Papy Loads Up Spyware Before The Lights Went Out?

I don't know how many of you have read this but I thought the results when the servers go down might prove to be of interest. http://www.costinsracesims.com/PostNuke/html/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1979 Pete

Pete wrote:

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> I don't know how many of you have read this but I thought the results > when the servers go > down might prove to be of interest. > > http://www.costinsracesims.com/PostNuke/html/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1979 > > > Pete > >

Fiction - collecting and storing data like this is illegal in too many countries. -- Achim http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote in news:2s1oj0F1empnpU1@uni- berlin.de: > > Fiction - collecting and storing data like this is illegal in too many > countries. if they are doing the collecting in America, then what difference do the laws of other countries have on the legality? And I'm sure in the patch Eula there was probably some teeeny tiny mention that they could do whatever the heck they wanted to cuz you opened the box. dh

Dave Henrie wrote:

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> Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote in news:2s1oj0F1empnpU1@uni- > berlin.de: > > >>Fiction - collecting and storing data like this is illegal in too many >>countries. > > > if they are doing the collecting in America, then what difference do the > laws of other countries have on the legality? And I'm sure in the patch > Eula there was probably some teeeny tiny mention that they could do > whatever the heck they wanted to cuz you opened the box. > > dh

since you seem to enjoy 'maybe's' ... <g> maybe collecting data like this is illegal in the US as well? :) Anything in a EULA conflicting with current law would be invalid, btw. -- Achim http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Joachime, Your joking about thinking it is illegal right? maybe misinformed? Just for instance, If it were "Illegal" to the extent that it disuaded anyone from ever doing just what this post said they could do, then why oh why is Spyware tools like AdAware, and the likes, so helpful & sought after? Why does this to you, seem so different than what I can do with a tiny bit of code on the webserver, let alone cookies and such? Oh well. Dont mean to bag on ya. Joachim Trensz enlightened us with:

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> Dave Henrie wrote: >> Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote in news:2s1oj0F1empnpU1@uni- >> berlin.de: >> >> >>> Fiction - collecting and storing data like this is illegal in too >>> many countries. >> >> >> if they are doing the collecting in America, then what difference >> do the laws of other countries have on the legality? And I'm sure >> in the patch Eula there was probably some teeeny tiny mention that >> they could do whatever the heck they wanted to cuz you opened the >> box. dh > since you seem to enjoy 'maybe's' ... <g> maybe collecting data like > this is illegal in the US as well? :) > > Anything in a EULA conflicting with current law would be invalid, btw.

I do know for a fact this was being done as far back as Nascar 1. The results were never published. Right or wrong, legal or not, I would sure love to see who wasn't using a level playing field. Pete "Plowboy2" <stingre.removethis_@yahoo!.removeit> wrote in message news:D3W6d.1787$TY2.1465@lakeread04... > Joachime, > > Your joking about thinking it is illegal right? maybe misinformed? Just > for instance, If it were "Illegal" to the extent that it disuaded anyone > from ever doing just what this post said they could do, then why oh why is > Spyware tools like AdAware, and the likes, so helpful & sought after?Why > does this to you, seem so different than what I can do with a tiny bit of > code on the webserver, let alone cookies and such? > > Oh well. Dont mean to bag on ya.

Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Pete wrote: > > I don't know how many of you have read this but I thought theresults > > when the servers go > > down might prove to be of interest. > > > >http://www.costinsracesims.com/PostNuke/html/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=vi ewtopic&t=1979

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> > > > > > Pete > > > > > > Fiction - collecting and storing data like this is illegal in too many > countries. > > -- > Achim > http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

So is murder, but it still happens <g>

"Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:yiX6d.20500$[email hidden]... > I do know for a fact this was being done as far back as Nascar 1. > The results were never published. Right or wrong, legal or not, I would > sure love to see who wasn't using a level playing field. > > Pete No disrespect, but if you have the facts, lets see them, otherwise this is just an urban legend for all the conspiracy theorists. There are enough of those stupid things out there as it is, no need for more.

I guess my beta testing for several years for Papy and being told by them doesn't account for much. I was at their offices when GPL was still on the drawing boards and had to say nothing for well over a year. I saw a lot and learned much. I also have the greatest respect for several of the people I dealt with. A friend of mine who was being given a tour one day for a magazine article asked if my online postings ever upset them. The answer was no because I said things they couldn't. Oh, I do have witnesses. There were 11 people who weren't named for cheating when they first started monitoring it on Hawaii. I wasn't given the names but when they went to release them the upper management pulled the plug. Only 1 was ever named and only because he admitted to it. I was told "some of the top racers on Hawaii were involved." Some people on here have heard it from me before. At the time some refused to believe that there was any cheating online. I have been witness to and have had several executables(3) in my hands. My info was passed on to the powers that be at the time. Thats why I got out of the whole deal because nothing was done about it. The Papy people I dealt with were enraged to say the least. Now I suppose Papy people could have lied to me but seeing as I was one of the ones that was blowing the whistle it would seem unlikely. Take it any way you want. Pete "Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:E5%6d.462181$[email hidden]... > > > > No disrespect, but if you have the facts, lets see them, otherwise this is > just an urban legend for all the conspiracy theorists. There are enoughof > those stupid things out there as it is, no need for more. > >

JP wrote:

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> Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > >>Pete wrote: >> >>> I don't know how many of you have read this but I thought the > > results > >>>when the servers go >>>down might prove to be of interest. >>> >>> > > http://www.costinsracesims.com/PostNuke/html/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=vi > ewtopic&t=1979 > >>> >>> Pete >>> >>> >> >>Fiction - collecting and storing data like this is illegal in too many >>countries. >> >>-- >>Achim >>http://users.skynet.be/AchimT > > > > So is murder, but it still happens <g> > > >

Hehe, that is true :) -- Achim http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Plowboy2 wrote:

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> Joachime, > > Your joking about thinking it is illegal right? maybe misinformed? Just > for instance, If it were "Illegal" to the extent that it disuaded anyone > from ever doing just what this post said they could do, then why oh why is > Spyware tools like AdAware, and the likes, so helpful & sought after? Why > does this to you, seem so different than what I can do with a tiny bit of > code on the webserver, let alone cookies and such? > > Oh well. Dont mean to bag on ya. > > > > Joachim Trensz enlightened us with: > >>Dave Henrie wrote: >> >>>Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote in news:2s1oj0F1empnpU1@uni- >>>berlin.de: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Fiction - collecting and storing data like this is illegal in too >>>>many countries. >>> >>> >>> if they are doing the collecting in America, then what difference >>>do the laws of other countries have on the legality? And I'm sure >>>in the patch Eula there was probably some teeeny tiny mention that >>>they could do whatever the heck they wanted to cuz you opened the >>>box. dh >> >>since you seem to enjoy 'maybe's' ... <g> maybe collecting data like >>this is illegal in the US as well? :) >> >>Anything in a EULA conflicting with current law would be invalid, btw. > > >

Plowboy, in his original message, Pete asked 'Fiction or true', and I understood that as an invitation to say my opinion, which I did. I do think that any kind of keystroke logging without the user knowing it is extremely illegal everywhere in the world. -- Achim http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

They did it on TEN. I am going to agree with Pete on this one. As far as the server collecting data, you would only have to go as far as the replay to find out (server replay). Now, it is very possible and likely that they coded it into the server code, but didn't make it save to the replay. You also only need to monitor the client packets and their content to see if the server is collecting any other data other than car position. Bill Bollinger www.gsxn.com "Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:E5%6d.462181$[email hidden]...

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> > "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:yiX6d.20500$[email hidden]... >> I do know for a fact this was being done as far back as Nascar 1. >> The results were never published. Right or wrong, legal or not, I would >> sure love to see who wasn't using a level playing field. >> >> Pete > > > No disrespect, but if you have the facts, lets see them, otherwise this is > just an urban legend for all the conspiracy theorists. There are enough > of > those stupid things out there as it is, no need for more. > >

Ok Joachim, as I reread my post, even as I wrote it, I did state that I didnt mean to bag on ya... so will all due respect for your obvious experience & intelligence, and all that, which I really didnt mean to sound as though I was trampoling on, I did ask if you didnt think it more or less can/could happen anywhere that you 1 agree to the terms and licensing agreement and use of thier servers, for a fee or free, that part in EULA where it kind of states in effect "any information collected" which may be used to monitor and improve the service and or software? He didnt ASK if Fiction or true, I think if you reread the post, you will see that he actually made the statement, Believe It Or Not... Joachim Trensz enlightened us with:

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> Plowboy2 wrote: >> Joachime, >> >> Your joking about thinking it is illegal right? maybe misinformed? Just >> for instance, If it were "Illegal" to the extent that it >> disuaded anyone from ever doing just what this post said they could >> do, then why oh why is Spyware tools like AdAware, and the likes, so >> helpful & sought after? Why does this to you, seem so different >> than what I can do with a tiny bit of code on the webserver, let >> alone cookies and such? Oh well. Dont mean to bag on ya. >> >> >> >> Joachim Trensz enlightened us with: >> >>> Dave Henrie wrote: >>> >>>> Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote in news:2s1oj0F1empnpU1@uni- >>>> berlin.de: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Fiction - collecting and storing data like this is illegal in too >>>>> many countries. >>>> >>>> >>>> if they are doing the collecting in America, then what difference >>>> do the laws of other countries have on the legality? And I'm sure >>>> in the patch Eula there was probably some teeeny tiny mention that >>>> they could do whatever the heck they wanted to cuz you opened the >>>> box. dh >>> >>> since you seem to enjoy 'maybe's' ... <g> maybe collecting data like >>> this is illegal in the US as well? :) >>> >>> Anything in a EULA conflicting with current law would be invalid, >>> btw. >> >> >> > Plowboy, in his original message, Pete asked 'Fiction or true', and I > understood that as an invitation to say my opinion, which I did. > > I do think that any kind of keystroke logging without the user knowing > it is extremely illegal everywhere in the world.

Plowboy2 wrote:

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> Ok Joachim, > > as I reread my post, even as I wrote it, I did state that I didnt mean to > bag on ya... so will all due respect for your obvious experience & > intelligence, and all that, which I really didnt mean to sound as though I > was trampoling on, I did ask if you didnt think it more or less can/could > happen anywhere that you 1 agree to the terms and licensing agreement and > use of thier servers, for a fee or free, that part in EULA where it kind of > states in effect "any information collected" which may be used to monitor > and improve the service and or software? > > He didnt ASK if Fiction or true, I think if you reread the post, you will > see that he actually made the statement, Believe It Or Not... > > Joachim Trensz enlightened us with: > >>Plowboy2 wrote: >> >>>Joachime, >>> >>>Your joking about thinking it is illegal right? maybe misinformed? Just >>>for instance, If it were "Illegal" to the extent that it >>>disuaded anyone from ever doing just what this post said they could >>>do, then why oh why is Spyware tools like AdAware, and the likes, so >>>helpful & sought after? Why does this to you, seem so different >>>than what I can do with a tiny bit of code on the webserver, let >>>alone cookies and such? Oh well. Dont mean to bag on ya. >>> >>> >>> >>>Joachim Trensz enlightened us with: >>> >>> >>>>Dave Henrie wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote in news:2s1oj0F1empnpU1@uni- >>>>>berlin.de: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Fiction - collecting and storing data like this is illegal in too >>>>>>many countries. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> if they are doing the collecting in America, then what difference >>>>>do the laws of other countries have on the legality? And I'm sure >>>>>in the patch Eula there was probably some teeeny tiny mention that >>>>>they could do whatever the heck they wanted to cuz you opened the >>>>>box. dh >>>> >>>>since you seem to enjoy 'maybe's' ... <g> maybe collecting data like >>>>this is illegal in the US as well? :) >>>> >>>>Anything in a EULA conflicting with current law would be invalid, >>>>btw. >>> >>> >>> >>Plowboy, in his original message, Pete asked 'Fiction or true', and I >>understood that as an invitation to say my opinion, which I did. >> >>I do think that any kind of keystroke logging without the user knowing >>it is extremely illegal everywhere in the world. > >

Plowboy, both what you're saying and how you're saying came across exactly the way you meant it, and I didn't have any prob with it at all. But thanks for explaining it, your politeness is much appreciated! -- Achim http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

So what you are saying is.... I race in a game and i crash out.. but i decide to stick around and since i am in windows mode racing nascar i decide to do some buying and banking. Now you say they do keyboard collecting. that means if i happend to log into my bank accounts or purchase using credit cards and than watch the end of that race i got crashed out on by toggling between windows task that someone at sierra, papyrus or vivendi actualyl might have my credit card accounts and password. Does that mean if the code is still there in F1RST releases they will in kind be able to gather privacy data. Now i know how they fund these deals.... OUCH... Don Wilshe

Don Wilshe wrote:

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> So what you are saying is.... > > I race in a game and i crash out.. but i decide to stick around and since > i am in windows mode racing nascar i decide to do some buying and banking. > > Now you say they do keyboard collecting. that means if i happend to log > into my bank accounts or purchase using credit cards and than watch the > end of that race i got crashed out on by toggling between windows task > > that someone at sierra, papyrus or vivendi actualyl might have my credit > card accounts and password. > > Does that mean if the code is still there in F1RST releases they will in > kind be able to gather privacy data.

... Well, it's not me who's saying it. Rather, I'm the one who doubts that the article is entirely right about the scope of the checking. -- Achim http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Don Wilshe <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1ey7d.45514$[email hidden]... > So what you are saying is.... > > I race in a game and i crash out.. but i decide to stick around andsince

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> i > am in windows mode racing nascar i decide to do some buying and banking. > > Now you say they do keyboard collecting. that means if i happend to log > into my bank accounts or purchase using credit cards and than watch the > end of that race i got crashed out on by toggling between windows task > > that someone at sierra, papyrus or vivendi actualyl might have my credit > card accounts and password. > > Does that mean if the code is still there in F1RST releases they will in > kind be able to gather > privacy data. > > Now i know how they fund these deals.... > > OUCH... > Don Wilshe

Lol, you of all people worrying about someone hacking your pc is priceless. > >

>"Bill Bollinger" <[email hidden]> wrote > They did it on TEN. I am going to agree with Pete on this one. As far as > the server collecting data That is indeed true. They did it on TEN. They (probably) have done it on their future release after Nascar Racing 2. Completely logical. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

I think I have to agree with Achim.......this is total fiction! The weakness of the argument is not so much that technically it can be done.....sure it can. It's also not in the fact that collecting data such as this is....might or might not be illegal (anywhere). I feel the weakness is in the notion that a recording of a keystroke....or sequence of a keystrokes....is per se, a "guarantee" that this invoked a "cheat routine" program. No way that can be guaranteed or proven. Without that guarantee......the information or "list" from the Sierra servers is useless. A better way than monitoring keystrokes, might have been to inventory all programs running on the client computer in the background. You'd have to have a substantial archive of known programs to check against....but that would seem more logical and a less "burden of proof" that cheating was taking place. I also tend to think there is a relatively narrow range of ways you can cheat in online racing.......doubt it is a broad list of possibilities......but that's just my opinion. Who knows for sure, I know I don't. The only real way to lower the incidence of "cheating" in online racing in my opinion.....to at least a level near zero.....is to institute a national sim driver licensing program and data base for all licensed drivers that league admins can access and check against their "entry list" for their league....and can post updates to....for each driver in their league (as to infractions, problems, sportsmanship issues....what ever). If enough online racing leagues did this......then it would be tough for anyone to join one if they had a "dark record" of previous league racing. This would tend to get the bad apples out of the barrel.....probably the same kind of people who would have a propensity to "cheat" in the first place. It's not a perfect solution....but a good one, I think. Regards, Tom PS: This licensing program would also offer the possibility of varying level licenses.....something like the SCCA has for real-world amateur racing where you start with a "Novice License".....then after so many races you can obtain a "Regional Competition License".....then a "National Competition License"....and then "Pro Competition License"....and finally the highest license of them all, a "Race Instructor's License"...... This would allow leagues to have "like skill" league racing as well....or "Open league racing" could allow drivers who hold say National, Pro or Instructor licenses only. Etc. Online simulated racing would finally be organized much like real-world racing is today.....and that would be huge step forward for our hobby/sport....IMHO. Can you imagine someone spending all the time and energy to run enough events and leagues......over a period of a couple years or maybe more.....to obtain a Pro or Instructor's license......and then doing something in an online racing league....that could cause his license to be revoked...or even suspended? I can't....it's just not logical human behavior and not likely. And, with the national archive of driver's license data base....any reprimand, sanction, suspension or even temporary probation assessment by a league admin....would be recorded there. And, if you can't run in a certified league program without a license......then you have the same situation as in the real world.....the higher you go in the licensing program, the greater is the value of having it and the more you are less inclined to risk losing it.

In article <MYL8d.187975$MQ5.150695@attbi_s52>, [email hidden] says...

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> I think I have to agree with Achim.......this is total fiction! > > The weakness of the argument is not so much that technically it can be > done.....sure it can. It's also not in the fact that collecting data such > as this is....might or might not be illegal (anywhere). > > I feel the weakness is in the notion that a recording of a keystroke....or > sequence of a keystrokes....is per se, a "guarantee" that this invoked a > "cheat routine" program. No way that can be guaranteed or proven. > > Without that guarantee......the information or "list" from the Sierra > servers is useless. > > A better way than monitoring keystrokes, might have been to inventory all > programs running on the client computer in the background. You'd have to > have a substantial archive of known programs to check against....but that > would seem more logical and a less "burden of proof" that cheating was > taking place. I also tend to think there is a relatively narrow range of > ways you can cheat in online racing.......doubt it is a broad list of > possibilities......but that's just my opinion. Who knows for sure, I know I > don't. >

But someone could just rename the program to something else. It would still run and perform the same task, but under a different guise. <snip> -- Pete Ives Remove All_stRESS before sending me an email