happy with the finished product. Point taken. And I know this of course, I am no novice. But Papyrus' problem have been that the very people who set the deadlines have either no concept of how complex a simulator is or, more likely, have too small a budget to play with. I think the latter ring a bell and I hope the Sierra deal got you what you wanted. ... Of course. But some publishers/developers are making it a little too obvious. Really assuring to hear. It is obvious from what you are writing that Papyrus too have learnt a great deal since Xmas 1995. This is splendid. And it is of course necessary given the competition level. Keep it up! Thank you for being so candid. -- --- Terje Wold Johansen --- http://www.ifi.uio.no/~terjjo/ --- "I am your inferior superior." O.W.

Hi Randy, Well, I'd definitely have to disagree with you on a few points. The main one is that Hawaii is just an incremental upgrade. I think this whole system is quite revolutionary. What other game out there does what NASCAR online does? What other game gives you the level of competition and e***ment NASCAR online does, with little or no warping? We actually spent almost two years developing that project, and it's still not done yet. Charlie, Ed, Rich, et all have busted their butts to get that done. Whew...:). I'd also have to disagree about the competition thing, in a sense. The people here who are developing product never, ever want to do just incremental changes. We all want to do the best product we can, whether it's a sequel or a new project. There are those other constraints I mentioned in my other post about what affects our development process. But, we also have to look at why companies release new versions of games every year (can you say EA Sports!). The main reason is that people buy those products in large numbers. As long as people continue to buy these products, companies will continue to develop them. Adam Papyrus

>If you're aware of anything out there in force feedback joysticks which is >actually on the market, please keep us posted ... Thrustmaster has announced their feedback wheel is supposed to ship in October '96. Can we assume Papyrus will be supporting it? Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

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> Joe - we've already done prototypes of force feedback steering, a year ago > with the Exos joystick prototype ... I believe Microsoft recently bought > Exos and plans to release a force feedback joystick of some sort based on > their technology. If there is anything out there which is commercially > viable in force feedback joysticks, I suspect Papyrus will be among the > first wave of companies supporting them ... last time I checked, though, > there wasn't really anything out there on the market yet. > If you're aware of anything out there in force feedback joysticks which is > actually on the market, please keep us posted ... > Charlie Heath > Papyrus Design Group

Please say that you mean force feedback wheelsets. I don't plan to use a joystick ever again. Besides, there are too many people using joysticks already. Both stockcars and indycars have wheels. When they start building them with joysticks, I'll quit. :-) David Martin IVL Series Director

>Please say that you mean force feedback wheelsets. I don't plan to use >a joystick ever again. Besides, there are too many people using >joysticks already. Both stockcars and indycars have wheels. When they >start building them with joysticks, I'll quit. :-) That's what we're talking about. I brought it up because of the Thrustmaster announcement that they will be releasing a force feedback wheel this Fall. Papyrus device support is always excelent it seems, I'm pretty confident they'll support it. Joe

You guys are amazing to me. I can't imagine any other software creator coming on and defending themselves in this manner. You don't owe us any explanation. One would think this is obvious. And it shows, in my opinion, that you guys love what you do. You wouldn't be taking the time to make posts like this one to respond to spurious criticisms. Apology accepted you long-winded jerk ;). I, for one, am grateful for the quality products you produced and I appreciate the amount of effort that must have gone into creating NASCAR. You guys do a helluva job. Keep it up and you'll be getting more of my money. me ------------------------------------------------------------ PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2 59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 ------------------------------------------------------------

>writes >>I can't argue about the timing on the ICR2 patch, it's been a long time >>coming. But they aren't charging for it, and if I'm not mistaken, Papyrus >>has said that people who bought the DOS game can download the Win'95 Since Win 95 is heading toward being more like NT, does this mean that games that directly write to the hardware will be dead under WIn 97 or NT lite or whatever Bill names it? Or does this mean Intel will get a clue and allow for a true graphics sub-system? Or perhaps bus speeds will go up? I downloaded Fury3 from MS's site yesterday and it runs fine under NT 3.51. In fact, it thinks it is running under 95! Does this mean that ICR2 for 95 will run under NT? bryon -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Without the first step, no journey, no matter how long or short, can start and in no way end. Bryon Lape

> That's what we're talking about. I brought it up because of the > Thrustmaster announcement that they will be releasing a force feedback > wheel this Fall. Papyrus device support is always excelent it seems, > I'm pretty confident they'll support it. Well, with Microsoft's aquisition of EXOS, a developer of force feedback technology for NASA and the Department of Defense, force feedback will be easily avaliable to game developers. Microsoft had changed its DirectX SDK giving developers access to the EXOS API (a subset of DirectInput). You can read about the aquisition here: http://www.microsoft.com/corpinfo/press/1996/apr96/exospr.htm -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick

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>>I suppose you think Papyrus OWES this to you right? >>Hack. >>Mike >The way I see it... when you pay for something, the seller does "OWE" >you something. When they start sending me something for free, I'll >start expecting a lot less. Until then, I expect their products to be >as good as the check I use to buy it. >Does 7 months seem like a reasonable amout of time to come up with a >patch? I wonder how Papyrus would feel if it took 7 months for my >check to clear? >Mike

Way to go Mike. It is disgraceful that we have seen no patch for ICR2. Craig ****************************************************************************** Canberra, Australia IVL Toys-R-Us #43 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hoppy1 ******************************************************************************

I hope the patch will not be a WIN 95 version only. I want a patch for my DOS version! Have I misunderstood? I am staying well away from WIN95. Craig. ****************************************************************************** Canberra, Australia IVL Toys-R-Us #43 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hoppy1 ******************************************************************************

On Sun, 2 Jun 1996 11:10:52 +0100, John Wallace

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>writes >>I can't argue about the timing on the ICR2 patch, it's been a long time >>coming. But they aren't charging for it, and if I'm not mistaken, Papyrus >>has said that people who bought the DOS game can download the Win'95 >>version for free, or pay a nominal fee to have it shipped. This for a $50 >>game, how many $500 office suites can you say the same for? >Point taken, but they aren't charging for it because it's fixing all the >things that sholdn't have been wrong in the original release! ICR2 was >brought out in time for Xmas '95 instead of fixing the bugs which would >have caused them to miss the "buying frenzy" season. >On the bright side, it means those bugs have been tracked down and >hopefully won't be in NASCAR 2 when it arrives this Xmas.

Wishful thinking John! ****************************************************************************** Canberra, Australia IVL Toys-R-Us #43 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hoppy1 ******************************************************************************

I think you miss the point of what most of the detractors are saying Mike. I think Papyrus (together with Spectrum Holobyte - Falcon 3.0) have done fantastic jobs with ICR1 NCR1 etc. There were problems in ICR1 and I for one accepted that lessons have to be learnt. That is why I was glad to buy ICR2. In fact NCR1 was a great improvement and still is a fantastic simulation. I can actually be a racing driver in the comfort of my own home! What I object to is the lateness of the ICR2 patch. Nothing more and nothing less. I wrote to Papyrus about problems I was having with NCR1 (before I found the Internet) and received nice and helpful letters and patch disks from Adam Levesque. Great follow on service - and to Australia no less. Spectrum Holobyte sent me 4 patch disks over a twelve month period - great service for an equally complex game. But 7 months and still no ICR2 patch ... very sloppy. Sincerely, Craig ****************************************************************************** Canberra, Australia IVL Toys-R-Us #43 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hoppy1 ******************************************************************************

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>Finally, some of the whiners here ought to be grateful that Papyrus is >putting out the ICR2 Win95 patch free of charge to its ICR2 DOS >customers (unless there has been some change that I haven't heard). >These programmers have been busting their butts for months moving ICR >to a completely new platform, then they give it away to their DOS >customers and don't make any new revenue off of it, except for those >customers who take the plunge once they see a Win95 version is out. >Randy

Common sense comments Randy. You only mentioned a Win95 patch for DOS users. Will there be a DOS patch for DOS users? Craig ****************************************************************************** Canberra, Australia IVL Toys-R-Us #43 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hoppy1 ******************************************************************************

What other game gives you the level of competition No it isn't. It is not yet available in Australia on a local call :-) Thanks Adam. Craig ****************************************************************************** Canberra, Australia IVL Toys-R-Us #43 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hoppy1 ******************************************************************************

Hopkins) sent shooting through ***space: Hate to tell you this, because I know it will draw a very hostile reaction from some of the more volatile members of the ICR faction on here, but with Hawaii and NASCAR's involvement in it, I believe ICR2 is low on the priority totem-pole for Sierra. Don't look for an ICR2 patch until NCR2 ships. -- IWCCCARS Project Coordinator http://www.xmission.com/~iwcc/project.htm Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS

Actually Tony I just received an email from Rick Genter regarding the progress of the ICR2 patch. I was told that as of Friday morning (US time), the gold CD had been sent to the maufacturers, and an online version of the patch should be available in the coming week. The question we all have to ask Sierra is where the hell they intend to post the patch, since the patch (version 1.02) for the ICR2 paintkit was nowhere to be seen on the Sierra/Papyrus web site. Regards Glenn Beaumaris

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> Hate to tell you this, because I know it will draw a very hostile > reaction from some of the more volatile members of the ICR faction on > here, but with Hawaii and NASCAR's involvement in it, I believe ICR2 > is low on the priority totem-pole for Sierra. Don't look for an ICR2 > patch until NCR2 ships. > -- > IWCCCARS Project Coordinator > http://www.xmission.com/~iwcc/project.htm > Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS

The patch is not only to upgrade DOS to Windows 95, but to upgrade DOS to version 1.0.1. The Windows 95 and Macintosh versions went gold on Friday; this week we are putting the patch together to release online. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Don't look for an ICR2 patch until NCR2 ships. <<< This is blatantly false. The patch for IndyCar Racing II is being put together to go online this week. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Sierra On-Line, Inc.

shooting through ***space: I stand corrected. This is the first I've heard of the patch. My mistake. -- IWCCCARS Project Coordinator http://www.xmission.com/~iwcc/project.htm Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS

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>The patch is not only to upgrade DOS to Windows 95, but to upgrade DOS to >version 1.0.1. The Windows 95 and Macintosh versions went gold on Friday; >this week we are putting the patch together to release online. >Rick Genter >Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II >Sierra On-Line, Inc.

You Bewdy Craig ****************************************************************************** Canberra, Australia IVL Toys-R-Us #43 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hoppy1 ******************************************************************************

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> >The patch is not only to upgrade DOS to Windows 95, but to upgrade DOS to > >version 1.0.1. The Windows 95 and Macintosh versions went gold on Friday; > >this week we are putting the patch together to release online. > >Rick Genter > >Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II > >Sierra On-Line, Inc. > You Bewdy > Craig > ****************************************************************************** > Canberra, Australia > IVL Toys-R-Us #43 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports > http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hoppy1 > ******************************************************************************

We don't people check what the subject heading is when posting messages. The subject suggests this post is about Nascar 2, when it is in fact about the patch for ICR2. Please be more careful in future. Chris Fisher